18:02:36 #startmeeting networking_policy 18:02:37 Meeting started Thu Aug 14 18:02:36 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is SumitNaiksatam. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:02:38 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 18:02:40 The meeting name has been set to 'networking_policy' 18:02:40 hi all! 18:02:45 #info agenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Neutron_Group_Policy 18:02:58 agenda unchanged from the last meeting :-) 18:03:09 hi 18:03:19 hi 18:03:20 #topic Mailing list discussion on the path forward 18:03:35 hi 18:04:13 i think Stefano sent out an email yesterday saying that we are getting closer to making some progress here 18:04:25 i dont have any more details than that 18:04:31 SumitNaiksatam: link in agenda? 18:04:40 * s3wong holding his breath awaiting for a decision on GBP's fate (for Juno) 18:04:42 #info agenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Neutron_Group_Policy 18:04:56 i meant for mailing thread 18:05:02 making sure i am not missing it 18:06:14 #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2014-August/042963.html 18:06:55 it says many in the GBP team are actively working …. 18:07:08 who are those members? are they present here? 18:07:28 banix: i believe he is referring to the mailing list discussions 18:07:58 SumitNaiksatam: i see 18:08:07 banix: other than that stefano had reached out to mscohen, rkukura and myself 18:08:29 banix: this was based on the action item he had mentioned in the Neutron IRC meeting on monday 18:08:42 SumitNaiksatam: how did that go? 18:08:45 banix: to understand the history 18:09:01 SumitNaiksatam: is there a rough idea on which direction we are going to go? 18:09:01 history of the development of GBP 18:09:05 he wanted to get up to speed 18:09:16 s3wong: we gave the matter of fact information 18:09:37 based on whatever is already in the open and recorded 18:09:49 s3wong: i am not sure 18:10:05 SumitNaiksatam: OK 18:10:08 i dont know if others are, i have not seen anything in the public mailing lists 18:10:36 i think different people are working on different proposals or ideas 18:11:00 SumitNaiksatam, prasadv reached out to stefano and told him about the work we have been doing 18:11:13 hemanthravi: ok, thanks for the update, good to know 18:11:57 What is the role of Stefano? Any particular reason why he is asked to do this? 18:12:17 banix: I think he is on the OpenStack board? 18:12:44 banix: i am not sure, you ahve to either check with him or the PTL 18:13:03 s3wong: SumitNaiksatam ok thx 18:13:14 banix: since he joined in the last neutron IRC meeting which is usually run by the PTL 18:13:35 banix: perhaps these are all good questions to be posed to the ML 18:13:52 http://www.openstack.org/foundation/staff 18:13:53 will there be a final decsion on whether on gbp in juno? 18:13:59 Ok. So we have 20 days. We have ~13 patches (neutron, heat, client, horizon) to merge. What is our team strategy here? 18:14:20 ronakmshah: our team strategy is to stay on message 18:14:36 LouisF: we are all hopeful 18:14:54 SumitNaiksatam: yeah will send a note asking for clarification and openness to the discussion (not suggesting it is not open; simply reiterating it.) 18:15:06 LouisF: i am guessing you are in support of it being in Juno 18:15:17 banix: very good 18:15:32 SumitNaiksatam: indeed 18:15:55 LouisF: good 18:15:55 SumitNaiksatam: Is there a timeline for the decision being made? 18:16:04 from the Neutron weekly cll i thought it was clear thet it will *not* be in tree in Juno for sure 18:16:38 banix: is taht your interpretation or you have knowledge about this? 18:16:51 SumitNaiksatam: my interpretation 18:16:52 cathy_: we hope its at the earliest 18:17:07 cathy_: i am guessing you are also anxious as you are in support of this effort? 