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| dstanek | dolphm: so basically with key-mgmt spec we want to implement SAML2 so that we don't need an Apache module? | 13:22 |
|---|---|---|
| claco | mornings | 13:23 |
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| lbragstad | o/ | 13:30 |
| electrocucaracha | morning | 13:30 |
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| dstanek | morning | 13:31 |
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| sigmavirus24 | electrocucaracha: probably has the most memorable name here | 13:38 |
| sigmavirus24 | also, good morning all | 13:38 |
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| electrocucaracha | hahaha at least helps to identify me | 13:38 |
| sigmavirus24 | maybe also no\name\entername (to avoid highlighting them unnecessarily) | 13:38 |
| electrocucaracha | sigmavirus24: I assume that you speak spanish | 13:38 |
| sigmavirus24 | Just a little | 13:39 |
| electrocucaracha | just enough to know what electrocucaracha means haha | 13:39 |
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| sigmavirus24 | Exactly :D | 13:40 |
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| sarafraj | morning | 13:47 |
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| sfinucan | kencjohnston: You here? | 13:59 |
| kencjohnston | sfinucan I am... | 14:03 |
| sfinucan | kencjohnston: Got a few questions about the decision to move to JIRA. Seems you're the person to talk to? This the right forum, if so? | 14:04 |
| kencjohnston | sfinucan Any forum works, and I might not be the best but I can certainly try | 14:04 |
| * kencjohnston pokes at ametts | 14:05 | |
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| ametts | sfinucan: What's on your mind? | 14:05 |
| sfinucan | kencjohnston: Here will do so :) | 14:06 |
| sfinucan | kencjohnston: ametts: I wasn't able to attend the all hands yesterday, but it seems the decisions been made to move from Trello to JIRA for OSIC backlogs | 14:07 |
| sfinucan | While I agree that Trello is probably not scaling well, I really don't think JIRA is the right path | 14:07 |
| sfinucan | Would like to know how "set in stone" this decision is, and if there's any wiggle room on that | 14:08 |
| sfinucan | I can give my reasons/experiences, as necessary :) | 14:09 |
| dolphm | ametts: i was curious what requirements jira fills that trello doesn't - you mentioned a lack of "structure" and something else yesterday (perhaps data insights?), but there are all sorts of trello extensions out there as well | 14:10 |
| dolphm | i have no issues with jira, other than the notion of having to connect to it from a whitelisted IP - that just means i won't keep jira open all day like i do with trello | 14:11 |
| kencjohnston | dolphm sfinucan are there trello extensions for "linking" cards into epics? That has been a pain point | 14:11 |
| kencjohnston | or let me ask a better question - can you point me to some of the helpful extensions you've seen used in the past? | 14:12 |
| dolphm | kencjohnston: like this? https://trello.com/c/wREoDMTL/17-idfedn-identity-federation | 14:12 |
| dolphm | kencjohnston: i've got all the epics cross linked with their component cards | 14:12 |
| ametts | sfinucan: Well one of the reasons we built everything out in Trello is to make sure we could take our time getting the "permanent" tool right. The plan is to work on the best configuration we can muster, and do a pilot test of the new configuration before moving everyone. | 14:12 |
| dolphm | kencjohnston: i'd refer you to b3rnard0, who probably knows what's out there far better than i | 14:13 |
| kencjohnston | dolphm - really? Now I have to talk to b3rnard0? | 14:13 |
| * kencjohnston sighs | 14:13 | |
| dolphm | lol | 14:13 |
| kencjohnston | j/k b3rnard0 | 14:13 |
| sfinucan | kencjohnston: I've not much experience with Trello personally, so I certainly won't defend it or be able to suggest ways to get it fit for purpose | 14:14 |
| * b3rnard0 quietly leaves through fire exit | 14:14 | |
| kencjohnston | dolphm is there a trick/shortcut for easily referencing other cards within cards? You seem to do that prolifically and it would seem time-consuming the way I would do it | 14:14 |
| kencjohnston | which is to go find the URL for thecard I want to reference and paste it in... | 14:15 |
| dolphm | kencjohnston: copy a link to card from your url bar, paste the link to that card anywhere else in plain text | 14:15 |
