00:01:45 <ekcs> #startmeeting congressteammeeting
00:01:46 <openstack> Meeting started Thu Jun  1 00:01:45 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is ekcs. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
00:01:47 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
00:01:49 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'congressteammeeting'
00:02:03 <ekcs> Hi all!
00:02:13 <ekcs> hope everyone's having a great week.
00:02:23 <ekcs> list of topics are here as usual. https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/congress-meeting-topics
00:08:14 <thinrichs> Hi all.  Sorry I'm late
00:09:46 <ekcs> hi thinrichs !
00:10:20 <thinrichs> ekcs: hi
00:10:56 <ekcs> no one else has joined, so it may be just you and me today. ramineni let me know she won't be joining today.
00:11:03 <thinrichs> ok
00:12:38 <ekcs> anyway I don't have much to day other than just announcements about the policy library tasks and policy UI sketch I sent out over ML and seeing if there is any questions/comments/discussion.
00:13:06 <thinrichs> I don't have much either.  We could look through the UI sketch.  I haven't done that yet
00:13:06 <ekcs> but if it's just you and me we could talk about whatever makes sense and call it a meeting.
00:13:47 <ekcs> ok.
00:13:55 <ekcs> #topic policy monitoring UI
00:13:59 <ekcs> #link https://wireframepro.mockflow.com/view/congress-policy-monitor
00:15:08 <ekcs> based on some of the discussion at PTG, the minimal thing to display on the main panel would be 1. number of policies violated. and 2. some info about the violations
00:16:10 <ekcs> So I put those up. and each of the violated policies would be a link to the policy page that already exists, modified to include a section that shows the violation table. see "per policy page" on mockflow
00:17:14 <ekcs> In addition to this most basic panel, other things that have been suggested are:
00:17:15 <ekcs> - show violations that have been resolved by remediation.
00:17:41 <ekcs> - show which data sources are involved in causing each policy violation
00:18:04 <ekcs> - show a count of how "big" the violation is perhaps by number of tuples in the violation table.
00:19:09 <thinrichs> The per-policy page makes sense
00:19:16 <thinrichs> I feel like we want more info on the main page
00:20:20 <ekcs> great any thoughts on what more info to give?
00:20:30 <thinrichs> We'd need to add a log somewhere to show violations resolved by remediation
00:20:41 <thinrichs> datasources involved is info we have
00:20:56 <thinrichs> The count of violations for each policy makes sense
00:21:16 <thinrichs> Maybe in that row
00:21:35 <thinrichs> If we had multiple severities of violations, we could display those too.  error(), warning(), etc.
00:22:27 <ekcs> hmm interesting.
00:22:53 <thinrichs> I wonder if having each violation on that front-page would be valuable.  Maybe we could hide them until the user clicks on something
00:22:55 <ekcs> set aside several different "violation tables" to indicate severity to the UI.
00:25:41 <ekcs> ok I updated it. how about something like this?
00:26:03 <ekcs> with additional color coding based on presence of error/warning
00:26:46 <ekcs> I didn't understand the last thing you said about whether to have each violation on that front page. by each violation do you mean each policy violated or each tuple in the violation table?
00:27:09 <masahito> hi! sorry, late...
00:27:15 <thinrichs> each tuple
00:27:37 <ekcs> hi masahito . we're talking about policy monitoring UI.
00:27:41 <ekcs> https://wireframepro.mockflow.com/view/congress-policy-monitor
00:28:11 <masahito> ekcs: got it.
00:28:35 <ekcs> thinrichs, maybe displaying the first 1-2 is helpful.
00:28:51 <ekcs> but probably not more.
00:30:24 <thinrichs> If I wanted to see any (of a given severity), I'd want to see them all (up to pagination requirements)
00:30:58 <thinrichs> So if we think showing all the errors isn't a good idea, I'd say we leave them as is.
00:31:57 <ekcs> hmm ok.
00:32:26 <ekcs> you mentioned data sources involved. I wanted to ask about the state of the "explanation" facility.
00:33:17 <ekcs> at some point we can implement a general explanation UI that a user can drill down to see the data that feed into deriving each tuple.