18:17:19 SumitNaiksatam: yes 18:17:26 cathy_: good 18:17:30 i lurking and can explain stefano 18:17:33 banix: okay 18:17:34 my understanding from the call; no knowledge beyond that 18:17:59 stefano is one of the openstack community managers 18:18:02 banix: my interpretation of the call was that there is no conclusion - but time is against us... 18:18:10 and he works for the foundation 18:18:13 s3wong: that was more of my feeling as well 18:18:29 s3wong: based on the ML discussion as well as from the IRC meeting 18:18:37 sarob: thanks for that input 18:18:37 :( 18:18:45 sure 18:18:46 sarob: i see; thx for the info 18:19:23 ok, onto more technical things? ;-) 18:19:39 so while on the ML thread 18:20:07 i think most people agreed to the policy-target terminology (in lieu of endpoint) 18:20:22 but towards the end there was also a suggestion for “policy-endpoint" 18:20:35 want to make sure that its duly noted as well 18:21:04 also we have not discussed “policy-target” as a candidate specifically in this meeting forum 18:21:29 any thoughts? 18:21:54 +1 18:21:55 should we go with “policy-target” and “policy-group”? 18:22:05 LouisF: +1 for which one? 18:22:40 policy-group containing policy-targets 18:22:44 +1 for policy-target/policy-group 18:22:57 +1 for policy-target, policy-group 18:22:59 dont like policy-target particularly but any of the suggestions is ok 18:23:03 policy-endpoint sure sounds fine but I'd avoid the 'endpoint' word 18:23:12 contract is still contract, right? :-) 18:23:15 so +1 policy-target and policy-group 18:23:17 ivar-lazzaro: exactly 18:23:25 LouisF: regXboi hemanthravi ivar-lazzaro: thanks 18:23:41 banix: so you dont like policy-target but you are not opposed? 18:23:48 target-group/target-member? 18:23:59 SumitNaiksatam: correct; no problem with having it 18:24:09 LouisF: that way, we all work for Target instead of Walmart :-) 18:24:16 LouisF: i think it might be better to have “policy” in there somewhere :-) 18:24:23 s3wong: lol 18:24:34 s3wong: lol 18:24:37 SumitNaiksatam: ok fine 18:24:48 As long as it has a usable acronym, I’m OK 18:24:49 LouisF: no, just thinking loud 18:24:59 rkukura: there you go! :-) 18:25:04 policy-group could mislead people to think it is a group of policy? 18:25:27 cathy_: so policy-target-group, then? 18:25:36 rkukura: PT and PTG --- not as catchy as EP and EPG... 18:25:46 s3wong: that i agree 18:25:55 i had gotten used to EP and EPG! :-( 18:26:30 so per cathy_’s reservation, what do people think of ‘policy-target-group’? 18:26:45 SumitNaiksatam: that is a little too long, or not 18:26:51 cathy_ point is very interesting, I like policy-target-group little long thou 18:27:04 we already had end-point-group 18:27:10 if you break it that way 18:27:21 honestly, I think the main reason to change the name is to not have to discuss changing the name. 18:27:27 so i guess policy-target-group might be a few more characters 18:27:29 the CLI would be neutron-policy-target-group-create ... 18:27:43 s3wong: ouch 18:28:01 s3wong: or we could make it neutron-ptg-create 18:28:16 s3wong: but valid point to consider from a usability perspective 18:28:29 banix: you were saying something? 18:28:44 I think louis's suggestion has merit. since it is clear that policy is appled, do we still need policy in the tagret-group 18:28:57 SumitNaiksatam: if we do that, consistency requires ptg-list, ptg-show, ptg-update and ptg-delete and I can just hear somebody complaining about using an abbrev 18:29:05 SumitNaiksatam: I think banix 's point is we are discussing name change such that we don't have to have long discussion on name change 18:29:08 regXboi: :-) 18:29:15 cathy_: if we don't say policy, somebody will inevitably complain that we are too general 18:29:28 so let's not open that can of worms