15:04:22 <amrith> #startmeeting openstack-swg
15:04:23 <openstack> Meeting started Tue Nov  8 15:04:22 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is amrith. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:04:24 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
15:04:26 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_swg'
15:04:30 <amrith> #chair gothicmindfood dhellmann
15:04:31 <openstack> Current chairs: amrith dhellmann gothicmindfood
15:04:33 <amrith> here we go again
15:04:45 <jroll> for the record: http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/irc-meetings/tree/meetings/swg-meeting.yaml
15:04:51 * dhellmann is in a second meeting, so only paying partial attention for a bit
15:04:53 <amrith> courtesy ping ttx, jroll, johnthetubaguy, sdague, mordred, carolbarrett, nikhil, mugsie, thingee, alexismonville, edleafe, EmilienM, harlowja, devananda, bastafidli
15:05:05 * jroll is listening but has a conflicting meeting to watch
15:05:10 <amrith> #agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SWGMeeting
15:05:18 <amrith> hello all.
15:05:22 <ttx> ohai
15:05:24 <GheRivero> o/
15:05:24 <mugsie> o/
15:05:29 <amrith> I'm trying to figure out why my calendar appointment is at the wrong time
15:05:34 <amrith> but I can do that in parallel
15:05:38 <amrith> sorry for the delay starting the meeting
15:05:51 <amrith> #topic Review/recap Barcelona events
15:06:04 * mordred waves at the lovely people
15:06:05 <amrith> gothicmindfood is on a plane or some other place with questionable wifi
15:06:20 <amrith> #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/Barcelona-SWG-cp
15:06:27 <amrith> #link
15:06:37 <amrith> #link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juGktZ3xabA
15:06:43 <amrith> I was unable to attend the CP meeting
15:06:56 <amrith> so if someone else who was there wants to fill in details about that it would be good
15:06:57 <mugsie> I got the CP meeting, but not the panel
15:07:06 <gothicmindfood> so I thought the CP meeting went really well
15:07:33 <ttx> yes, I think the reception was generally positive
15:07:33 <gothicmindfood> I didn't manage to get any drawings up beforehand per alexismonville 's suggestion
15:07:42 <mugsie> yeah. It highlighted the need for some concise docs about the core concepts that we have been talking about
15:07:45 <jroll> +1
15:07:52 <gothicmindfood> but it turned out that folks wanted a servant leadership explanation so I ended up doing one
15:08:10 <mugsie> gothicmindfood: yeah, I think that helped quite a few people
15:08:33 <gothicmindfood> and mugsie is totally right - lots of people seemed to want in on some basic understanding of some of hte core concepts we talked about in leadership training
15:08:43 <jroll> I took an action item to add servant leadership to our principles, btw, that's here
15:08:45 <jroll> #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/390864/
15:09:31 <gothicmindfood> jroll: \o/
15:09:54 <ttx> now we need to make sure people realize this is not about adopting someone else framework, but more about realizing a lot of those concepts were already practiced within openstack
15:09:54 <amrith> jroll, that review is up for discussion at the tc meeting today, yes?
15:09:59 <ttx> yes
15:10:36 <jroll> yep
15:10:42 <gothicmindfood> awesome.
15:10:48 <jroll> ttx: want me to respin that between now and the tc meeting?
15:11:19 <amrith> jroll, given ttx feedback, that sounds like a good thing. If you could do that, there's a chance to get this merged at the meeting
15:11:24 <ttx> probably wait and see what the reception is, unless you agree with the changes
15:11:35 <ttx> but yes, what amrith said
15:11:46 <jroll> okay, will do :)
15:11:51 <amrith> or what ttx said ;)
15:12:27 <ttx> The way it stands it reads a bit too much like "We follow the 6 Sigma[tm]"
15:12:29 <gothicmindfood> so that's a good start - a lot of folks in both sessions seemed keen on the idea of communicating the principles/culture bits of OpenStack to their own management chain
15:12:33 <jroll> heh
15:12:37 <gothicmindfood> haha
15:12:43 <amrith> I understand where Eoghan is coming from and it may be worthwhile to make the change.
