20:13:20 <mattgriffin> #startmeeting ha-guide 20:13:20 <openstack> Meeting started Thu May 7 20:13:20 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mattgriffin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 20:13:21 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 20:13:23 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'ha_guide' 20:17:23 <megm_> Hello? 20:19:02 <mattgriffin> megm_, hi. ok. ready 20:19:38 <mattgriffin> megm_, ok. first review the TOC and most recent changes? 20:20:03 <mattgriffin> #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/HAGuideImprovements/TOC 20:20:42 <megm_> I'm concerned about including all the controller details in the intro. 20:21:18 <megm_> Also, the info about stateless/stateful, etc is now an xref to the old ha-guide that this document is replacing 20:21:48 <megm_> And a link to Mirantis Fuel doc for the HA Controller role description 20:23:33 <mattgriffin> megm_, gotcha. i think the TOC seems to be turning somewhat into the actual HA Guide document 20:24:09 <megm_> Yes, and some great additions. But we need an agreed-on structure to set up the files 20:25:50 <mattgriffin> megm_, is your concern about the controller details found in this section? https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/HAGuideImprovements/TOC#Redundancy_and_failover 20:25:55 <megm_> I'm thinking that we should move everything from "Controller node" to the "Stateless/stateful..." section to a separate "HA Controller Node Intro" 20:26:52 <megm_> Yes. And, do we have the intro to the HA controller before the "Basic Environment" and "Basic HA facilites" sections? 20:28:05 <mattgriffin> no. i think the HA Controller content should be after the Basic Environment and Basic HA Facilities sections 20:28:29 <megm_> I've been concerned about the details of Basic HA facilities. Perhaps that section should be "Making the Controller Highly Available"? 20:28:37 <mattgriffin> seems better to cover the basics first and then drill into the components 20:29:18 <megm_> Is Evkonst here? 20:30:24 <megm_> matt, yes, basics first, but are the basics to install the O/S on each node, etc, or to understand what the HA Controller is, etc? 20:31:13 <megm_> And we are constrained by our agreement to follow the structure of the Install Guide as much as possible... 20:33:35 <mattgriffin> megm_, they start with Basic Environment 20:33:53 <mattgriffin> unless that's changing 20:35:20 <mattgriffin> megm_, if anything, the controller node info should be part of the Basic Environment section (like they do in the Install Guide) 20:35:28 <megm_> I'm just looking at what now shows as "HA Intro and Concepts" -- we have "Redundancy and failover" and then we go through all the Controller services, Hardware, Routing, etc before we get to the active/active vs active passive and quorum info 20:36:27 <megm_> Yes, it may be that what we currently call "Basic Environment" should be "HA Controller" 20:36:51 <mattgriffin> megm_, i think the information listed at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/HAGuideImprovements/TOC#HA_Intro_and_Concepts is more of definitions rather than specifics on setting, yes? 20:36:55 <megm_> Rather, "Basic HA facilities" -- or maybe the two "Basic" sections are combined 20:37:42 <megm_> Do those definitions belong in the intro, before the intro to HA concepts? That is my question. The material is great but I think it does not belong in the Intro 20:37:43 <mattgriffin> we could combine them 20:38:23 <megm_> I was hoping that Evkonst would be here to explain his/her vision 20:39:23 <mattgriffin> megm_, gotcha.... how about we leave an "HA Intro" section and have a uber-Basic section that includes the Basic content of today (in the 2 sections) as well as the definitions to pair with any, for example, diagrams that might be in the Basic section? 20:39:39 <megm_> Soounds reasonable. 20:40:12 <megm_> What really matters right now is that we know what the main chapters are so we can set up the files -- a main file and a subdirectory of files for subsections for each 20:40:20 <mattgriffin> megm_, ok. i'll reorg the TOC and keep the great content that's already there 20:40:25 <mattgriffin> megm_, ack 20:40:34 <megm_> Cool if you want to do it. 20:41:10 <megm_> Is anyone here other than Matt and me? 20:41:35 <megm_> I'm happy to do the work -- just wanted the discussion. 