13:00:01 <eumel8> #startmeeting openstack_i18n_office_hour
13:00:01 <openstack> Meeting started Thu Jul 19 13:00:01 2018 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is eumel8. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:00:02 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
13:00:04 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_i18n_office_hour'
13:00:11 <ianychoi> Hi
13:04:27 <jamesmcarthur> ianychoi: do you have a few minutes to chat re: Edge translation?
13:04:49 <eumel8> Hello
13:05:15 <eumel8> Hi ianychoi, jamesmcarthur
13:05:27 <jamesmcarthur> hello!
13:05:35 <ianychoi> jamesmcarthur, hello!
13:06:25 <eumel8> jamesmcarthur: I've got you. You want a new version for Edge Computing guide now in HTML style. This is valid for me.
13:06:48 <jamesmcarthur> Yeah, I just wanted to hopefully clear up any concerns about the way we went about it.
13:06:56 <ianychoi> Is it available now (Edge Computing white paper for HTML)?
13:07:00 <jamesmcarthur> And discuss possible changes that could make it easier for hte translation team
13:07:24 <eumel8> jamesmcarthur: yes, it's clear now. Also about the costs for pdf design
13:07:25 <ianychoi> I have been waiting for seeing on Zanata since I wanted to see differences on source strings.
13:07:33 <jamesmcarthur> ianychoi: I don't think Sebastian has uploaded it yet, but will put up this morning.
13:07:42 <ianychoi> jamesmcarthur, aha.. thanks :)
13:07:56 <jamesmcarthur> eumel8: ok great... it's unfortunate, b/c the PDF is obviously a nicer output
13:08:07 <jamesmcarthur> but it's just very cost prohibitive for the foundation
13:09:11 <jamesmcarthur> I also want to discuss the RST format that Akihiro created.  Is that the preferred method for i18n team?
13:09:50 <ianychoi> jamesmcarthur, I understand - I was initially worried about how translated PDF stuff were generated since the work needs some human-effort
13:09:53 <jamesmcarthur> ianychoi: I'll update that email thread as soon as it's up. Thanks to you and eumel8 for adjust the Zanata permissions for us.
13:10:54 <amotoki> hoenstly I have no preference on the format
13:11:06 <jamesmcarthur> oh hi amotoki: :)
13:11:06 <ianychoi> Just one thing I want to clear now is that translation start on txt files assumed that translated publish from translated resources would be available to all the languages?
13:11:26 <amotoki> any format would be okay if it can be automated and continuous publishing is achieved
13:11:44 <jamesmcarthur> right, so the new version that we put together will work the same way as user survey
13:12:04 <jamesmcarthur> where we do either a manual pull from zanata OR it will update via a nightly pull
13:12:12 <amotoki> we already have a way to publish documents continuously for RST format. there is no more reason than that.
13:12:46 <jamesmcarthur> Once a language po file is marked as complete, we will ingest it and update our db w/ the po files. Then the language will automatically appear as a selection in the dropdown.
13:12:50 <amotoki> yeah, I know how user survey translation version is published.
13:13:09 <amotoki> jamesmcarthur: is there any easy way to update translations?
13:13:46 <jamesmcarthur> amotoki: can you clarify the question? Do you mean, is there a way to modify the translation after it's published?
13:13:55 <amotoki> from my experience the initial version of translation is NOT perfect and we usually updates trnaslation after reading the initial publishment
13:14:00 <jamesmcarthur> i see
13:14:06 <amotoki> jamesmcarthur: yes!
13:14:12 <jamesmcarthur> yes. if you update the po files, we will reingest nightly
13:14:18 <ianychoi> I18n team is accustomed with RST-based publication, and I am sure that Foundation is more accustomed with dealing with Silverstripe. Being open on how publish using Silverstripe is worked and when Silverstripe-based translated strings are updated would be nice
13:14:27 <amotoki> this is what we expect for most openstack translations
13:14:59 <jamesmcarthur> The problem is, it's not immediate. We just do the updates nightly. I can see if we can increase the update intervals.
