15:00:43 <mattmceuen> #startmeeting openstack-helm
15:00:44 <openstack> Meeting started Tue Jan  2 15:00:43 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is mattmceuen. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00:45 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
15:00:48 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_helm'
15:00:48 <mattmceuen> #topic rollcall
15:01:04 <srwilkers> o/
15:01:06 <icolwell> o/
15:01:12 <mattmceuen> GM all!  Agenda: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-helm-meeting-2018-01-02
15:01:21 <portdirect> O/
15:01:24 <mattmceuen> Please add in anything else you'd like to discuss
15:01:29 <jayahn> o/
15:01:32 <d|k> o/
15:01:41 <mattmceuen> You have a big head this morning @portdirect, it must be your birthday or something :-D
15:01:58 * srwilkers didnt know it needed to be a special occasion
15:01:58 <d|k> prolly still throbbing from NYE
15:02:34 <mattmceuen> Happy New Year everyone
15:02:43 <sj019q> Happy new year.
15:02:48 <jayahn> Hppy new year!
15:03:01 <gmmaha> o/
15:03:11 <mattmceuen> So on the agenda are some of my new years resolutions for the OSH team :-D
15:03:22 <jayahn> I already spent two full days in 2018. not new anymore. :)
15:03:37 <mattmceuen> #topic Brainstorm making OSH more accessible to new contributors
15:03:58 <mattmceuen> There's still a lot of 2018 left jayahn!
15:04:02 <MarkBaker> o/
15:04:34 <mattmceuen> So upon reflection, it's become clear to me and others that OSH can be a tough beast to "get into"
15:05:18 <mattmceuen> To a large degree, that just comes with the territory.  OSH is the intersection of many different technologies, and very rarely do folks come having mastered them all already
15:05:25 <jayahn> probably too many new stuff to know, container, kubernetes, helm..
15:05:29 <jayahn> yeap
15:05:34 <mattmceuen> exactly
15:06:03 <portdirect> Also high hardware reqs
15:06:04 <mattmceuen> So our challenge to to make the ramp-up process more friendly and successful, so that folks don't get overwhelmed and go home :)
15:06:22 <mattmceuen> And to help it go as smoothly and quickly as possible
15:07:10 <sj019q> I made an etherpad about onboarding to OSH. Should I go ahead and share it?
15:07:17 <mattmceuen> I have a few embryonic ideas for how to approach this, around 1) more formalized mentoring relationships, 2) enhancing the onboarding docs to help folks learn the "prereqs"
15:07:44 <mattmceuen> Let me start a new etherpad
15:07:56 <portdirect> Both of those sound like good starting points
15:07:58 <mattmceuen> It is a good idea but I suggest let's start with brainstorming
15:08:48 <mattmceuen> The key being to come up with stuff that's generally applicable to anyone in the community, whether folks starting in a telco, in the OpenStack community, or the k8s community
15:09:57 <mattmceuen> In AT&T we're going to kick off some more formalized mentoring relationships, so stay tuned, those to whom that applies :)  but I'd really like to make that a broad concept in our community team
15:10:43 <mattmceuen> Do any of you have experience with formal mentoring in a community context?  I know OpenStack has a program like that, but I haven't been through it.  Ideas for how to get it started or pitfalls to avoid?
15:10:49 * mattmceuen sips coffee
15:11:05 <jayahn> cloud you define "mentoring relationships" a bit more? one-to-one or one to several?
15:11:21 <portdirect> Office hours?
15:11:30 <alanmeadows> Professor Mceuen?
15:11:43 <mattmceuen> So what I think we need is to basically pair up a new team member with someone who knows the ropes already, so that they don't feel / aren't "on their own"
15:12:11 <mattmceuen> alanmeadows you have a much more professorly demeanor
15:12:20 <srwilkers> portdirect: ++
15:12:24 <mattmceuen> office hours - great idea portdirect
15:12:27 <srwilkers> i think the office hours approach works well
15:12:40 <jayahn> office hours sounds good.
15:13:12 <mattmceuen> would those be office hours be in common for everyone, or would different... "professors" :) have different office hours?
15:13:27 <portdirect> using the material from openstack university would be a great starting point too.
15:14:13 <mattmceuen> +1
15:15:14 <portdirect> I'd be willing to do an hour a week for office hours, would love to do more but time is a scarce resource atm..