again 18:29:37 regXboi: ok, 18:29:37 SumitNaiksatam: yeah what s3wong said 18:30:09 s3wong: banix: sorry i still did not get it (yeah, i am dense), but anyway 18:30:16 policy-point and policy-group 18:30:27 i think we proabably dont want to revisit this again 18:30:34 name change that is 18:30:40 +1 18:30:45 SumitNaiksatam: so we conform to Jay Pipes' request for name change to avoid name changing being a gating factor on discussing GBP 18:30:48 SumitNaiksatam: i think the names are good as they are; not convinced we have to change them but changing them will make it possible to move on ... 18:30:53 CLI would be grouppolicy-policy-target-group-create 18:30:54 so lets spend a few more minutes if we have to, and get done with it 18:30:59 very confusing 18:31:06 +1 18:31:10 SumitNaiksatam: and at the end we still spent tons of time discussing name changes. I think that was the point :-) 18:31:23 confusing 18:31:27 CLI should be grouppolicy-policy-point-create 18:31:34 grouppolicy-policy-group-create 18:31:39 I'm going to argue against policy-point 18:31:43 Why not: neutron group-policy-target create 18:31:46 That as is is long enough 18:31:46 banix: i fully agree, i did not see any problems with the names or overlaps (but it came up at a time when lots of things were being thrown at this, and we did not want it to be a roadblock) 18:31:57 because it's *not* clear 18:32:11 ronakmshah: that’s correct 18:32:28 jaypipes: yeah 18:32:36 jaypipes: that works for the “policy-target" 18:32:43 jaypipes: +1 for the thing that replaces endpoints (sorry about that :) ) 18:32:44 jaypipes: we were discussing what to call the group 18:33:01 jaypipes: so we have could either call it “policy-group” 18:33:06 group synonyms: bag, sack, bucket... 18:33:15 SumitNaiksatam: neutron policy-group-create 18:33:17 byw, do we still distinguish source and destination? 18:33:28 SumitNaiksatam: neutron policy-target create 18:33:35 jaypipes: but then people said that “policy-group” implies a group of policies 18:33:49 jaypipes: and not group of policy-targets 18:34:04 jaypipes: so the suggestion was to use ‘policy-target-group' 18:34:09 SumitNaiksatam: a policy-target is just one component of a policy group, yes? 18:34:13 jaypipes: but then it becomes too long :-) 18:34:19 jaypipes: exactly 18:34:27 jaypipes: not quite... 18:34:46 jaypipes: or in other words, policy-group is a collection of policy-targets 18:34:56 regXboi: ^^^? 18:35:02 * regXboi can hear the complaining now 18:35:03 SumitNaiksatam: so I recommend: neutron policy-target create for the policy-target creation 18:35:24 jaypipes: yeah, i think we kind of agreed on that 18:35:24 SumitNaiksatam: and neutron policy-group create for the policy-group creation 18:35:49 Fine. +1 18:35:55 jaypipes: but the suggestion is that “policy-group” sounds like a collection of policies 18:35:57 that's pithy enough, yes? 18:36:05 EPG -> Policy-group 18:36:15 EP - > Policy-target 18:36:18 right. 18:36:18 jaypipes: whereas its actually a collection of ‘policy-targets' 18:36:33 cathy_: am i representing your point correctly? 18:36:56 SumitNaiksatam: yes, it is just my concern how some people might interprete it 18:37:42 i think Cathy_ i right in pointing out policy-group is confusing 18:37:48 if everybody agrees that ‘policy-group’ is not misleading, we can move forward with that 18:37:50 is right 18:37:59 my 2 cents is for neutron target-group create 18:38:10 if not, then we have to chose the longer terminilogy “policy-target-group" 18:38:14 LouisF: that works too. 18:38:16 i think it is confusing; will have to pay the price later on 18:38:23 I like Louis's sugggestion 18:38:43 My only concern with PT is that when you attach a VM to that one will have to say “attach this VM to this policy-target” 18:38:44 banix: agreed, I am definitely not a fan of policy-group, especially we prefix that with group-policy 18:38:48 sounds silly... 