14:00:02 #startmeeting glance 14:00:02 Meeting started Thu Mar 9 14:00:02 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is rosmaita. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 14:00:03 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 14:00:05 The meeting name has been set to 'glance' 14:00:07 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-team-meeting-agenda 14:00:17 (that's the agenda) 14:00:23 #topic roll call 14:00:51 \o 14:01:42 light turnout, i know jokke_ is around somewhere, though 14:01:55 sigmavirus has a conflict this morning 14:02:46 o/ 14:02:55 i decided to take some advice from stevelle and timebox the agenda more clearly 14:02:58 o/ 14:03:10 i think we've got 35 min of stuff if i don't talk too much 14:03:19 so i'll wait 2 more min to see who else arrives 14:03:40 so if things run over, we should have time 14:03:45 and know how much 14:05:00 ok, let's get started ... agenda link for anyone who missed it earlier: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-team-meeting-agenda 14:05:18 #topic updates - dates to keep in mind 14:05:27 o/ 14:05:28 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-pike-ptg-roadmap-prelim 14:05:41 you can look at the dates there, i wont' paste here 14:05:51 key things are spec proposal freeze in 2 weeks 14:05:57 spec freeze 2 weeks later 14:06:12 virtual midcycle - no exact date yet, just a week 14:06:27 virtual operators' midcycle - no exact date yet, just a week 14:06:46 #topic updates - docs 14:07:09 asettle , the docs PTL is working with us to reorganize the glance docs 14:07:20 * asettle enters with a dramatic flourish 14:07:21 You rang? 14:07:24 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-pike-ptg-docs 14:07:32 \\o \o/ o// o/7 14:07:35 hey! 14:07:41 So, as per my email last week - we need to split up the work 14:07:58 Each that volunteered - me, jokke_ alex_bash stevelle and rosmaita - we should split up the lifting 14:08:10 Someone take admin, dev ref, etc etc 14:08:12 Noo, there's that much of it? :o 14:08:15 Who can volunteer for what? 14:08:23 jokke_: it's just to split it up and make it go a bit faster :) 14:09:03 before we do that, i have some questions about the admin guide, operations guide, etc 14:09:12 Shoot :) 14:09:24 my key question is who maintains those, and where they exist? 14:09:32 ... oh 14:09:43 https://github.com/openstack/openstack-manuals/tree/master/doc 14:09:44 We do :) 14:09:47 and where are they published to, he said ungrammatically 14:09:53 https://docs.openstack.org/ 14:09:54 Here :) 14:10:07 End User Guide - user guide, ADministration Guide (admin guide) Operations Guide (ops guide) 14:10:15 The docs team looks after this page and everything attached to it 14:10:33 ok, that's good 14:10:35 I apologise, when I was referencing all this content in our session I thought we were on the same page 14:10:39 Now, with that 14:10:59 I don't want a 'dump and run' on behalf of the glance team. The CPL ( alex_bash ) will be in charge of ensuring this content is maintained. 14:11:04 asettle: I think rosmaita was just asleep ... we discussed that there ;) 14:11:27 yes, but i want it written down 14:11:31 Keep in mind though, I think you should keep content related to the ADministration Guide in-tree. As you may or may not know, we'll be doing a project-specific admin guide soon 14:11:44 What is the essential difference between Admin / Ops guides? That drives decisions of what goes where. 14:11:47 rosmaita: the openstack-manuals project has always been around, I'm not too sure what you're asking me to write down? 14:12:14 asettle: i am a very simple person, i need the info i outlined on the etherpad 14:12:19 stevelle: yes, so that's an excellent question and one we're trying to address. At the moment, the admin guide is about the 'operational tasks' whereas the operations guide details 'designing and creating' your cloud 14:12:28 where the stuff is stored, where it's published, what the audience is 14:12:42 we don't see the stuff that's not in our repo 14:12:52 so it's not obvious where there is overlap 14:12:57 which is what we would like to eliminate 14:13:01 No problem :) 14:13:08 I'll have it all detailed when I get a spare mo 14:13:23 thanks, not trying to rush you 14:13:36 No not at all :) we're just a bit all hands on deck with some nova stuff today (ughhhh) 14:13:39 rosmaita: we need to fix our dashboard. I made a query to find glance related docs changes we can work into our dash btw 14:13:55 we can follow that item up later 14:14:00 great 14:14:31 ok, so action items are: 14:14:50 #action asettle will update etherpad with some descriptive info about what the docs team maintains 14:15:05 *nods* got it :) 14:15:20 #everyone look at the etherpad to see how our docs are being reorganized (or proposed to be re-orged) 14:15:30 ok, one more docs topic 14:15:33 the man pages 14:15:45 some distros (ubuntu) package them 14:15:53 but they have tended to languish 14:16:00 Which is interesting 14:16:15 key problem is that the --help from the tools (like glance-manage) and hte man pages aren't quite in sync 14:16:41 do we have bug opened for that? 14:16:41 also, updating for general stuff like what release is out of date too 14:16:59 no bug open yet 14:17:10 there's a patch to update the man pages 14:17:15 there would have to be many bugs 14:17:31 i am thinking maybe a spec-lite to propose a longer term solution? 14:17:41 Question - maybe a silly question - why do the distros use your man pages to package? It doesn't appear that way in other projects. 14:17:57 well, nova has man pages 14:18:04 so there 14:18:05 asettle: because we and they are special :D 14:18:15 but seriously, if we don't provide them, who will? 14:18:19 hahahha did you just 'so there' me rosmaita ?! 14:18:25 :) 14:18:34 THat doesn't explain anything! It's a genuine question. I don't know why they do that tbh 14:18:46 we can ask the packagers 14:18:52 i actually emailed some people 14:18:56 If it comes along the way, that'd be rad to know tbh 14:19:21 the RDO group says that they hate the man pages, were not sorry that you deleted them 14:19:27 they prefer the --help text 14:19:39 Well, that's what I would have thought 14:19:43 but, looking at the man pages, they do contain some contextual info that's missing from--help 14:19:45 (using the help text, that is) 14:19:49 WHy is it mising? 14:19:53 missing* SHould you not be adding it in? 14:19:59 (If htat's a thing) 14:20:01 well, that's an interesting question 14:20:21 it is not a simple thing to do given the way the tools are configured ATM 14:20:22 * stevelle whispers "one source of truth" 14:20:24 I mean, if the issue is that the man pages contain information that the help text doesn't, isn't htat a gap you should fix rather than providing two sets of help information? 14:20:30 * asettle is on board with stevelle rn 14:20:58 rosmaita: should that not be a greater long term bug/fix rather than trying to find another way around it? 14:20:59 I like that answer but hold the opinion lightly right now 14:21:07 asettle: so before everything turned to wannabe Windows PowerShell the documentation and specially the manpages were used to document the behavior of the software and delivered with the software itself so it was available for those who were operating systems without access to online docs and search engines. I guess we're just old-fashioned 14:21:18 Ahhhh! 14:21:22 ^^ that's what i Was looking for :) 14:21:36 It's interesting, no criticisms, promise. Just interested as to why things are they way they are 14:21:53 so here's what i'm wondering 14:22:11 man pages can give you some context about why you would use a tool and maybe some stuff to be aware of 14:22:21 like the implications of using db purge 14:22:29 whereas, --help maybe not 14:22:55 * jokke_ also absolutely hates those 7 screen long --help outputs 14:22:55 what i'd like to see is to somehow fill in the man pages with --help text 14:23:05 i agree, too much --help sucks 14:23:11 ^^ that I could agree with too 14:23:16 but we do want the single source of truth 14:23:48 how about a man page that contains a url? (devils' advocate) 14:23:49 ok, we will return to this later when i ask if anyone wants to investigate this for a decent solution 14:24:05 url to ... ? 