20:00:53 #startmeeting heat 20:00:54 Meeting started Wed May 29 20:00:53 2013 UTC. The chair is shardy. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 20:00:55 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 20:00:58 The meeting name has been set to 'heat' 20:01:00 o/ 20:01:10 howdy y'all 20:01:14 hi 20:01:16 here 20:01:21 meep 20:01:23 o/ 20:01:24 Hi! 20:01:57 asalkeld around? 20:02:00 o/ 20:02:03 hi 20:02:04 hello :) 20:02:19 O/ 20:02:42 hi all :) 20:02:48 #topic Review last week's actions 20:03:09 Heya 20:03:11 hello 20:03:13 hello! 20:03:21 #info shardy PoC HOT patch 20:03:41 so I did this, but I'm now preferring zaneb's followup patch 20:03:51 i prefer zanes as well 20:03:58 #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/30405/ 20:04:18 #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/30439/ 20:04:25 I added an item to the agenda to discuss this 20:04:30 fyi, randallburt is out of office today, not feeling well. 20:04:37 Ok, does anyone *not* think zaneb's approach is the way to go? 20:04:45 There seems to be a consensus on the new template class 20:04:56 I'd like to see some more input on my mailing list post 20:04:59 I like it but it does mean we're committing to keeping the template translation in the engine 20:05:26 shardy eventually we need to move cfn out 20:05:28 hiya 20:05:29 zaneb: the one on file inclusion? 20:05:33 so it is a start 20:05:35 stevebaker: yes 20:06:02 asalkeld: not sure I agree with your post 20:06:15 asalkeld: yeah, or move the CFNisms into a CFNTemplate class 20:06:24 zaneb: I prefer some kind of client-side file aggregation to zipping up template files 20:06:26 asalkeld: wouldn't it be better to have the engine mechanics independent of the template format? 20:06:30 zaneb: tl:dr +1 20:06:43 asalkeld: rather than just tying it to HOT instead of CFN 20:06:51 no 20:06:56 lol 20:07:21 I think there is still heaps of time to sort it out 20:07:31 get this patch in already 20:07:33 zaneb: I really like the idea of decoupling the engine from template details, and just accessing Template class properties 20:07:53 i thi k the template format is pretty closely tied to the engi e so this seems fi e 20:08:09 SpamapS: lost your 'n' key? 20:08:22 time for new keyboard imo ;) 20:08:22 Ok, shall we continue discussions on the ML, and I'll abandon the template-mangle patch? 20:08:25 I seriously doubt it is possible for details not leak out 20:08:27 SpamapS: broken right thumb? 20:08:49 (of the Template class) 20:08:54 but we will see 20:09:08 Right that doesn't mean we shouldn't try though 20:09:12 if people have specific issues, pls update https://review.openstack.org/#/c/30439/ 20:09:37 asalkeld: you may be right. therve: I agree 20:09:47 therve, totally think we need both format's in now 20:10:07 just whether or not we kick cfn out 20:10:13 (of the engine) 20:10:27 asalkeld, Agreed. We can improve things as they move on 20:10:31 at some later point 20:10:39 asalkeld: vote it off the island :) 20:10:47 Right now it's a bit too abstract to figure out all the problems we'll encounter 20:10:48 yea 20:10:51 asalkeld: I guess we can decide that later :) 20:10:56 for sure 20:11:07 fwiw... 20:11:46 I think moving from 2 Template classes in engine to cfn translation layer in API is easier than moving from HOT translation layer in API to cfn translation layer in API 20:12:02 zaneb: agree 20:12:31 Lets get the "superset model" in the engine, then work out where the template transformations live later 20:12:50 +1 20:12:55 +1 20:12:56 +1 20:13:02 #info action asalkeld wiki/bp re infra heat usage 20:13:05 (I +2'd it) 20:13:16 IIRC this happened, asalkeld got a link? 20:13:23 mmm 20:13:36 I can't even remember this 20:13:41 wow getting old 20:14:00 O, ok - hold on 20:14:03 IIRC you did it immediately after the meeting 20:14:08 (it is 6am) 20:14:10 use the wiki related links 20:14:33 Ok, lets forget the link and move on :) 20:14:37 this was clarkb wanting to use heat for logstash for infra stuff 20:14:38 https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/on-public-clouds 20:14:43 That one? 20:15:05 I think it was another one 20:15:26 that's it 20:15:39 #topic h1 release status 20:15:51 so h1 branched today, nice work everyone :) 20:16:09 few things bumped to h2 but most of the stuff planned landed 20:16:24 I think we sort-of got parallel-launch in :) 20:16:30 except for nested templates 20:17:00 zaneb: yeah, sorry we didn't manage to get the reviews in for the final few 20:17:07 nice job anyways :) 20:17:13 np, was a pretty good effort 20:17:17 so many patches... 