03:01:25 <loquacities> #startmeeting docteam
03:01:26 <openstack> Meeting started Wed Jul 30 03:01:25 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is loquacities. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
03:01:27 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
03:01:30 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'docteam'
03:01:30 <alexandra> Good to hear, hope it's a fast recovery
03:01:40 <loquacities> #topic Action items from the last meeting
03:01:51 <dnavale> thanks, hopefully soon
03:02:07 <loquacities> regXboi to add list of existing neutron doc bugs to the blueprint
03:02:07 <loquacities> wiki page
03:02:15 <loquacities> Sam-I-Am: that's you, right?
03:02:31 <Sam-I-Am> uh
03:02:44 <Sam-I-Am> regXboi is not me, but i think that was done.
03:02:58 <loquacities> it's not?
03:03:00 <slong_> what is regxboi??
03:03:18 <Sam-I-Am> a new docs person
03:03:21 <Sam-I-Am> interested in neutron
03:03:25 <Sam-I-Am> they dont come around often
03:03:28 <loquacities> lol
03:03:31 <alexandra> Is their name... Matt
03:03:32 <loquacities> we better look after him :P
03:03:35 <alexandra> Last name... Kassawarra
03:03:40 <alexandra> Kassawara*
03:03:40 <Sam-I-Am> slong_: wow, long time no see
03:03:44 <slong_> :D
03:03:51 <slong_> Trying to get back into the fold, Sam-I-Am
03:04:00 <slong_> Did you see I submitted a patch?
03:04:14 <loquacities> #topic Architecture and Design Guide progress
03:04:35 <loquacities> #info It's Alive! The Architecture Design Guide has been merged
03:04:42 <alexandra> Yes, yes it has.
03:04:42 <slong_> !!
03:04:42 <openstack> slong_: Error: "!" is not a valid command.
03:04:44 <loquacities> ^^ from the US meeting last week :)
03:04:49 <alexandra> And it's looking pretty a'okay!
03:05:03 <loquacities> #link http://docs.openstack.org/arch-design/content/
03:05:06 <Sam-I-Am> slong_: its been... months?
03:05:28 <slong_> 2 months...
03:05:29 * fifieldt_ wanders in
03:05:36 <Sam-I-Am> hallo
03:05:40 <alexandra> fifieldt_, IT'S YOU. You're the one that has regxboi
03:05:43 <alexandra> Found him loquacities
03:05:43 <loquacities> so it's worth saying congrats to asettle, since she's here :)
03:05:48 <alexandra> Oh spanks
03:06:09 <loquacities> #topic Review docs-specs: shared glossary and HOT template chapter in user guide
03:06:31 <ddomingo> is that the HEAT templates guide?
03:06:34 <dnavale> i think that one still waiting for the patch to get approved..
03:06:35 <dnavale> yes
03:06:38 <ddomingo> ack
03:07:02 <loquacities> ok
03:07:05 <dnavale> that will be the starting point and then we start including more stuff
03:07:40 <slong_> dnavale, who are you working with?
03:07:45 <slong_> 'we'
03:07:57 <dnavale> gauvain
03:08:03 <dnavale> and annegentle
03:08:20 <ddomingo> ^ gpocentek
03:08:49 <annegentle> ohai
03:08:56 <dnavale> yup.. thats the one.. and this is the starting point https://review.openstack.org/#/c/108133/
03:09:04 <annegentle> sorry still getting kids to bed but will pop in when I can
03:09:30 <Sam-I-Am> nice crowd in here
03:09:39 <loquacities> heya an
03:09:43 <loquacities> annegentle*
03:09:57 <loquacities> #topic Summit proposals due 7/28/14
03:10:01 <loquacities> which is of course done
03:10:31 <fifieldt_> did anyone submit anything?
03:10:37 <loquacities> i did!
03:10:42 * fifieldt_ hi5
03:10:45 <alexandra> fifieldt_, the team that wrote the OpenStack Design Guide did :)
03:10:52 <alexandra> so, hopefully we'll get it!