13:15:23 <amotoki> it sounds enough.
13:15:49 <ianychoi> jamesmcarthur, could you share when it is updated? For example, translated strings RST documents are synced from 6:00 UTC and the job usually finishes within 3-4 hours.
13:15:51 <jamesmcarthur> Ideally, I'd like to get to a place where it's painless for i18n team. We want to start doing more translations.
13:15:51 <amotoki> translations for RST documents from the project teams are updated by a daily job
13:16:23 <jamesmcarthur> amotoki: we do the same. It's a nightly job. Runs around 1am Central, I believe
13:16:31 <jamesmcarthur> And it's very quick.
13:16:41 <ianychoi> jamesmcarthur, thank u for good info
13:16:58 <amotoki> for the edge compuiting whitepaper, translations other than zh-CN are published now?
13:17:04 <jamesmcarthur> That's why I think we could run it more frequently on shorter intervals.  I'll check on that
13:17:26 <amotoki> re the frequency of the update, I believe daily is enough
13:17:44 <jamesmcarthur> amotoki: not yet. We need the RST version moved over to the po files, and then we will turn on the new HTML veresion of the Edge page
13:18:49 <amotoki> do we convert it into RST version?
13:19:16 <jamesmcarthur> amotoki: if you could, that would be ideal.  However, there will be some slight differences b/c the Edge paper is HTML i/o PDF.
13:19:28 <jamesmcarthur> Sebastian's putting the file up now in the original Edge project
13:19:37 <ianychoi> I think we might need to discuss: 1) when can we regard *release*d publication on whitepapers 2) what if the source of *release*d whitepapers is updated in future? 3) Can Foundation also provide translation checksite for whitepapers before final releasing, as what we did for user survey translation? 4) In a long term, I would like to document similar as https://docs.openstack.org/i18n/latest/release_management.html
13:20:15 <amotoki> ianychoi: nice summary!! thanks
13:20:45 <jamesmcarthur> 1) Moving forward, translations on whitepapers will publish nightly. This is a brand new Silverstripe template, so we want to make sure it's not broken before we publish.
13:21:21 <jamesmcarthur> 2) If the source of the whitepaper (the HTML), it updated in the future, we will resubmit updated pot files to Zanata
13:21:30 <jamesmcarthur> (like we do w/ user survey)
13:22:03 <jamesmcarthur> 3) I think we can set up another translation review site... let me check on a few things.
13:22:40 <jamesmcarthur> 4) I'd be happy to work with you on documenting the process :)
13:23:09 <amotoki> for 3), we can check translations with published versions, though it would be nice if we can check translations before publishing it but it is not a requirement :)
13:23:51 <jamesmcarthur> amotoki: I completely agree. I've been noodling on a few things this morning. I'm going to talk with smarcet and bounce some ideas off of him.
13:24:13 <jamesmcarthur> I'd prefer something close to real time review of po files
13:24:21 <jamesmcarthur> in the proper HTML format
13:24:27 <ianychoi> By the way, for PDF stuff, translating idml file (one of InDesign source files for text) is available on Zanata and I have been testing a little bit through translate-dev site: https://translate-dev.openstack.org/iteration/view/ianychoi-test-odp/master/documents?docId=OpenStack_EdgeWhitepaper_v3_online.idml (screenshot: https://prnt.sc/k8fpg1 and https://prnt.sc/k8fpqd ). After downloading translated idml file & replacing to a source should
13:24:27 <ianychoi> work by additionally setting fonts unless translated strings is not longer than original strings..
13:24:29 <jamesmcarthur> That seems easier to do for whitepapers than for user survey
13:25:04 <jamesmcarthur> ianychoi "unless translated strings is not longer than original strings" - that's really the crux of the problem
13:25:16 <ianychoi> (I do not have InDesign license but last week I tested with my designer colleague)
13:26:20 <ianychoi> jamesmcarthur, yes.. I really understand this problem after my trial. If a designer manually copies & pastes translated strings, the problem would be much worse..
