16:00:00 <cdent> #startmeeting api_wg
16:00:00 <openstack> Meeting started Thu Feb  9 16:00:00 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is cdent. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:00:01 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
16:00:04 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'api_wg'
16:00:07 <elmiko> o/
16:00:09 <edleafe> \o
16:00:11 <cdent> #chair cdent elmiko etoews edleafe
16:00:13 <openstack> Current chairs: cdent edleafe elmiko etoews
16:00:21 <cdent> who else has joined us today?
16:00:46 <scottda> hi
16:00:55 <cdent> #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/API-WG#Agenda
16:01:19 <cdent> #topic previous meeting action items
16:01:27 <cdent> #link previous meeting http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/api_wg/2017/api_wg.2017-02-02-16.00.html
16:01:42 <cdent> I was supposed to make sure that ethercalc is up and running. It is
16:01:47 <edleafe> Ethercalc is available
16:01:50 <edleafe> jinx
16:01:58 <cdent> #link https://ethercalc.openstack.org/
16:02:22 <edleafe> I was supposed to talk to cdent about the freeze process
16:02:28 <cdent> edleafe and I were supposed to talk about freezing, but instead etoews told us to RTFM
16:02:39 <edleafe> Yeah, so I read the FM
16:02:48 <cdent> how'd that work out for you?
16:03:14 <edleafe> clear enough
16:03:21 <cdent> \o/
16:03:34 <cdent> other action was for people to comment on boolean stuff. there was a bit of that
16:03:35 <elmiko> nice
16:03:49 <cdent> #topic open mic and new biz
16:04:08 <edleafe> wait
16:04:17 <edleafe> I didn't see any comments
16:04:22 <edleafe> just some +1s
16:04:33 <cdent> #undo
16:04:34 <openstack> Removing item from minutes: #topic open mic and new biz
16:04:46 <edleafe> So I just take that as agreement with the guideline as written?
16:04:54 <cdent> That seems to be the case
16:04:58 <edleafe> And disagreement with mordred's angle?
16:05:21 <mordred> I agree with all right-thinking thoughts
16:05:38 <edleafe> mordred: well, I'm a leftist, so...
16:05:39 <edleafe> :)
16:05:55 <mordred> edleafe: four legs good, two legs bad
16:05:59 <cdent> I think mordred "normalizing" things is scary
16:06:15 <mordred> heh.
16:06:19 <cdent> twitter told me I'm not supposed to normalize
16:06:22 <elmiko> lol
16:06:36 <edleafe> Seeing "normal" and "mordred" in the same sentence is scary
16:06:37 <mordred> cdent: I don't know if you've seen shade/_normalize.py or not ...
16:07:18 <cdent> mordred: oh dear god
16:07:21 <mordred> cdent: :)
16:07:46 * mordred hides from cdent now
16:08:04 <cdent> https://3.imimg.com/data3/GA/JK/MY-9964489/eye-washer-250x250.jpg
16:08:29 <edleafe> :)
16:09:04 <mordred> cdent, edleafe: actually, honestly, I'd love ot sit down at some point and talk about the normalization we do there and see what, if any of it, is stuff that can/should be pushed back into the apis themselves
16:09:15 <cdent> I don't have a strong opinion on what should be done other than: probably best to stick with the thing that requires the least change and once we have that, get everyone to do it
16:09:24 <cdent> mordred++
16:09:55 <edleafe> TIL about python munch
16:09:58 <cdent> edleafe: can we leave this in your capable brain?
16:10:22 <edleafe> munch looks a lot like my old dotdict module
16:10:45 <edleafe> cdent: sure, although 'capable' is a bit of a stretch
16:10:55 <cdent> how about "available"?
16:11:00 <edleafe> better
16:11:29 <cdent> ready to move on?
16:11:34 <edleafe> yup
16:11:39 <cdent> #topic open mic and new biz
16:11:56 <cdent> nada on the agenda, but I wanted to mention that I finally pushed the compatibility guideline draft:  #topic open mic and new biz
16:11:57 <cdent> whoops
16:12:03 <cdent> #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/421846/
16:12:16 <edleafe> copy/paste is hard
16:12:43 <cdent> elmiko: despite your +1 I was hoping to resolve the "unresolved questions" secdtion before making it a goer
16:13:05 <elmiko> cdent: fair, i was just reacting to my initial read
16:13:35 <edleafe> elmiko: I scrapped several iterations of comments on that one
16:13:46 <edleafe> Finally decided I better write *something*
16:13:48 <cdent> Also based on "secdtion" there are probably some typos. But yeah, thanks for having a positive reaction.
