14:05:53 <AJaeger> #startmeeting docteam
14:05:54 <openstack> Meeting started Wed Mar 12 14:05:53 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is AJaeger. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:05:55 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
14:05:58 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'docteam'
14:06:34 <Sam-I-Am> let's roll...
14:06:57 <AJaeger> Sam-I-Am, do you want to chair through the meeting? I'm currently in another meeting as well and need to multiplex...
14:07:21 <Sam-I-Am> s... sure. not sure of the bot commands though.
14:07:27 <Sam-I-Am> anyone else here know them?
14:07:43 <AJaeger> Just use #topic "text", #action "text"
14:08:04 <Sam-I-Am> aight
14:08:14 <Sam-I-Am> #topic "Action items from last meeting"
14:08:34 <Sam-I-Am> i think the bot doesn't like me
14:08:45 <AJaeger> Ok, let me do those
14:08:49 <AJaeger> #topic "Action items from last meeting"
14:09:05 <Sam-I-Am> aight...
14:09:32 <nickchase> Last meeting was pretty informal
14:09:47 <Sam-I-Am> nickchase: yeah, i'm going for the last apac meeting notes
14:09:52 <nickchase> we were going to get Trove implemented in the install guide
14:09:52 <nickchase> ah
14:09:53 <nickchase> ok
14:10:12 <Sam-I-Am> i was action'd to build sample diagrams for the installation guide
14:10:38 <Sam-I-Am> i'm mostly done with that and will send it out to the list for review today or tomorrow
14:10:48 <phil_h> They look qite good so far
14:10:53 <Sam-I-Am> after that we need to document some sort of standards for diagrams
14:11:19 <Sam-I-Am> i was using omnigraffle, but moved over to inkscape. anything that outputs standard svg seems to work.
14:11:42 <Sam-I-Am> once the diagrams are approved, i'll start putting them into the install guide
14:12:04 <Sam-I-Am> anything else on this?
14:12:07 <phil_h> We need to source filesposted
14:12:28 <phil_h> I have noticed at times only the png files areavailable
14:12:41 <Sam-I-Am> i think docbook understands svgs
14:12:52 <Sam-I-Am> pngs dont resize well
14:13:00 <Sam-I-Am> hi sgordon
14:13:02 <sgordon> >.>
14:13:31 <Sam-I-Am> i guess there's still an action item to check/build diagram conventions
14:13:40 <AJaeger> clouddocs-maven converts automatically from svg to png AFAIK
14:14:08 <Sam-I-Am> ok. but we can feed it .svg in the source, right?
14:14:28 <nickchase> right
14:14:38 <Sam-I-Am> aight
14:14:41 <Sam-I-Am> anything else?
14:14:43 <nickchase> you would have to, i would think.
14:15:16 <Sam-I-Am> loquacities mentioned another face to face meeting for apac folks on april 9th... but that doesn't apply to this group.
14:15:42 <Sam-I-Am> loquacities also mentioned asking annegentle about core reviewers
14:15:54 <Sam-I-Am> apparently annegentle completed that project
14:16:03 <nickchase> she did announce the latest round.
14:16:09 <Sam-I-Am> thats the end of old items
14:16:33 <Sam-I-Am> nickchase: do you want to talk about trove?
14:16:42 <Sam-I-Am> since it was kinda-sorta from our last meeting
14:16:46 <nickchase> Sure.
14:17:01 <nickchase> Basically, the folks from Tesora have taken over responsibility for the Trove docs
14:17:16 <nickchase> Laurel is working on getting a "here's how you add Trove" section into the install docs
14:17:31 <nickchase> So that's one less thing for us to worry about for a couple of weeks
14:17:33 <Sam-I-Am> excellent
14:18:08 <nickchase> Sam-I-Am: Do you want to talk about the networking section of the install guide?
14:18:17 <Sam-I-Am> nickchase: its a topic soon
14:18:23 <nickchase> :)
14:18:29 <Sam-I-Am> does anyone here know about the ops guide schedule with oreilly?
14:18:37 <Sam-I-Am> thats a topic but i think its an anne thing
14:18:48 <nickchase> I know anne said it want to production
14:18:58 <nickchase> so we should see it soon, methinks
14:19:07 <Sam-I-Am> thats what i thought too. i saw some final rounds of editing a couple of weeks ago.
