21:01:46 <dhellmann> #startmeeting cross-project
21:01:46 <openstack> Meeting started Tue Jun  2 21:01:46 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is dhellmann. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:01:47 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
21:01:49 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'cross_project'
21:01:49 <devananda> \o
21:01:51 <dhellmann> courtesy ping PTLs: adrian_otto boris-42 bswartz david-lyle devananda dims dtroyer emilienm flaper87 gordc hyakuhei isviridov
21:01:51 <dhellmann> courtesy ping PTLs: j^2 jeblair johnthetubaguy kiall loquacities mestery morganfainberg mtreinish nikhil_k notmyname rakhmerov
21:01:51 <dhellmann> courtesy ping PTLs: redrobot SergeyLukjanov slagle SlickNik smelikyan stevebaker thingee thinrichs ttx
21:01:54 <ttx> o/
21:01:56 <thingee> o/
21:01:57 <david-lyle> o/
21:01:57 <mestery> o/
21:01:58 <elmiko> o/
21:02:00 <dtroyer> o/
21:02:00 <redrobot> o/
21:02:00 <tmcpeak> o/
21:02:00 <stevebaker> \o
21:02:02 <sdague> o/
21:02:03 <fungi> awesome
21:02:03 <j^2> hi!
21:02:05 <loquacities> o/
21:02:05 <boris-42> dhellmann: hi there
21:02:09 <bknudson> yo
21:02:14 <edleafe> o/
21:02:19 <ttx> wow, dhellmann is much more fficient at gathering the troops than I am.
21:02:21 <boris-42> how is going guys?
21:02:25 <johnthetubaguy> o/
21:02:28 <SlickNik> o/
21:03:39 <dhellmann> ttx: I should have added the tc, too, I guess
21:03:39 <dhellmann> We have some changes to the structure of this meeting, which we're putting into place starting this week.
21:03:39 <dhellmann> ttx described them in his announcement email, but I'll mention them again as we go along.
21:03:39 <ttx> they should still be around
21:03:39 <dhellmann> we have a relatively brief agenda today
21:03:39 <dhellmann> #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/CrossProjectMeeting
21:03:39 <dhellmann> #topic Horizontal teams announcements
21:03:39 <flaper87> o/
21:03:39 <nikhil_k> o/
21:03:39 <ttx> On the release side...
21:03:39 <dhellmann> We'll start out each week with announcements from cross-project teams (oslo, docs, infra, release, etc.).
21:03:39 <dhellmann> We usually want mailing list posts for these items, too, but this slot in the meeting is a good place to raise awareness of upcoming work that might affect other projects, or new initiatives.
21:03:39 <dhellmann> So, does anyone have anything to report this week?
21:03:39 <ttx> We are actively switching to "hands-off" tracking
21:03:39 * dhellmann pastes slower than ttx types
21:03:39 <boris-42> dhellmann: heh
21:03:46 <ttx> i.e. reporting on what gets done rather than trying to predict
21:03:51 <boris-42> dhellmann: I am preparing email with info about scaling up core teams=)
21:03:59 <ttx> that let us overhaul our 1:1 sync system and replace it with office hours
21:04:06 <dhellmann> boris-42: I look forward to reading that
21:04:07 <ttx> ...and nobody showed up today (that is fine)
21:04:23 <ttx> dhellmann: did you get visits during your shift ?
21:04:25 * dhellmann was busy trying to unbreak ironic anyway
21:04:26 <jungleboyj> o/
21:04:30 <ttx> hah
21:04:31 <dhellmann> ttx: no, not today
21:04:35 <stevebaker> ttx: what does office hours mean?
21:04:48 <ttx> anyway, I'll work on the new version of http://status.openstack.org/release/
21:04:58 <dhellmann> stevebaker: if you stop by #openstack-relmgr-office at least one member of the release management team will be present to answer questions
21:05:04 <dhellmann> or otherwise chat
21:05:07 <ttx> stevebaker: we maintain two time slots at 0800-1000 UTC and 1800-2000 UTC
21:05:14 <stevebaker> I see, sounds good
21:05:31 <dhellmann> during the release period, we'll use those time slots for syncing up as well, so they'll be more important around then
21:05:34 <ttx> so if you have anything to discuss you can reach us there (except when we won't be around exceptionally)
21:05:56 <sdague> so out of the QA team - there is some experimental work up to support external plugins in grenade - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/185050/ - I'm hoping that will let more projects in the big tent use the upgrade testing infrastructure
21:05:56 <ttx> and yes, PTls are expected to report during office hours on milestone or release weeks
21:06:06 <ttx> PTLs or their release liaisons obviously
21:06:12 <ttx> </relmgt>
21:06:15 <dhellmann> from oslo, I know we have one critical bug in oslo.messaging which we're working on landing for the ironic and tripleo teams -- we have a gate core dump issue we're working around
21:06:16 <sdague> I think we're going to try to get heat and ironic to be our test cases for if that works
21:07:01 <stevebaker> sdague: is someone reworking the heat patch to be a plugin?