13:26:23 <jamesmcarthur> I'll take a look at the idml test
13:26:45 <jamesmcarthur> ianychoi: right... it can get messy very quickly
13:27:00 <jamesmcarthur> and something that seems "right" to the eye, might make no sense in the actual language
13:27:41 <jamesmcarthur> So unless you're fluent in all languages, it makes it tough to sort out the layout.
13:27:52 <ianychoi> I agree and for PDF stuff, moving to HTML for translation targets is preferred way for me.
13:28:07 <jamesmcarthur> ok cool
13:28:13 <amotoki> +100
13:28:24 <amotoki> for 4) the process of the publishing translations, perhaps the i18n team would like to clarify how it is published because the delay of the edge computing translation publishing make the i18n team nervous.
13:28:36 <amotoki> the point is how we can automate the process
13:28:43 <amotoki> it seems we are in the same page :)
13:28:51 <jamesmcarthur> amotoki: right, agree 100%
13:29:22 <jamesmcarthur> moving forward, the only delay will be the nightly update. I mean, once the po files are complete, we should ingest and display automatically on the site.
13:29:44 <jamesmcarthur> the new silverstripe whitepaper template we developed for Edge and Containers will work for all future whitepapers
13:29:59 <jamesmcarthur> and will create the pot files automatically
13:30:11 <jamesmcarthur> I hope that we will see a much quicker turn around
13:30:25 <ianychoi> That's fine since po <-> rst sync is also daily - but it would be nice if a translator with development knowledge can test locally or eumel8 previously shared translation checksite and he updated frequently for horizon... :)
13:30:34 <jamesmcarthur> Further, I appreciate everyone's patience while we worked on the template.
13:31:02 <jamesmcarthur> ianychoi: right, understood. I'll see if I can come up with a solution for that.
13:31:20 <jamesmcarthur> I'd say let's just continue to communicate about pain points and see how we can make everyone's life easier.
13:31:31 <ianychoi> jamesmcarthur, thank u :)
13:32:19 <amotoki> I am happy to see good progress like today's discussion :)
13:32:30 <jamesmcarthur> Of course! Please feel free to reach out to me on IRC or email if you all are experiencing any problems.
13:32:41 <ianychoi> eumel8 seems to do parallel meeting with other one, but IMO how about announcing translation target on Zanata for whitepapers after clarifying and implementing all the syncs?
13:32:43 <jamesmcarthur> I'll let everyone know as soon as the edge pot files are up
13:33:43 <amotoki> perhaps it is better to announce the current situation on how and when translations are published.
13:34:08 <amotoki> it was explained in the ML thread, but it is better to announce it officially
13:34:33 <amotoki> personally I don't think we need to have a notification for every update of POT files.
13:35:00 <jamesmcarthur> amotoki: sure, just let us know how you'd prefer it to be handled
13:35:01 <eumel8> I'm here but nothing to add ;) I only can announce my company are graciously support now the I18n translation checksite with resources. Maybe we try to install on the top https://github.com/OpenStackweb/openstack-org/blob/master/installation.md
13:35:10 <ianychoi> For edge computing whitepaper, where would be some source string differences on a source string without HTML markup and another source string with HTML markup. Translators can easily translate with translation memory but I am not sure how many similarities on source strings are there (~80%? ~70%?) because of HTML markups.
13:35:56 <amotoki> yeah, we see some differences in POT/PO files on zanata and the published English vesion of the whitepaper.
13:36:50 <ianychoi> If there are so high similarities, then eumel8 might announce that "Please simply check new translation sources for edge computing whitepaper for HTML publish soon within 1-2 weeks"
13:37:24 <ianychoi> If similarity ratio is not high, then eumel8 might announce it with longer period for translation..