18:38:51 the problem is that then you have policy-target instead of just target. :) 18:38:56 policy-point fits well for me in that regard 18:39:29 VM is a policy-target vs VM is a policy-point 18:39:42 jaypipes: perhaps someone else might complain with overloading of the target terminology, not sure 18:39:44 policy-point is too close to policy enforcement point for my taste 18:40:24 we are 40 mins into the meeting :-) 18:40:27 neutron policy-target-group create && neutron policy-target create 18:40:51 jaypipes: :-) 18:40:52 how about "target replacing "endpt" and "target group" replacing "endpt group" 18:41:12 cathy_: what about jaypipes suggetstion above? 18:41:14 neutron target-group create && neutron target create 18:41:16 cathy_: he has spelt it out 18:41:19 cathy_: yes? 18:41:33 jaypipes: i prefer the former 18:41:35 that is good 18:41:42 either one is cool with me. 18:41:44 +1 18:41:45 sorry - we need to say policy somewhere 18:41:47 jaypipes: I like it 18:41:51 Policy is a MUST 18:41:52 regXboi: +1 18:42:22 okay, so we agree policy-target and policy-target-group? :-) 18:42:26 cathy_: I strongly prefer acronyms over “squashed” words 18:42:36 I think how long the name is should not matter as long as it is clear, for instance we have in Neutron: security-group-rule-create 18:42:46 emagana: kind of agree 18:42:48 emagana: +1 18:42:52 rkukura: agree 18:42:53 SumitNaiksatam: +1 18:42:55 rkukura: agree, it is just for easy typing 18:43:07 not suggesting using sqaushed words 18:43:10 going once 18:43:18 policy-target and policy-target-group 18:43:27 "bang that gavel!" 18:43:41 ok no disagreements 18:43:53 sounds good 18:44:05 OK with me 18:44:10 #agreed endpoint will be changed to policy-target and endpointgroup will be changed to policy-target-group 18:44:12 and sold to the gentleman in the green fedora... 18:44:23 regXboi: there ^^^ 18:44:26 LouisF: lol 18:44:28 :-) 18:44:35 LouisF: LOL 18:44:44 LouisF: didnt realize that regXboi was wearing the green fedora 18:44:54 * regXboi didnt realize it either ;) 18:44:56 LouisF: or may be it was jaypipes! :-) 18:45:07 :) 18:45:12 actually it was jaypipes :-) 18:45:17 ok moving on then? 18:45:23 yes pls 18:45:29 * jaypipes dons green fedora 18:46:08 * SumitNaiksatam hands over the policy-target plaque to jaypipes :-) 18:46:19 #topic Patches in review 18:46:23 SumitNaiksatam: are we going to drop grouppolicy prefix in CLI? 18:46:36 songole: good point 18:46:41 #undo 18:46:42 Removing item from minutes: 18:46:42 can we? I'd sure like to 18:47:04 lets take the CLI patch first since songole has been working furiously on that 18:47:07 #topic CLI 18:47:22 if we don't, CLI command would be grouppolicy-policy-target-create 18:47:27 so per jaypipes’ suggestion above its not required 18:47:43 is everyone fine with: 18:48:00 neutron policy-target-group create && neutron policy-target create 18:48:06 ? 18:48:17 neutron l3-policy-create … 18:48:20 any issues with not having grouppolicy as prefix? 18:48:24 * regXboi goes and looks 18:48:28 neutron contract-create .. 18:48:32 yes 18:49:02 yeah may be an issue 18:49:06 I'm worried about the l3policy and l2policy coming back to us 18:49:13 earlier there was an issue with action-create....too generic without prefix 18:49:13 they need to have some prefix 18:49:28 gbp-l3policy-create? 18:49:40 could we just add a policy- prefix to the ones that don’t already mention policy? 18:49:40 or just gp-* 18:49:51 banix or songole: +1 18:49:52 banix: +1 18:50:04 I'm ok with an abbrev there 18:50:25 and gp-policy-target-create and gp-policy-target-group-create aren't *too* bad 18:50:28 applied consistently? i.e. gp-policy-target-create …? 18:50:33 Will it be acceptable? Cores? 