15:01:09 <portdirect> #startmeeting openstack-helm
15:01:10 <openstack> Meeting started Tue Aug  6 15:01:09 2019 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is portdirect. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:01:11 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
15:01:13 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_helm'
15:01:20 <portdirect> lets give it a few mins for folks to arrive
15:01:32 <portdirect> agenda is here: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-helm-meeting-2019-08-06
15:01:38 <portdirect> #topic rollcall
15:01:44 <howell> o/
15:01:51 <lamt> \o
15:01:58 <megheisler> o/
15:01:59 <mattmceuen> o/
15:02:08 <srwilkers> o/
15:02:20 <dwalt> o/
15:02:23 <georgk> \o
15:02:24 <cheng1> o/
15:02:32 <evrardjp> o/
15:02:39 <evrardjp> \o
15:02:42 <evrardjp> (for parity)
15:02:59 <georgk> :)
15:03:02 <gagehugo> o/
15:07:12 * gagehugo hands srwilkers a rather large trout
15:07:21 <portdirect> ok - sorry folks
15:07:41 <portdirect> #topic LOCI and friends
15:08:23 <mbuil> o/
15:08:43 <portdirect> there is a post on the ml that i'd invite everyone to read: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-discuss/2019-July/008130.html
15:09:14 <portdirect> in summary chris (the LOCI ptl) has proposed the idea of moving loci to live under OSH's care
15:09:23 <portdirect> this is a tricky subject for me
15:09:30 * srwilkers grumbles
15:10:08 <portdirect> in that i was involved early on in the genesis of both OSH and LOCI (back when it was yaodu)
15:10:22 <portdirect> and one of the things we strived for then was agnosticity
15:10:36 <portdirect> osh deployed and managed openstack services on k8s
15:10:46 <portdirect> and loci built openstack services into oci images
15:11:39 <portdirect> we did this as we felt, partly based on the learnings we had had with previous projects, seperation was critical to long term evolition and sustainability
15:12:01 <portdirect> that said, things evolve
15:12:42 <portdirect> and so i think it would be great for us to weigh up the pros and cons of such a move
15:13:05 <portdirect> and following that propose some paths forward
15:13:44 <mattmceuen> separating osh from the containerization project allowed us to vary the containerization independently, which in hindsight was a good move for us.  If we bring loci under the osh roof, would we be tying osh to loci, or still support alternatives?
15:13:50 <portdirect> i've started a few strawmen on the etherpad, and evrardjp has put some things up to: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/openstack-helm-meeting-2019-08-06
15:13:53 <mattmceuen> (albeit theoretical alternatives)
15:14:20 <portdirect> i'd very mush hope that we continue down the agnostic path
15:14:21 <evrardjp> mattmceuen: as a user, I would need to have something else available
15:14:36 <portdirect> ^ evrardjp is a prime example of why we need to
15:14:42 <mattmceuen> ++
15:15:24 <evrardjp> for me the biggest question is, what will the DNA of loci become?
15:15:57 <portdirect> I think, personally, one of the issues with loci is that its very stable
15:16:02 <evrardjp> what I mean by that is -- if we tie loci and osh, we will surely reduce the tech debt of both by being more opinionated -- but that has an impact on both projects
15:16:05 <portdirect> there are some architectural changes that could be made
15:16:20 <portdirect> but many orgs are using it now, in production, very successfully
15:16:46 <portdirect> `we will surely reduce the tech debt of both by being more opinionated` this is what i'd like to avoid if possible
15:17:03 <portdirect> id like tech debt reduction
15:17:18 <portdirect> but not close coupling via opinionation
15:18:19 <evrardjp> I don't think I meant change the coupling
15:18:44 <evrardjp> but for example, we could take more decisions in the bindep. Assuming this, we will have to carry less code inside our zuul things
15:19:09 <evrardjp> but then we'll take an opinion for OSH in that case, which will be opposite to some deployer's point of view of LOCI being agnostic of the deploy tool
15:19:23 <srwilkers> personally, i'd rather loci stay separate from openstack-helm
15:19:32 <srwilkers> i've got strong feelings about this proposal
15:20:06 <evrardjp> srwilkers: strong against than for?