| sfinucan | I just know that JIRA has...not been pleasant for us devs to use. IMO it tries to be too many things for too many people | 14:16 |
| dolphm | kencjohnston: https://trello.com/c/i81m8RZS/164-trello-card-dependency | 14:16 |
| b3rnard0 | kencjohnston: ametts: sfinucan: i'm in a meeting right now but can definitely help with questions | 14:16 |
| dolphm | sfinucan: that's definitely true, but i also find that true of most project organization tools :P | 14:16 |
| dolphm | there's always more features than anyone needs | 14:16 |
| ametts | sfinucan: In my own experience, I've run the gamut from super heavyweight systems, to extensive use of trello (which became a mess, eventually) -- and then landed on Jira as a happy middle ground. It can be relatively painless if you set it up right. | 14:16 |
| dolphm | which is why people get frustrated and "just build their own," and eventually re-invent the wheel | 14:17 |
| sfinucan | dolphm: Heh, very true | 14:17 |
| sfinucan | ametts: dolphm: Totally true, but JIRA is an issue tracker | 14:17 |
| sfinucan | I've worked with tools like Pivotal Tracker, and found them much better suited to storing feature backlog | 14:18 |
| dolphm | sfinucan: but we're not just tracking issues, we're tracking all sorts of stuff :P | 14:18 |
| ametts | dolphm: true -- the key is to configure it in the way you want to use it, and hide the complexity you don't want or need. | 14:18 |
| sfinucan | dolphm: My point exactly | 14:18 |
| sfinucan | :) | 14:18 |
| dolphm | ametts: kencjohnston: are y'all familiar with storyboard? https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/page/about | 14:18 |
| sfinucan | We have launchpad for issue tracking ;) | 14:18 |
| dolphm | ametts: absolutely, i give jira points in that regard | 14:18 |
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| ametts | Jira does track issues, but also has excellent Agile storyboarding with reporting and parent-child relationships. | 14:19 |
| dolphm | ametts: it's got a TON of complexity but you can hide al ot | 14:19 |
| dolphm | a lot* | 14:19 |
| kencjohnston | dolphm I am, I talked to the Storyboard folks at the Ops Summit | 14:20 |
| ametts | In any case, we'll solicit feedback with a pilot configuration before trying to do a big bang and move everyone. | 14:20 |
| inc0 | dolphm, but jira has a vim plugin;) | 14:20 |
| kencjohnston | sadly, it is not ready for prime time, they don't even have proper install docs last time I checked | 14:20 |
| dstanek | inc0: for what? | 14:21 |
| ametts | Trello is super-convenient for devs, but when you're trying to manage two-dozen projects and 150 people, it lacks a few things. :) | 14:21 |
| dolphm | kencjohnston: that might be the first time i've heard of anyone wanting to deploy it for themselves (and thus looking for install docs) | 14:21 |
| inc0 | https://github.com/mnpk/vim-jira-complete | 14:21 |
| dolphm | kencjohnston: i'm sure we could deploy it if we want to invest in the project -- long term, openstack sorely needs something besides launchpad | 14:21 |
| kencjohnston | dolphm funny story, the install docs, at the time had you install an apt package that wasn't even for their software. whoops. | 14:21 |
| dstanek | inc0: that's an interesting idea | 14:22 |
| kencjohnston | that might be fixed now, when I pointed it out to them there was much embarrassment. | 14:22 |
| dolphm | kencjohnston: i believe that | 14:22 |
| dolphm | dstanek: i knew you'd jump on that | 14:23 |
| inc0 | I myself ended up writing yaml -> jira issue management | 14:23 |
| sfinucan | dolphm: dogfooding _the_ OpenStack issue tracker sounds like a good idea | 14:23 |
| inc0 | we can make common efford and make proper vim plugin;) then it will be as good as we want it to be | 14:23 |
| sfinucan | though maybe a bit too much effort when we need something now :) | 14:23 |
| dolphm | sfinucan: referring to launchpad or storyboard? | 14:23 |
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| sfinucan | dolphm: storyboard | 14:24 |
| kencjohnston | sfinucan the current install docs read - verbatim - "Install StoryBoard. [TODO: More details]" | 14:24 |
| kencjohnston | http://docs.openstack.org/infra/storyboard/install/manual.html | 14:24 |
| sfinucan | kencjohnston: eek. Maybe not yet... | 14:25 |
| kencjohnston | But yes if we want to have a crack team working on the side to setup an instance I'd like to support that effort and use it eventually. | 14:25 |
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| sfinucan | Eh, main point I'm trying to make is to take a long hard look before committing to JIRA | 14:25 |
