20:00:10 <johnsom> #startmeeting Octavia
20:00:10 <openstack> Meeting started Wed Mar 30 20:00:10 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is johnsom. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:00:11 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
20:00:13 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'octavia'
20:00:15 <minwang2> o/
20:00:15 <sbalukoff> Hello, folks!
20:00:18 <ajmiller> o/
20:00:31 <Aish> o/
20:00:35 <xgerman> o/
20:00:41 <johnsom> #topic Announcements
20:00:45 <bharathm> Hello Everyone
20:00:52 <johnsom> Newton timeline announced
20:00:59 <johnsom> #link http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html
20:01:03 <sbalukoff> Yay!
20:01:12 <johnsom> I have updated the launchpad milestones to reflect these dates
20:01:30 <johnsom> Also
20:01:32 <johnsom> Docs gate and periodic liberty/mitaka gates added to Octavia project
20:01:50 <sbalukoff> Cool
20:01:57 <xgerman> +1
20:02:02 <johnsom> We now have a docs check gate on the Octavia project and periodic checks for liberty/mitaka bitrot
20:02:30 <johnsom> Tip for those that don't know, you can preview the docs changes by clicking on the docs gate results in gerrit
20:02:46 <johnsom> Very handy, especially since we are trying to work on docs updates.
20:02:58 <sbalukoff> Yes!
20:02:59 <bharathm> Nicee
20:03:11 <johnsom> Any other announcements?
20:03:33 <johnsom> #topic Docu-geddon
20:03:38 <sbalukoff> Haha
20:03:41 <johnsom> Speaking of docs...
20:03:51 <johnsom> #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/octavia/+bugs?field.tag=docs
20:03:57 <johnsom> Documentation bugs (we need your help)
20:03:57 <sbalukoff> Sorry---  haven't made much progress on my end there. (Been busy with internal and personal stuff.)
20:04:10 <sbalukoff> And yes, we need help with the docs!
20:04:45 <johnsom> Please take a look at the docs and contribute if you can.  Partials/starts are ok with me.
20:05:02 <johnsom> If you don't have time to write the whole thing
20:05:18 * xgerman wonders if RAX is being towed away
20:05:19 <johnsom> Shameless plug: Taskflow documentation demo available
20:05:26 <johnsom> #link
20:05:42 <sbalukoff> Cool!
20:05:45 <johnsom> I wrote a script that builds docs for the key taskflows.
20:06:12 <johnsom> Please review.  We can't merge it as it required a fix in TaskFlow for a python library change.
20:06:17 <sbalukoff> Nice!
20:06:31 <xgerman> those graphs are epic
20:06:47 <johnsom> TaskFlow can't release until after the 8th at the earliest for the Mitaka/Newton release freeze window.  So, that is why I have a preview up.
20:07:09 <johnsom> Anyway, welcome comments so we can merge with TaskFlow releases.
20:07:24 <johnsom> Anything else on our push for docs?
20:08:08 <johnsom> Ok, I don't see fnaval here, so skipping the test topic again.  I think he is traveling
20:08:22 <johnsom> #topic Brief progress reports - reviews needed, etc.
20:08:30 <xgerman> actually I don;t see anyone form RAX
20:08:32 <TrevorV|Home> o/
20:08:35 <TrevorV|Home> sorry, late
20:08:37 <TrevorV|Home> meeting going long still
20:08:52 <xgerman> TrevorV|Home just on cue
20:09:21 <sbalukoff> could use some comments on this: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/232173/
20:09:29 <johnsom> I have been working on getting the nova console logs archived in the gates should something go wrong (namely our session persistence issue)
20:09:30 <johnsom> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/298915
20:09:33 <TrevorV|Home> I got single-create written for "/lbaas/loadbalancers" but we want it for "/lbaas/graphs" or something along those lines, and its proven infinitely more confusing for me to make that change, so for me progress is "slow" still, but the logic was working at least :(
20:09:37 <sbalukoff> I suspect I'm missing important stuff in that.
20:09:39 <johnsom> #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/298915
20:09:42 <TrevorV|Home> Just gotta figure out neutron lbaas extension bullsh**
20:09:53 <minwang2> this patch needs review #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/288208/
20:10:07 <johnsom> #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/232173/
20:10:13 <johnsom> #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/288208/
20:10:51 <johnsom> Another note on the console logs patch.  Once that is in it will only archive the logs if the instance is still running at the gate cleanup time.
20:11:39 <bharathm> minwang2: you may have to update the permissions in that patch.. check my comment
20:11:46 <johnsom> If there is value in keeping the logs otherwise, you can copy them into a <instance-id>-archive folder before you delete the instance in your scenario test.  That way they will be picked up and saved.