13:38:07 <jamesmcarthur> ianychoi: I think that's probably the best path. I believe it should be very similar, but I'm not 100% sure where the differences are from the PDF to the HTML
13:38:34 <ianychoi> jamesmcarthur, If you have time during upcoming PTG on Mon or Tue, I would like to discuss how to document such stuff better on I18n contributor guide :)
13:39:09 <jamesmcarthur> Yes sir. That sounds great :)
13:39:34 <jamesmcarthur> I'll be sitting in on the Ops meetup most of Mon/Tues, but let's just schedule an hour or so to talk.
13:40:34 <ianychoi> Aha yep about about 1-2 hour would be fine :)
13:41:39 <jamesmcarthur> OK - I'll send out an invite just so we can hold some time.
13:42:01 <ianychoi> Translation memory functionality is so nice in Zanata, although I don't know how to export translation memory in translate.openstack.org
13:43:29 <jamesmcarthur> I have to run and take my daughter to school. Any other quick thoughts? I can come back online in about 30 minutes.
13:43:53 <eumel8> all fine, I think
13:43:56 <ianychoi> Translation stuff for HTML-based edge computing whitepaper source strings would not be difficult, but I have been thought how we share translation period again for the same document with a little bit different format. If we define process clearly, then that would be fine I think.
13:44:17 <ianychoi> jamesmcarthur, nope please take care of your daughter since family is important :)
13:44:43 <jamesmcarthur> ok :)  Thanks to all of you for your time this morning. I hope I didn't take up all of your office hours!
13:45:14 <eumel8> that's why we're here ;)
13:45:18 <ianychoi> jamesmcarthur, thanks a lot for coming to I18n office hour!
13:47:38 <eumel8> so
13:47:46 <eumel8> other topics?
13:48:21 <ianychoi> eumel8, I wrote a comment on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/581000/ but any other questions on your patch work?
13:52:42 <eumel8> ianychoi: move from L176 to L222? Sorry, I don't get the point
13:54:09 <ianychoi> eumel8, calling "handle_project_doc" function in handle_python_django not in "case "$PROJECT" in" (your patch)
13:55:20 <eumel8> mhm, but for example i18n isn't a python or django project. So I would keep it separatly.
13:55:56 <ianychoi> eumel8, from my understanding on the shell script, python_django projects can have also releasenotes and documentation
13:56:16 <ianychoi> Then why releasenote translation support is in python_django? :)
13:56:54 <ianychoi> Also, developing per-translation ratio check on doc-install, doc-admin, and so on would be needed...
13:58:20 <eumel8> yes, but for the future we want to remove this extra rule set for i18n and have only one function for doc translation based on a check if a doc directory is in the repo with a conf file
13:59:43 <ianychoi> I don't think that my saying only applies to i18n - releasenotes applies to all python_django projects. What I want to tell now is that I want to stay the same as documentation translation support stuff & releasenotes translation support stuff..
14:00:25 <ianychoi> The purpose of diving one doc into doc-admin, doc-install, and so on is to build translated document at least doc-admin, doc-install, and so on as far as I know..
14:00:45 <ianychoi> For releasenotes, translated horizon releasenote for one release is available.
14:00:59 <eumel8> ianychoi: otherwise submit your proposal in my patch, please. I think it's easier before I'm going crazy with permanently reading this shell script ;)
14:01:46 <ianychoi> eumel8, I see but the file is just real life of shell script... :)
14:02:58 <eumel8> ianychoi: I know, depends on time I have also no other solution for the moment. I think a ansible role is what we want at the end with all this kind of tasks
14:04:34 <ianychoi> eumel8, plz help how to define and develop such ansible role :) I am not still so good at them..
14:06:04 <eumel8> ianychoi: maybe you want to join the OSA team. Lot's of people for help there  ;)
14:07:06 <ianychoi> eumel8, thanks but for me finding my next career has more priority nowadays....
14:07:20 <eumel8> ok, will close the Office Hour if there are no more suggestions
14:07:24 <eumel8> #endmeeting