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| dolphm | just looking at the list of requirements, it needs a mysql server, a wsgi server, and probably somewhere to send mail - deployed! | 14:25 |
| sfinucan | I mean, it's certainly not free and in my experience it's definitely not the best tool for agile-y feature tracking | 14:25 |
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| dolphm | kencjohnston: did you ever get it installed? | 14:26 |
| kencjohnston | dolphm nope. | 14:26 |
| kencjohnston | I didn't try much after my first failure though. | 14:27 |
| kencjohnston | tbf | 14:27 |
| ametts | sfinucan: Will do. And we definitely want you to provide feedback on any pilot or test configurations we put up. | 14:27 |
| sfinucan | ametts: Sure thing | 14:28 |
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| sfinucan | ametts: and is there a path forward if people like me start whining about JIRA? :) | 14:28 |
| kencjohnston | sfinucan ear plugs? :) | 14:29 |
| sfinucan | i.e. other tools you'll consider (again - Pivotal has been the best I've seen, but per dolphm there are many options) | 14:29 |
| sfinucan | :D | 14:29 |
| dolphm | sfinucan: pivotal is a cool name, let's use that :D | 14:30 |
| hockeynut | this is for bug tracking and not a Trello replacement? | 14:30 |
| dolphm | hockeynut: as a trello replacement, yes | 14:30 |
| * hockeynut sheds a tear | 14:30 | |
| sfinucan | hockeynut: Yeah, we have Launchpad for bugs for better or worse | 14:30 |
| dasm | good morning | 14:30 |
| kencjohnston | sfinucan Pivotal link? | 14:31 |
| sfinucan | kencjohnston: http://www.pivotaltracker.com/why-tracker/ | 14:31 |
| ametts | sfinucan: We'll certainly try to get ourselves to the best possible place -- just keep in mind that devs aren't the only stakkeholders.... so any tool not only has to be good for running the boards, but needs good aggregation features, reporting, administration tools, etc. | 14:31 |
| hockeynut | we used this back in the early days of Barbican. Moved to JIRA before I got familiar with it, but figured I'd toss it out there - http://www.scrumdo.com/ | 14:32 |
| dolphm | ametts: how is trello not meeting those needs? | 14:32 |
| sfinucan | kencjohnston: long story short - it's _designed_ for agile workflows, rather than issue tracking w/ agile tacked on | 14:32 |
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| sfinucan | ametts: Totally understand. Balance between what PMs want and what devs want is key | 14:33 |
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| kencjohnston | right, gotcha. I'm not an expert on any of these tools but I do think there is a valid concern that using Jira out of the box is as ametts described too "heavyweight" | 14:34 |
| kencjohnston | sounds like there is also concern that no matter what we try we might not be able to make it "mediumweight" | 14:35 |
| kencjohnston | or is it welterweight? | 14:35 |
| * kencjohnston is obviously not a boxer | 14:35 | |
| sigmavirus24 | since osic is doing sprints, sprint.ly might work better in the workflow | 14:37 |
| sigmavirus24 | it has subtasks too | 14:37 |
| sigmavirus24 | also ways to define tasks as blocked by other tasks | 14:37 |
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| sigmavirus24 | (which last I checked neither PT nor Trello have) | 14:38 |
| kencjohnston | thanks sigmavirus24 | 14:38 |
| * sigmavirus24 is likely irritating b3rnard0 by bringing up his knowledge of "agile" tooling :P | 14:39 | |
| sigmavirus24 | (aka fulfilling his designed role in the #osic channel) | 14:39 |
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| sfinucan | kencjohnston: Exactly. Let's try avoid paying any support contracts til you've got the right tool :P | 14:41 |
| sfinucan | kencjohnston: ametts: ...and thanks for taking the input on board too! :) | 14:41 |
| ametts | dolphm: Between you, me, and the fencepost (and the 109 other people on this channel), I'm not completely unhappy with the way Trello is working for us right now. We don't have everything we want from a reporting standpoint , but I do plan to spend some time with the APIs between now and whatever is next. We're sorta doing the parent-child epic stuff in a kludgey way, which will probably bite us eventually. | 14:43 |
| ametts | sfinucan: certainly! | 14:43 |
| hockeynut | Trello does have a thriving plugin ecosystem as well | 14:44 |
| hockeynut | (and the opportunity to hack something together if we need something more fit to purpose might be a fun hackday project) | 14:44 |