03:10:58 <alexandra> We proposed a panel
03:11:15 <fifieldt_> ah, that was a fun panel when we did the ops guide :)
03:11:17 <fifieldt_> I hope you get it
03:11:26 <loquacities> me too :)
03:11:26 <dnavale> alexandra, nice. good luck
03:11:30 <alexandra> *nods* we heard it was a success for you guys, so we're riding on your coat tails
03:11:38 <alexandra> Thanks dnavale :0
03:11:40 <alexandra> :) *
03:11:44 <loquacities> #topic Doc tools updates
03:12:26 <loquacities> from last meeting: 14:40:10 <annegentle> I don't have a lot to report on doc tools, just keep an eye on the mailing list about the training guide xi:includes
03:12:48 <fifieldt_> I am playing with the epub build
03:12:50 <fifieldt_> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/107825/
03:13:01 <fifieldt_> I got it to work, kinda
03:13:05 <fifieldt_> with image support, even
03:13:14 <fifieldt_> it still looks kinda bad, but with that patch, might be usable
03:13:32 <Sam-I-Am> lol @ last comment on that patch
03:13:45 <slong_> who reads epubs?
03:13:46 <fifieldt_> martin paulo is a legend
03:14:01 <alexandra> Hahahahaahaha
03:14:03 <fifieldt_> slong_, we get requests :D
03:14:19 <slong_> :D
03:14:22 <alexandra> From/
03:14:23 <alexandra> ? *
03:14:31 <fifieldt_> personally, I hate reading on the screen :)
03:14:38 <fifieldt_> from random people on the internet
03:14:39 <alexandra> So, you and that one guy?
03:14:43 <alexandra> LOL
03:14:47 <loquacities> lol
03:15:22 <fifieldt_> the complaints were around the epub generated by {book sprint, oreilly} not matching the html/pdf
03:15:34 <fifieldt_> the people did actually want epubs :)
03:15:38 <slong_> ah, makes sense
03:15:40 <brucer_> hm, any idea what % read epub?
03:15:45 <fifieldt_> no idea!
03:15:54 <fifieldt_> acrtually
03:15:56 <loquacities> we should be able to get that from website stats, surely?
03:15:58 <fifieldt_> I do have an idea
03:16:01 <fifieldt_> oreilly sales data is clear
03:16:03 <alexandra> Dun dun dunnnnnnnnn
03:16:05 <loquacities> ah
03:16:09 <fifieldt_> many more epubs than actual books
03:16:19 <fifieldt_> for ops guide
03:16:31 <loquacities> hem, that's not horribly surprising
03:17:30 <loquacities> #topic docs swarm
03:17:42 <loquacities> so, the brisbane docs swarm is on 9 august
03:17:59 <loquacities> #link http://openstack-swarm.rhcloud.com/
03:18:00 <ddomingo> anybody in BNE coming?
03:18:12 <alexandra> *waves* yes
03:18:30 <loquacities> *raises hand*
03:18:37 <Sam-I-Am> does everyone know about the wiki with the toc?
03:18:41 <martinlopes_> /me is going too
03:18:44 <martinlopes_> oops
03:18:47 <martinlopes_> derp
03:18:52 * Sam-I-Am is too far away
03:19:00 <loquacities> it's on the links page on that site
03:19:04 <loquacities> also: there'll be swag
03:19:05 <loquacities> and pizza
03:19:16 <alexandra> Oh god, no more pizza
03:19:20 <alexandra> I ate too much
03:19:23 <Sam-I-Am> alexandra: mtn dew
03:19:30 <brucer_> breakfast tacos?
03:19:33 <loquacities> there is also an impromptu US meetup later in august
03:20:31 <ddomingo> loquacities, for OpenStack upstream docs? or OpenStack upstream devs+docs?
03:21:03 <loquacities> docs
03:21:30 <loquacities> 27 august, at the castle, i believe
03:22:04 <fifieldt_> hmmm
03:22:08 <fifieldt_> any info on that?
03:22:22 <loquacities> i think annegentle will be able to help you there
03:22:42 <loquacities> ok, i think that covers the formal topics
03:22:48 <loquacities> #topic Open Discussion
03:22:48 <fifieldt_> It'd be great if it was on the mailing list :)
03:22:55 <alexandra> Informal topic: breakfast tacos
03:23:05 <JRobinson__> A topic for open discussion is the review guidlines
03:23:06 <fifieldt_> how awesome are breakfast tacos?