14:24:16 html docs that contain more context 14:24:21 stevelle: sure as long as that uri is file:// :P 14:24:36 ok, we'll talk more about this later 14:24:41 ;) 14:24:45 #topic march operators' survey 14:25:08 i've got 2 surveys set up, need feedback on the questions and advice on whihc one to do in march, whihc in april 14:25:17 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-cache-operator-survey 14:25:33 i re-used the etherpad, it actually contains 2 surveys 14:26:04 the topics are owner_is_tenant=False, who does it, and glance-cache, who uses it 14:26:15 what's the deadline for the march survey? 14:26:26 i'd like to send the survey out next week, so please look them over 14:26:42 probably one week after i announce it on the operators' list 14:27:02 this is our glance-specific surevey, so we cna do whatever we want 14:27:18 i am interested in owner_is_tenant ATM, but that's just me 14:27:34 so 14:27:49 #action everyone feedback on https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/glance-cache-operator-survey 14:28:18 any questions? (i boxed this for 5 min figuring the previous topic might run over) 14:28:52 ok, moving along 14:29:02 #topic "owned" topics reports 14:29:23 last week i asked for volunteers to take on specific tasks to make sure they don't fall through the cracks 14:29:56 i'd like to check in, see what people have been up to, and who may need to get some help/someone else to pick up the topic 14:30:14 first up is sigmavirus who is not here 14:30:34 he's got a draft of his release czar process and advice that i've seen 14:30:48 i guess he'll be putting it up as a patch soon, to live somewhere in the dev docs 14:31:12 #topic owned - show_multiple_locations 14:31:32 nikhil was going to work on a spec for this, didn't see him around this morning, though 14:31:55 spec proposal deadline is 2 weeks away, so i'm not worried yet 14:32:12 #topic owned - dev docs for E-M-C db migrations 14:32:21 hemanthm is working on this one 14:32:27 should have a patch up in a bit 14:32:32 excellent 14:32:34 gr8 14:32:57 #topic owned - list of glance deprecated options 14:33:10 hemanthm was working on this, but i think someone else should take it 14:33:46 I can help hemanthm. 14:33:54 sold! 14:34:16 thanks dharinic 14:34:20 question: the next topic was the deprecated options glance is consuming 14:34:37 i guess we decided to combine the two lists? 14:34:45 yes 14:34:51 ok 14:35:17 #topic owned - image import backend 14:35:31 this one is jokke_ , who just put up a bunch of patches before the meeting 14:36:01 jokke_: any requests, other than that people look over the patches ? 14:36:22 would be great to get some comments as well 14:36:39 sorry, i meant "look over" in the sense of "review"! 14:36:59 #everyone review jokke's image import patches 14:37:05 i'll put a list in the weekly emial 14:37:07 *email 14:37:16 any ideas how to improve those, but lets keep in mind this is really the MVP ... lets get those merged as soon as they "work" and we have common agreement that the approach is by the spec 14:37:27 and iterate from that 14:37:43 sounds good 14:37:43 otherwise the patches will just keep existing in my local 14:37:57 and nobody wants that! 14:38:04 indeed 14:38:17 also that dependency chain is nightmare to maintain and rebase 14:38:55 they always are 14:39:13 ok, next topic 14:39:20 #topic Boston "Forum" planning 14:39:38 i know we just finished the PTG, but it's Boston summit planning time 14:39:51 foundation missed an opportunity by not having this premier in Rome 14:39:53 actually, we devs will be at the "Forum" 14:40:01 stevelle: ++ 14:40:23 * jokke_ has no idea yet if I will be there or not 14:40:31 the deadline is already passed for talk submittions 14:40:33 anyway, the info about the forum, what it is, and what facilities are available is here: 14:40:44 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/BOS-Glance-brainstorming 14:41:00 so, what's weird, is that while the summit talk submissions has closed 14:41:04 the forum has not 14:41:20 and the TC is asking the community to propose stuff from which they will select 14:41:29 with the proposals being on etherpad, i think 14:41:41 you can read the details, i put links on the etherpad linked above 14:42:28 anyway, i don't know if i've got travel support to go yet either 14:42:46 but, don't let not going interfere with proposing some exciting topics! 