15:13:10 <ttx> We don't want people to disregard the whole thing out of jargonpathy
15:13:11 <amrith> as someone who wasn't at the session; what were the things that were discussed that got the most interest, reaction?
15:13:11 <jroll> yeah, I think so
15:13:14 <amrith> communication?
15:13:17 <amrith> principles?
15:13:19 <amrith> culture?
15:13:25 <amrith> what the heck is this group?
15:13:32 <amrith> something else?
15:13:57 <ttx> amrith: I think people were interested in formalizing concepts a bit, and give tooling/help to leaders in our peculiar env
15:13:59 <gothicmindfood> amrith: it felt a lot more like an explaining session with a little bit of therapy thrown in than an organizing-our-next-piece-of-work session
15:14:20 <mugsie> what the concepts were, and what a lot of terms meant
15:14:31 <gothicmindfood> but that doesn't mean it didn't have pointers towards a direction that migh tbe useful for us
15:14:41 <amrith> and other than the jroll action item, what were the other things to do, (actions) and next steps?
15:14:50 <ttx> In summary: "Leadership in OpenStack is very special, but there are tools and frameworks that exist that can help us, the SWG is there to explore those and help you in your work"
15:14:57 <mugsie> and then a brief diverengece for "how to build teams"  :)
15:14:58 <amrith> were there any gotchas or "don't you dare's"?
15:15:06 <gothicmindfood> amrith: I asked more people to come to the meetings, and to participate.
15:15:26 <ttx> amrith: no don't you dare's. Those were all in the concurrent live upgrade session, I think
15:15:34 <gothicmindfood> hahaha
15:15:36 <amrith> I see one new name today; GheRivero. Hello!
15:16:21 <GheRivero> amrith: hi all! o/
15:16:31 <amrith> GheRivero, were you at the CP meeting?
15:16:46 <gothicmindfood> there was some confusion about how to solve the gnarly "people problems" with all of this conceptual stuff
15:16:58 <GheRivero> only the last part of if... so can't be really helpful
15:17:15 <amrith> cool, what did you think of it (the parts you were able to attend)
15:18:19 <amrith> gothicmindfood, that came up in the panel as well, to an extent.
15:18:25 <gothicmindfood> yup
15:18:31 <amrith> so, sounds like no other action items.
15:18:39 <amrith> thx jroll for finishing your TODO.
15:19:02 <amrith> that seems like a good transition to our next item
15:19:04 <amrith> #topic Organize feedback from Barcelona sessions & turn into action items for SWG
15:19:05 <GheRivero> I got the idea that one  of the key "problems" by PTL and managers are the different people's cultures
15:19:23 <amrith> interesting
15:19:42 <GheRivero> what can be normal for people in Europe or AMS, can be really rude on Asia... and vice versa
15:19:46 <jroll> I'd say more of a "hard thing" than a "problem", but yeah, that was echoed
15:19:59 <gothicmindfood> GheRivero: and also, interestingly, at the panel discussion there was a request for more resources to communicate OpenStack's culture to internal companies
15:20:05 <amrith> I did not hear this from others in their feedback about the CP. anyone want to elaborate on this? I know I've said this about code reviews in the past but didn't realize that it came up in the CP.
15:20:12 <ttx> yes that's orthogonal to the servant leadership stuff in a way, but something we definitely struggle with
15:20:43 <ttx> amrith: that was raised as a "people" problem that is hard to solve
15:20:53 <amrith> jroll, ttx, gothicmindfood ... this sounds like a thing to follow up on some more
15:21:14 <ttx> it's like a completely different set of problems, but which thise group could also tackle
15:21:22 <ttx> this*
15:21:25 <gothicmindfood> yeah, ttx and mordred mentioned (I think?) something about a discussion at the board meeting around providing more resources for companies who are participating in openstack
15:21:33 <amrith> and interestingly, looking at https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/Barcelona-SWG-cp it does not appear to be listed
15:21:34 <gothicmindfood> is that a thing we might want to work with the board on?