14:19:07 <nickchase> "soon" being a relative term, of course.
14:19:19 <AJaeger> #topic trove install docs
14:19:25 <phil_h> should have gone to production last week
14:19:31 <nickchase> for traditional publishing production is about 6 weeks
14:19:38 <phil_h> I did a review of it the week before
14:19:41 <Sam-I-Am> hi dianefleming
14:19:45 <Sam-I-Am> phil_h: cool
14:19:48 <dianefleming> Hi! Sorry I'm late
14:19:51 <AJaeger> nickchase, that's great!
14:19:57 <nickchase> hey, dianefleming
14:20:05 <Sam-I-Am> dianefleming: do you know more about the oreilly ops guide schedule?
14:20:15 <nickchase> AJaeger: Note the "about". :)
14:20:17 <dianefleming> I don't know anything about the ops guide schedule
14:20:30 <Sam-I-Am> dianefleming: ok
14:20:32 <dianefleming> sorry
14:20:52 <Sam-I-Am> AJaeger: #topic design summit proposal system open, doc slots tue-wed
14:21:02 <AJaeger> #topic design summit proposal system open, doc slots tue-wed
14:21:07 <AJaeger> Yes, sir!
14:21:12 <AJaeger> #topic design summit proposal system open, doc slots tue-wed
14:21:23 <Sam-I-Am> AJaeger: thanks jaegerbot
14:21:30 <AJaeger> ;)
14:21:36 <Sam-I-Am> anyone have any input on this topic?
14:22:18 <Sam-I-Am> anyone proposing stuff?
14:22:43 <nickchase> now to confirm: this is the "down and dirty" stuff right?
14:22:43 <Sam-I-Am> AJaeger: #topic installation guide updates for icehouse
14:22:47 <Sam-I-Am> errr
14:22:53 <Sam-I-Am> nickchase: i guess... i think this is an anne topic :/
14:23:16 <AJaeger> #topic installation guide updates for Icehouse
14:23:22 <nickchase> OK, well, I was going to propose we talk about how to simplify the process of working on docs
14:23:26 <nickchase> but I guess it can wait. :)
14:23:31 <Sam-I-Am> nickchase: go for it
14:23:46 <dianefleming> yes
14:23:52 <Sam-I-Am> i think everyone agrees about simplification
14:24:16 <nickchase> Well, I have been noticing that it's taking an inordinate amount of time and effort to get people spun up to work on docs.  I mean CRAZY amounts of time.
14:24:18 <dianefleming> what would you change
14:24:31 <nickchase> That would, of course, be the topic, but ...
14:24:44 <nickchase> there's got to be a way to do something like import changes from a wiki or SOMETHING.
14:24:55 <nickchase> I can put something together
14:24:59 <nickchase> if there's interest
14:25:09 <dianefleming> import changes from where?
14:25:27 <sgordon> it depends on the problem you are trying to fix
14:25:30 <nickchase> Again, that would have to be defined, but a wiki, or something similarly easy to work with.
14:25:37 <sgordon> initial import is easy but then you still have to handle edits to docbook
14:26:01 <sgordon> and wiki or asciidoc/rst to docbook conversions dont typically have the semantics that you expect
14:26:05 <nickchase> The problem I'm trying to fix is that it takes someone who's really smart an entire day to get spun up to work on docs.
14:26:17 <sgordon> right
14:26:18 <nickchase> sgordon: I'm aware.  I really am.
14:26:26 <sgordon> what i am saying is an import process doesnt really fix that
14:26:36 <nickchase> Please keep in mind that i"m the person who moved Manning Publications to docbook.
14:26:43 <nickchase> So I know how valuable semantics are.
14:26:56 <nickchase> But there's got to be a way for us to make things better.
14:27:04 <nickchase> I didn't (yet) think through how to do it
14:27:08 <nickchase> but I can if there's interest
14:27:10 <nickchase> that's all I'm saying.
14:27:41 <Sam-I-Am> if it helps get more people working on docs...