20:17:25 shardy, Any highlights on other things that got pushed? 20:17:31 * zaneb has fingers crossed for no more rebases 20:17:56 therve: mainly a few quantum related bugfixes which are in-progress 20:17:58 zaneb rebases more fun then java fedora package reviews :) 20:18:12 sdake_: I'll drink to that 20:18:26 going to be a busy h2 tho by the looks of it :) 20:18:34 shardy: 'milestone-proposed' is the branch, I assume? 20:18:53 o/ sorry late 20:18:55 #link https://launchpad.net/heat/+milestone/havana-2 20:19:18 zaneb: yep, then we have couple of days (until tomorrow IIRC) where backported critical fixes can be proposed 20:19:32 before the release is made final 20:19:49 weird system, but ok :) 20:19:52 which takes us nicely on to: 20:20:01 #topic 2013.1.2 stable release 20:20:20 So I'm thinking we skip this as we don't have any backported fixes to grizzly/stable 20:20:40 Does anyone have anything they want to flag as backport-potential? 20:20:51 +1 for skipping 20:21:06 the main one is the latest-boto v4 signatures thing, but we need keystoneclient release before we can backport that 20:21:31 (as SpamapS pointed out earlier) 20:22:09 So if anyone wants to propose stable backports at any point, see this wiki: 20:22:16 #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/StableBranch 20:22:35 #topic heat-core proposed changes 20:22:41 So two things 20:23:06 firstly, I'm proposing to remove shadower and Slower from heat-core as they're no longer actively contributing/reviewing 20:23:24 here are the stats for the last 90 and 30 days: 20:23:28 http://fpaste.org/15176/69819561/ 20:23:38 any objections? 20:23:55 obviously we can add them again if they start working on Heat in the future 20:24:15 +1 20:24:18 so just to clarify 20:24:23 and I agree they should be removed 20:24:27 interesting, SpamapS is the harshest reviewer :D 20:24:28 but what are your criteria for core 20:24:39 i didnt even know who they were 20:24:39 zaneb: I'd thought you have been :) 20:24:52 close second ;) 20:24:59 sdake_: so criteria is (IMHO): 20:25:00 What's the requirements to join core? 20:25:01 SpamapS they did some early work on heat 20:25:06 core membership is for reviews more than anything else 20:25:25 Active reviewer, with consistent and well thought out downvotes (not just +1 on everything) 20:25:57 (but helps to code to know the code) 20:25:57 Send some patches which prove you have some familiarity with the codebase and we can assess code-style/ability 20:26:19 Be active in #heat, get to know us/discuss stuff 20:26:40 attend these meetings from time to time and contribute to the discussions 20:26:53 also ideally chime in on openstack-dev Heat related threads 20:26:57 looks like therve is getting close 20:27:11 asalkeld: that was going to be my second point! :) 20:27:20 So I'd like to propose therve for heat-core 20:27:28 oops, sorry to spoil 20:27:37 +1 20:27:38 I think we're keeping up with review load at the moment (HOT template reviews are pulling down our averages ;) ) 20:27:40 I think typically projects propose on ml 20:27:44 and ppl vote there so there is a record 20:27:49 he's done quite a lot of high-quality reviews lately, sent some nice patches, and has been actively involved day-to-day 20:27:52 \o/ 20:28:01 +1, but I believe this is supposed to happen on the mailing list 20:28:08 sdake_: Yes, we'll do the formal thing on the ML too 20:28:26 just wanted to check there was consensus since we're discussing heat-core anyway 20:28:34 need more reviewers definately 20:28:37 sounds good to me 20:28:53 yep, agreed 20:29:17 Ok, I'll send a propose email to openstack-dev later, please add your response there 20:29:23 yay therve :) 20:29:41 radix: oh hello :) 20:29:43 Thanks, I'll try to prove worthy! :) 20:29:46 hello :) 20:29:46 Yep, nice work therve, thanks :) 20:30:05 #topic Proposal: add public cloud resource types in-tree 20:30:13 sdake, was this yours? 