15:20:11 <srwilkers> yes
15:20:15 <evrardjp> could you clarify?
15:20:45 <srwilkers> having been a kolla-kubernetes core before openstack-helm became more mature, i have an issue with the image building process and the deployment tooling being tightly coupled
15:20:52 <srwilkers> i saw what it did to kolla
15:21:02 <itxaka> agreed with srwilkers here, separate seems the way of keeping it as its own thing instead of just coupled osh, which would inevitably end up if we merge it
15:21:05 <srwilkers> i do not want to support openstack-helm going down the same path
15:21:12 <evrardjp> (I am not saying I am in favour or not btw -- I want to follow the community)
15:21:53 <portdirect> mattmceuen: thoughts?
15:22:11 <mattmceuen> yeah, that's where my head is at srwilkers... learnings from kolla-kubernetes.  I see only some reward as far as reduction of debt in moving loci into osh, but  a lot of risk
15:22:15 <evrardjp> srwilkers: we kinda re already nowadays, when we think of it, because we consume mariadb/... images
15:22:21 <srwilkers> no
15:22:31 <evrardjp> then I am not sure to understand the difference :)
15:22:38 <mattmceuen> are there other ways we could achieve some of chris' goals, like expanding the loci core team?
15:22:40 <evrardjp> sorry to ask for clarifications
15:23:15 <evrardjp> mattmceuen: I think it's not about the core team per se, but I guess having more ppl in the core team could invalidate the move
15:23:40 <portdirect> i think this convo speaks volumes on how loci has served us very well
15:23:49 <portdirect> but now we need to step up, and serve loci
15:24:14 <itxaka> what is the problem that we are trying to fix here? Slow review times in loci?
15:24:53 <evrardjp> I don't think that's the problem
15:25:15 <mattmceuen> chris did call out "increase review velocity" in the email
15:25:26 <portdirect> itxaka: at its heart, the rate of change in loci, and the time that people like chris have to put into the admin of the project
15:25:56 <portdirect> i think openstack stuggles to support a truely 'stable' project :D
15:26:03 <mattmceuen> ha
15:26:37 <evrardjp> afaik the premise of the move was the "largest consumer of each other's work"
15:27:08 <mattmceuen> yeah, but that doesn't sound like a problem that needs to be solved
15:27:21 <srwilkers> that doesn't sound like a problem at all
15:27:24 <mattmceuen> the problem I saw in the email was "review velocity"
15:27:58 <mattmceuen> and combining projects would be a convenient way to try to solve it
15:28:08 <srwilkers> i'm very much against that approach
15:28:09 <mattmceuen> but it's also not the only way - and it comes with some risks
15:28:13 <srwilkers> once again, going back to kolla
15:28:27 <evrardjp> I didn't say it was a problem per se :)
15:28:30 <itxaka> IMO review velocity and time sinked in the project does not seem like great gains against merging the project and making it coupled with osh
15:28:55 <evrardjp> from what I take from the convo, it seems to be a willingness to keep the governance separate
15:29:24 <evrardjp> did I summarize correctly?
15:29:29 <portdirect> taking a simple mood of the room, im sensing that supporting an independent loci is the preferred path?
15:29:38 <mattmceuen> that's how I lean, although I'm open to good counter arguments :)
15:29:52 <portdirect> itxaka, srwilkers ?
