14:03:04 #startmeeting diversity-wg 14:03:04 Meeting started Tue Mar 14 14:03:04 2023 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is spotz. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:03:04 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 14:03:04 The meeting name has been set to 'diversity_wg' 14:03:08 o/ 14:03:14 o/ 14:03:18 #topic Roll Call 14:03:30 ahoy 14:03:37 #chair fungi TheJulia aprice[m] 14:03:37 Current chairs: TheJulia aprice[m] fungi spotz 14:03:48 * TheJulia blinks 14:03:49 :) 14:04:18 #link https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/diversity-wg-agenda 14:04:28 Agenda for anyone who needs it. 14:04:34 #topic Summit 14:04:51 I figured Summit would be relatively fast so thought we'd start with that 14:05:18 Congrats for summit being the first certified Public health badge recipient 14:05:34 * fungi cheers 14:05:53 aprice[m]: you mentioned the CHAOSS badge has been applied for? I know they won't assign it to me:) 14:06:40 it has! I saw a few comments on GitHub last week but hadnt had a chance to answer them because i was at SCaLE. i will get to those today 14:06:56 No worries:) 14:08:19 We have the Diversity Lunch sponsored by Bloomberg and the Speed Mentoring breakfast will be sponsored by Red Hat. I normally do the Speed Mentoring and we'll need to get the RSVPs attached once it goes on the schedule. Does Bloomberg need anything from this group that we know of? 14:08:33 many thanks to bloomberg and red hat for their support! 14:08:52 spotz: not that i know of re: bloomberg support, but we have a meeting set up with them next week 14:09:56 Ok let them know we're available to help with anything 14:10:36 Is there anything else Summit wise we need to discuss at this point? We're closer then we think but it's still a few months off 14:11:05 one question 14:11:12 Go for it 14:12:03 The agenda notes a proximity indicator, Are many conferences doing that these days? 14:13:33 from a comfort level standpoint, I think it makes sense, but being at SCaLE this past weekend, I didn't see many yellow or red wrist bands, and even green ones disappeared and didn't seem that visible. Maybe it is just the nature of wrist bands? dunno. 14:14:51 yeah, i was forced to wear a yellow one due to lack of green :) 14:14:55 Linux Foundation events have them I know for sure. They're the only ones besides us and FOSDEM that I've been to. I normally put mine on my lanyard so it's pretty visible. FOSDEM had nothing 14:16:00 If we don't date them my suggestion would be to get 75 or 100% of attendees in each color 14:16:21 I guess cost per unit will be the driving factor in which path we go then 14:16:22 That way we could use them in the future if needed. 14:16:52 Like show ribbons, if they're not dated clubs use them up over time 14:17:12 It might be okay to run out, I think the inherent nature of a conference means people will be more willing to be in the yellow to green spectrum 14:17:59 I'm just thinking outloud, we can move on from my point of view 14:18:22 if cost is a concern, it could be as inexpensive as a few spools of colored 1/4" or 10mm ribbon cut into long enough pieces to tie to something and remain visible 14:20:07 Custom wrist bands are a penny in a quick google search 14:20:48 THere may be limits but that's not even $100 probably 14:21:19 Even non-custom then, the is likely a ton of inventory out there 14:21:50 Yeah 14:22:38 i have looked at some initial pricing and I think it's something we can do 14:22:59 Great 14:23:07 cool 14:23:34 Anything else on Summit? 14:23:49 pronoun stickers are also in the works. can this group provide the full list of pronouns? 14:24:03 we will also have blanks for folks to write their own pronouns in 14:24:04 Yeah we can get those for you 14:24:11 Perfect 14:24:44 thank you! 14:24:55 I thin we've in the past had the he/she/they combos so blanks would fill in anything we might miss 14:25:16 ok that works 14:25:28 it's another thing that i basically have in my cart online 14:25:36 We'll see if there's any we missed from the combos though 14:25:59 Ok anything else for Summit before we move to the CoC? 14:26:32 that was it from me 14:26:50 We'll probably have to punt the Survey to vPTG and I'll get us maybe 2 sessions, one for CoC and one for Survey 14:27:01 #topic Code of Conduct 14:27:16 #link https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jhORItpdLXbciCXTyZPRiqM44NDtw5fe4l17io7XXq4/edit?usp=sharing 14:27:43 That is the link to the working doc which we can track changes 14:28:01 I've made a couple direct suggestions, and I've started leaving a few comments 14:28:09 #link https://openinfra.dev/legal/code-of-conduct 14:28:15 Our current CoC 14:30:01 Julia reading through your comments it seems like you're in favor of keeping a more prose type of CoC? Does anyone feel like we need a more bullet list one similar to Fedora and CentOS - https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ 14:30:57 I think any dramatic change might raise a ton of eyebrows 14:31:06 maybe that is a good thing, dunno 14:31:24 One thing about the bullet list is the points are more visible, I think we cover a lot of the same things though 14:31:34 I do like their direct and to the point nature, I could mentally go either way 14:31:49 And we do have the bullet list under be careful with your words and actions 14:31:55 Yeah, even just sifting through the existing text, it is a lot. Maybe a "summary", dunno 14:33:11 maybe the negative first, and then the positive of our existing text? 14:33:21 "Don't do this, here is what we strive for" 14:34:03 I would flip it, this is what we strive for so don't do this 14:34:23 yeah, id start with the positive to reinforce what our expectations are 14:34:25 so existing form of the text? 14:34:28 main concern with a list of things not to do is that some bad actors will take it as an