20:30:24 I think it was stevebaker 20:30:31 there is a link 20:30:42 There was an IRC discussion on the subject that happened mostly in PST-friendly hours 20:30:46 so, by in-tree do we mean /contrib? 20:30:49 if so then +1 20:30:57 zaneb, no in-tree 20:31:09 asalkeld's shardy 20:31:11 like first class 20:31:38 dang, finding link... 20:31:59 its the same link posted above for the action items 20:31:59 https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/on-public-clouds#Proposal_to_keep_Public_OpenStack_cloud_resources_in-tree 20:32:30 stevebaker: care to give us a summary of the proposal? 20:32:41 I think we should do what the kernel does, encourage plugins to be in-tree by: 20:32:41 so to me important point is: So not every public cloud on the planet, but rather where there are developers that are actively participating in the Heat commutity. 20:32:44 1. not guaranteeing a stable internal api 20:32:46 2. committing to updating in-tree plugins whenever internal api does change 20:33:06 I like that stevebaker +1 20:33:19 +1 on that 20:33:21 it works for the kernel 20:33:28 to me better in tree, than out 20:33:30 What exact example of this are we thinking of? 20:33:32 kernel has a million maintainers 20:33:44 SpamapS: hpcloud and rackspace 20:34:04 swift 20:34:04 i believe asalkeld's proposal was essentially to put a hpcloud and rackspace at top of resources directory 20:34:05 so, if internal API breaks, there's no guarantee that in-tree resources get updated and will work? Isn't that the argument for them to be out-of-tree? 20:34:07 otoh we shouldn't be encouraging vendors to have non-compatible OpenStack APIs in the first place 20:34:12 I've got no real objection provided they're actively maintained 20:34:20 and let them go wild with a "MAINTAINERS" contact 20:34:20 don't want to ship stuff which is broken ;) 20:34:24 stevebaker: but what special sauce would they have that isn't just "openstack" ? 20:34:45 kebray: 2. committing to updating in-tree plugins whenever internal api does change 20:34:49 Yeah, if the internal API breaks, we would commit to updating the in-tree resources 20:35:10 zaneb: we all know APIs never change :-) 20:35:17 SpamapS: I would assume that as these public clouds are updated then legacy workarounds could be taken out of our tree 20:35:18 swift 20:35:21 my only major heartburn with the proposal is we have no way to validate or test it 20:35:28 (sorry) 20:35:55 sdake_ they can add special mocks 20:35:56 sdake, I'd like the tempest tests to be run against different clouds 20:36:00 ideally, those contributing these would provide provider-agnostic resources in the main resources area 20:36:13 can anyone explain some of the reasons for provider-specific resources? 20:36:17 Hacks. 20:36:27 weird auth 20:36:33 no cloudinit 20:36:39 +1 for hacks. +2 for putting them in /contrib 20:36:39 stevebaker: I guess I'm missing where they need any special "not openstack" things right now. :-P 20:36:44 and limited implementations? 20:36:50 rackspace images don't have cloudinit on them today. 20:37:22 No cloud-init has its genesis in rackspace, but it could very well be something that other private cloud operators do... 20:37:24 so shardy my hope is these are short lived 20:37:29 rackspace also has no way to upload images - so there is no real workaround without rs specific hacks to resources 20:38:12 sdake_ yea, you have to modify an existing one and "save" it 20:38:20 sdake_: HP is the same. 20:38:22 Ok, not having cloud-init sounds pretty limiting to me, but if that's the status-quo then I guess we go with the hacks dir :) 20:38:23 I think that the hacks related to simple things like getting images up will hopefully go away, but there's always going to be some potential for vendor-specific magic stuff 20:38:24 just see a future where there are 20 server plugins, 20 storage plugins, 20 different type of quantum plugins etc 20:38:24 becomes especially intrusive if we change around the dsl 20:38:26 The workaround is snapshot an image, since you can't upload. 20:38:57 I don't see this as hacks, but just drivers. 