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| ametts | hockeynet: Yes... we should definitely make sure we can't morph into what we want through plugins and the APIs. | 14:45 |
| ametts | And by doing the JIRA stuff on the side, we can have something to compare against and choose what's best for everyone. | 14:46 |
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| b3rnard0 | sfinucan: ametts: i'm definitely interested in helping out where i can. what types of metrics are we looking at tracking? i've been able to extract CFD and cycle time and other metrics directly from Launchpad. (thanks to sigmavirus24) | 14:48 |
| hockeynut | maybe an etherpad is in order to brainstorm what we need? IRC discussions tend to fade into the ether | 14:48 |
| kencjohnston | b3rnard0 any luck getting those metrics from Trello? | 14:49 |
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| b3rnard0 | kencjohnston: yup | 14:49 |
| b3rnard0 | trello, github, and launchpad | 14:49 |
| kencjohnston | hockeynut - not really ether... http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/irclogs/%23osic/ but I get your point | 14:49 |
| sigmavirus24 | hockeynut: do you want user stories to find a metrics tool? | 14:50 |
| sigmavirus24 | That seems silly :P | 14:50 |
| sfinucan | An etherpad would be a good idea | 14:51 |
| b3rnard0 | kencjohnston: i really think there's more value in tracking kanban based metrics to offer the type of forecasting we are looking to have for the various osic projects. and since the bulk of the work happens in launchpad, we may be able to keep trello and still track the things launchpad | 14:51 |
| hockeynut | kencjohnston yes, that's true. I just tend to find IRC as a great starting point for discussions, then we take them elsewhere to fine tune. | 14:51 |
| sfinucan | again - what devs want are very different to what PMs want. Got to satisfy both audiences to get paid ;) | 14:51 |
| rosmaita | sfinucan: vidyo won't let me write in the chat for some reason, just wanted to say: fight the good fight! | 14:53 |
| b3rnard0 | tracking the work in the least disruptive way is always a plus. i've had adoption challenges when you end up creating too many overheads for teams, i.e., having to update Launchpad while having to maintain a second or third tracking tool | 14:54 |
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| hockeynut | b3rnard0 you got the key there "least disruptve" | 14:56 |
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| dstanek | i wish we could treat trello/jira/whatever more like just an organizational/reporting tool rather than a place that needs my attention in addition to community tools | 14:57 |
| hockeynut | we don't want to get to the point where we have "status" as a deliverable :-) | 14:57 |
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| b3rnard0 | hockeynut: +1 | 14:59 |
| sfinucan | +1 | 14:59 |
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| b3rnard0 | if there is good team adoption, trello or whatever tool we use could provide enough status to circumvent "status" reports. we know developer x is working on 2 bugs because those are assigned to him/her, etc. | 15:00 |
| kencjohnston | b3rnard0 +1 | 15:03 |
| hockeynut | + oo | 15:03 |
| spotz | heheh | 15:04 |
| sfinucan | b3rnard0: but if you don't have pretty graphs, does it matter? ;) | 15:04 |
| spotz | b3rnard0 can make pretty graphs! | 15:04 |
| b3rnard0 | sfinucan: my main point is that you can get pretty graphs with very litte disruption :-) | 15:04 |
| hockeynut | b3rnard0 if not, its a SMOP | 15:06 |
| hockeynut | *SMOP = Simple Matter Of Programming | 15:06 |
| b3rnard0 | if we know an osic team x has a specific cycle time that amounts to about 10 bug smashes per week over time, we can use that to forecast future work and scope. we can also use a cfd to determine if things are going hairy or not | 15:07 |
| b3rnard0 | the business side will always want to know what we can do by a certain date so the bulk of that information can be extracted from launchpad activity right now. | 15:08 |
| kencjohnston | b3rnard0 the team works on more than bugs... | 15:10 |
| b3rnard0 | kencjohnston: i realize that, it's just an example | 15:10 |
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| hockeynut | anyone else out there a fan of mind maps? | 15:19 |
| hockeynut | I've been using xmind for a few years and love it (was using MindManager before that). Great for note taking, brainstorming, etc | 15:20 |