14:27:56 <sgordon> nickchase, so one of the things atm is we're very focused on guides as the deliverable
14:28:02 <sgordon> which leads to the value of the semantics etc.
14:28:13 <sgordon> i wonder if there is space for a more knowledge base style approach
14:28:23 <nickchase> that's an idea.
14:28:25 <sgordon> some of the openstack security notice content already takes this form
14:28:27 <sgordon> albeit on the wiki
14:28:34 <nickchase> which is not a bad thing
14:28:38 <sgordon> but we could have a more formal system for writing and indexing that
14:29:08 <sgordon> i mean the thing is a lot of that content now goes to disparate blogs all over the place
14:29:08 <nickchase> honestly, if I had to choose between a system where the only way to provide info to the docs team is ...
14:29:25 <nickchase> to put some simple notice in a bug that the docs team then has to interpret and write, and ...
14:29:42 <nickchase> a system where someone can actually do the writing, I would prefer the latter, even if ...
14:29:55 <nickchase> it meant that a human doc writer would have to take that and add it to the docbook.
14:30:06 <nickchase> So even a "manual" import might be better than what we have now.
14:30:25 <sgordon> there's nothing really stopping that today
14:30:35 <nickchase> So that's my thought; is there interest in doing a session on making that happen?
14:30:40 <sgordon> the reality is for example that a good blueprint should have a spec that would allow us to do that for docimpact
14:30:40 <nickchase> sgordon: no, there's not
14:31:05 <sgordon> (i think this is a tangent but the bulk of the queue really seems to be docimpact stuff we have no idea wtf to do with)
14:31:14 <sgordon> stuff that is just fixes seems to get done relatively quickly
14:31:27 <nickchase> sgordon: right, that's PRECISELY my point
14:31:49 <nickchase> I think that if there was an easier way for devs to do the actual additions to the docs, they might do it
14:31:59 <nickchase> they might not, but we wouldn't be any worse off than we are now
14:32:06 <sgordon> nickchase, im doubtful if they cant even be bothered writing a design
14:32:10 <sgordon> which is the case in many cases today
14:33:06 <nickchase> like I said, there are details to work out, and maybe that's not the right answer as to HOW
14:33:09 <sgordon> i think it's worth having a session but i think it almost needs to be in one of the cross project slots to be successful
14:33:22 <nickchase> that's not a bad idea.
14:33:29 <nickchase> so how do we do that?
14:33:35 <sgordon> good question :)
14:33:43 <sgordon> draft a proposal like any other i guess?
14:33:45 <nickchase> OK, so Anne will know, I would think
14:33:49 <Sam-I-Am> sounds like an action item to me :)
14:33:53 <nickchase> sure does.
14:33:55 <nickchase> I'll take it
14:34:07 <AJaeger> Sam-I-Am, what's the wording of the AI?
14:34:12 <Sam-I-Am> nickchase: ^^
14:34:24 <sgordon> ?
14:34:43 <AJaeger> "action item: Talk with annegentle about a cross-project proposal for getting docs easier in?"
14:34:49 <Sam-I-Am> AJaeger: i think that works
14:34:54 <dianefleming> sounds good
14:35:11 <AJaeger> #action nickchase talk with annegentle about a cross-project proposal for getting docs easier in?
14:35:17 <Sam-I-Am> yay
14:35:25 <Sam-I-Am> off to the next topic (currently the topic) ?
14:35:42 <AJaeger> #topic Now really: Installation guide updates for Icehouse
14:36:07 <Sam-I-Am> making progress on the updates
14:36:34 <Sam-I-Am> i have pulled a lot of bugs under the blueprint and then opened bug #1291071 for all the steps
14:36:54 <Sam-I-Am> AJaeger mentioned using the blueprint tag in patch commit messages, but thats new to me.
14:37:03 <Sam-I-Am> i think we need to get the blueprint 'approved' or whatever
14:37:29 <AJaeger> https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/GitCommitMessages#Including_external_references - search for blueprint
14:37:55 <Sam-I-Am> i'm curious if there's a way to tag specific work items
14:38:10 <Sam-I-Am> besides manually changing them to "DONE"
14:38:31 <nickchase> Sam-I-Am: We definitely need to get the status changed on that.  Action item?
