23:00:06 #startmeeting product-team 23:00:07 Meeting started Wed Apr 15 23:00:06 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is sarob. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 23:00:08 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 23:00:10 The meeting name has been set to 'product_team' 23:00:15 roll call 23:00:28 Carol's here 23:00:36 geoff too 23:00:37 * sarob o/ 23:00:39 mikec as well 23:00:54 helo helo 23:01:05 Scott's here 23:01:18 agenda 23:01:22 #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/product-team 23:01:38 im dragging myself back into the fold 23:01:53 o/ 23:02:01 #topic socialization status 23:02:15 whatca got mscohen? 23:02:33 actually we are waiting to get the last few updates from PTLs 23:02:49 Is Trove the only one left? 23:02:50 i believe scott, carol were chasing them down 23:03:22 Ironic is done and in the etherpad 23:03:24 it looks like trove only now 23:03:29 I talked with Eoghan for Ceilometer and am working on getting Nikhil 23:03:50 great - so pretty close on wrapping that up 23:03:53 Hi. 23:03:59 * nikhil_k checks if he's the right Nikhil 23:04:26 * sarob is the right sarob? 23:04:38 here's the email I've used: 'slicknik@gmail.com' 23:04:44 is that right? 23:04:51 nope, sorry guys 23:04:56 he's the other one ;) 23:05:05 Can you give me his email? 23:06:00 https://review.openstack.org/#/c/172337/ has it 23:06:09 Thanks! 23:06:17 Also nikhil@manchanda.me 23:07:27 The review item shows the slicknik email address too 23:08:17 arakdy here 23:08:22 mscohen so whats after 23:08:24 hey 23:08:26 I'll work on getting the Trove update this week and send a note out the ML when I have it 23:08:36 ok, other than trove 23:08:42 we need to work on the presentation 23:08:56 need to figure out what team wants to be involved and i think a voice call would be good 23:09:08 what team? 23:09:13 For the Summit or the Cross-project meeting ahead of the Summit? 23:09:18 like project? 23:09:20 what set of people actually want to help build slides 23:09:27 oh, right 23:09:33 +1 on voice call 23:09:38 +1 23:09:52 +1 23:10:03 +1 23:10:05 +1 23:10:09 would folks be open to doing it tomorrow at this time? 23:10:25 +1 23:10:28 maybe at 15 past the hour? 23:10:30 -1 23:10:32 +1 23:10:38 -1 for tomorrow this time. 23:10:47 +1 for tomorrow 23:10:52 +1 23:11:01 #info trove is the remaining project to gather info on 23:11:05 Austin OpenSTack meetup tomorrow 23:11:16 kewl 23:11:24 What about all pre-incubation projects? 23:11:53 its prob worth noting they exist — but maybe not covering all of them? 23:12:08 we dont use that word anymore :) 23:12:11 I think the incubation projects are a 2nd priority 23:12:12 Stack rank, see which we can get to? 23:12:25 One we get things going, then we can reachout to them 23:12:34 As long we have a story as sarob points out we do not use that term anymore 23:12:38 id stick with the projects in hand 23:12:51 we cannot use core either - but only hwat defcore defines 23:12:59 i will send out to ML a webex link for tomorrow if thats ok 23:13:21 sarob +1 23:13:23 we can point out other non-openstack repo projects are interesting 23:13:38 Is there a cheat sheet with politically correct terminology? 23:13:43 but we limited our limited scope to just openstack repo projects 23:13:56 * rosmaita also needs terminology cheat sheet 23:13:57 basic idea applies to them - upgrade, log formats, and a couple of others. 23:13:57 I think we should stick with the information on the projects we identified, whatever they may be called now. 23:14:14 i was kinda joking about the incubation term 23:14:24 just call them openstack projects 23:14:43 that was always the bump to being incubated 23:14:52 Well, there are lots more in the openstack repo, now. but they weren't there for Paris, so how about the world as it was in Paris projects? 23:15:11 getting your code repo moved into the openstack repo org in github 23:15:24 rockyg: that works for me 23:15:37 like congress just got added 23:15:48 rockyg: works for me 23:15:49 scope creep 23:16:09 Are you discussing the new "official" projects inclusion? 23:16:10 we can add a bit on we are going to refresh 23:16:17 once we hit pace 23:16:27 shamail: yup 23:16:31 I think what we are syaing these are the projects we are coordinating for now. Others will be added in the future 23:16:38 right 23:16:45 +1 Arkady_Kanevsky_ 23:16:46 but information we are driving across projects are applicable to all 23:17:21 right - new projects are likely to be enthusiastic consumers... 