21:07:28 <sdague> stevebaker: yeh, I was talking with ... sirushti this morning about it
21:07:54 <stevebaker> sdague: ok, i'll track progress on that
21:07:54 <sdague> I was out last week, so still digging back out
21:08:30 <sdague> we talked through it briefly, I'll hopefully be able to provide a bit more guidance next week once I get a few things off my plate
21:08:47 <dhellmann> if no other cross-project teams have announcements, we'll move on...
21:08:48 <sdague> I'd like to get that all done and in by L1
21:08:57 <loquacities> docs are starting on RST conversion
21:09:05 <sdague> </qa>
21:09:05 <redrobot> sdague barbican is also interested in Grenade testing
21:09:18 <dhellmann> loquacities: nice!
21:09:29 <sdague> redrobot: cool, pop into #openstack-qa and hopefully we can help get you rolling with external plugin support as well
21:09:32 <loquacities> we're doing install guide, cloud admin guide, and ha guide this time around
21:09:58 <j^2> loquacities: dang, that’s great news!
21:10:05 <loquacities> :)
21:10:20 <fungi> oh, and your manuals finally branched for kilo
21:10:32 <loquacities> yep yep
21:10:34 <elmiko> the api-wg has a guideline up for our merge process that involves our process for announcing upcoming guidelines, #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/186836/
21:11:04 <boris-42> sdague: btw the another way for upgrade/HA testing will be multiscenario load support in Rally
21:11:07 <dhellmann> loquacities: the that plugin documentation tool I mentioned at the summit has landed in stevedore: http://docs.openstack.org/developer/stevedore/sphinxext.html
21:11:17 <boris-42> sdague: so we can call grenade + load simultaneously
21:11:22 <loquacities> neat!
21:11:55 <boris-42> sdague: and ensure that it actually works (like nova supports nova downtime upgrades) and so on
21:12:46 <dhellmann> ok, let's move on
21:12:51 <dhellmann> #topic Update the API WG merge process for Liberty
21:13:03 <dhellmann> #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/186836/
21:13:03 <dhellmann> etoews, do you want to tell us about this?
21:13:04 <elmiko> oh, sorry i jumped the gun on that one
21:13:12 <elmiko> etoews is away, i'm standing in for him
21:13:19 <dhellmann> ah, hi, elmiko
21:13:38 <elmiko> we basically, have a better defined process for how we will migrate proposed guidelines from the voting process into the "for real" guidelines
21:14:06 <elmiko> it involves a freeze period, once we are happy, and then alerting the PTL/CPL about the changes for a final period of voting
21:14:21 <elmiko> this will be announced on the ML, and will be 1 week of freeze
21:14:39 <elmiko> hopefully, we'll get feedback from interested parties if things need to change or are unacceptable
21:14:53 <elmiko> and once the freeze is over, we will merge the guidelines into our official repo
21:15:19 <elmiko> there might be a few minor details i missed, but i would love if anyone has comments on the process #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/186836/
21:15:21 <dhellmann> would it be useful to add those sorts of things to the agenda for this meeting, too?
21:15:33 <elmiko> hmm
21:15:38 <dhellmann> at least to raise awareness, even if we don't discuss them here
21:15:57 <elmiko> yea, that's a good idea. we could certainly list the reviews that are in freeze currently during the meeting
21:16:10 <dhellmann> ok
21:16:30 <dhellmann> does anyone have questions for elmiko?
21:17:15 <dhellmann> ok, then
21:17:19 <dhellmann> #topic Vertical teams announcements
21:17:19 <dhellmann> This is another recurring section of the meeting, meant to let vertical teams make announcements.
21:17:19 <dhellmann> Again, we want to have mailing list posts for topics that are mentioned here, but consider this another means of communication.
21:17:19 <dhellmann> So, does anyone have any big plans they need/want to share this week?