14:43:20 ok, that's all i had there 14:43:41 i should take a quick poll, though ... how many people here understand what the "Forum" is? 14:43:53 _o_ 14:44:12 I think I do, but probably not the sanctioned answer 14:44:31 yeah, not sure what i meant to ask there 14:44:31 * hemanthm raises hand half-way 14:44:39 i guess my question is: 14:44:58 if you had travel support, would you attend the Boston Forum? 14:45:07 * rosmaita not sure 14:45:32 (though i guess i'm supposed to, to gather all the feedback from operators and users) 14:45:33 What is Boston Forum 14:45:36 * stevelle leaning no 14:45:58 forum != summit? 14:45:59 s/Forum/Forum?/ 14:46:04 jokke_: this explains it a bit: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2017-March/113115.html 14:46:06 https://www.openstack.org/summit/boston-2017/ over May 8-11, 2017 btw 14:46:10 it's a part of the summit 14:46:11 alex_bash: that's the new name after PTG split 14:46:29 supposed to be non-marketing, allow for feedback to dev teams from ops and users 14:46:40 So Forum is more like a dev meeting thing? 14:46:58 like the ptg but with more listening and less design planning 14:47:04 (i think) 14:47:06 dev-dev is PTG 14:47:09 ahh, cool. 14:47:13 dev-ops/users is Forum 14:47:36 hemanthm: that's a good one-line description 14:47:42 forum is one of the tracks at summit 14:47:50 yes, I'd likely be there if I get travels arranged 14:47:54 the way I understand it at least 14:48:10 stevelle: yeah, possibly. I could be wrong 14:48:22 stevelle: my impression was that it's a special thing, not a track 14:48:25 but i could be wrong, too 14:48:35 https://www.openstack.org/summit/boston-2017/summit-categories/ there we go 14:48:40 it's listed on there 14:49:40 yep, looks like you're right 14:49:46 alex_bash: forget what I said earlier :) 14:50:22 hemanthm: i think you're right, it's a summit track for dev-ops/users 14:50:33 part of the summit is probably most accurate, track can mean something else 14:50:36 there is a category for developers seperately too. 14:50:47 just that being held concurrently with everything else ... who knows how it will work? 14:50:49 those are cloud consumers in this case dharinic 14:50:53 oops thats for cloud apps 14:51:00 anyway, back on topic ... 14:51:18 please add stuff to the etherpad so that we've got something to propose 14:51:35 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/BOS-Glance-brainstorming 14:51:47 and it looks like if have mis-esstimated time 14:52:02 i wlll postpone looking for new owners to next week 14:52:08 #topic open discussion 14:52:23 stevelle: had a suggestion about dashboards? 14:53:11 the glance dashboard should probably include a slice of openstack-manuals related to glance 14:53:54 I cooked up a query for it last friday I think, I can dig that back out but I would like to see the dashboard folks use updated to include awareness of docs 14:54:51 any thoughts? 14:54:55 stevelle: you mean this dashboard: http://gerrit-dash-creator.readthedocs.io/en/latest/dashboards/dashboard_glance.html 14:55:18 rosmaita: pretty sure that's the one, yes 14:55:35 wasn't that Flavio's gift for us? 14:55:55 yes, and i for one have been un-good about using it 14:56:09 it's the second link in my browser toolbar 14:56:25 do folks have custom ones? 14:57:12 (while we're looking, could someone please take care of https://review.openstack.org/#/c/420038/ ?) 14:57:56 where do these come from: https://review.openstack.org/#/admin/projects/openstack/glance,dashboards ? 14:58:02 my thought is that i agree with stevelle that it would be good to get the docs we are supposed to keep an eye on into this dashboard 14:58:37 alex_bash: i don't know 14:59:08 +1 14:59:20 ok, we are almost out of time ... the ocata postmortem had a split result on whether the priorities emails are worth doing, i will break the tie and continue them 14:59:30 30 sec ... 14:59:56 ok, thanks everyone! 15:00:01 #endmeeting