16:00:02 #startmeeting OpenStack-Ansible 16:00:03 Meeting started Thu Jul 28 16:00:02 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mhayden. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 16:00:04 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 16:00:06 The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_ansible' 16:00:11 #topic Roll Call 16:00:11 hello 16:00:17 o/ 16:00:18 o? 16:00:28 hi 16:00:28 o/ 16:00:29 o/ 16:00:36 o/ 16:00:47 here 16:00:50 * mhayden ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) 16:00:51 HI, I am Janki. This is my first meeting here. 16:00:57 o/ 16:00:57 welcome, janki! 16:00:58 o/ 16:01:14 mhayden: thank you 16:01:30 o/ 16:01:50 o/ 16:01:56 welcome, janki ! 16:02:15 * mhayden gives d34dh0r53 a nudge 16:02:19 o/ 16:02:29 o/ 16:02:49 welcome janki 16:03:01 o/ 16:03:01 yerp 16:03:13 eil397_: evrardjp: thanks for the warm welcome :) 16:03:13 let's roll! 16:03:17 #topic Action items 16:03:32 first up was for automagically to update the xenial status etherpad 16:03:41 Its been done 16:03:56 woot 16:04:06 the other was for me to test xenial in the lab 16:04:25 i ran into some failures there that i haven't been able to visit, but i might have gotten dinged by one of those gate blocker bugs :( 16:04:28 thanks, I need to run through the CI jobs and shift more from non-voting to voting 16:04:33 i'll do my best to revisit that tomorrow 16:04:37 o/ 16:04:43 #action mhayden to continue testing xenial in the lab 16:04:52 odyssey4me: thanks for that! 16:05:06 that's it for action items 16:05:11 #topic OSA Mascot 16:05:15 o/ 16:05:22 o/ 16:05:23 * mhayden is still sad that d34dh0r53 can't be our mascot, but we have other options :) 16:05:29 righto 16:05:35 so I sent through the list to the foundation 16:06:03 they've fed back that another team has opted for a bee so the OSA bug would likely not be the best choice, and they're happy with the Cape Buffalo 16:06:07 there are no conflicts there 16:06:14 is everyone happy to go ahead with that? 16:06:27 +1 16:06:29 +1 16:06:31 +1 16:06:32 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_buffalo_Buffalo_buffalo 16:06:34 apparently they'll be dishing out stickers at the summit :) 16:06:36 +0.5 16:06:36 +1 here 16:06:44 +1 16:06:48 lol, ok awesome I'll let them know we're all in 16:07:05 +1 16:07:16 +1 16:07:19 at least we don't have to bison more time to decide 16:07:21 +1 16:07:27 :p 16:07:40 uggh 16:07:42 * odyssey4me hands the mic back to mhayden 16:07:52 I vote for mhayden's sentence to be our motto 16:07:55 haha 16:08:12 i'll take the mic back before odyssey4me realizes that's a bad idea :) 16:08:14 OSA: When you need to bison time 16:08:24 #topic Applying for stable:follows-policy governance tag 16:08:29 #link https://governance.openstack.org/reference/tags/stable_follows-policy.html 16:08:40 alright, I guess that's me again :p 16:08:40 * mhayden assumes this is odyssey4me 16:08:58 We have the option of applying to apply this governance tag to the project's deliverables. 16:09:14 This would be a signal to the world that we take our stable branches seriously. 16:09:32 it doesn't mean they have to 16:09:36 I honestly assumed that this was a requirement once bing an official project, but apparently not. 16:09:36 o/ 16:09:46 historically we have been rather free with backports, and those habits can be hard to break. Are we ready to take this step? 16:09:49 oh interesting odyssey4me 16:10:03 So I'd like to suggest that we apply for the tag, and that we stick to the rules far better going forward. 16:10:17 #link http://docs.openstack.org/project-team-guide/stable-branches.html 16:10:19 stevelle agreed, this will take more discipline 16:10:21 ^^ rules 16:10:26 if it's not a requirement, why would we want to apply for the tag? It seems more restrictive than its benefits 16:10:29 Looks like we need a stable branch maint team... 16:10:29 Are you advocating a separate stable maint core list? 16:10:38 but we have been pretty good about applying these rules during this cycle 16:10:41 I know some projects use separate cores for stable 16:10:47 We could have the discipline without being officially flagged as this 16:10:55 brb 16:10:58 we can, but it's not a requirement - the same core team can do stable reviews 16:11:02 what would the negative outcome be if we chose not to apply? 