| dstanek | hockeynut: xmind is one of my favorite tools | 15:20 |
| dstanek | hockeynut: i use it at conferences to record my notes | 15:21 |
| hockeynut | dstanek EXACTLY! | 15:21 |
| anush | i use xmind too dstanek and hockeynut | 15:24 |
| nortman | I like org-mode in Emacs. | 15:24 |
| hockeynut | I always publicize it to teams I'm working on in the hope that maybe it would be a good collaboration tool, but IIRC the brainstorming mode would require folks to upgrade to Pro (which I find a bargain at $99) | 15:24 |
| nortman | There's something that can generate mind maps from org files. | 15:25 |
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| sfinucan | kencjohnston: b3rnard0: yeah, let's keep bug tracking out of whatever we use | 15:25 |
| anush | nortman emacs FTW | 15:25 |
| lbragstad | dstanek hockeynut how is the free version? | 15:25 |
| dstanek | lbragstad: great | 15:26 |
| lbragstad | dstanek is that what you used or did you pay for it? | 15:26 |
| hockeynut | the basic functionality is all there in the free version.. I paid for the extras (more export options, etc). http://www.xmind.net/pricing/ | 15:27 |
| dstanek | lbragstad: i paid because i wanted presentation mode and the export options, but i don't really use those anymore | 15:27 |
| lbragstad | dstanek I've been trying to find a good tool for taking notes at the summits | 15:27 |
| hockeynut | lbragstad its brilliant for that! | 15:27 |
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| dstanek | for a while i was using mindjet on my android devices because it exported to xmind, but the interface just didn't do it for me | 15:28 |
| pdardeau | putting tools debate aside, i'm most shocked at reading that we're doing agile and sprints | 15:28 |
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| sfinucan | pdardeau: ooh, controversial | 15:29 |
| sfinucan | pdardeau: I've a lot of opinions here. What's your thoughts on the matter | 15:29 |
| pdardeau | given my limited experience with osic and openstack, i don't think it bears any resemblance to agile or sprints | 15:30 |
| pdardeau | maybe it's just cause i have different definitions of agile and sprint | 15:30 |
| sfinucan | pdardeau: Couldn't agree more. It's a pity ankurgupta isn't here | 15:31 |
| pdardeau | truth be told, i believe things are closer to waterfall (in many ways) than to agile | 15:31 |
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| pdardeau | and that waterfall is not necessarily an evil word | 15:31 |
| dstanek | pdardeau: i think sprints can work fine to carve up and execute stories, but the review process is where we may get hung up | 15:32 |
| sfinucan | pdardeau: It's 50:50, IMO. We do a lot of upfront planning, but once the cycle starts we do seem to be quite adaptive | 15:32 |
| anush | pdardeau - given my even limited experience with osic and openstack, doesnt each release get split into 6 week iterative releases until it gets to production | 15:33 |
| anush | certainly not a true agile process | 15:33 |
| sfinucan | dstanek: When we started in OSIC, we did something like Kanban | 15:34 |
| anush | but we seem to build a release iteratively through these 6 week cadences | 15:34 |
| sfinucan | You had a rough idea of what you were working on, and added stories (all bug fixing-related) as they popped up | 15:34 |
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| sfinucan | vs. knowing exactly what you were doing for the next two weeks | 15:34 |
| pdardeau | the process i see is nearly the same as i saw in mainframe development 20 years ago (no joke) | 15:35 |
| sfinucan | IMO, it worked exceptionally well when you were subject to the influence of outside parties | 15:35 |
| pdardeau | without the community interaction | 15:35 |
| hockeynut | there are blueprints which act as a kind of epic but beyond that it really isn't terribly agile | 15:35 |
| sfinucan | from the perspective of reviews (this comment has come in and I need to address it *now*) or customers (customer X need help with Y) | 15:36 |
| sfinucan | scrum, with its two week fixed cycles, really doesn't work by comparison | 15:37 |
| sfinucan | ...though that's just my 2cents anyway | 15:37 |
| pdardeau | anush: btw, i haven't seen 6 week releases in swift | 15:37 |
| b3rnard0 | scrum is very particular methodology that doesn't work for most environments/teams. believe, i've tried! ;-) | 15:38 |
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| sigmavirus24 | kencjohnston: I got the sense that the team didn't work on bugs as part of OSIC FYI | 15:38 |