15:15:25 <alanmeadows> One artifact that is time intensive to produce but would pay dividends as an adjucnt to traditional improved documentation would be several animations showing certain key things "at play" and how they work - I have heard feedback that the small animation they produced for the "undercloud" at the OS edge summit finally allowed several people to understand what it was all for
15:15:34 <portdirect> seems like we have a US, and SK based quorums?
15:16:00 <portdirect> alanmeadows: you have a link to that?
15:16:06 <alanmeadows> I am searching for it now
15:16:14 <portdirect> we have some powerpoint masters here in STL.
15:16:21 <jayahn> there can be so many thing going "wild" while trying to do osh for the first time. office hour will be good to have, but can fall into "not really helpful" hours. we must have a good docs for anyone to follow to minimize unnecessary questions. (sorry, frankly speaking, i have not checked the recent osh doc progress)
15:16:36 <jayahn> animantion would be very good tools to make it easy to follow. :)
15:16:56 <alanmeadows> https://youtu.be/BdIzryvX7gc?t=11m37s
15:16:57 <srwilkers> yeah, they'd go hand in hand jayahn.  portdirect has been doing really great work in making sure that the docs we reference are gated and functional
15:17:51 <mattmceuen> What would you recommend for getting up to speed on k8s?  I've heard K8s The Hard Way a lot, but that seems more deep than broad and more ops than dev, so I'm wondering if there's anything good that has a dev perspective
15:18:37 <portdirect> re the docs - I've been doing all i can to make sure they work, and are gated, but have not had time to add anywhere near the level of explanation that is really required for a quality product, would be great for people to take this task on.
15:19:06 <portdirect> mattmceuen: thats a can-o-worms :) openstack-the-hard-way anyone?
15:20:21 <srwilkers> portdirect: i've been gradually building up the lma docs.  i'll start branching out and submitting patches for getting the other doc bits shored up as im able and waiting for gate runs
15:20:28 <mattmceuen> I definitely think that we should focus our own documentation efforts on OSH, rather than documenting k8s or openstack
15:20:28 <gmmaha> mattmceuen: pulling out the steps of installing the required packages and init followed by a nginx or busybox container would be good to show how k8s run. (i was inducted that way and thoyght it was good)
15:20:50 <mattmceuen> (and instead linking to existing high-quality curated resources for openstack and k8s)
15:21:02 <portdirect> ++ to that mattmceuen
15:21:32 <portdirect> k8s is just as big a world as openstack, there is no point reinventing the wheel.
15:22:10 <mattmceuen> gmmaha - I like that approach.  Start simple before digging deep.  Do you know whether there's a good guide out there that takes that approach?
15:22:21 <mattmceuen> tutorial-grade?
15:22:54 <gmmaha> mattmceuen: i don't. someone had that in their gisdt and that's what i followed.
15:23:04 <gmmaha> but we can write one for OSH
15:23:06 <mattmceuen> Well, in the interest of time, we may need to table the convo and defer it to the etherpad I created, and revisit next week -- that will give us all a chance to google.  Sound good?
15:23:14 <mattmceuen> https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/osh-onboarding-brainstorming
15:23:17 <gmmaha> +1
15:23:21 <alanmeadows> At some point, it may make sense to create a map of the k8s concepts we employ, with links to their specific k8s documentation, but that seems like a nice-to-have.  This would just help augment a basic k8s education.  In other words, OSH leverages the following: Init Containers, Annotations, Life Cycle, ...  Thats a rather simple task of building that link skeleton.
15:23:23 <d|k> it seems to me there are two, perhaps overlapping, audiences for the documentation: people who want to bring up OSH and use it, and contributors who need to understand how best to fit their work into the structure.
15:23:30 <mattmceuen> Cool.  I jotted down a couple things we touched on but not all yet
15:23:53 <mattmceuen> Good thought alanmeadows
15:24:55 <mattmceuen> good start to this topic guys - please add more ideas/resources to the etherpad, and let's continue discussing next week!