20:11:57 <sbalukoff> johnsom: Does that substantially impact our ability to troubleshoot?
20:12:11 <sbalukoff> Aah, ok.
20:12:36 <johnsom> Yes, we can see what nova did for our image booting.  I have seen bug reports where nova took 23 MINUTES to boot an amp.
20:12:45 <johnsom> I think it was under powered hardware.
20:12:50 <minwang2> bharathm i saw that, sbalukoff can you review this patch please https://review.openstack.org/#/c/288208/
20:13:01 <johnsom> But, I think there is value in seeing what the gates hosts are up to
20:13:08 <sbalukoff> minwang2: Sure!
20:13:34 <minwang2> yeah, since i changed the content of base.j2, you used to work on this file
20:13:44 <sbalukoff> johnsom: +1
20:13:56 <xgerman> +1
20:13:57 <johnsom> Anyway, it might help us understand what happened with amps that can't be reached for a long period of time
20:14:18 <xgerman> yeah, especially with all this random new hardware coming online
20:14:24 <johnsom> Yep
20:14:43 <sbalukoff> Yeah.
20:14:43 <johnsom> Any other progress updates?
20:15:01 <johnsom> #topic Open Discussion
20:15:13 <sbalukoff> I will be on vacation all next week, starting this Friday.
20:15:23 <TrevorV|Home> Nice sbalukoff !
20:15:24 <bana_k> needs review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/286365/
20:15:29 <TrevorV|Home> I am supposed to be on vacation right now :D
20:15:40 <johnsom> Ok, I have one topic.  We merged a fix for failover to be able to use spares (actually two, because I made a mistake).
20:15:44 <sbalukoff> Will be back for a couple weeks, then I think Dustin and I are planning on making a road trip of the summit (meaning I will probably missing the meeting just before the summit and just after)
20:15:45 <TrevorV|Home> I've been "off" since yesterday.. but I've worked almost every day :D
20:15:54 <xgerman> yeah, I am on vacation next Wednesday but will try to attend
20:16:00 <johnsom> Do we want to push to backport these to stable/mitaka and cut another Mitaka release?
20:16:10 <sbalukoff> johnsom: Yes, I think so.
20:16:15 <xgerman> +1
20:16:17 <TrevorV|Home> johnsom, is failover broken without them?
20:16:30 <sbalukoff> It's broken in stable, this is a "pure bug" with no additional features added, and it's fairly significant.
20:16:35 <xgerman> failover likely works but you can’t use the spares pool
20:16:38 <sbalukoff> Totally a good candidate for a backport.
20:16:42 <johnsom> TrevorV|Home No, it will failover, but it will always build a new amp
20:16:43 <TrevorV|Home> Yeah, I'm okay with that
20:17:01 <TrevorV|Home> I have zero issue with backporting that
20:17:04 <bharathm> +1 for backport
20:17:08 <TrevorV|Home> Was just looking for context :D
20:17:16 <johnsom> Sure, NP.
20:17:28 <johnsom> Ok, looks like another task on my list.
20:17:38 <sbalukoff> Heh!
20:18:12 <johnsom> TrevorV|Home do we have clarity on the cascade create/delete API?  Do we need to paint more?
20:18:24 <xgerman> more painting is needed
20:18:34 <TrevorV|Home> johnsom, I'm not sure if we "need" to paint more.
20:18:41 <johnsom> Darn (not the word I used verbally)
20:18:44 <TrevorV|Home> I'd like an official agreement
20:19:11 <johnsom> Me too as I have the neutron client patch just hanging out waiting
20:19:16 <TrevorV|Home> To be honest, johnsom , I have a preference, but both ways make sense with certain considerations
20:19:36 <johnsom> Is blogan here or at the tow yard?
20:19:45 <xgerman> I think dougwig wants lb_tree which is misleading since it’s a graph...
20:19:52 <johnsom> Can we finish this in the 40 minutes left?
20:20:02 <xgerman> absoluitely
20:20:02 <TrevorV|Home> new endpoint makes sense because neutron likes bad designs.  Additional change to /lbaas makes sense because its creating an existing object, a loadbalancer.  Sooo, idk
20:20:03 <dougwig> i want any separate endpoint, i don't care what it's called.
20:20:13 <johnsom> Seriously?  We are going back and forth on tree vs. graph?
20:20:36 <xgerman> nope, dougwig just agreed to graph
20:20:56 * sbalukoff just pulls out the popcorn.
20:21:08 <dougwig> btw, "TrevorV|Home> new endpoint makes sense because neutron likes bad designs." <-- uncool.