14:38:47 <sgordon> Sam-I-Am, not really - typically you would use the gerrit topic for the blueprint to review outstanding patchsets
14:38:53 <sgordon> that's about as close as it gets
14:39:14 <sgordon> infra also automatically adds patches that tag the bp to the bp whiteboard, as useful as that is
14:39:36 <Sam-I-Am> ok. do we propose a gerrit topic for the blueprint or is it automatically generated?
14:40:02 <Sam-I-Am> nickchase: since you created the bp, do you want the action item to talk to anne about making it more official?
14:40:07 <nickchase> sure
14:40:34 <AJaeger> #action nickchase to talk with annegentle about getting the blueprint approved and how to use it
14:40:36 <AJaeger> nickchase, thanks
14:40:41 <Sam-I-Am> wooho
14:41:13 <Sam-I-Am> i'm also going to update the work items in the bp
14:41:31 <AJaeger> #action Sam-I-Am to update the work items in the blueprint
14:41:35 <Sam-I-Am> wish i knew this before i opened the bug :P
14:41:39 <Sam-I-Am> live and learn
14:42:00 <Sam-I-Am> i took a stab at "flattening" the neutron controller section
14:42:11 <Sam-I-Am> that is, removing support for multiple plug-ins
14:42:20 <Sam-I-Am> several hours later i realized the sun went down
14:42:30 <AJaeger> ;)
14:42:34 <Sam-I-Am> i also removed stuff no longer necessary for icehouse
14:43:08 <Sam-I-Am> since these are large changes, i'm looking for suggestions on two options...
14:43:43 <Sam-I-Am> 1) submit the flattened section which still covers OVS... no changes to the content minus icehouse-specific issues
14:43:51 <Sam-I-Am> 2) change ovs to ml2 and submit the whole mess
14:44:15 <Sam-I-Am> i kind of like option 1 because people can still use the guide until we're ready to do all the ML2 conversion
14:44:19 <Sam-I-Am> and there's less to review
14:44:45 <Sam-I-Am> plus there's a few distros with broken icehouse/neutron still :/
14:46:12 <Sam-I-Am> silence...
14:46:14 <Sam-I-Am> anyone?
14:46:33 <Sam-I-Am> i'm sort of new to big changes, so trying to make this easier for everyone
14:46:36 <nickchase> I'm for option 1 as well
14:46:53 <phil_h> I like getting to ML2 as soon as possible
14:47:06 <Sam-I-Am> phil_h: i hope it works for icehouse :P
14:47:21 <Sam-I-Am> phil_h: once these sections are flattened, adding ml2 should be pretty easy.
14:47:28 <Sam-I-Am> basically just change the plug-in section
14:47:41 <phil_h> It should if OVS work ( fingers crossed behind back)
14:47:58 <AJaeger> we can freeze the chapter for a few days to avoid merge conflicts...
14:48:11 <phil_h> Probably should flatten first
14:48:32 <Sam-I-Am> AJaeger: luckily i havent seen much neutron stuff. people are afraid of it :)
14:49:02 <AJaeger> this is on trunk - where we have a havana guide as well. I don't have a problem with doing major surgery for some days.
14:49:15 <Sam-I-Am> i'll submit the flattening patch for the controller section
14:49:15 <phil_h> they are but they should be learning it
14:49:17 <AJaeger> We could even stop publishing for a few days until everything is in ;)
14:49:39 <Sam-I-Am> the patch isn't glorious and still needs text/diagrams plus the ML2 content
14:49:46 <Sam-I-Am> but its a start to get us on the right path
14:50:10 <Sam-I-Am> it should pass 'niceness' and be usable until we add ml2
14:50:31 <Sam-I-Am> however, because all of the sub-sections are now in one place, it brings out more of the issues with the original text
14:50:32 <AJaeger> The one think I learned from the Havana work on the Install guide: Release early, release often ;) Give others the chance to help out
14:50:42 <Sam-I-Am> AJaeger: agreed
14:50:59 <Sam-I-Am> so flatten each section -> submit -> add ml2 -> submit
14:51:04 <Sam-I-Am> sounds like a nicer cycle
14:51:11 <AJaeger> Sam-I-Am, agreed.