16:11:21 it affects the view of our maturity as a project 16:11:33 odyssey4me, How would that affect upgrade work, given that that's been happening post-release? 16:11:35 oh in the project navigator? 16:11:36 TC tags: gotta catch em all. 16:11:43 ah, palendae brings up a good question 16:11:45 How do we test backward compatibility of backports? In other words, does adopting this suggest that we should have some mechanism for ensuring such backware compatibility 16:11:50 also, not having this tag does mean that we get people trying to shove features into stable branches 16:11:51 e.g. I don't think anyone is working on Mitaka -> Newton right now 16:11:56 it becomes very hard to justify why not 16:12:37 Given the mid-cycle is not far off, should we discuss further then, or is there a good reason to push for adoption earlier than that? 16:12:44 the cycle planning which I've been trying very hard to get us to stick to has all been around being able to discipline our development into the cycle properly 16:12:55 part of that is for us to ensure that we do the upgrade work *within* the cycle 16:13:02 one implication of this tag would be that we have to be careful when bumping SHAs on stable that we only bump SHAs on projects which also have that tag, no? 16:13:12 ie by the time we release Newton, we should have a working upgrade 16:13:22 odyssey4me, I don't disagree with that approach, just pointing out we've not been able to hit that historically 16:13:23 stevelle: Great point 16:13:48 We could always move upgrade plays into their own repo that doesn’t carry the tag... 16:13:55 stevelle hmm, not sure about that - I could discuss that and see how that works 16:14:11 automagically, I'm -1 to that 16:14:15 Repo-itis is bad 16:14:24 #info If we apply for stable tag, what about upgrade playbooks that need to be adjusted after release? 16:14:26 automagically I think that's a terrible idea. Upgrades are essential to the success of the project's deliverables. 16:14:33 ^ 16:14:45 agreed with palendae and odyssey4me 16:14:49 bear in mind that this doesn't prevent us fixing bugs once a stable branch is cut 16:14:51 #info If we apply for stable tag, are we limited on the projects we can do SHA bumps on in stable releases? (Do those need to have stable tag, too?) 16:14:52 IMO, upgrades are more important than greenfield install 16:15:00 Greenfields won't nuke existing clouds 16:15:00 it just means we don't backport large features 16:15:06 which we have been good about in this cycle 16:15:15 I don’t disagree, I just find it hard to believe that we’ll have them done at the same time as the release 16:15:26 we have already had our releases inspected for the whole of the cycle, and have had no negative feedback\ 16:15:37 automagically, yeah, I share the skepticism. I would definitely prefer it that way 16:15:41 the only times we had a comeback, we had to bumpt the minor tag 16:15:51 (which is why that happened a few times) 16:15:59 I’m not opposed to adoption so long as we understand what we are signing up for and legitimately believe we can hit those targets 16:15:59 we need a better CI to automatically test upgrades between versions, only that will force us to care about upgrades 16:16:17 -1 16:16:28 I don't trust the lack of negative feedback to indicate we haven't let stuff slip by 16:16:29 not better but more extensive 16:16:39 I'm not against adding that tag. I do think shoehorning in big features needs to stop...but the tag isn't strictly necessary to stop that, either 16:16:47 I like the ability to backport features. This project is such a moving target, it's hard to be able to implement features as upstream projects commit them. 16:16:50 The upgrade problem is my biggest concern right now 16:16:54 it sounds like we have good questions/opinions here -- should we table that for the mid-cycle and have a more thorough discussion? 