00:33:52 <ekcs> but I haven't looked at the code deeply to see how far or close we are from that.
00:34:51 <thinrichs> There's no UI.
00:34:59 <thinrichs> It'll give you the trace
00:35:11 <thinrichs> I think there's a —trace option from the CLI
00:35:47 <ekcs> ok so it's just UI work to query and display that, but the infrastructure is there.
00:35:57 <ekcs> thanks.
00:36:23 <ekcs> how does it handle multiple derivations?
00:37:29 <thinrichs> Redos
00:37:36 <thinrichs> Call, Exit, Redo
00:37:39 <ekcs> masahito, any thoughts on the UI sketches? feel free to jump in  = )
00:37:41 <thinrichs> You'll want to look at the trace
00:37:49 <thinrichs> I don't have one handy
00:38:00 <thinrichs> Returns as text
00:38:03 <ekcs> oh ok I get it. I've seen it before.
00:38:16 <thinrichs> So to push into the UI, we'd need to change the output to produce <div> or the like
00:39:04 <ekcs> do you see any major challenge to enabling user to click on any tuple to drill down into explanation?
00:39:14 <masahito> ekcs: do you think users can customize violated tables except error and warning
00:39:34 <ekcs> masahito, totally open to our design now. what would you suggest?
00:40:38 <ekcs> do you think deployers/ops need a customizable set of types of violations? or just need more than two but can use a fixed set? or these two are enough?
00:40:57 <masahito> I thinkg table names which users want to see in main panel are different depending on the user's demands.
00:42:25 <ekcs> got it. is to more about the name or about the levels?
00:42:29 <masahito> the example policies represents 'errors' status of the cloud.
00:42:57 <masahito> it's more about name.
00:43:30 <ekcs> I see so you're thinking about having existing policy that says `errors` instead of `error` but you want the UI to pick it up.
00:44:46 <masahito> for instance, when I want to write a policy like, 'well maintained instances', there could be 'maintained' table and 'not maintained' table
00:45:21 <ekcs> one way to handle that is to have add a special table in each policy: something like violation_tables(name, severity)
00:45:52 <ekcs> but another way to handle that is to add an additional rule: like warning(...) :- not_maintained(...)
00:47:06 <masahito> right
00:47:08 <ekcs> either way something needs to be added to the policy, and I feel the second way is more straightforward because it doesn't introduce more concept into the system. what do you think?
00:48:25 <masahito> if the concept of monitoring panel is to use the panel instead of monitor lamp, seconds one makes sense.
00:49:39 <ekcs> sorry I'm unfamiliar with monitor lamp.
00:50:16 <masahito> it's a tool usually operators use to monitor system
00:50:17 <ekcs> and so if we go with a fixed set of violation tables, how many levels do you feel we need?
00:50:49 <ekcs> got it.
00:50:57 <ekcs> masahito: if the concept of monitoring panel is to use the panel instead of monitor lamp, seconds one makes sense.
00:51:15 <ekcs> so what's the scenario where second one doesn't make sense?
00:51:18 <ekcs> just so we consider it.
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00:53:10 <masahito> oops, long url...
00:54:12 <ekcs> haha can you use url shortener?
00:54:22 <ekcs> like https://is.gd
00:55:13 <masahito> page 8 in the slide. http://slideplayer.com/slide/10584478/
00:55:58 <masahito> Mapping all tables to some level tables, errors, warnings and so one is useful for monitoring operations.
00:57:19 <masahito> on the other hands, if the administrators of the cloud want to get more informations from the panel, the levels have less information.
00:58:24 <masahito> like the admins are needed to react the error right now or they can wait to handle the error by tomorrow.
00:59:59 <masahito> but now that I'm thinking about it, the panel is a main panel and mapping some events to 2 or 3 levels is nice for operations.
01:00:41 <ekcs> hmm ok.
01:01:01 <ekcs> well we're out of time. continue on web tools and next time then.
01:01:15 <ekcs> thanks for bringing up more ops perspective!
01:01:18 <ekcs> thanks all!
01:01:27 <ekcs> #endmeeting