03:23:09 <brucer_> alexandra: Your fave!
03:23:09 <JRobinson__> #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Documentation/ReviewGuidelines
03:23:11 <martinlopes_> containerized breakfast tacos
03:23:16 <alexandra> Go fuck yourself
03:23:18 <alexandra> Why would you do this
03:23:31 <slong_> no,no, breakfast burritos....
03:23:31 <alexandra> hahahaha
03:23:32 <martinlopes_> :P
03:23:33 <sgordon__> mmmyes JRobinson__
03:23:55 <JRobinson__> So the docs review guidelines have progressed over the past week.
03:24:05 <Sam-I-Am> review guidelines = important
03:24:07 <Sam-I-Am> they keep us sane
03:24:12 <annegentle> loquacities: not so impromptu, right fifieldt_ -- hooked in with the ops meetup as far as I know
03:24:34 <JRobinson__> Indeed, there are some important points there.
03:24:53 <annegentle> oh unless fifieldt_ hasn't heard about it yet, which is totally probable.
03:25:14 <fifieldt_> thanks annegentle, unfortunately I haven't. I've got a competing meeting in San Francisco on the 27th, so any details would be great to see if I can shift things around:)
03:25:21 <annegentle> Edgar, Matt, (Sam-I-Am) and Phil (phil_h) and me so far
03:25:40 <JRobinson__> #info Review Guidelines are updated with new content - important reading for docs reviews
03:25:52 <fifieldt_> thinking all day, or ... ?
03:25:55 <loquacities> thanks JRobinson__ :)
03:26:10 <annegentle> fifieldt_: phil's working on a room/area, and I'm looking for Edgar's etherpad now
03:26:54 <fifieldt_> ok, please do let me know'
03:26:58 <fifieldt_> or rather, let the ML know
03:26:59 <fifieldt_> :)
03:27:38 <Sam-I-Am> also... install guide updates making slow progress
03:27:49 <Sam-I-Am> waiting for juno packages to drop
03:28:02 <annegentle> #link  https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/neutron-docs-juno
03:28:24 <annegentle> Sam-I-Am: can you send a note to the ML about the neutron docs happenin' Aug 27?
03:28:31 <annegentle> Sam-I-Am: or I can ask Phil too
03:28:38 <Sam-I-Am> halfway debating replacing ovs with linuxbridge and making nova-net more similar to neutron's arch IF it isnt deprecated.
03:28:55 <annegentle> Sam-I-Am: read today's TC meeting log; I think OVS is preferred
03:29:02 <Sam-I-Am> annegentle: i would if i knew the specifics.
03:29:07 <Sam-I-Am> thats surprising.
03:29:22 <annegentle> #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2014/tc.2014-07-29-20.02.log.html
03:29:54 <annegentle> well, there's two needs: 1) a documented all-open-source solution and 2) multihost
03:30:14 <Sam-I-Am> all-open-source = not-packages?
03:30:15 <annegentle> It's unclear to me still whether both needs are dependent on either other in anyway
03:30:22 <annegentle> driver open source I believe
03:30:29 <sgordon__> Sam-I-Am, it's not that surprising
03:30:32 <annegentle> packages are fine
03:31:25 <Sam-I-Am> sgordon__: whys that?
03:31:30 <Sam-I-Am> ovs is a pos
03:31:38 <sgordon__> Sam-I-Am, sure
03:31:46 <Sam-I-Am> difficult to understand and troubleshoot
03:31:51 <annegentle> I want a tshirt that says "elucidating niggles since 2010"
03:31:52 <sgordon__> Sam-I-Am, but if you were happy with LB you would just be using nova-network
03:31:57 <Sam-I-Am> annegentle: me too!
03:32:16 <Sam-I-Am> sgordon__: neutron+lb ?
03:32:22 <sgordon__> sgordon__, yes
03:32:29 <Sam-I-Am> get the neutrony things without ovs
03:32:39 <sgordon__> sure, but what does that really get you
03:33:06 <Sam-I-Am> sanity?