16:16:55 evrardjp not entirely true, but yes if we had people who would process the messages in the QA mailing list then periodic upgrade checks would have value 16:17:08 i think a lot of the standard upgrade playbooks are there, just needs some reorganization and any release->release specifics, which are hard to know until the next release stablize 16:17:09 s 16:17:10 mhayden, I'd agree that midcycle would be nice 16:17:16 right now our stakeholders are implementing their own upgrade testing and feeding back - that's a fairly good start 16:17:16 mhayden: ++ on midcycle discusssion 16:17:17 mhayden: I think this should go to the list before midcycle to solicit more feedback 16:17:20 jmccrory, Yeah, that's also true 16:17:24 * mhayden is working to figure out if we can do VC at the midcycle -- fingers crossed 16:17:30 Agreed with stevelle 16:17:31 stevelle: not a bad idea 16:17:32 stevelle: also a good point 16:17:42 Pre-meetup homework 16:17:43 reminds me of the "why not both?" meme 16:17:48 I need to do some of that myself 16:17:51 indeed 16:17:57 mhayden please don't try and accommodate VC... we have tried and failed many times 16:18:06 #agreed Send something to the ML about stable:follows-policy tag, follow up with discussion at the mid-cycle 16:18:21 odyssey4me: okay 16:18:25 mhayden VC is a distraction at the mid cycle and generally ends up being frustrating and not contributing 16:18:30 who will mail the list? 16:18:41 mhayden me 16:18:55 #action odyssey4me to send something to the ML about stable:follows-policy tag 16:19:00 it's definitely a deployer opinion to give 16:19:12 odyssey4me: can you update the etherpad too so it's on the agenda? 16:19:14 what is this VC business? 16:19:16 (for the midcycle) 16:19:21 michaelgugino: videoconference 16:19:25 ah 16:19:30 mhayden yep, doing it now 16:19:44 i'm sure we can fire up etherpads and link those pads in the channel for remote folks to jump in 16:19:48 we did VC with watcher, it worked out okay, but it was a much smaller group. 16:20:07 Biggest hurdle last time was timezones 16:20:11 I think there are too many people going to the mid cycle for VC to work 16:20:13 I intterupted discussions when joining 16:20:22 == michaelgugino 16:20:24 okay, are we good on this topic for now? 16:20:30 +1 16:20:35 next topic 16:20:46 yep 16:20:47 thanks for bringing it up, odyssey4me :) 16:20:57 #topic wsgi vs uwsgi and Apache vs nginx role consistency 16:21:07 stevelle / cloudnull / odyssey4me have the mic 16:21:25 * odyssey4me points at stevelle :) 16:21:35 I thought we were tabling this until the midcycle. 16:21:35 * cloudnull wants nginx+uwsgi all the things 16:21:36 I think we covered this last week 16:21:44 Yeah, don’t think we have anything new on this topic 16:21:46 ah, it was still in the agenda 16:21:48 yep, are we stuck or anything? 16:21:56 federation is an issue. 16:21:57 i think 16:22:10 #agreed Talk more on wsgi/uwsgi/nginx/apache at the mid-cycle 16:22:15 It needs time, and I thought we agreed there wouldn't be enough before M3 16:22:22 ^ That 16:22:31 cool beans, we can move on 16:22:36 #topic Mid-cycle planning 16:23:01 i'll be sending the list of names from the etherpad to the physical security team here to make badges and things 16:23:10 so be sure to get your name on there before next week 16:23:42 and i'll be sure to get some instructions out about where to go, where to park, etc 16:23:54 you'll need a Racker to escort you up to the room, we can tackle that too 16:24:04 mhayden, Do we have actual times for stuff yet? I was going to invite the Craton team for the inventory discussions 16:24:24 palendae: mainly just an outline 16:24:26 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/osa-midcycle-newton 16:24:28 Ok 16:24:45 palendae for things that need a set time (like using a VC for a discussion) we can specifically set a time on day 2 I think 16:24:46 #action mhayden to email security folks with the list and email extra venue instructions to attendees 16:24:49 mhayden: possible to have meeting online. I am in India 16:25:04 janki: i'm hearing that it didn't work so well in the past / 16:25:11 odyssey4me, Ok. I notice that Day 1's list is well over 8 hours :( 16:25:13 I'd suggest that we have a more strict schedule for day 2 - day 1 is for us to catch up and organise the rest of the week 16:25:26 but we can set times for day 2 16:25:29 #link http://dolphm.com/retrospective-on-openstack-midcycles/ 16:25:40 Suggest reading that ^ for those of you attending 16:25:48 if we do any VC stuff it must be no longer than an hour and have a well organised agenda