15:21:59 <ttx> helping user companies be successful in their dev investment, which includes building a multiculturally-friendly contribution env
15:21:59 <amrith> gothicmindfood, I was in that session; board+tc. and yes, that's something I agreed to help with as well.
15:22:20 <ttx> we are not bad, but we are not really good either
15:22:21 <gothicmindfood> amrith: awesome.
15:22:57 <gothicmindfood> I think the "many cultures" problem is sort of orthogonal to leadership problems, but it intersects when it come sto defining and writing down principles/culture/ways we agree to work with one another
15:24:20 <amrith> ok, so an action item ...
15:24:46 <amrith> #action follow up on the tools and resources to help companies build their contributions in a multiculturally friendly way that best benefits OpenStack
15:24:53 <amrith> let's give that to ttx :)
15:24:59 <amrith> #action [ttx] follow up on the tools and resources to help companies build their contributions in a multiculturally friendly way that best benefits OpenStack
15:25:09 * gothicmindfood appreciates amrith keeping us on track
15:25:22 <amrith> any other action items coming out of BCN?
15:25:27 <gothicmindfood> ttx: I'd love to sort through those things with/for you, if you want help there :)
15:25:44 <gothicmindfood> I'd like an action item for us to be figuring out what we want to accomplish between now and the PTG
15:25:58 <gothicmindfood> it's a short period of time
15:26:12 <amrith> #action [gothicmindfood] to drive the creation of a list of deliverables for PTG
15:26:47 <gothicmindfood> quick q related to our Barcelona vision: did people find it effective/helpful?
15:27:02 <gothicmindfood> because it might help to draft a vision for sessions/work at the PTG, too
15:27:06 <amrith> I did
15:27:28 <GheRivero> sure, it was
15:27:33 <amrith> but I'm an 'insider'. I wonder what others felt
15:27:52 <gothicmindfood> I, personally, found it way easier to feel "successful" at the end based on what we wrote, and how we clarified our expectations
15:28:31 <gothicmindfood> GheRivero: what did you find helpful about it?
15:28:49 <gothicmindfood> jroll: what did you think about it?
15:29:26 <jroll> gothicmindfood: the vision? I think it helped, yes
15:29:39 * ttx rereads it
15:30:14 <GheRivero> in my case, since I was developer before manager, I had plenty of gaps about all the leadership and people... still have, but now  I know were to focus my efforts
15:30:31 <gothicmindfood> our Barcelona vision, for folks playing at home:
15:30:35 <ttx> gothicmindfood: a bit optimistic, especially on the panel attendance :)
15:30:37 <gothicmindfood> #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/BarcelonaSWGMagic
15:30:55 <gothicmindfood> ttx: yes, but even that optimism is valuable to see in hindsight
15:31:15 <gothicmindfood> I know now that focusing recruiting for sessions is super important
15:31:18 <gothicmindfood> :)
15:31:24 <ttx> gothicmindfood: so you're not really supposed to do a vision retrospective and enumerate the various ways you failed, right ?
15:31:52 <ttx> It's more a tool to build the future than a tool to judge the past iiuc
15:31:52 <gothicmindfood> ttx: there is no failure, there is oonly opportunity for growth :)
15:32:07 <mugsie> the problem with tryiong to recruit for these sessions is they appeal to a limited sub set of attendees
15:32:20 <ttx> mugsie: I think that is fine
15:32:35 <mugsie> I managed to drag two people along, and they got good value from it
15:32:42 <ttx> The prime reason for this group to exist is that it's not the type of issues that most people like to solve
15:32:44 <mugsie> but they would not have gone otherwise
15:32:58 <jroll> ttx++
15:33:04 <gothicmindfood> mugsie: thanks for recruiting :)
15:33:18 <ttx> I happen to like solving those, but I recognize I'm a bit special. Or so my mom used to say
15:33:42 <amrith> so I think one thing that I got out of the sessions in BCN was a conversation I had with gothicmindfood one morning where I asked her what I thought the SWG was. Her answer to that (which I will let her talk about) is something that I think may be worthwhile sending to the ML.