21:17:20 <elmiko> thanks
21:17:28 <dhellmann> thanks, elmiko
21:18:02 <dhellmann> a good example here is the ironic team's plan to move to intermediate releases
21:19:42 <dhellmann> it's early in the cycle, so there may not be much to talk about, yet
21:19:42 <sdague> so... not an announcement, but a thing we should probably get cross team socialized more
21:19:42 <jungleboyj> sdague: ++
21:19:42 <sdague> the dynamic policy ideas out of keystone are really cool, but have a lot of implications
21:19:43 <dhellmann> ah, yeah, I saw both of those email threads cross in the ether just before the meeting
21:19:43 <sdague> I had some good chats with jamielenox and morganfainberg at summit, but I think we should get that into a more cross project discussion mode sooner rather than later
21:19:49 <j^2> this might be relevant, but the Chef team has discovered upstream packaging bugs with libvirt with 14.04 and the RDO c7 repo breaking due to an API issue, has anyone else seen this with the distress?
21:19:51 <sdague> because it's more than just a keystone thing
21:19:57 <redrobot> dhellmann what is a "vertical" team?
21:20:01 <morganfainberg> sdague: ++
21:20:01 <sdague> it's going to impact the whole world
21:20:04 <dhellmann> morganfainberg, ayoung-meeting: what's the plan to get the policy discussion stuff synced up with the other projects?
21:20:21 <j^2> s/distress/issue
21:20:24 <johnthetubaguy> +1 has an interesting chat about policy, and its almost perfect timing for nova given the v2.1 changes, and having policy in flux at the moment
21:20:24 <fungi> redrobot: anything that's not a "horizontal" team
21:20:32 <morganfainberg> dhellmann: ayoung-meeting just sent a ML topic to setup a x-project and/or subteam
21:20:40 <dhellmann> redrobot: docs, infra, oslo, release, etc. are "cross project" but nova, cinder, etc. are vertical -- make sense?
21:20:50 <sdague> morganfainberg: ok, cool, I'm a couple hours delayed on that
21:20:50 <morganfainberg> dhellmann: this was my recommendation so we can get more than keystone involved.
21:20:54 <redrobot> dhellmann fungi ack
21:21:11 <morganfainberg> sdague: yeah :) that was from the keystone meeting earlier today.
21:21:12 <dhellmann> morganfainberg: yeah, I saw something about a trello board and eastern time zone meetings
21:21:14 <stevemar> redrobot, horizon teams are teams horizon, oslo, osc (imo)
21:21:21 <j^2> dhellmann: oh thanks for that clarification
21:21:30 <stevemar> blah... horizontal*
21:21:47 <morganfainberg> dhellmann: trying to get it more visible. The ML and getting a real meeting would be good.
21:21:58 <dhellmann> morganfainberg: ++
21:22:30 <dhellmann> trello looks like a nice organizing tool, but having to request permission to participate felt off-putting
21:22:30 <jroll> I'm trying to get the informational spec for ironic's release model finished up this week, based on ML and review feedback
21:22:35 <jroll> so we can move to it
21:22:40 <morganfainberg> dhellmann: I plan on keeping pushing ayoung-meeting that way and the others from keystone. It needs to be a more than keystone initiative.
21:22:41 <dhellmann> jroll: ++
21:22:55 <bknudson> one question that came up in the keystone meeting is whether a new project like the policy server belongs under keystone...
21:22:58 <dhellmann> morganfainberg: good, I agree
21:23:08 <bknudson> or whether it should be part of the "big tent" openstack
21:23:19 <ttx> steveamr: horizontal = RelMgt, QA, Docs, Infra, I18N... teams that work with all the vertical projects
21:23:19 <krotscheck> Does javascript count as a vertical or as a horizontal? :)
21:23:21 <dhellmann> bknudson: good question. Another is, should there be a policy server?
21:23:22 <fungi> dhellmann: yeah, trello is not free software, but there are free software kanban boards like trello
21:23:27 <morganfainberg> Yeah is it under the big tent or keystone's corner of the big tent.
21:23:39 <morganfainberg> Was the question.
21:23:42 <ttx> stevemar: vertical = anything else (Nova, Swift, Keystone...)
21:23:50 <jroll> krotscheck: is JS a project now? :P
21:23:55 <ttx> Horizon is a bit of a diagonal
21:24:07 <ayoung-meeting> I want it to be more than Keystone
21:24:08 <morganfainberg> ttx: I like that description of horizon ;)
21:24:09 <krotscheck> jroll: It's a state of mind, really.