20:41:42 <mattgriffin> #action mattgriffin reorg the TOC with an "HA Intro" section and a "Basic" section which includes the Basic content of today (in the 2 sections) as well as the definitions 20:41:52 <mattgriffin> megm_, np 20:42:26 <megm_> Do you want me to rework the TOC or do you want to? I'm willing but you are welcome to it 20:42:50 <mattgriffin> megm_, can i take a first pass and then ping you? 20:43:03 <megm_> Absolutely! 20:43:05 <mattgriffin> cool 20:43:32 <mattgriffin> i've got another meeting in 15 min so move on to other agenda topics? 20:43:37 <mattgriffin> megm_, ^ 20:43:50 <megm_> Yes, move on. 20:43:57 <megm_> How much can we do without the others? 20:44:31 <mattgriffin> megm_, let's jump to the last 2 items on the agenda 20:44:52 <mattgriffin> xrefs to Install Guide ... you brought this concern up 20:45:20 <mattgriffin> is this something that we should prototype an approach and confirm how we're thinking this will work? 20:45:26 <megm_> I was hoping that Nick knew what to do ;-) 20:45:38 <mattgriffin> megm_, ok. making that an action item 20:46:17 <megm_> I don't think we have a choice -- the right way is to use the intersphinx facilities but those are not set up so we're going to have to use html links between the two guides 20:46:20 <mattgriffin> #action nickchase: are there potential pitfalls with using xrefs to link to the Install Guide? should we build a prototype? 20:46:36 <mattgriffin> ok 20:47:07 <mattgriffin> hmm... maybe someone will have a bright idea on that topic in Vancouver b/c it sounds like a big need 20:47:08 <megm_> Just FYI, if you are writing something today, what is the URL for a new chapter in the Install Guide? 20:47:25 <megm_> That is the initial problem... 20:48:09 <megm_> For the last item, "Next steps" are to convert docbook->rst, set up new chapter files/subdirectories, and put existing content in the right place. Nick had said he would do that. 20:48:44 <megm_> Only question is do we commit to a merge of the old info into the new structure with NO fixes? 20:48:50 <mattgriffin> #action convert docbook->rst, set up new chapter files/subdirectories, and put existing content in the right place. ... nick? 20:49:14 <Shamail> hi. 20:49:32 <megm_> Hi, Shamail! 20:49:33 <mattgriffin> megm_, not sure. maybe better to start from scratch? 20:49:36 <mattgriffin> hi Shamail 20:50:33 <megm_> Matt, I have no objections to starting from scratch, but all along, everyone has been adamant about the primacy of preserving the old material. Is this a change in strategy? 20:52:03 <mattgriffin> megm_, well we'd keep as much of the old material as was relevant. were there objections to copy/paste text to do that? 20:52:12 <mattgriffin> well copy/paste/edit 20:52:49 <megm_> I'm pretty open as to which strategy we take, but I think we need to agree on one 20:53:09 <mattgriffin> megm_, i'll check with the PTL and core reviewers for direction 20:53:44 <megm_> See Step 2 in https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-haguide-update-next-steps -- that should be modified if we're changing strategy 20:54:19 * mattgriffin clicks 20:56:05 <megm_> I hate six-way merges ;-) 20:56:06 <mattgriffin> megm_, sounds like copy/paste/edit to me 20:56:09 <mattgriffin> haha 20:56:37 <mattgriffin> megm_, but i'll check to confirm 20:56:42 <megm_> Nick, are you here? Hooray! 20:56:55 <nickchase> wow, what a reception. :) 20:56:57 <nickchase> hey there. 20:57:01 <nickchase> am I late? 20:57:06 <mattgriffin> welcome nickchase 20:57:06 <nickchase> I thought it was starting in 5 minutes? 20:57:15 <mattgriffin> yes. started 55 min ago :) 20:57:22 <nickchase> (facepalm) 20:57:23 <mattgriffin> did the time change again? 20:57:25 <megm_> We've been playing What Would Nick Do? Please tell us! ;-) 20:57:30 <nickchase> hahahahaha 20:57:34 <nickchase> OK, so I can tell you: 20:57:41 <nickchase> So here's my update: 20:57:56 <nickchase> 1) The spec's in and approved, finally, thank you very much Meg for helping there! 20:58:09 <nickchase> 2) We have a bunch of content that's been added to the wiki, as you may have seen 20:58:29 <nickchase> it needs to be edited, smoothed out, etc. and co-credited to its original authors, but at least we have something to start with. 20:58:30 <Shamail> Lol megm_ 20:58:58 <nickchase> So that's my update. 