03:33:06 <sgordon__> that to me is using neutron for the sake of neutron
03:33:18 <annegentle> sgordon__: unless you're out of ipv4 addresses?
03:33:23 <Sam-I-Am> what does ovs get you?
03:33:30 * annegentle not arguing; making sure I understand
03:33:43 <Sam-I-Am> oh no, the ipv6 card :P
03:33:55 <annegentle> Sam-I-Am: non-vendor lockin on hardware?
03:34:05 <annegentle> I think?
03:34:10 <sgordon__> annegentle, that is not really the argument
03:34:20 <sgordon__> annegentle, LB is using the linux bridging that is in the kernel
03:34:24 <sgordon__> nothing closed source about it
03:34:27 <annegentle> sgordon__: ok. I hadn't heard the multihost solution til today
03:34:41 <sgordon__> but most development effort appears to be around OVS
03:34:43 <annegentle> sgordon__: oh I read load balancing
03:34:53 <sgordon__> because it provides capabilities over and above basic linux bridge
03:35:00 <Sam-I-Am> annegentle: when you say documented all-open-source solution, is that like a reference architecture one step better than the one presented in the install guide?
03:35:14 <sgordon__> which is why i say if you were happy with LB why would you be using neutron in the first place from a functionality perspective
03:35:27 <sgordon__> but again, just my opinion
03:35:36 <sgordon__> it's certainly true that OVS is more involved
03:36:06 <sgordon__> i would argue part of that is that it forces people into a new way of thinking about their networking versus being able to use the traditional tools as easily
03:36:11 <Sam-I-Am> in many cases, ovs is doing the same thing as lb... bridging things.
03:36:33 <Sam-I-Am> like what we cover in the install guide, lb would be fine.
03:36:37 <annegentle> Sam-I-Am: really I mean "working/tested" since that's the only way we can document
03:37:11 <Sam-I-Am> annegentle: we can do things like that. just need time and a place to run/test them.
03:37:17 <annegentle> and linux bridging is what nova-network does anyway?
03:37:18 <sgordon__> Sam-I-Am, what we cover in the install guide nova-network would be fine too
03:37:20 <Sam-I-Am> i also wonder if an all-in-one would be useful
03:37:22 <sgordon__> not really the point
03:38:27 <annegentle> Sam-I-Am: I'm still meh on the docs taking on all-in-one; plenty of places for people to find that already
03:38:46 <annegentle> apparently including training, heh
03:38:48 <Sam-I-Am> annegentle: true. just wondering since i see people asking for it.
03:38:58 <Sam-I-Am> i thought training was using our stuff?
03:39:03 <sgordon__> annegentle, tend to agree
03:39:16 <annegentle> Sam-I-Am: not based on this week's meeting
03:39:26 <Sam-I-Am> wat?
03:39:33 <annegentle> Sam-I-Am: or rather, using or stuff, plus making an allinone for trainers...
03:39:43 <sgordon__> they were always supposed to be but even when it was in tree there seemed to be a lot of other content...
03:39:53 <Sam-I-Am> all-in-ones are difficult to visualize and troubleshoot
03:39:53 <annegentle> Sam-I-Am: ask dbite/ dguitarbite for more
03:40:02 <Sam-I-Am> unless you want to use linux containers, then its easier
03:40:05 <Sam-I-Am> but also... containers
03:40:07 <annegentle> sgordon__: your eyes did not deceive you
03:40:14 <sgordon__> none of that knowledge transfers to multihost well either
03:40:24 <sgordon__> since you have no idea which bits to separate or expect collocated
03:40:24 <annegentle> sgordon__: yah
03:40:35 * annegentle is sleepy...
03:40:40 * Sam-I-Am is frustrated
03:40:54 * sgordon__ is a potatoe
03:40:57 <loquacities> we could wrap this up now :)
03:41:01 <Sam-I-Am> this shouldnt be complicated :/
03:41:01 <annegentle> thanks JRobinson__ for the heads up earlier!
03:41:05 <annegentle> and thanks loquacities!
03:41:08 <Sam-I-Am> loquacities: yes, before i 'splode
03:41:09 <loquacities> np
03:41:14 <loquacities> thanks for staying late :)
03:41:18 <loquacities> #endmeeting