18:50:46 gp/gbp - nice, i like that 18:50:46 rkukura: yes, applied consistently (whatever it is) 18:50:50 regXboi: +1 18:50:57 I might miss some discussion. WHy do we have l2policy and l3 policy. What is their replationship to contract? There could be policies other than L2 and L3. 18:51:23 cathy_: we had a long discussion about what to call those as well :-) 18:51:35 cathy_: they were originally named l2-context and l3-context 18:51:36 cathy_: so in this case they are l2/3 policies 18:52:07 so should we go with the “gp-“ prefix for all group-based policy CLI? 18:52:17 SumitNaiksatam: s3wong I think I need to catch up on these discussions later 18:52:27 cathy_: sure 18:52:36 going by the above argument, isn't it actually contract-target? 18:52:43 cathy_: if there are other policies that need to be added, we can surely augment the model 18:52:53 SumitNaiksatam: +1 on the gp idea (though I'd like some cores to comment :) ) 18:52:56 SumitNaiksatam: gp- sounds like a very good option! 18:52:58 +1 18:53:08 SumitNaiksatam: thanks. we can discuss that after all these are settled. 18:53:30 I’m a core and am on record as not being anti-acronym (aa) 18:53:41 rkukura: danke 18:53:47 regXboi: emagana cathy_: thanks 18:54:08 #agreed All Group-based policy CLI to be prefixed with “gp-“ 18:54:40 songole: any more CLI update? 18:54:53 songole: or anything blocking you? 18:55:02 gp-target-group-create? 18:55:04 no. working on unit tests 18:55:33 since the gp- sets the context? 18:55:34 LouisF: the gavel has been struck :-P 18:56:09 LouisF: i do agree there is some redundancy 18:56:28 LouisF: but probably not the best place to optimize? 18:56:34 SumitNaiksatam: okey doke 18:56:47 songole: ok thanks for the upates 18:57:00 we are 4 mins away from the end of the meeting 18:57:07 #topic Vendor drivers 18:57:16 ...the joys of naming... 18:57:17 i might be putting the cart before the horse here 18:57:39 i saw a driver from One Convergence. right? 18:57:42 but hemanthravi i think you or your teammate posted a patch for the one convergence driver? 18:57:48 yes 18:57:59 cool 18:58:00 hemanthravi: okay, just wanted everyone else to know 18:58:07 https://review.openstack.org/#/c/113649/ 18:58:11 in case the team wants to exchanve notes 18:58:17 i'd like to squeeze in a minute to discuss the proposed policy summit in september 18:58:18 #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/113649/ 18:58:21 hemanthravi: thanks 18:58:32 sarob: sure 18:58:37 #topic Open Discussion 18:58:40 thx 18:58:42 sarob: go ahead 18:58:44 #link https://www.eventbrite.com/e/openstack-policy-summit-tickets-12642081807 18:59:15 id like to get the congress and GBP teams together 18-19 sept 18:59:16 sarob: thanks for that information 18:59:28 and a few of the other project cores as well 18:59:35 sarob: yes, that would be good 18:59:55 SumitNaiksatam: i could use your input on the etherpad 19:00:10 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/juno-midcycle-policy-summit 19:00:10 sarob: thanks for the info. I am interested in joining the discussion 19:00:26 we can have some remote as well 19:00:38 if you can not join us in Palo Alto 19:00:46 ok anything else? 19:00:52 all are welcome to update the etherpad 19:00:54 we are at the hour 19:00:55 nope thx 19:00:56 sarob: my understanding it would either be in Yahoo (sunnyvale) or vmware (palo alto) 19:01:04 vmware 19:01:05 sarob: where in Palo Alto? 19:01:07 its set 19:01:10 so local for most of us (except regXboi and banix) 19:01:15 and me 19:01:22 and rkukura (sorry :-) ) 19:01:34 3401 hillview ave 19:01:51 we have a room for 25-30 19:01:56 all right, thanks all! 19:01:59 thx 19:02:02 a hangout/webex/irc channel would be good for those that will be remote... 19:02:05 we are over the time 19:02:09 roger that 19:02:12 #endmeeting