20:21:14 <TrevorV|Home> Sorry...
20:21:16 <johnsom> TrevorV|Home can you present "sample" URL paths for the two options you think are on the table?  You can star your favorite if you would like.
20:21:26 <xgerman> I actually agree with that statement
20:21:28 <TrevorV|Home> Oh, uh, sort of.
20:21:51 <xgerman> wsgi?
20:21:51 <TrevorV|Home> POST to "../lbaas/loadbalancers" is the current "Create" endpoint, and I have single-create working off that endpoint.
20:22:18 <TrevorV|Home> POST to "../lbaas/graph" is what I've been told is the way neutron will want it, and I'm having a lot of trouble getting that to work.
20:22:53 <TrevorV|Home> blogan, informed me that I have a poor understanding of how extensions work in Neutron, causing the confusion for me, which is probably true
20:23:40 <sbalukoff> What are the other proposed options?
20:23:40 <xgerman> blogan also thinks a loadbalancer with it’s children becomes a complete new object :-)
20:23:43 <johnsom> So it's down to extending "../lbaas/loadbalancers" or "../lbaas/graph"?
20:23:54 <blogan> i'm here now
20:24:06 * johnsom passes a brush
20:24:16 <TrevorV|Home> well, its extending ../lbaas/loadbalancers or making a new extension ../lbaas/graph
20:24:27 <dougwig> sbalukoff: either we redefine create on the existing endpoint to mean more than one object maybe, or we have a new endpoint that has the new create semantics.
20:24:42 <johnsom> I want a decision on the cascade create/delete endpoint in the next 35 minutes so we can get on with our lives....
20:24:45 <blogan> /lbaas/graph DONE
20:24:49 <TrevorV|Home> The only GOOD thing I say we get from adding the endpoint "../lbaas/graph" is the additional behavior.. FOr example, we could then have the status tree returned on a GET to that endpoint
20:24:58 <dougwig> rest-wise, overload is DWIM, but worse sins have occurred. i dont' get the love for reusing old endpoints.
20:25:02 <blogan> /lbaas/graphs sorry
20:25:37 <sbalukoff> I'm cool with /lbaas/graphs.
20:25:41 <xgerman> dougwig having tow endpoints which do the same can be confusing
20:25:41 <TrevorV|Home> Also, the "cascade_delete" will just be a "delete" to that endpoint followed by a LB id
20:25:48 <sbalukoff> I suspect we're going to want that status graph sooner rather than later anyway.
20:25:51 <blogan> GET /lbaas/graphs returns a list of load balancers with graphs which has th eadded benefit of a UI being ablet o show as much information in a list view instead of making multiple API calls
20:26:01 <dougwig> xgerman: not when they're different.
20:26:02 <blogan> DELETE /lbaas/graphs/<lb_Id> would be cascade delete
20:26:08 <TrevorV|Home> Right
20:26:12 <TrevorV|Home> That's what I said just now blogan :D
20:26:20 <johnsom> sbalukoff status is already there, with the appended path.
20:26:30 <blogan> oh well i'm just typing without eading
20:26:30 <xgerman> so how is a single_create where I just define a loadbalancer different from creating it the other way?
20:26:31 <blogan> reading
20:26:39 <TrevorV|Home> all good blogan
20:27:00 <TrevorV|Home> xgerman, the only difference is the nested objects.
20:27:20 <TrevorV|Home> Either you're creating an LB alone, or an LB with listener, or an LB with listener with pool, etc etc etc.
20:27:29 <johnsom> sbalukoff /v2.0/lbaas/loadbalancers/​{loadbalancer_id}​/statuses
20:27:46 <sbalukoff> johnsom: Aah.
20:27:50 <xgerman> yep, so creating just one LB is a special case of single_create… hence my argument we now have two endpoints doing the same thing
20:28:07 <xgerman> but like dougwig I have seen worse
20:28:32 <blogan> if we simply renamed loadbalancer to vip, and graph to loadbalancer, this would all make sense
20:28:36 <blogan> teh separate endpoint
20:28:41 <sbalukoff> xgerman: Different semantics, but operating on the same underlying objects...  in the interests of not messing with old functionality, I don't have a problem with this.
20:28:53 * johnsom gives blogan a VIP
20:29:02 * blogan takes johnsom's VIP
20:29:10 <TrevorV|Home> blogan, it still doesn't make sense in that way either
20:29:12 <johnsom> VIP sandwich
20:29:26 <TrevorV|Home> I was talking this through with a third party, and I forgot my own argument, but that STILL didn't make sense.
20:29:33 <sbalukoff> TrevorV|Home: There's no perfect solution here.