and set of outcomes 16:25:54 automagically ++ 16:26:02 automagically: that's a good one 16:26:08 mhayden: :( 16:26:12 Just looking at the list of topics, day 2 will be at least half discussion if we hit everyting 16:26:36 janki: at a minimum, we will have some etherpads and link to them in #openstack-ansible 16:26:41 and we'll probably have some recaps written up 16:26:48 janki trying to include other time zones is even worse and far more disruptive - this is why the mid cycle is in-person to ensure that we're all in the same TZ 16:27:37 the focal point of the mid cycle is to assess where we're at in terms of this cycle's deliverables, to identify anything that's at risk of not making it, and to address that risk 16:28:09 anything else on the mid-cycle for now? 16:28:19 mhayden: odyssey4me: understand. Will keep tracking etherpads :) 16:28:39 anything that's idea orientated or not specifically on this cycle's list can be discussed briefly and needs to take limited time and should only be for the purpose of seeding discussion to be had at the next summit 16:29:23 next topic? 16:29:32 mhayden: ++ 16:29:32 +! 16:29:36 :1 16:29:37 hah 16:29:38 bah 16:29:42 +3.14 16:29:51 #topic Release Planning & Decisions 16:29:58 +$1 16:30:07 looks like 13.3.0 and 12.2.0 are on deck? 16:30:08 $! 16:30:33 yeah, I've had feedback from RPC that the recent changes have broken some of the requirements 16:30:55 or more accurately, now that the requirements are being properly calculated, it's broken the builds 16:31:00 Ruh roh 16:31:03 :p 16:31:11 what that means is that I may have to revert a patch or two 16:31:31 if we do things the right way now, why would you want to revert? 16:31:34 more testing is being done right now 16:31:36 Is it not possible for RPC to adapt 16:31:57 yeah, we worked on that today but it seems that our requirements processing isn't working the way it's supposed to either 16:32:10 Ah, so a melange of bugs 16:32:11 so we fixed one thing, but it's exposed another issue 16:32:21 yaks as far as the eye can see ;) 16:32:24 yeah - so we're testing a bit more 16:32:35 I'll hold back the release requests until tomorrow. 16:32:44 that's why we have stable releases. I think if more things are broken, we commit forward, not backward 16:33:00 it's likely that RPC will simply not do a SHA bump 16:33:24 OSA's build is right, but we need to also take care of our downstream consumers 16:33:39 No disagreement there 16:33:52 if you broke a stable branch, sure. But we still need to be able to implement features during a cycle 16:33:59 So, we should expect to see some bugs show up in Launchpad with the result of the RPC testing? 16:35:08 automagically maybe, not sure right now - we're still at the stage of confirming that there is a bug 16:35:12 k 16:35:24 anyway 16:35:30 on another note - I did the N2 rleease request 16:35:35 it does work 16:35:39 hooray! 16:35:55 I got the sweet spot between all the broken shenanigans. :) 16:36:08 : ) 16:36:15 the last few weeks have been a bit rough and really exposed our need for cross-repo testing, which I'm working on. 16:37:14 integration testing it is infinite thing 16:37:21 Happy to help out on getting more/better testing 16:37:22 recursive : - ) 16:37:34 alrighty, open discussion time? 16:37:42 fine for me 16:37:43 #topic Open Discussion 16:38:17 do we have etherpad to track centos support ? I would like to work in it 16:38:18 I propose we add a requirements.yml to each role repository, so each role is a little more self-contained 16:38:28 I'd appreciate some eyes on https://review.openstack.org/347930 - it's python, and it's cloudnull... so I really don't understand what it's doing. :) 16:38:34 I can vouch only for the outcome. 16:38:41 I have written a script to do the work for us, so we can run the script each time we tag the commits on the osa repo 16:38:48 eil397_: not sure on that one 16:38:51 https://gist.github.com/michaelgugino/fc3fe3d635396f0c15df401fb087c0c4 16:39:14 ^ awesome! 