20:59:11 <megm_> And what happens next? 20:59:15 <nickchase> there's more content coming but that was what we could get done by today. 20:59:48 <megm_> I really think we need to get content under git/gerrit and out of the etherpad -- it's starting to get ugly there! ;-) 20:59:51 <mattgriffin> nickchase: megm_ and i had some concerns about where the new content was slotting into the TOC... 21:00:12 <mattgriffin> we need to talk about that... but i need to run to a meeting now 21:00:20 <mattgriffin> megm_, +1 21:00:28 <nickchase> hey, you guys go for it; my job was to rally people. :) 21:00:30 <nickchase> have run 21:00:33 <nickchase> fun* 21:00:35 <nickchase> sorry I was late 21:00:35 <mattgriffin> :) 21:00:38 <mattgriffin> nickchase, np 21:00:38 <megm_> Matt, should Nick, Shamail, and I continue the meeting? 21:01:05 <mattgriffin> megm_, you can... i'll leave the window open and end it when you're done for the log... just ping me 21:01:14 <Shamail> I have to leave soon too 21:01:22 <megm_> Nick and Shamail, does that work for you? 21:01:36 <Shamail> +1 on moving to git 21:01:44 <nickchase> +1 also 21:01:50 <nickchase> I do not have time to do it, though 21:02:03 <nickchase> not the next 3 weeks, anyway 21:02:21 <megm_> Nick, are you going to set up files? I'm willing to do some work but I need a little guidance 21:03:09 <nickchase> the setup is done 21:03:13 <nickchase> Andreas did it 21:03:21 <megm_> We don't have chapter files and subdirectories 21:03:28 <nickchase> there are no subdirectories. 21:03:31 <Shamail> Awesome, can you please link? 21:03:36 <nickchase> I'm happy to give guidance 21:03:51 <nickchase> it's in the ha-guide repo, probably under "source" 21:04:00 <megm_> Are we converting the RST files and locating them in the new files? I thought that was the plan but Matt now seems to think otherwise 21:04:00 <nickchase> I haven't seen it myself; I'm taking Andreas' word for it :) 21:04:11 <Shamail> Okay. I'll look in the existing area. 21:04:18 <nickchase> No, what we're doing is... 21:04:31 <nickchase> putting in the new content, then filling in the TOC where there's old content that fits. 21:04:47 <nickchase> That was how we "sold" that we needed to do this in RST rather than Docbook. 21:06:03 <megm_> So do we know what the main chapters are? I made a list a long time ago but it may need to be revised... 21:06:11 <nickchase> they're in the TOC. 21:07:17 * nickchase just updated his calendar. (facepalm) 21:07:37 <megm_> High Availability Concepts 21:07:37 <megm_> Hardware Setup 21:07:37 <megm_> Install O/S on Nodes 21:07:37 <megm_> Basic Infrastructure 21:07:37 <megm_> Configure Networking on Each Node 21:07:38 <megm_> Install and Configure MySQL 21:07:38 <nickchase> the RST files are not hierarchical like the docbook ones are 21:07:40 <megm_> RabitMQ Message Broker 21:07:41 <nickchase> they're topic-based. 21:07:42 <megm_> Keystone Identity Services 21:07:44 <megm_> Glance image service 21:07:47 <megm_> Cinder Block Storage Service 21:07:48 <nickchase> loosk right 21:07:49 <megm_> Swift Object Storage 21:07:51 <megm_> Storage Backend Options 21:07:53 <megm_> Nova Compute Service 21:07:55 <megm_> Heat Orchestration 21:07:58 <megm_> Ceilometer Telemetry and MongoDB 21:08:00 <megm_> Database Service (Trove) 21:08:02 <megm_> Sahara 21:08:04 <megm_> Other 21:08:06 <megm_> ~ 21:08:16 <Shamail> Looks good 21:08:27 <nickchase> +1 21:08:37 <megm_> Should the sections for Controller node services be combined into a single "HA Controller" section with subsections? 21:08:40 <nickchase> if you look in the wiki, there's a bunch of content in there 21:09:07 <nickchase> I don't understand the question 21:10:07 <megm_> The list of "chapters" I submitted... Do we want to group the Controller stuff or leave each individual? 21:10:10 <Shamail> That might make sense... Effectively can we make a "HA controller" section, document common items for general controller HA, and then have sub-sections for service specific requirements (keystone, cinder, etc.) 21:11:18 <Shamail> I'm sure there will be common things that apply to controller nodes in general. This might prevent repeating or extensive referencing. 21:11:22 <megm_> Yes, Shamail. So maybe we have "HA Controller," "HA Storage", "HA Compute" 21:11:36 <nickchase> I think taht you should leave it where it is 21:12:00 <nickchase> because we hashed out this TOC pretty thoroughly, didn't we? Or did I miss something? 