20:29:36 <xgerman> yeah, blogan just use LBaaS V1 — they have VIPS
20:29:41 <blogan> dougwig, how mcuh resistance would we get to having the single create call and cascade delete call off the /loadbalancers endpoint?
20:30:00 <TrevorV|Home> especially considering we already have the statuses off the /loadbalancers endpoint
20:30:09 <TrevorV|Home> just sayin
20:30:11 <blogan> perfect solution: lbaas v3
20:30:20 <TrevorV|Home> Even BETTER solution... Octavia replacing neutron lbaas
20:30:25 <blogan> but i guess its not perfect bc more work and screws users over
20:30:34 <sbalukoff> blogan: Until we discover something else we didn't consider correctly from the get-go. ;)
20:30:43 <blogan> haha
20:31:09 <johnsom> I think we have the same headache with neutron_lbaas or octavia being the API
20:31:12 <xgerman> I hope by then we have microversioniung
20:31:17 <sbalukoff> It'd be nice to have micro-versioning figured out someday. ;)
20:31:24 <dougwig> microversioning would solve this, yes.
20:31:26 <sbalukoff> jinx!
20:31:37 <blogan> microversioning wouldn't really solve this either
20:31:40 <blogan> i dont think it would
20:31:40 <johnsom> dougwig How so?
20:31:45 <TrevorV|Home> johnsom, we don't have extension issues in Octavia.  Adding single-create functionality in octavia was relatively simple, with me only having issues with sql alchemy strange-ness
20:31:51 <xgerman> can’t micro versioning cure cancer?
20:31:51 <blogan> we're still bike shedding
20:32:14 <sbalukoff> xgerman: Much like windex.
20:32:18 <sbalukoff> Yep.
20:32:20 <TrevorV|Home> Alright, none of this conversation has gotten us to "which endpoint is the group decision"
20:32:28 <sbalukoff> It's going to be a beautiful shed.
20:32:30 <blogan> i suspect a vote coming
20:32:57 <johnsom> #startvote Do you support going with /lbaas/graph? Yes, No, Abstain
20:32:58 <openstack> Begin voting on: Do you support going with /lbaas/graph? Valid vote options are Yes, No, Abstain.
20:32:59 <openstack> Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.
20:33:00 <dougwig> i'm voting for "/fuckthisshitiwanttodorealwork"
20:33:17 <sbalukoff> #vote yes
20:33:23 <TrevorV|Home> #vote No
20:33:31 <xgerman> #vote No
20:33:34 <dougwig> #vote yes
20:33:44 <TrevorV|Home> that's actually not "entirely" accurate, but its the MOST accurate for me, so whatever :D
20:33:46 <blogan> the only thing i care about is path of least resistance, and /graphs has that
20:34:03 <TrevorV|Home> blogan, so vote
20:34:13 <xgerman> it’s a tie right now
20:34:15 <blogan> #vote Yes
20:34:19 <crc32|znc> #vote yes
20:34:30 <johnsom> Yeah, graph/graph(s) don't care.  This is just getting to a concept.
20:34:38 <sbalukoff> Yeah.
20:34:47 <blogan> we'll revisit it next week, dont worry
20:34:51 <sbalukoff> You've yet to vote, johnsom
20:34:57 <sbalukoff> Haha
20:35:05 <johnsom> #vote getonwithitalready
20:35:05 <blogan> johnsom's dilemma
20:35:05 <openstack> johnsom: getonwithitalready is not a valid option. Valid options are Yes, No, Abstain.
20:35:09 <sbalukoff> I'm glad I'll be off the grid in Myanmar, then. XD
20:35:22 <sbalukoff> Haha
20:35:24 <johnsom> #vote yes
20:35:33 <blogan> insubordinate!
20:35:38 <johnsom> Ok, anyone else?
20:35:43 <TrevorV|Home> Alright, I guess enough people abstain that its in favor of /graphs
20:35:43 <bharathm> #vote Yes
20:35:46 <TrevorV|Home> Decision made
20:35:55 <johnsom> #endvote
20:35:56 <openstack> Voted on "Do you support going with /lbaas/graph?" Results are
20:35:57 <openstack> Yes (6): johnsom, sbalukoff, dougwig, bharathm, crc32|znc, blogan
20:35:58 <openstack> No (2): xgerman, TrevorV|Home
20:36:10 <TrevorV|Home> Shed painted
20:36:16 <johnsom> Ok, we have an answer.
20:36:16 <bharathm> Voting No doesn't guarantee it's gonna pass with others later. So as blogan said path of least resistance
20:36:44 <johnsom> TrevorV|Home Let me know when you have your side with cascade delete cooked and I will update my neutron client patch.