16:14:11 <elmiko> it makes sense to me, i did not realize that the outstanding questions were actually a blocker here
16:14:14 <edleafe> I'll have another go at that later today
16:14:33 <cdent> I should probably have made it more clear, but I was worn out...
16:14:46 <elmiko> no worries, it's a good effort imo
16:14:51 <cdent> mordred: get your dibs in on that stuff early if you've got the chance
16:15:33 <cdent> any other open mic?
16:16:26 * edleafe twiddles his thumbs
16:17:17 <cdent> scottda: wanted to say out loud: thanks for your continued reliable attendance. please feel free to dive in on the guidelines, finding and fixing issues/typos, or take some bugs.
16:17:45 <scottda> cdent: sure, I try to have a look at that stuff..
16:18:02 <cdent> and at some point we should have more chat about your experiences with the concepts of "versions" as you had some good comments last week
16:18:18 <cdent> #topic guidelines
16:18:27 <scottda> cdent: Yeah, I've continued battles with cinder team re: versions
16:18:36 <cdent> #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/api-wg,n,z
16:19:11 <cdent> scottda: i tried to empahsize the value of versions in the compatibilty guideline
16:19:28 <cdent> on the guidelines:
16:19:41 <cdent> edleafe: we could freeze the boolean thing, but it's not clear if we want to?
16:19:58 <cdent> (the others are not ready)
16:20:15 <edleafe> cdent: why wouldn't we? We've given lots of opportunity for feedback
16:20:34 <edleafe> I don't see any strong dissent
16:21:05 <cdent> edleafe: oh, only because of the curiosity about mordred's comments above
16:21:19 * cdent freezes
16:22:07 * edleafe hands cdent a sweater
16:22:16 <elmiko> ha!
16:22:36 <cdent> smh
16:23:00 <cdent> oka
16:23:01 <cdent> y
16:23:04 <edleafe> You are obviously shivering
16:23:16 <edleafe> "This guidelines is being frozen..."
16:23:17 <cdent> clearly
16:23:21 <cdent> sigh
16:23:25 <edleafe> :)
16:23:35 * edleafe is glad that he never has typos
16:23:36 <cdent> It's been much worse the past month or so
16:23:52 <cdent> it could very well be cold, my fingers not operating properly
16:24:12 <cdent> Any other guideline commentary?
16:24:49 <cdent> #topic bug review
16:25:02 <cdent> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-api-wg
16:25:18 <cdent> Nothing new or changed since last week
16:26:00 <cdent> #topic weekly newsletter
16:26:08 <cdent> #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/api-wg-newsletter
16:26:15 <cdent> any volunteers to be the author this week?
16:26:51 * edleafe pretends not to have heard that
16:26:52 <elmiko> i suppose i can take it
16:26:54 <cdent> *crickets*
16:27:19 <cdent> Nobody has to take it if they don't want, it doesn't bother me to do it, it just seems...I'm not sure what
16:27:52 <elmiko> i just thought i'd offer, if you want a break
16:28:05 <cdent> elmiko: go for it, a break would be lovely
16:28:11 <elmiko> k
16:28:14 <cdent> thanks
16:28:53 <cdent> Since we have loads of time left we can either call it early, or gossip about some open topic, or schmooze about anything that might happen at the PTG. Preferences?
16:29:24 <elmiko> i'm curious what folks think about the PTG?
16:29:30 <edleafe> Oh, did you see what etoews was wearing yesterday? Scandalous!!
16:29:35 <elmiko> lol
16:29:53 <edleafe> elmiko: think about? In what context?
16:30:08 <elmiko> good idea, bad idea, excited to attend, etc?
16:30:08 <scottda> Sorry, elmiko I've vowed to quit griping about the PTG. At least until the week of...
16:30:15 <elmiko> haha
16:30:28 <edleafe> I love the concept, but not so sure about the execution
16:30:46 <elmiko> i haven't kept up-to-date, what's the issue with execution?
16:30:58 <cdent> I'd mirror what edleafe has said, but am taking a wait and see.
16:31:03 <edleafe> It wasn't presented properly
16:31:21 <scottda> Biggest issue I have is around the idea of some of us getting together to talk about consistent versioned endpoints, for example....
16:31:30 <edleafe> Many companies are still thinking it's a midcycle-like event, and thus attendance is optional
16:31:31 <scottda> Since we cannot schedule a time and place for it.
16:31:44 <scottda> I'm  concerned with how to get interested people into the room at the same time.
16:31:55 <elmiko> scottda: good point
16:31:58 <elmiko> edleafe: ugh...
16:32:28 <edleafe> I have the feeling that the Pike cycle will have a lot of devs feeling left out of the loop
16:32:30 <scottda> And if I cannot broadcast that time/place to the Cinder team, they may not attend, and therefore we might lack buy-in on any changes cinder needs to do.