15:30:07 <srwilkers> absolutely portdirect
15:30:29 <mattmceuen> portdirect: with the caveat that we should try to support loci some other way if possible to make sure it's well cared for
15:30:54 <mattmceuen> so we're "consumers" not "freeloaders" :)
15:30:54 <itxaka> =+2
15:30:58 <srwilkers> mattmceuen: nothings stopping anyone in the openstack-helm team from reviewing changes in loci or being involved with the project
15:31:36 <evrardjp> by using loci in the first place, I would expect encourage even :)
15:31:36 <srwilkers> but one of my complaints about kolla's governance model back in the day was that frankly, i didn't care to work with the ansible deployment of kolla images or the kolla image building project itself
15:31:51 <srwilkers> all i cared about was working with kolla-kubernetes, because that's where my interests were
15:32:04 <portdirect> ok - I'll talk to chris
15:32:05 <evrardjp> that's a different problem IMO
15:32:14 <srwilkers> it's not a problem at all
15:32:22 <evrardjp> sorry, wrong term
15:32:32 <portdirect> in the meantime - I think its our duty to continue to support loci, and do so more than we have been recently
15:32:34 <evrardjp> that's a different topic than governance
15:32:35 <srwilkers> it's all open source projects, and people are going to work on what interests them
15:33:03 <portdirect> `it's all open source projects, and people are going to work on what interests them` never a truer set of words spoken in irc
15:33:35 <mattmceuen> I think we're all in violent agreement
15:33:46 * srwilkers grabs his rather large trout
15:33:53 <evrardjp> I fail to see where the violence is :)
15:34:09 <evrardjp> except on the large trout of srwilkers
15:34:21 <itxaka> I love the violent agreement phrase :)
15:34:26 <mattmceuen> lol just an exageration.  we're all passionate about doing the right thing
15:34:35 * portdirect bites tongue, something something 'ica
15:34:45 <evrardjp> mattmceuen: that's good :)
15:35:14 <evrardjp> I am not sure we are all talking about the same things though. I am fine with the answer that will be given anyway :)
15:35:42 <portdirect> yeah - sounds like a lot of diff reasons, but a similar consensus
15:35:43 <evrardjp> I am going with the flow
15:37:20 <portdirect> ok - lets move on
15:37:29 <portdirect> #topic open floor
15:37:48 <portdirect> before we move onto reviews, anything else we should be thinking about this week?
15:38:19 <itxaka> The heat. Be sure to drink lots of water
15:38:24 <evrardjp> itxaka: +1
15:38:33 <evrardjp> thanks for the reminder
15:38:39 * evrardjp drinks now
15:39:06 <evrardjp> itxaka, that funny guy who genuinely cares about us.
15:39:15 <itxaka> you know it
15:39:23 <evrardjp> all hail to itxaka \o/!
15:39:30 <evrardjp> hahah
15:39:42 <portdirect> itxaka: where are you based?
15:39:52 <itxaka> Madrid, Spain
15:39:56 <evrardjp> (any reference to a Matt Groening anime is completely not planned)
15:40:10 <portdirect> oh my
15:40:29 <portdirect> itxaka, id just sit in a freezer if i were you
15:40:39 <itxaka> oh thats a good question for the open floor, where is everyone based on?
15:40:54 <itxaka> I know JP's location but not anybody elses
15:40:57 <portdirect> 34c (95f for some) is too hot!
15:41:07 <itxaka> elses doesnt exist, sorry about that :)
15:41:19 <portdirect> I'm in st louis, atm
15:41:35 <mattmceuen> same - sunny sunny st louis
15:43:04 <cheng1> About the re-arrange meeting time, has the voting ended?
15:43:30 <portdirect> it has, but it conflicted with the airship meetings, which i belive also conflicted with themselves
15:43:53 * mattmceuen is very conflicted
15:43:59 <portdirect> so we need to hold again, to ensure we dont have people attempting to attend 3 meetings at the same time
15:44:31 <portdirect> i'm getting my head round the voting tool, and will get time options out shortly
15:45:25 <cheng1> portdirect, got it
15:46:03 <portdirect> #topic reviews
15:46:14 <portdirect> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/p9VriVqD/
15:46:17 <evrardjp> oh my bad my reference was incorrect, it was "all glory to the hypnotoad" not "all hail to the hypnotoad" -- same idea though
15:48:07 <evrardjp> anything else?
15:48:31 <portdirect> i think thats it
15:48:32 <evrardjp> I wouldn't mind reclaiming 12 minutes
15:48:37 <evrardjp> woot
15:48:40 <evrardjp> thanks everyone
15:48:46 <portdirect> #endmeeting