23:17:26 +1 Arkady 23:17:48 +1 23:17:48 +1 23:18:01 Arkady_Kanevsky_: you mind changing your nick to Arkady? 23:18:11 nope 23:18:23 will repsond to it 23:18:27 "/nick arkady" 23:18:39 full name is sooo hard to type 23:18:47 and formal 23:19:11 Get a better IRC client sarob 😆 23:19:17 I feel so "white bread" using "geoffarnold", but I have done for years, so... 23:19:24 well i never 23:19:33 ill all good 23:19:43 its all good 23:19:58 y'all post your meeting date and time to the ML 23:20:02 I'm just playing. 23:20:06 so others can join in 23:20:15 There are more and more work that starts in one project and then goes to all others. 23:20:19 * sarob no longer speaks to shamail 23:20:20 i will send out an email about it 23:20:31 sounds like most can do this time tomorrow to get a start 23:20:33 I am looking at nested project hierarchy now. 23:20:54 arkady: nested? 23:20:55 Sounds good mscohen, although this time for EST is brutal. :( 23:21:08 yes. nested 23:21:13 NESTED??? 23:21:23 mscohen, could we make it earlier for central and east coast? 23:21:26 Inspired by Hierarchical Multitenancy? 23:21:31 ok, earlier is ok with me 23:21:36 project, subproject, and so on. with user hierarchy to match 23:21:38 Or H23Y as I call it.... 23:21:40 what about 11am PT? 23:21:44 I'll make it. Whatever works for majority 23:21:58 either is fine for me tomorrow 23:21:59 arkady: we are de-nesting 23:22:06 -1 for morning 23:22:16 -1 for morning too 23:22:19 Tomorrow I can meet between 3:00 - 5:00 pacific or 9:00-11:00 AM pacific 23:22:20 arkady: as the programs are going away 23:22:24 Arkady_kanevesky_ is the guy who can't make late. 23:22:29 how about later? 23:22:33 so just openstack projects with tags 23:22:38 Let's stick with this time, especially since you already have notice 23:22:41 I can do 1-2, 3-5 PT 23:22:52 sarob: +1 tags would be good start 23:23:09 ok, i will set it for 3pm PT. seems to work for most and earlier on east coast 23:23:10 im totally slammed tomorrow, so count me out 23:23:16 ill catch up on the ML 23:23:22 sarob/shamail: why not stick with the world as it was inParis? 23:23:42 * sarob as we were in paris 23:23:56 As a starting point for Vancouver? Sounds good. We do need a scalable plan by Tokyo 23:23:58 K.I.S.S. 23:24:02 barrett ++ 23:24:04 Yep ^ 23:24:19 agreeed 23:24:19 I think barbican and filesystem as a Service passed incunbation criteraio for Kilo 23:24:32 Vancouver = integrated-release tags only (which were the integrated projects before this release) 23:24:41 Tokyo = plan to include all projects with tags 23:24:44 we need to present findings and make some assumptions 23:24:49 Barbican, congress, Rally, Mistral, Murano... 23:24:55 Is there really a need to include any add'l projects beyond what we've done so far? 23:24:56 Openstack Client 23:25:12 Seems like a good starting point for the basic process, discussion with PTLs, etc. 23:25:13 Zaqzr 23:25:15 there will always be outliers 23:25:16 They did Arkady... But for this one why don't we keep it to what used to be integrated (not incubated) 23:25:41 For Vancouver, we'll make a call to others in the community and can add more user groups (ex. Telco) as well as other projects. 23:25:44 Integrated-release tag for now, official tag going forward 23:25:46 I would include Tempest since it is foundation of CI and devstack 23:25:50 barrett +1 23:26:06 +1 to both barrett and Arkady_Kanevsky_ 23:26:13 I don't want us to get stuck in data gathering mode, we have alot of things to do with the data we have 23:26:19 member that we are not trying to be complete 23:26:31 Is tempest part of Infra project? 23:26:47 rather make progress with the concept of the multi-release 23:26:50 barrett: no. Its part of the QA Program 23:26:52 plans 23:26:55 So what did we decide here for Vancouver scope? 23:26:58 sarob +1 23:27:05 I would like to limit but be impactful initially 23:27:16 Projects are just one of the dimensions; another is which aspects of each project we attempt to coordinate 23:27:17 i vote we proceed with what we have plus trove 23:27:26 sarob +1 23:27:28 +1 sarob 23:27:30 sarob: +1 23:27:32 +1 23:27:34 +1 23:27:39 +1 23:27:40 okey dokey 23:28:40 we beat this topic into submission? 