| kencjohnston | sigmavirus24 uhh.. no we work on bugs | 15:39 |
| anush | http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html pdardeau | 15:39 |
| anush | not sure how close this is followed across the projects | 15:39 |
| sigmavirus24 | kencjohnston: ah, then they just don't get prioritized? I've tried to suggest some in the past and told that the priority list wasn't exactly for bugs | 15:40 |
| sigmavirus24 | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | 15:40 |
| hockeynut | I would think management of an opensource project where contributors are generally on their own schedule would make sticking to *any* methodology a challenge | 15:41 |
| sfinucan | b3rnard0: It works excellently if you own the entire process https://github.com/adobe/brackets/wiki/Release-Notes:-Sprint-38 | 15:41 |
| palendae | hockeynut: Yep, but OSIC doesn't seem to want contributors owning their schedule | 15:42 |
| mwturvey | b3rnard0: I've also see it work really well at Intel, but only when you have the support of management. Totally failed when management tried to define a detailed agile "process" | 15:42 |
| anush | +1 mwturvey - with flow charts that is :-) | 15:43 |
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| mwturvey | anush LOL-- 20-page powerpoint eye charts with detailed flow diagrams, gate keepers, etc. <shudders> | 15:44 |
| b3rnard0 | sfinucan: can we say we'll own the entire process for the osic work? | 15:46 |
| b3rnard0 | flow charts is what makes it agile :-D | 15:46 |
| sfinucan | b3rnard0: not even close. At the very least, we're beholden unto cores/other reviewers | 15:47 |
| sfinucan | In my case, customers w/ support requests also | 15:47 |
| sfinucan | A well-groomed backlog and a good tracker for work planned and in flight will never go amiss though, regardless of what you want to call that | 15:48 |
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| * sfinucan dashes off to a meeting | 15:52 | |
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| sigmavirus24 | hockeynut: that's why so many companies have problems with upstream developers though. This is why Mirantis threatens its employees with termination if a feature isn't completed by end of $cycle | 15:53 |
| hockeynut | interesting... | 15:53 |
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| b3rnard0 | sigmavirus24: +1 | 15:54 |
| sigmavirus24 | The Artifacts work in glance was driven by threats to the employees working on it and their please to the rest of us | 15:54 |
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| dolphm_bot | lbragstad, navidp, rderose, sonus: Keystone standup! | 16:00 |
| dolphm_bot | What are you working on today, and what do you need help with? | 16:00 |
| lbragstad | today I'm working on more capstone deploying tooling. I'm also looking at the remaining issues for getting fernet to be the default for keystone. | 16:01 |
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| dstanek | i am looking at the SAML2 story and the relevant spec | 16:01 |
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| rderose | today I'm pushing up a couple bug patches and finishing setting up my dev environment using Intel's cloud | 16:11 |
| dolphm_bot | Thank you, dstanek, lbragstad, rderose! | 16:15 |
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| kencjohnston | Happy Release Day Everyone! http://www.openstack.org/software/mitaka/ | 16:40 |
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| spotz | woot! | 16:42 |
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| electrocucaracha | \o/ | 17:02 |
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| lbragstad | pumaranikar https://www.openstack.org/summit/austin-2016/summit-schedule/events/6868?goback=1 | 17:57 |
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| dstanek | dolphm: let me know when you have a few mins to discuss a card | 18:19 |
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| sigmavirus24 | dstanek: can I guess the card? Is it the Queen of Hearts/ | 18:34 |
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| dstanek | ace of spades | 18:39 |
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| claco | well now I have to go listen to that album | 18:49 |
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| kencjohnston | claco https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqu132vTl5Y ? | 19:19 |
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