14:51:11 <phil_h> agree
14:51:26 <Sam-I-Am> based on the large number of steps in the bug, i'm trying to make this as atomic as possible
14:52:01 <Sam-I-Am> i think that's it for install guide stuff
14:52:04 <Sam-I-Am> plenty of work to do
14:52:07 <AJaeger> #agreed Networking chapter surgery will be submitted in smaller steps: flatten each section -> submit -> add ml2 -> submit
14:52:26 <Sam-I-Am> my action item "do stuff!"
14:52:28 <AJaeger> Next topic?
14:52:38 <Sam-I-Am> AJaeger: google hangout
14:52:41 <AJaeger> #topic Google Hangout
14:52:52 <Sam-I-Am> annegentle passed this one off to me
14:53:31 <Sam-I-Am> i was suggesting 20:00 UTC on 3/19
14:53:42 <Sam-I-Am> however, lana mentioned that we catered to EU folks last time
14:54:07 <Sam-I-Am> and suggested 21:00 or 22:00 UTC
14:54:30 <Sam-I-Am> which is 7am or 8am AEST or whatever... i think
14:55:16 <AJaeger> 21:00 UTC is 10pm for me - I could do it. gpocentek what about you?
14:56:02 <AJaeger> Otherwise we do it at some time where I'm sleeping ;)
14:56:12 <Sam-I-Am> since when do you sleep?
14:56:25 * AJaeger is not fifield ;)
14:56:29 <Sam-I-Am> lol
14:56:34 <Sam-I-Am> the apac folks think i dont sleep
14:56:37 <annegentle> hey sorry I'm late, wifi is worse than I anticipated
14:56:50 <Sam-I-Am> annegentle: we're limping along pretty well
14:56:52 <annegentle> thank you for running with it!
14:57:05 <annegentle> sleeping is pretty much required sometimes! :)
14:57:09 <Sam-I-Am> AJaeger: #action me to propose 21:00 on 3/19 on -doc
14:57:10 <AJaeger> So, shall we propose 21:00 UTC?
14:57:10 <dianefleming> ha ha
14:57:12 <gpocentek> AJaeger: yes that could work for me too
14:57:33 <AJaeger> #action Sam-I-Am propose 21:00 UTC on 2014-03-19 for Google Hangout on mailing list
14:57:40 <AJaeger> #topic Open Questions
14:57:48 <AJaeger> WE have two minutes - any quick questions?
14:57:51 <Sam-I-Am> lol
14:57:57 <annegentle> I like the proposal, thanks Sam-I-Am for running wid it!
14:58:15 <Sam-I-Am> annegentle: could you quickly touch on the oreilly schedule and docs proposals for the simmit?
14:58:23 <annegentle> you can now propose talks at http://summit.openstack.org
14:58:28 <annegentle> heh mind reader!
14:58:46 <annegentle> Also the O'Reilly edits come back for me to enter 3/14 so I'll be heads down on that
14:58:57 <annegentle> The copyeditor already caught the problematic Dashboard/dashboard
14:59:00 <Sam-I-Am> annegentle: no wonder we dont see you much anymore
14:59:00 <AJaeger> #action  propose talks at http://summit.openstack.org
14:59:13 <annegentle> Sam-I-Am: this week was SXSW Sat-today
14:59:23 <AJaeger> annegentle, if you need some help with doing some changes, just ask!
14:59:25 <annegentle> Downtown, in conference centers, flooded wifi, etc!
14:59:27 <Sam-I-Am> annegentle: oh no, another SomethingGate to discuss
14:59:35 <annegentle> AJaeger: great idea! I'll distribute by chapter once I see what we get
14:59:44 <Sam-I-Am> annegentle: if you need help let me know too
14:59:46 <annegentle> Sam-I-Am: ha ha, it's all good
14:59:57 <Sam-I-Am> i'll stop sleeping!
15:00:09 <annegentle> I've also started talking to our editor at Rackspace, she'll do a full edit on the User Guide end-of-March
15:00:15 <AJaeger> I suggest we move the discussion to #openstack-doc and I end the meeting now...
15:00:20 <annegentle> Sounds good
15:00:22 <AJaeger> #endmeeting