15:25:07 <mattmceuen> #topic Connecting the OSH team to the wider community
15:25:17 <mattmceuen> This follows from the previous topic
15:25:59 <mattmceuen> We are basically dragging folks into new communities that they were not a part of before, and we need to make sure they get properly introduced :)
15:26:06 <portdirect> so we need to get better at being advocates :)
15:26:07 <mattmceuen> And once they are, that we're sharing knowledge
15:26:39 <mattmceuen> Example:  I come from OpenStack, and I only recently learned that there's a SIG-OpenStack k8s group.  I'm planning to start joining that one
15:26:51 <mattmceuen> That would be good stuff to share within the team
15:27:54 <mattmceuen> Also letting folks know the latest news in the k8s world - the key bits from release notes, etc
15:28:20 <mattmceuen> This is stuff we learn but don't always share - let's start getting them into the OSH chat room as things-of-interest
15:29:13 <mattmceuen> Other thoughts on we can use OSH as a bridge between communities, specifically getting new team members plugged in in meaningful ways?
15:31:01 <mattmceuen> If you think of any more, jot 'em down in the same etherpad above
15:31:10 <portdirect> I think exploding openstack is a great way to go as a bridge, I'm currently working on a superuser piece for using ironic with osh
15:31:19 <portdirect> and another for stand alone cinder
15:31:32 <mattmceuen> nice!
15:32:13 <mattmceuen> #topic Feedback welcome and encouraged!
15:32:20 <mattmceuen> This is just a Public Service Announcement
15:33:14 <mattmceuen> I'm eager to serve you as your PTL - please don't hesitate to let us all know feedback and ideas in the OSH chat room, or to PM me if it's something you'd like to let me know in private.
15:33:41 <mattmceuen> Let me know what I can do, and I'll do the same :)
15:33:52 <jayahn> sure. :) you are always being a very good help.
15:34:00 <mattmceuen> thanks jayahn
15:34:09 <mattmceuen> #topic CICD focus meeting next week?
15:34:32 <mattmceuen> We have had one, very successful, automation / CI / CD / testing oriented meeting so far
15:34:44 <mattmceuen> It was intended to be monthly, then holidays happened
15:34:53 <mattmceuen> Want to kick it off again, next week?
15:35:08 <jayahn> Yes, as planned. (we said the every second week of the month, didn't we?)
15:35:35 <portdirect> think so
15:35:41 <mattmceuen> oh did we? I forgot.  Well that gets us right back on schedule.
15:36:32 <mattmceuen> Let me get the agenda to you early then:  https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-helm-meeting-2018-01-09
15:36:59 <mattmceuen> Let's start adding in any topics we'd like to discuss, and that'll also help make sure we get all the right folks in the meeting
15:37:31 <jayahn> good :)
15:37:54 <mattmceuen> #topic  Show and tell
15:38:02 <mattmceuen> Just one more New Years Resolution
15:38:32 <mattmceuen> Oftentimes the topics in our weekly meetings are around someone expouding on the work they're doing in some corner of OSH
15:38:51 <mattmceuen> I think these are incredibly valuable, and help keep us from getting too isolated in our own charts
15:39:38 <mattmceuen> So I want to add a standing agenda item to solicit ideas
15:40:09 <mattmceuen> ... for what to include next time.  The basically - what would you like to learn?
15:40:21 <mattmceuen> Talking about it in team meeting gives folks a whole week to prepare :)
15:40:49 <jayahn> I am not following.
15:40:53 <mattmceuen> Let me try again
15:41:10 <mattmceuen> My boss came and tapped me on the shoudler during that exchange and threw me off
15:41:41 <jayahn> ah.. now i am getting it.
15:42:04 <jayahn> a week advance noticement (or request) on things want to hear next time.
15:42:18 <jayahn> am i right on this?
15:42:21 <mattmceuen> There have been really good topics in our weekly meetings where folks describe the context and an overview for the things they're working on.  Lots of team members don't understand all the spooky corners of OSH yet, and every week I want to solicit ideas from the team of things they'd like to discuss "next time"
15:42:26 <mattmceuen> yup!
15:42:43 <mattmceuen> Would this be valuable?
15:42:46 <jayahn> okay. got it.
15:43:08 <sj019q> I think seeing what people are working on would help ramp me up for user stories.