16:39:18 this will allow people that want to utilize just one of our roles an easy way to install the dependencies 16:39:18 michaelgugino what do you hope to achieve with this? 16:39:37 michaelgugino: Cool 16:39:48 oh I see - for the role requirements 16:40:08 that's nifty and should probably go in the openstack-ansible-ops repo for now 16:40:13 say someone wants to just use our swift play or something. This lets us put those requirements in each role, based on the role's meta, and the ansible-role-requirements.yml in the osa repo 16:40:26 I'd really rather not duplicate more stuff across all repositories 16:40:27 eil397_ You can start one modeled on https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-ansible-newton-ubuntu16-04 16:40:55 I haven't done the tests repo. 16:41:06 automagically: thanks. will do 16:41:08 #action odyssey4me to request the creation of the tests repository 16:41:25 Tend to aggree with odyssey4me, ansible-ops repo seems the best way to do specific builds 16:41:37 currently, there isn't an easy way to install the requirements if you just want to use one or two roles. You have to dig through the meta, and then check the role requirements file from osa, and manually install each requirement or build a requirements.yml yourself. 16:41:55 speaking of openstack-ansible-ops -- i could use another look at my improvements for osa-differ -> https://review.openstack.org/344866 16:42:16 michaelgugino does it resolve the requirements recursively? 16:42:44 no, I don't believe so 16:43:01 I could make it do that, I suppose 16:43:15 it's kinda rebuilding ansible-galaxy 16:43:48 I agree odyssey4me 16:43:55 we should fix our usage then 16:44:04 hmm, ok I think this is best suited as a tool in the ops repo for now 16:44:32 it could perhaps be useful to have an ansible-role-requirements.yml file in each repo which contains the bits it needs 16:44:44 yeah, that's why I wrote the script 16:44:48 that tool could possibly used to do the initial generation 16:45:02 is there a plan to publish osa roles to galaxy? 16:45:05 ok, that should be fine 16:45:06 that's if we don't care about the meta 16:45:21 jmccrory yes, but it's still in discussion between infra and ansible 16:45:22 jmccrory's question is valid 16:45:31 ah ok 16:45:31 because that's the limiting factor 16:45:33 there are some things that can't be automated right now, which infra want to automate 16:45:45 it uses the meta of each role to determine which roles from osa to include in requirements.yml 16:45:49 Versioning of the roles with semver will be desirable then 16:46:20 michaelgugino unfortunately that is not enough, because roles depended on also depend on roles 16:46:40 automagically: galaxy doesn't enforce semver versioning. it just wants tags 16:46:41 right now the role requirements can largely be derived from the test requirements and the meta 16:47:13 yes, but I'm using osa + meta to generate them because osa has the specific sha's we want. 16:47:37 for a role requirements file in each role we would not want SHA's 16:47:40 so, you update sha's in osa, commit, then run this script, then update each role's masters 16:47:45 ansible will fetch the latest tag by default 16:48:04 that won't work for tagged releases, like mitaka, we depending on specific versions for each role 16:48:11 I'm definitely not keen to create another place to manage SHA's 16:48:19 could we discuss this usage on the mid-cycle? it's a use case of osa, it's interesting 16:48:28 evrardjp: ++ 16:49:02 Does it need to wait? 16:49:07 michaelgugino FYI the tags are applied to all repositories simultaneously 16:49:10 I'm concerned the mid cycle is already bulging with topics 16:49:20 not that I require more topics there, but it would help understand to meet irl 16:49:23 palendae yep, we will likely have to prune the list 16:49:35 evrardjp gets one point for using irl 16:50:03 Point taken, but lots of stuff we discuss on IRC could also be done IRL, yet we carry forward :) 16:50:26 haha 16:51:09 michaelgugino for now I suggest putting the tool in the ops repo so that people can use it 16:51:16 ICW to meet IRL ASAP at the HQ 16:51:17 ok, sounds good to me 16:51:20 submit a basic description of what it's for and how to use it 16:51:37 but, it just generates requirements.yml files for each role, so not of particular use to people outside of us 16:51:41 ok 16:51:45 okay, we're reaching the end of the hour -- anyhting else? 16:52:43 ... 16:52:51 thanks everyone! :) 16:52:56 everything is awesome! 16:53:00 :) 16:53:00 cloudnull: +2 16:53:03 #endmeeting