20:39:09 sdake to me worse if they are out of tree 20:39:25 (we then need much stronger api versioning) 20:39:37 Ok, do we need to start a ML discussion on this? 20:39:39 Yes agreed, in-tree drivers will stay more useful to more people. 20:39:55 Do we need to specify more carefully how it would look, so that people can be comfortable with exactly how it's split up? 20:40:02 me thinking it would make infra's life easier 20:40:14 lets decide when the first patch lands 20:40:18 We're mostly nodding in agreement about the base principles. 20:40:44 Ok, well lets move on for now, and if necessary follow up on the ML 20:40:52 #topic Proposal (sdake): For [rs-dsl] or [open-api-dsl] require +2 from asalkeld, jpeeler, sdake, stevebaker, zaneb with +A from shardy 20:41:04 (and therve possibly:) 20:41:15 ? 20:41:21 so basic idea here is since dsl is huge change to everything in heat 20:41:24 and we have to live with it 20:41:35 we should all express our agreement in the patch 20:41:39 vs just couple core devs 20:42:01 Perhaps we just call it a "majority" of devs need to weigh in with +2's? 20:42:06 agree with the rationale 20:42:10 So I think this may be a bit hard to manage, I agree everything should be well reviewed but will this make the review cycle unmanageble? 20:42:12 personally I think the new dsl is pretty sweet 20:42:17 mm, so how do you figure out if a patch is dsl affecting 20:42:19 I don't want to set a precedent that we all have to agree or even review big decisions. 20:42:24 only for the "first" patch that lands shardy 20:42:47 however, I don't think we should be committing the "end-state" DSL example at all 20:43:00 we should have an example template that evolves with the code 20:43:11 But I do like the idea that we would step back and not "approve" until at least half of the core team has said +2. 20:43:14 zaneb: I completely agree, incremental evolution 20:43:29 is this for the heat-template patch or code in heat? 20:43:48 asalkeld: I think we're talking about the patch 20:43:49 asalkeld: read the agenda - there are links there 20:44:18 I personally don't see the patch as something that will ever be committed 20:44:18 As long as we do incremental changes, I don't think there is much to fear about the end result being disliked. 20:44:22 Ok, well shall we say that people posting HOT/DSL related patches should add all heat-core to the reviewers list, and that we (heat-core) will make sure things are reviewed by several (more than 2) reviewers before approving? 20:44:27 it's just using Gerrit as a discussion tool 20:44:31 I don't need to be the only one to approve IMO 20:44:37 I can -2 now to save time? ;) 20:44:40 We should probably all pay slightly more attention to those I presume 20:45:04 As long as the templates are properly versioned, can't we manage having a rapidly changing (lightweight review) template format in the short run? that is, we only need to be backwards compatible with the version that yes stamped every 6 months, right? 20:45:13 shardy: +1 20:45:16 kebray: correct 20:45:30 therve: Yep, we can just agree to give extra attention (and time) for everyone to get a look at stuff before it's merged 20:45:32 shardy, In practice how does gerrit support it? 20:45:32 shardy: +1 20:45:38 kebray as long as they are forward compatible... 20:45:46 I think everyone acknowledges there's a higher bar for consensus when implementing major features 20:46:34 an example template is just an expression of intent though 20:46:44 not a spec 20:47:00 so to zaneb's point about not approving the changes, shardy should we banhammer the patch so folks dont inadvertantly merge it ? 20:47:32 sdake why not merge it and work on it? 20:47:36 * stevebaker has to go 20:47:38 sdake_: I guess, but has anyone ever accidentally approved something? 