exhaustive list so they can argue that their actions aren't forbidden by the coc, but i suppose that's possible no matter how we word it 14:34:36 sorry - splitting between two meetings so catching up 14:35:04 fungi: that is a thought which is rolling around in my mind as well 14:35:33 I think we address tht currently with - This includes but is not limited to: 14:35:37 I think the prose *does* help with that since there is much more of an expression of intent and our values 14:36:07 * TheJulia sees the highlighted text 14:37:36 We can't possibly come up with everything and I think any attempt to do it would be very depressing 14:37:42 I think, to the core point, it makes sense to explicitly add to the negative behaviors 14:37:44 one thing that I also wonder and that I dont think is explicitly called out. 14:37:59 I think most folks think of CoC as event policies, not ongoing policies around online behavior as well. 14:38:03 is that worth calling out more directly? 14:38:56 aprice[m]: I was looking through and I think the 4th paragraph causes things to get framed into event policy fairly quickly 14:39:18 aprice[m]: so some wording updates to that paragraph and I think that might help? 14:40:15 We do have a separate CoC for events or did that get folded in? 14:40:25 well, also we have separate community and event coc documents, maybe we need to make their purpose clearer 14:40:30 If your skimming it in a heat of the moment, the third paragraph just doesn't feel like it really sinks in applicablity wise 14:41:18 yeah, it does make reference to the separate event-specific coc in that parahraph 14:41:26 spotz: we do have a separate one, but i think it's just a general perception around CoC in general 14:41:50 hopefully that perception is changing, since lots of online communities who don't put on events have a coc 14:42:52 Shouldn't all sponsored events fall under the events CoC? If so moving that mention in the first line there might help? 14:43:26 Maybe the issue is we're just overloading people with information? 14:44:26 I think it's a lot there to read through vs being able to just skim 14:44:59 well, the old-old original coc definitely didn't overload people with information, the additional text was added because "be excellent to each other" was insufficient guidance 14:45:12 hehe 14:45:23 i agree there's ptobably a careful balance to strike between too much and too little 14:45:52 s/ptobably/probably/ 14:46:00 I concur 14:46:18 * TheJulia adds a comment to the doc 14:46:39 So maybe start with more bulletted summary and then have the wordier one under? 14:47:32 a tl;dr and then a full body? 14:47:43 yeah 14:48:13 yeah i like that 14:49:54 Maybe something like what I've suggested? 14:50:31 My one concern would be we'd have 1, 1a, b, 1c, etc so it'd still be a bit long but I can't think of. way around that 14:50:59 I can't type today but y'all are used to reading my typos:) 14:52:39 Maybe the tl;dr is as simple as kind of going back to the "be execellent to each other" "listen, collaborate, and treat everyone the same" and 14:52:46 * TheJulia is still trying to work on a condensed bullet 14:53:31 "Inappropriate or toxic behavior is not permitted, see below for examples." 14:54:01 See below for a more complete but not exhaustive list? 14:54:14 that works 14:54:52 and i wonder if we should say in the reporting part "if there is something concerning that is not included in this CoC, please reach out anyways" 14:55:07 so it reinforces that things can be reported and investigated if someone is uncomfortable 14:55:23 perhaps "Do read onward to learn more about the values we strive for. If you have something concerning which is not explicitly covered, reach out." ? 14:55:24 +1 14:55:37 sgtm 14:55:44 +1 was for Allison. Reading Julia now 14:55:59 * TheJulia groked it that way :) 14:56:05 Ahh a wording option:) Yey 14:56:48 4 minutes 14:57:45 should we just draw up some suggestions in the current doc? 14:58:32 Yeah and does anyone have a preference for a day and time for the vPTG to continue? Maybe we should try for either 2 hours together or 2 sessions for this 14:59:08 I think Wednesday is going to be very busy for me and I don't have awareness yet of any cross-community items 14:59:29 I usually gor for Monday or Tuesday morning 15:00:17 CoC has taken presidence over the survey right now but I'll make one session for that and hope the other projects show 15:00:17 mainly i'll want it to not overlap with tc sessions. also i'll make sure to not schedule the security sig time when d&i is going 15:00:37 Yeah that's my main conflict fungi so I schedule around them 15:00:39 I think the survey is important too though 15:00:54 When are we meeting next? 15:01:10 It is, but without the other projects it's just an OpenStack oriented one 15:01:18 second tuesday of april will be the 11th 15:01:24 We've been meeting monthly 15:01:25 day after easter monday 15:01:42 i'll be on vacation that week, but don't let that stop anyone from meeting 15:02:01 vPTG would be the next time we meet before our normal meeting 15:02:11 I'd like to try and get a revised CoC in front of the board by May, if at all possible 15:02:12 yep 15:02:45 Which I think means we will need to collaborate async, but it sounds like we've kind of got a good consensus already 15:02:49 I'll grab 2 hours for this at vPTG, then we'd have the regular meeting if needed 15:02:53 aside from maybe some more minor wording items 15:03:12 Yeah and then I think it needs to go to legal? 15:03:47 legal and then board approval 15:04:08 we would likely sync with legal while maybe floating to the board 15:04:25 And we're past time so keep working async, we'll hopefully finish it a vPTG so it can go to legal before the board meeting 15:04:33 ++ 15:04:35 Thanks everyone! 15:04:41 thanks! 15:04:48 Thanks all! Great work on this! 15:04:53 #endmeeting