15:33:59 <amrith> s/what I thought/what she thought/
15:34:02 <gothicmindfood> amrith: oh god, now I have to remember what I said
15:34:05 <gothicmindfood> remind me?
15:34:09 <amrith> so I think one thing that I got out of the sessions in BCN was a conversation I had with gothicmindfood one morning where I asked her what she thought the SWG was. Her answer to that (which I will let her talk about) is something that I think may be worthwhile sending to the ML.
15:34:39 <amrith> ok, the answer (paraphrasing slightly) was that the SWG was the place where people can have the hard converations that they have no other place to have.
15:35:09 <amrith> it is an extension on the theme of how often have you (openstack community person) been in an openstack related conversation on some forum where you have bitten your tongue and not said what you wanted to say.
15:35:30 <amrith> here's the place where you can say (some of) those things.
15:35:37 <amrith> not all ... some :)
15:35:49 <jroll> ++
15:36:00 <jroll> that was brought up somewhere, can't remember if it was the panel or CP session
15:36:07 <gothicmindfood> amrith: I'd append that to say "here's the place where you can find resources to help you figure out how to say those things effectively and constructively" :)
15:36:11 <amrith> the others, you don't want to say. or email. or put in IRC ... because if you do, you'll have to delete those emails and we all know what happens then.
15:37:10 <gothicmindfood> I don't just want us to put out a 10cent therapy jar - I want us to help every single person in the community be able to move forward with a problem they have that they might not otherwise feel empowered to work through
15:37:46 <gothicmindfood> ok
15:38:03 <gothicmindfood> so I am going to work on a vision for hte PTG for the next two weeks
15:38:09 * dhellmann charges 25cents
15:38:31 <gothicmindfood> dhellmann: you could get away with at least twice that :)
15:38:41 <dhellmann> gothicmindfood : friends and family discount
15:39:04 <gothicmindfood> I'd love some help, so I'll talk in the -swg channel about it when I get a semi-working draft up
15:39:17 <gothicmindfood> from that vision, hopefully our action items/work will spring
15:39:25 <gothicmindfood> does that sound good to everyone?
15:39:31 <dhellmann> ++
15:39:52 <johnthetubaguy> ++
15:39:57 <amrith> so, gothicmindfood what about my suggestion to get this on the ML
15:40:05 <amrith> at least the part which was "what is the SWG"
15:40:07 <amrith> to the ML
15:40:18 <gothicmindfood> I also have an action item to get rolling on organizing the next in-person training for next year
15:40:22 <gothicmindfood> amrith: ah, okay
15:40:27 <amrith> so that maybe we can get the 10c for your time (and 25c for dhellmann). these are tough times and every penny counts ;0
15:40:29 <gothicmindfood> I'll take that as an actio nitem too :)
15:40:46 <gothicmindfood> #action gothicmindfood to write a basic concept of the SWG to the ml
15:41:02 <amrith> #action [gothicmindfood] Send a note to the ML about the SWG; what's the SWG? we're your one stop "Ask Colette" column :)
15:41:32 <amrith> sounds good. anything else about BCN; I want to also timecheck; we're 41 min in..
15:41:37 <gothicmindfood> #action gothicmindfood to reach out to new tc members to find out about possible training dates for 2017
15:42:01 <gothicmindfood> any thoughts from folks who attendthe panel session on how that went?