20:47:41 zaneb's idea ;) 20:47:41 instead of letting it hang 20:48:02 shardy: I accidentally approved something the other day ;) 20:48:11 asalkeld: Idea is just to get eyes on the patch before we merge something half the team hate ;) 20:48:21 * sdake_ admits to +2 +A without another +2 recently... groan 20:48:25 zaneb: lol 20:48:38 shardy, sure 20:48:53 but, we can iterate as well 20:48:56 if you catch yourself before jenkins finishes testing you can remove your +A to prevent merging 20:49:06 clarkb ya i did catch it quickly 20:49:12 and fixed it fortunately :) 20:49:34 Ok, well shall we just handle this informally, if there's a patch anyone reviews which they thing is suitably contentious, -2 it and make sure we get consensus before merge 20:49:37 clarkb: I didn't want to be that obvious ;) 20:49:58 zaneb never makes mistakess ;) 20:49:59 Fpr obviously OK and simple/small stuff, we use the normal process of 2x+2 20:50:26 shardy : i think for most things that makes sense, the dsl is a special case tho 20:50:28 shardy, you mean for everything else? 20:50:31 I think we can all be trusted with this stuff, but I do agree we should all be extra active reviewing it 20:50:32 Let's not be afraid of reverts too if that needs to happen. 20:51:15 asalkeld: I think we're just saying for big DSL changes 20:51:23 good 20:51:24 9 minutes 20:51:29 I've got no desire to extend the review cycle unnecessarily 20:51:43 in fact first one would be good enough to satisfy me :) 20:51:50 after that iterate + normal process 20:51:55 #topic How/where to handle HOT in the code 20:52:09 So shall we skip this and go to open discussion? 20:52:17 since we really covered it earlier? 20:52:20 shardy: yep, we've done that to death 20:52:28 #topic Open discussion 20:52:29 i do have one quesiton 20:52:34 initial Environment patch: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/30866/ 20:52:38 sdake_: too late ;) 20:52:41 the open-dsl vs hot - are they competing proposals? 20:52:43 Do y'all have Rackspace accounts yet? How is it going? 20:53:01 If not: http://iopenedthecloud.com/ 20:53:03 sdake_: no, they're different names for the same general effort 20:53:05 thanks fsargent 20:53:12 sdake_: No, we're trying to converge on a native syntax which pleases all those who want a non-cfn template model 20:53:13 fsargent I applied but no email yet 20:53:23 okay, I'll knock some heads together. 20:53:27 fsargent: I have the t-shirt, but not the account yet 20:53:34 ha 20:53:43 Have the t-shirt, not the account. That's a metaphor for something 20:54:00 zaneb afraid to go over his 500 mo limit ;) 20:54:08 fsargent, can we get a racks server resource? 20:54:21 asalkeld: nice, will review in the morning :) 20:54:25 racks server resource? 20:54:44 a resource that starts a rackspace server 20:54:48 racks server, LBaaS, and DBaaS resources for Heat are in the works. 20:54:59 asalkeld: my team is working it right now. 20:55:05 I just need the server 20:55:11 (alpha?) 20:55:13 Yep.. well, I need all 3 :-) 20:55:19 in h2 the nova resources are changing 20:55:27 so keep that in mind - may hav eto do a bit of rework on your end 20:55:41 kebray: feel free to post WIP/draft patches or a fork somewhere, so we can see what you're doing :) 20:55:48 +1 20:56:01 sdake_ don't care about Nova changes, as long as the resource implementation doesn't change. it'll be one of the vendor specific resources for now. 20:56:12 small patches that work ho-hum are better than giant patches that "work fine in my rack" 20:56:17 4 minutes, anything else? 20:56:25 random interesting thing I discovered today 20:56:30 #link http://www.pulpproject.org/ 20:56:33 Yeah, been wondering where the team should dump code.. sort of waiting for the in-tree vs. just stack forge discussion to settle. 20:56:40 in the context of https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Heat/htr 20:57:06 apparently puppet are using it for their manifests repo 20:57:11 that is all. 20:57:14 meh 20:57:28 * SpamapS hugs his image based update dreams tightly. 20:57:39 har 20:58:09 shardy the "only run non-aws templates" wasn't in the h2 milestone 20:58:15 * kebray hands SpamapS a copy of Good to Great. 20:58:25 the blueprint spamaps wrote up 20:58:38 sdake_: the open-api-dsl is the umbrella BP, targetted at h3 20:58:39 we may need that for nova-server blueprint 20:58:58 as we have a load of dependent BPs targeted at h2, most of which have not even been started 20:59:03 which is a bit worrying 20:59:11 but anyway, out of time 20:59:15 kebray: I haven't heard any major partisan fans of the stack forge approach. We can negative-vote to say that the rackspace resource ought to live in-tree 20:59:15 #endmeeting