15:43:24 <mattmceuen> perfect
15:43:36 <gmaurer> I agree with sj019q
15:43:40 <jayahn> yes, I think it can help. since we are not a team seeing everytime, everyday. this type of communication method will be good to have
15:44:10 <mattmceuen> Yeah - I'll call it "knowledge sharing", that sounds more professional than "show and tell" :)
15:44:45 <mattmceuen> which for those who did not grow up in the U.S. is something kindergarteners do in school
15:45:32 <mattmceuen> So on that note - are there any topics you guys would like to learn more about in an upcoming meeting?  If they're test automation related, we can cover them next week, and otherwise the following week
15:45:38 <jayahn> ah.. that has that backgroud meaning
15:46:10 <mattmceuen> jayahn:  yes, like "look at the macaroni picture I made of my family"
15:46:26 <mattmceuen> ... which is the topic to beat
15:46:43 <jayahn> how testing is done in osh gate. (probably i just need to read docs and code)
15:47:01 <mattmceuen> I will assign srwilkers to do a macaroni picture if we don't come up with something better.  Whew, jayahn saved you Steve
15:47:03 <jayahn> to learn how to contribute "test" side of osh gate
15:47:21 <srwilkers> mattmceuen: my life is nothing but making macaroni charts, so this will be easy ;)
15:47:33 <jayahn> damn.. i like srwilkers doing macaroni picture better than what I just typed
15:47:38 <mattmceuen> hahaha
15:47:38 <srwilkers> hahaha
15:48:06 <mattmceuen> jayahn - that's a good one, portdirect, could you give a quick overview of that next week?
15:48:53 <jayahn> We will compare that with our test method to figure out how we can minimize differences and so more contribution. :)
15:49:16 <mattmceuen> +1
15:49:34 <mattmceuen> Ok - last but not least
15:49:40 <mattmceuen> #PS needing eyes and reviews
15:49:55 <jayahn> hm can i do armada one here?
15:50:02 <mattmceuen> #topic PS needing eyes and reviews
15:50:29 <jayahn> since alanmeadows is here. :)
15:50:29 <mattmceuen> jayahn sure, we'll share it with the armada team :)
15:50:54 <jayahn> https://review.gerrithub.io/#/c/389047/ >> feat(override): Add to override list type of value
15:51:23 <jayahn> simeple addition, and seems like no one has a serious issue. :)
15:51:26 <jayahn> pls review it.
15:51:42 <jayahn> that ps will make us very happy to use armada more. :)
15:52:10 <mattmceuen> On it.
15:53:04 <mattmceuen> Some of the Armada guys had lots of vacation in Dec, and I'll make sure we get much better traction now in the new year.
15:53:38 <mattmceuen> alright
15:53:48 <jayahn> portdirect:
15:53:54 <mattmceuen> #topic roundtable
15:53:57 <jayahn> this is for preventing zombie process? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/530599/
15:54:26 <jayahn> pls add hyunsun as reviewer. :)
15:54:38 <portdirect> jayahn: not explicity, but to add robustness to the network namespaces that the neutron agents manage, without shared mounts i wouldnt use it
15:54:58 <portdirect> I should really add (DNM) to the title
15:55:11 <portdirect> but I do have something i'd like to bring up
15:55:29 <portdirect> how do people feel about making heat a required service for osh?
15:55:41 <portdirect> so that the default bootstrap jobs could leverage it
15:56:19 <portdirect> this goes counter to my usual stance of make eveything as loose as possible
15:56:26 <jayahn> something I need to talk with folks in my team.
15:56:46 <portdirect> but I'm continually mulling it over in my mind..
15:57:09 <portdirect> jayahn: would be great for your peeps to have a think about it
15:57:18 <jayahn> yeap.
15:57:24 <portdirect> I'm totally up for being told "dont be so silly port direct" ;)
15:57:29 <jayahn> you have ps on this, right?
15:57:34 <mattmceuen> portdirect is there any good way for the bootstrap job to use it "if it's there", and skip if it's not?
15:57:38 <portdirect> jayahn: no
15:57:51 <portdirect> mattmceuen: there is, but its a bit ugly/verbose
15:57:58 <jayahn> i remember seeing heat somewhere.....  in dream?
15:58:07 <jayahn> ah. okay
15:58:31 <alanmeadows> portdirect: what does that forced requirement buy?
15:58:42 <alanmeadows> is there something you can do there that you cant without it?
15:58:57 <alanmeadows> jayahn: I think we call that a nightmare
15:59:10 <jayahn> ah.. https://review.openstack.org/#/c/530592/
15:59:24 <jayahn> this one :).. consilidating heat... i remembered. :)
15:59:33 <mattmceuen> We're about out of time - let's move this one to the OSH chat
15:59:34 <jayahn> not important. :)
15:59:45 <mattmceuen> thanks all!
15:59:49 <portdirect> alanmeadows: it allows cleaner management of things like flavours/images
16:00:01 <mattmceuen> #endmeeting