15:42:03 <amrith> good point, ttx ok to throw that in the "open discussion" at the tc meeting today?
15:42:18 <ttx> sure
15:42:23 <ttx> we should have time
15:42:42 * gothicmindfood may or may not be there based on travel constraints
15:42:47 <gothicmindfood> (I'll try thought)
15:43:02 <gothicmindfood> okay, should we have a throwdown abou ta new meeting time now? ;)
15:43:08 <amrith> gothicmindfood, I'll toss it in the ring at the right time.
15:43:10 <ttx> yes!
15:43:15 <amrith> #topic Discuss rescheduling meeting time based on new attendees (and gothicmindfood's changed schedule)
15:43:27 <amrith> gothicmindfood, you have the floor ...
15:43:32 <gothicmindfood> so - my schedule is a little bonkers the next two months
15:43:40 <gothicmindfood> and I need to move our meeting time because of that
15:43:47 <gothicmindfood> Tuesdays are out entirely
15:44:26 <gothicmindfood> and I want to be very mindful of ttx 's timezone and everyone else in Europe, and also mindful of hte fact that we are pretty much excluding our APAC folks right now with our timing
15:44:28 * amrith thinks it would be important to move the meetings to accommodate gothicmindfood's schedule.
15:44:58 * amrith also thinks sleep is overrated
15:45:06 <ttx> gothicmindfood: when can you make it ?
15:45:06 <gothicmindfood> I uploaded the current meeting schedule to view in an ical, and it looks like this time (1500 UTC) on Wednesdays is booked with four other meetings
15:45:25 <ttx> let me see I may have freed up a slot there
15:45:35 <ttx> ah, no, that one is pretty solid
15:45:38 <gothicmindfood> but I could certainly do 1400 UTC, which only (according to the most recent ical I could find) has two meetings scheduled on Wednesdays
15:46:08 <ttx> ed 14 works for me
15:46:11 <ttx> Wed*
15:46:16 <jroll> 1400 any day wfm
15:46:20 <gothicmindfood> that change (1400 UTC on Wednesday) is probably the least disruptive/most like our current time
15:46:21 <ttx> Actually better than this time slot where I'm in pre-call mode
15:46:32 <ttx> also slightly more APAC-friendly
15:46:40 <jroll> 1400 is 6am for west-coasters, which isn't ideal but hey
15:46:47 <gothicmindfood> PST-ers are gonna have to have some coffee on wednesdays, for sure
15:46:52 <gothicmindfood> yeah
15:47:40 <gothicmindfood> how many pst-ers do we have currently participating?
15:48:00 <gothicmindfood> also - this is really just for the next two months, and we could maybe change it back later/if more PSTers were interested in attending
15:48:11 * jroll has no idea how many PST folks we have
15:48:13 <jroll> indeed
15:48:16 <gothicmindfood> does that sound okay to everyone?
15:48:32 <gothicmindfood> dhellmann: how is your 1400 on wednesdays?
15:48:50 <ttx> odd weeks on Wednesday at 1400 UTC on #openstack-meeting-4 is free
15:48:51 * dhellmann checks
15:49:11 <dhellmann> wednesday is currently my only uninterrupted day, so I would rather not add a meeting there, really
15:49:30 <ttx> or odd weeks on Wednesday at 1400 UTC on #openstack-meeting
15:49:30 <amrith> 9am eastern on wednesdays is when I'm driving ...
15:49:31 <dhellmann> oh, and I do have a conflict at that time
15:49:38 <dhellmann> it's just not a meeting
15:49:45 <gothicmindfood> dhellmann: but we can inspire you with leadership at the beginning of your day!
15:49:48 <gothicmindfood> hm
15:50:13 <dhellmann> thursday same time?
15:50:21 <gothicmindfood> the 1400 and 1500 time slots on thursday seem super booked
15:50:26 <gothicmindfood> (4 meetings each there right now)
15:50:31 <dhellmann> ah
15:50:33 <ttx> I'm pretty sure I just freed up some
15:50:44 <gothicmindfood> ttx: ah! which ones?