23:28:42 tempest will be pulled automatically in to any coordination since it is openstrack CI. 23:28:51 sarob - i think so 23:28:57 yes 23:29:15 we will cover slide tomorrow 23:29:20 we do not need to include it per se but as part of required eco system for release 23:29:25 so skipping the second agenda item 23:30:12 do you want to touch on possible meeting day/time at the summit for this group? 23:30:27 And session with others in the community? 23:31:07 EMC/VMware also have a room that we can use for another half-day face to face session if we want. I wanted to mention this again since the notes were lost from the last meeting. 23:31:40 yes to f2f. ANy place will do 23:31:55 Are you thinking of Friday morning? (Given that Friday is working sessions.) 23:32:24 If we want to leverage the room I offered that it has to be Monday through Thursday 23:32:31 Seems like having the cross community session early in the week would be good, and then our working meeting later in the week could work 23:32:42 I'm in a book sprint on Friday 23:32:50 same 23:32:54 friday is last design day where each project agree what to work on for next release. 23:32:55 Monday might be good since there are no design or ops meetings scheduled 23:33:03 We should attend these. 23:33:13 Monday works better 23:33:17 +1 23:33:40 We have our breakout session on Monday 23:33:48 So it would have to be after that 23:34:01 We could work over lunch on Monday (12:45 - 2:00) 23:34:07 It would be good to regroup with the feedback fresh on our mind. 23:34:24 Or use that time to reach out to the community and then work after that 23:34:27 I would have to miss most of it. I present right after our breakout too. 23:34:51 Thursday dinner? 23:34:54 Can we do after 2P? 23:35:01 How about using a doodle to find a time? 23:35:10 That's a good idea 23:35:40 This is for a breakout session, beyond the time provided to us by the foundation. 23:36:07 Welcome back sarob 23:36:13 Hopefully you still have chair? 23:36:15 that was wierd 23:36:25 Hard to schedule Wed/Thur until the Design Summit shed is nailed down, to 23:36:26 ready to move to our charter> 23:36:35 shed->sched 23:36:41 Agreed. 23:36:46 Shamail: We need to set the time for our meetings with the foundation - whether it's our group meeting or the other 23:36:59 shamail: it will timeout after 10 min 23:37:01 did we decide to use a doodle? 23:37:03 Sarob, do you have any updates on timings for meeting during the summit? 23:37:12 yes to doodel 23:37:15 doodle 23:37:22 +1 barrett 23:37:27 geoffarnold: I think shed might be the right word;-) 23:37:34 OK - I'll send it out on the ML 23:37:36 sigh. yes 23:38:16 i grabbed two hours right after WTE 23:38:20 barrett: my offer is in case we want more time for face to face discussions. Agreed that both need to be scheduled. So maybe doodle for official meeting and then we can also ask interest in an extended face to face? 23:38:47 18 monday, 2-3:30pm 23:38:51 ok 23:38:57 shamail +1 23:39:14 looks like freenode is having issues 23:39:29 Cool 23:39:41 Yep. 23:40:11 what is next on agenda? charter? PTL? 23:40:18 do we want to set aside time for xproject as well? 23:40:27 sarob +1 23:40:33 Yes +1 23:40:35 sarob +1 23:40:39 arkady: right my topic change didnt take 23:40:46 do we need time to TCs for it? 23:40:53 I will send out my room offer on the ML 23:40:56 I think we should have xproject before a working meeting 23:41:08 barrett: +1 23:41:13 +1 carol 23:41:26 #link https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15QBMiX3LKA3zRnDvhXzreRGkw5SuPNpbDwjDBBV3nMc/edit?usp=sharing 23:41:28 +1 23:41:30 check it out 23:41:45 i dont want to be greedy, but it makes sense to me 23:41:54 That schedule looks great 23:42:05 sweeet 23:42:21 How about reversing the product and xproject times? 23:42:54 sounds good 23:42:55 go for it 23:43:06 or even 1 wg meeting before the xproject and 1 after? 23:43:21 hmmm 23:43:31 thinking prep and wrapup 23:43:43 That will make it hard to dive deep in anything. 23:43:46 i was thinking a block of time 23:43:56 90 minutes is pretty short 23:43:57 shamail - true 23:44:06 for 15-20+ people 23:44:14 sarob - true 23:44:23 opinionated people 23:44:31 i'd prefer longer blocks 23:44:55 mouthy, opinionated people ;-) 23:45:14 #topic workflow with xproject, ptls slash our charter 23:45:37 1/2 days is about right with goo division between sessions. 23:45:40 did i capture the topic correctly? 