21:24:10 <david-lyle> up and to the right
21:24:17 <jroll> heh
21:24:22 <dhellmann> fungi: ok, maybe if this team wants to experiment they can talk to infra about helping to stand something like that up?
21:24:24 <fungi> horizon protrudes in the z axis
21:24:24 <ttx> david-lyle: top-right quadrant maybe
21:24:30 <sdague> ayoung-meeting: so instead of hiding things in a subgroup meeting can we just discuss straight on the mailing list?
21:24:50 <sdague> it would actually be kind of cool for openstack-dev to have... development discussions :)
21:24:52 <ayoung-meeting> sdague, there are so many details, but I am happy to do so
21:25:02 <fungi> dhellmann: yep. it would be worth starting a discussion anyway
21:25:04 <dhellmann> sdague: ++
21:25:38 <dhellmann> fungi: I might even be OK with experimenting with trello to see if the "a tool like that" is worth investigating
21:25:59 <sdague> ayoung-meeting: yes, but details need to be turned into text anyway, and discussion via email seems good at this point, also to keep it so that more people can participate without being at a meeting
21:25:59 <dhellmann> but long term, we'd want to host something with better access controls
21:26:03 <ayoung> dhellmann, I'm still mixed, but I needed *something*
21:26:06 <dhellmann> (better in terms of integration)
21:26:11 <fungi> dhellmann: yep. it's a reasonable experiment
21:26:11 <dhellmann> ayoung: understood
21:26:30 <ayoung> so, I think there are two parts:
21:26:40 <ayoung> one is mechanism, which is the easy part
21:26:40 <stevemar> ttx, yes, forgot to put etc... after naming a few horizontal projects :)
21:26:50 <ayoung> the second is getting the story straight across all the projects
21:26:56 <johnthetubaguy> dhellmann: I have seen jira plugins do a decent trello board, and get free licences for open source projects, I could dig out details if thats useful at some point
21:26:56 <fungi> dhellmann: i want to say the tripleo team did some similar experimentation with trello with the idea that it if worked out then we could look at running a free alternative kanban board
21:26:58 <ayoung> lets focus on that part happening in the mailing list
21:27:20 <johnthetubaguy> dhellmann: but you know that opens a big can of worms we might want to leave shut
21:27:21 <dhellmann> ayoung: it sounds like nova may have some new requirements for policy, too
21:27:26 <fungi> johnthetubaguy: free licenses for open source projects does not mean free as in speech software, that's just free as in beer
21:27:34 <ayoung> fungi, ++
21:27:38 <dhellmann> johnthetubaguy: yeah, we might not have an infra team any more if we ask them to deploy jira :-)
21:27:42 <j^2> fungi, i like the idea of a openstack hosted kanban, the Chef team would love that, we’ve tried trello also, it didn’t stick due to people having to sign up
21:27:46 <johnthetubaguy> fungi: yep, thats true
21:27:56 <sdague> fungi: https://taiga.io/ is actually looking pretty good, and is open source
21:27:57 <johnthetubaguy> dhellmann: agreed, just putting that out there
21:28:08 <dhellmann> johnthetubaguy: yep :-)
21:28:10 <ttx> Maniphest actually has a kanban-style dashboard
21:28:22 <dhellmann> ttx: is that part of phabricator?
21:28:24 <sdague> there's that as well :)
21:28:26 <ttx> dhellmann: yes
21:28:36 <dhellmann> ok, so maybe we want to start with that then
21:28:38 <fungi> sdague: yeah, taiga got discussed some at the summit in the storyboard replacement options session. there's a bit of analysis of its issues on the etherpad from that
21:28:40 <ttx> dhellmann: that's the part of Phabricator that the infra team is considering deploying
21:29:20 <sdague> anyway, away from tools, back to the policy thing. ayoung if you could get the details running on the list, because I think there are some distinct concerns on the where the validation points are going to be, how many more round trips to keystone, and where the sources of truth come from.
21:29:23 <fungi> yeah, if we end up running phabricator's maniphest for task tracking, we get a kanban board for free
21:29:31 <ttx> so if we move sufficiently fast there, that is the tool of choice
21:29:35 <dhellmann> sdague: ++
21:30:21 <sdague> none of which I think are irreconcilable, so it should be a constructive discussion
21:31:18 <dhellmann> ok, I think that concludes the formal portion of our agenda this week
21:31:19 <dhellmann> #topic Open discussion
21:31:21 <ayoung> sdague, yep.   I will post a cleaned up version of the Dynamic Policy overview
21:31:35 <dhellmann> ayoung: great, thanks
21:31:46 <dhellmann> does anyone else have anything they would like to bring to the group this week?