15:51:37 <ttx> Bilean
15:52:14 <gothicmindfood> ok, so that's 1400 UTC on Thursdays
15:52:18 <ttx> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/394842/
15:52:21 <amrith> so, are we feeling we'll get this scheduled now or do we want to take it offline to a doodle?
15:52:23 <gothicmindfood> amrith: I assume that's still your normal commute time?
15:52:32 <amrith> gothicmindfood, which day?
15:52:38 <amrith> thursday, I can handle that
15:52:42 <gothicmindfood> I'd like to do it now, if we can manage.
15:52:45 <gothicmindfood> awesome
15:52:58 <gothicmindfood> dhellmann: 1400 on Thursdays?
15:52:58 <amrith> ok, you have 6 minutes :)
15:53:13 <dhellmann> gothicmindfood : yes
15:53:18 <gothicmindfood> sweeeeet
15:53:52 <dhellmann> starting this week or next?
15:53:57 <gothicmindfood> who would like to take the action to change our meeting time to odd thursdays, at 1400 UTC?
15:54:05 * dhellmann is down from 3 to only 2 concurrent activities
15:54:08 * gothicmindfood already has all hte action items and feels it's only appropriate to share :)
15:54:13 <amrith> is that time available (meetingroom ?)
15:54:28 <ttx> amrith: just replace https://review.openstack.org/#/c/394842/
15:54:39 <gothicmindfood> amrith: yup, hte Bilean team meeting is getting moved out of #openstack-meeting-3
15:54:41 <CarolBarrett> Hi All - Got lost in the time change, sorry for being late.
15:54:52 <gothicmindfood> CarolBarrett: hey! Awesome to see you!
15:54:53 <ttx> before someone else steals it :)
15:54:59 <amrith> #action [amrith] take over bilean time for openstack-swg
15:55:08 <CarolBarrett> I'm not likely to make 1400 UTC, will follow in IRC logs
15:55:24 <ttx> biweekly-odd #openstack-meeting-3
15:55:40 <amrith> ok
15:55:54 <gothicmindfood> CarolBarrett: oh, bummer. I have a personal resolution to make #openstack-swg a little more active in the meantime so hopefully we can talk lots there, too
15:56:17 <CarolBarrett> gothicmindfood: sounds good!
15:56:59 <gothicmindfood> thanks for chairing while I'm on a plane, amrith !
15:57:23 <gothicmindfood> should we give everyone a couple minutes back?
15:57:26 <amrith> #topic Open Discussion
15:57:49 <gothicmindfood> ha
15:58:21 <gothicmindfood> actually - I would really really really love any good leadership book recommendations anyone has
15:58:31 <gothicmindfood> and we can take this to -swg
15:58:55 <dhellmann> gothicmindfood : we should start a shared list somewhere
15:59:03 <dhellmann> maybe the wiki -- this group needs a place to write things down
15:59:07 <gothicmindfood> dhellmann: ++
15:59:28 <ttx> "Where in the world is my team" by Terence Brake -- good for distributed team management
15:59:45 <gothicmindfood> ttx: ooooh, that could be super useful
16:00:24 <ttx> A bit dated now but formed most of my theory on community management
16:01:18 <ttx> also more original than just recommending "Drive" :)
16:01:25 <gothicmindfood> :)
16:01:33 <gothicmindfood> okay, let's take book discussion to -swg
16:01:45 <gothicmindfood> thanks for attending everyone, and thanks amrith for leading us today!
16:01:47 <ttx> (which is exceleent but everyone knows it)
16:01:50 <amrith> #link  https://review.openstack.org/395057
16:01:55 <amrith> that's the review for the meeting change
16:02:00 <amrith> with that, time to move to -swg ...
16:02:03 <amrith> #endmeeting