21:12:40 <nickchase> I mean, it's designed to track the install guide. 21:12:49 <megm_> I thought we had but Evknost made massive changes -- added a whole bunch of stuff to Intro that I think may belong in an "Introl toController"' section 21:12:50 <nickchase> So I'm assuming that the TOC follows that. 21:12:52 <Shamail> We did. I thought we validated the topics not necessarily the organization of it. If that was a part of the review too then I agree that we should leave it. 21:12:57 <nickchase> ahhhhhh. 21:13:06 <nickchase> OK, now THAT makes sense; 21:13:16 <nickchase> Intro to controller seems a perfectly reasonable thing 21:13:26 <Shamail> :-) 21:13:27 <nickchase> I thought you were talking about within the body 21:13:34 <megm_> I'm not sure of anything! Maybe we just need to grab SOME structure and create files! We can always move stuff later 21:13:49 <nickchase> :) 21:13:55 <nickchase> OK, so here's what I think: 21:13:56 <Shamail> We have consensus! (Can we have consensus on the fact that we actually have it?) 21:14:19 <nickchase> If we're saying take what's there and chuck it in, and combine the intro to controller stuff into one section, then yes. 21:14:37 <megm_> Do we add "Intro to Controller", "Intro to Storage", etc as part of (or right after) the Intro to HA concepts and before they start installation? 21:14:47 <nickchase> +1 21:14:53 <Shamail> megm_: +1 21:14:59 <nickchase> after 21:15:07 <nickchase> no, part of 21:15:08 <nickchase> sorry 21:15:09 <nickchase> part of 21:15:13 <megm_> Or do we do basic installation, then "Intro to Controller" then "How to HA the Controller services" sections....? 21:15:36 <megm_> nick, part of intro? 21:15:52 <nickchase> I mean the following: 21:16:09 <nickchase> 1) Intro to controller, intro to storage, etc. should be part of Intro to HA. 21:16:33 <megm_> nickchase, I can +1 that 21:16:34 <nickchase> 2) After the intro, we track the normal install, pointing out the places where things are different for an HA install. 21:16:44 <nickchase> that's what I mean. 21:17:06 <megm_> Nick, what do you mean that RST files are not hierarchical? Do you mean just one big file for each chapter without subdirectories? 21:17:43 <Shamail> That's perfect. +1 21:18:10 <nickchase> I mean that we're not doing subdirectories 21:18:24 <nickchase> all the chapters and sections and subsections are in one big source directory 21:18:37 <nickchase> and they're not named like the docbook. for example... 21:18:45 <megm_> Really? Aren't we going to trip over each other a lot with so many people contributing? 21:19:25 <nickchase> in docbook, we'd have section_intro_ha.xml and section_intro_ha_compute.xml. In RST we have only intro_ha.rst and intro_compute.rst 21:19:46 <nickchase> I prefer hierarchical too, but I'm overruled on this. 21:19:52 <nickchase> we have to let git do its thing here. 21:20:06 <megm_> Ah, it is written from a higher source, you're saying? 21:20:14 <nickchase> indeed. 21:21:01 <megm_> Cool, then we're set. It does make set-up easier ;-) 21:21:22 <Shamail> I have to drop off. Sorry. Have a great weekend! Are we meeting next week or Vancouver is the next one? 21:21:33 <nickchase> I can't meet in vancouver 21:21:41 <nickchase> next week, I assume 21:21:45 <megm_> Would you have an hour or so early next week to give me some guidance and then I could set up files? Unless Shamail can do it without guidance, of course 21:22:04 <nickchase> if you need me that's fine; check my calendar. 21:22:22 <Shamail> I can't either... So the 1st option is best. 21:22:45 <megm_> It would be good to have the files set up before Vancouver --and before we get more content in ehterpad! 21:22:54 <Shamail> Alright, see you next week then. Take care Nick chase and megm_ 21:23:02 <megm_> Bye 21:23:18 <megm_> Nick, is the Network Guide set up correctly? Can I study that for some clues? 21:23:32 <megm_> Like for file names and such? 21:26:42 <nickchase> yes 21:26:45 <nickchase> do that 21:29:32 <megm_> I added list of chapters to https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-haguide-update-next-steps 21:33:09 <nickchase> ok, great. 21:33:18 <nickchase> is there anything els eyou need from me? 21:36:10 <megm_> No, let's call it done for today. I'll do some studying and ping you for some guidance... 21:36:23 <megm_> I'll ping matt to close the minutes. 21:36:57 <mattgriffin> #endmeeting