21:31:54 <krotscheck> Just a plug to get everyone looking at the CORS spec :) https://review.openstack.org/#/c/179866/
21:32:16 <elmiko> api-wg is still looking for a few good CPLs ;) https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/CrossProjectLiaisons#API_Working_Group
21:32:24 <ttx> krotscheck: if it doesn't get more -1s I think we'll be able to move it to final approval stage
21:32:30 <devananda> I object to anyphing that cant include the letter f in its name on the grounds that it can't be that cool
21:32:44 <krotscheck> ttx: That'd be great. Can I get a hard deadline for that? Without one, things tend to linger.
21:33:11 <dhellmann> yes, our general policy on specs is lazy consensus, so if you don't vote we assume you like it
21:33:14 <ttx> krotscheck: if by end of week it's still in lazy consensus state, I'll add it to TC meetign agenda for next week for final approval
21:33:35 <ttx> krotscheck: so yes, time to call for last-minute reviews of that
21:34:07 <krotscheck> Ok, so I should send a message to the mailing list for final comments?
21:34:10 <dhellmann> krotscheck: maybe you should send an email to the -dev list
21:34:12 <dhellmann> heh
21:34:18 <boris-42> dhellmann: is there instruction how to create WG?)
21:34:26 <ttx> krotscheck: or revive the previous thread with a "last minute call"
21:34:44 <ttx> krotscheck: ISTR there was a thread somewhere already
21:35:10 <dhellmann> boris-42: we have http://governance.openstack.org/reference/new-projects-requirements.html but I'm not sure that's what you want -- what do you have in mind?
21:35:59 <krotscheck> Sent
21:36:02 <krotscheck> woooo
21:36:42 <jroll> krotscheck: this is where I say "coffeescript or gtfo", right?
21:36:43 <boris-42> dhellmann: I would like to make a WG of operators that will work on big big parametrized rally task for real cloud validation
21:36:52 <boris-42> dhellmann: to check that cloud is really ready for production
21:37:02 <boris-42> dhellmann: there is about 5 operators for now
21:37:06 <boris-42> there are*
21:37:22 <boris-42> dhellmann: so what we should do ? create new stackforge project?
21:37:28 <dhellmann> boris-42: ok, the first step is to start organizing the group and actually doing something, and then it can be considered as an official project
21:37:32 <dhellmann> do you need a git repo?
21:38:02 <ttx> boris-42: if it's an Ops WG, fifieldt can help setting it up
21:38:20 <boris-42> dhellmann: we actually don't need repo (we can store this file/files in rally)
21:38:31 <ttx> boris-42: those usually gather at Ops Midcycles/Summits for a working session
21:38:36 <boris-42> ttx: yep it's fully Ops groups
21:38:41 <boris-42> ttx: except probably me=)
21:38:52 <krotscheck> jroll: You may not wake up if you do that :)
21:38:58 <ttx> boris-42: so yeah, I would encourage you to reach out to fifieldt
21:38:58 <jroll> :D
21:39:08 <dhellmann> boris-42: ++ to what ttx said
21:39:32 <boris-42> ttx: dhellmann ok thanks
21:39:40 <dhellmann> ok, any other topics for this week?
21:39:40 <ttx> boris-42: they have plenty of WG there but I have no idea how they "created" them (other than by self-organizing and keeping Tom informed)
21:40:00 <boris-42> dhellmann: [openstack-dev][all][infra][tc][ptl] Scaling up code review process (subdir cores)
21:40:16 <boris-42> ttx: ok great I am going to email him=)
21:40:48 <dhellmann> boris-42: ok, I'll check that thread on the ML
21:40:55 <boris-42> dhellmann: thanks
21:41:04 <dhellmann> if we have nothing else, we can leave early
21:41:10 <ttx> we should
21:41:18 <dhellmann> ok, thank you all, and see you next week
21:41:24 <boris-42> see you
21:41:28 <elmiko> thanks dhellmann !
21:41:29 <pshige> see you
21:41:34 <krotscheck> Toodles!
21:41:39 <dhellmann> #endmeeting