16:32:33 <cdent> scottda: that's what the ethercalcis for
16:32:51 <cdent> and why we wanted to be sure it was a thing that existed beforehand
16:33:14 <cdent> so probably the thing do is get with ttx to see if the space management spreadsheet exists yet
16:33:17 <edleafe> Is there an ethercalc for the ptg yet?
16:33:17 <scottda> cdent: Sorry, can you point me to that?
16:33:33 <edleafe> https://ethercalc.openstack.org/
16:33:40 <cdent> ttx: are there active ethercal pages for the ptg yet?
16:33:44 <scottda> thx
16:33:54 <cdent> (I think ttx is at snowcamp today, so that's probably for naught)
16:35:31 <cdent> But yeah, you're right scottda: for cross project stuff it is a mystery for how to get people coordinated to participate
16:36:00 <elmiko> yeah, cross-project seems like a big issue with the new format
16:36:06 <cdent> I think there's hope that it will "just happen" but with the numbers of people involved and the quantity of things that need to happen, unclear if it will work
16:36:08 <elmiko> is the PTG in a single location?
16:36:09 <edleafe> scottda: how about a post to the ML proposing the version meeting
16:36:24 <cdent> elmiko: it's in a single hotel
16:36:25 <edleafe> elmiko: yes - Atlanta, GA
16:36:51 <scottda> edleafe: I could. I guess I'd rather wait a bit and see if there's something like a PTG ethercalc that could be filled in by all the cross-project teams/meetings...
16:37:04 <clarkb> cdent: re ethercalc its good to go now, backed up redis db and everything. But not sure of ttx's organizational plans around it
16:37:06 <edleafe> scottda: sure, that makes sense
16:37:12 <cdent> thanks clarkb
16:37:13 <scottda> I feel that there needs to be some kind of central coordination.
16:37:20 <scottda> But I'm kinda funny that way.
16:37:44 <edleafe> scottda: well, there's nothing that says that you can't be that coordination
16:37:59 <edleafe> easier to ask forgiveness than permission
16:38:02 <edleafe> :)
16:38:10 <scottda> edleafe: Yes there is. It's my inner voice that says "Stop overextending yourself"
16:38:53 * edleafe looks for medication to quiet those voices
16:39:09 <scottda> ha. My doctor has me on one called "beer"
16:39:21 <scottda> But I don't get my dosage until 6:00 PM
16:39:37 <cdent> scottda: could you get me a referal to your doc
16:39:57 <scottda> ha
16:40:05 <edleafe> scottda: http://images.ubercomments.com/1/414315293628d01382.jpg
16:40:16 <elmiko> cdent, edleafe, how's that look https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/api-wg-newsletter
16:40:24 * cdent reads
16:40:38 * edleafe reads over cdent's shoulder
16:41:13 <edleafe> there was a newly frozen guideline
16:41:28 <edleafe> ah, that's fixed
16:41:33 <elmiko> oops, thanks!
16:41:44 <cdent> im done making changes, deferes to edleafe
16:41:59 <cdent> jesus. this is why I didn't want to do the newsletter today. can't spell
16:42:21 <edleafe> My only thing is that it looks kinda odd to start link numbering at [4] and [5]
16:42:26 <edleafe> Other than that...
16:42:41 <elmiko> yeah, agreed
16:42:43 <cdent> edleafe: that's part of our eccentric charm
16:42:47 <elmiko> lol
16:43:00 <cdent> we don't renumber the footnotes below, we just use them in different orderes
16:43:04 <edleafe> then let's use random numbers
16:43:09 <edleafe> much more charming
16:43:12 <cdent> we should use uuids
16:43:16 <elmiko> +1
16:43:28 <cdent> or sha2 hashes of the footnotes
16:43:35 <cdent> content addressable footnotes
16:44:00 <edleafe> If we did that, I don't think anyone would trust our guidance on API desing
16:44:05 <edleafe> design, even
16:44:57 <cdent> I'm contagious!
16:45:14 <edleafe> oh, c'mon - I'm not *that* bad!
16:45:25 <cdent> It starts out light
16:45:29 <cdent> but over time gets worse
16:45:31 <cdent> I'm sorry
16:45:48 <cdent> anyway
16:45:59 <cdent> I think we reached the end of usefulness on this fine little meeting, yes
16:46:10 <elmiko> fair
16:46:27 <cdent> i say we call it? second?
16:46:41 <elmiko> +1
16:46:43 <edleafe> o/
16:46:53 <cdent> cool, thanks everyone for coming, it's been fun
16:46:56 <cdent> #endmeeting