20:37:06 <xgerman> we don;t need to live in fear of who-should-not-be-named and his iron -2 fist
20:37:22 <johnsom> True, but at least we aren't standing around saying "I don't know, what do you think?" in a big circle.
20:37:34 <sbalukoff> Haha
20:37:43 <TrevorV|Home> johnsom, I don't have anything with cascade delete...
20:38:02 <TrevorV|Home> I'm doing single-create
20:38:03 <TrevorV|Home> :D
20:38:04 <xgerman> that’s blogan — he wants to hang that off graph as well
20:38:25 <johnsom> Ah, ok, so someone will have to come along after your patch and update the cascade delete code.  Fair enough
20:38:30 <blogan> if we have a /graphs endpoint it makes the most sense
20:38:35 <xgerman> it’s WIP anyway
20:38:37 <sbalukoff> +1
20:39:10 <johnsom> Ok, ten more endpoints and we will have folks covered for this cycle.
20:39:24 <johnsom> Any other open discussion topics?
20:39:39 <kong> can i ask a question, guys?
20:39:47 <johnsom> of course
20:39:49 <sbalukoff> Impossible. Can't be done.
20:39:52 <sbalukoff> ;)
20:39:54 <TrevorV|Home> kong, this is the PERFECT time to ask a question
20:39:59 <sbalukoff> What's your question, kong?
20:40:02 <kong> do you think octavia is production-ready in mitaka?
20:40:24 <xgerman> if you use it off the shelf - NO
20:40:43 <xgerman> sorry that wa sliberty
20:40:45 <sbalukoff> Tentative yes? I mean--  you'll have to set up your own monitoring and other glue.
20:40:48 <xgerman> mitaka should be fine
20:40:59 <sbalukoff> mitaka is definitely much better than liberty.
20:41:07 <johnsom> Yeah, don't use liberty
20:41:11 <xgerman> +1
20:41:14 <sbalukoff> It also depends somewhat on your cloud use case.
20:41:19 <kong> some blocks in liberty?
20:41:31 <johnsom> Lots of bugs in liberty
20:41:33 <kong> critical bugs?
20:41:34 <kong> ok
20:42:12 <johnsom> It does work, but there are a bunch of bugs we fixed in Mitaka that make the user experience a lot better.
20:42:20 <sbalukoff> Right.
20:42:31 <kong> ok, thanks for so many answers :-)
20:42:40 <kong> and will you focus on installation in Newton?
20:42:45 <kong> i mean, ansible or puppet
20:43:11 <sbalukoff> We've yet to really outline the main development initiatives for Newton... but...
20:43:32 <sbalukoff> I know that the operators present here are probably already working on installation for their specific cloud environments (I know we are)
20:43:34 <kong> because we don't want to install it via devstack for production :-)
20:43:36 <johnsom> I don't think this team has plans to do anything with ansible or puppet.  There is another openstack team doing ansible work for LBaaSv2 and Octavia.
20:44:06 <sbalukoff> kong: We will definitely have docs describing the process (there are some under review right now)
20:44:07 <johnsom> We are working on installation documentation
20:44:13 <sbalukoff> Yep.
20:44:18 <johnsom> Yeah, what he said...
20:44:23 <kong> johnsom: yes, i know. someone familiar with ansible and octavia both
20:44:42 <ptoohill> we do have plans for ansible for the amphora image building portion
20:44:47 <xgerman> yeah, installation tools is not really put scope here
20:44:48 <ptoohill> just to throw that out there
20:45:04 <johnsom> #link https://specs.openstack.org/openstack/openstack-ansible-specs/specs/mitaka/lbaasv2.html
20:45:13 <johnsom> that is the group working on ansible
20:45:20 <xgerman> and then there is heat as well
20:45:27 <kong> ok, thanks guys, sorry for chiming in
20:45:32 <kong> :-)
20:45:38 <johnsom> No worries.
20:45:47 <sbalukoff> I know Blue Box uses the public 'ursula' project for cloud installations. I suspect very much in the next month you're going to see ansible playbooks in there for installing Octavia / Neutron LBaaSv2.
20:45:48 <TrevorV|Home> No "sorry" mang, its a good question :D
20:45:56 <sbalukoff> Mostly because I'm working on them right now.
20:46:11 <TrevorV|Home> Alright guys, I'm bowing out.  I haven't eaten all day, if anyone needs some info from me, PM me or email me, ttyl!
20:46:21 <johnsom> Thanks
20:46:28 <johnsom> Anything else for today?
20:47:06 <johnsom> #endmeeting