23:45:51 anything more and will we start loosing people to other activities 23:46:21 cool 23:46:33 I think so 23:46:38 #link https://docs.google.com/document/d/13JPDDiBGGXf5dtP0u8C-1So2Mjb3yEmGhv_ijVqyEf0/edit?usp=sharing 23:46:47 sarob: I think it's ok - the focus is what we want to discuss at the cross-project meeting with the PTLs ahead of Vancouver 23:47:17 barrett: and workflow is what they will want to hear 23:47:20 Youve lost me.... 23:47:36 how are we going to work with them and not add extra work 23:47:37 Workflow + Scope 23:47:42 maybe take some away 23:47:56 They would want to make sure we are not duplicating their efforts and what value we provide 23:47:58 shamail +1 23:48:09 def 23:48:19 what we know should be tight 23:48:28 Yep 23:48:33 what we dont know should be spelled out 23:48:39 we applify their voices 23:48:40 One way is to make sure that what is being sold as priority work for each project is actually wanted be a good sized customer base 23:49:02 rockyg: lost me 23:49:14 small words plz 23:49:16 That Google Docs URL caused Safari to crash 23:49:36 geoffarnold_ my evil plan is complete 23:49:42 sorry. so, projects prioritize blueprints. but what if nobody wants what the blueprints are selling? 23:49:52 sarob: LOL 23:50:11 Help them weed out outliers on what they want to work on 23:50:35 rockyg: right im with you 23:50:36 happens all the time... "abandoned" everywhere 23:50:42 completes of the story across projects and positioning for markets 23:50:57 Yup. 23:51:08 so we need the workflow to make it 23:51:10 still here 23:51:15 for project people to 23:51:24 rockyg +1; what data would we use to demonstrate customer demand? 23:51:25 product i mean 23:51:26 Byebye geofarnold..Oops. Hi again. 23:51:39 Customer surveys> 23:51:40 to provide input and feedback to ptl 23:51:44 Chicken and Egg... I think pre-summit we need to state what our charter, what are workflow for accomplishing it looks like, what are gaps currently, and why/how we would like their help 23:51:52 that they can trust isnt biased 23:51:59 on one commercial interest 23:52:04 At summit and beyond: we can work on use cases population and then blueprints eventually 23:52:09 and has some facts behind it 23:52:17 Can we start google doc and all comment on it. - too hard to do on IRC 23:52:23 I like the use case approach 23:52:35 Yeah. Use cases is real important and more product focused community members are creating them 23:53:00 barrett: so WTE and other wg use a structured use case 23:53:06 Telco 23:53:12 as patches to xproject 23:53:19 we also need to ensure that we are not just giving them more work and adding developers is a part of the process 23:53:26 that is not going to sell to PTL. it is marketing telling engineering what to do. we will alienate them 23:53:35 then projects pick up the use cases 23:53:51 work with others to prioritize 23:54:09 If we can categorize what they are working on to what the use cases are, Devs can focus on getting the *right* functionality soonest 23:54:17 Use cases -> project blueprints -> resources to help if you are interested in use case 23:54:29 +1 23:54:36 shamail +1 23:55:14 and blueprints --> use cases --> scenario tests 23:55:17 The resources is key - and remember there are ~10 companies that provide the majority of the development resources. we'll need to harness this to make it work. 23:55:24 When do we feel we would be ready for this meeting? 23:55:40 Rockyg: +1 23:55:41 And further back, verticals (NFV, WTE, ...) generate requirements w/use cases 23:55:44 Also need a project tracker for each use case - break out requirements by OpenStack project and track progress 23:56:16 +1 for verticals and requirements. 23:56:16 barrett: everything we say and do has to end witj ... AND DEVS TO HELP 😄 23:56:33 barrett: you just said a naughty word -- project tracker -- lots of devs think those are EVIL 23:56:47 Shamail - I think we need a phone call amongst this team to get our act together. 23:57:01 okay so lets debate some on the ML how to come up with verticals through a workflow 23:57:03 +1 barrett 23:57:04 This also goes back to the comments from Nova PTL 23:57:04 Use cases explain/support features (epics, whatever - high level biz objectives) 23:57:06 rockyg: when I've shown the one I created for rolling upgrades I've gotten positive response 23:57:09 Agreed, we have differing approaches even amongst us. 23:57:19 yup 23:57:25 part of the fun 23:57:40 Can we put a stake in the ground for when we need to have the PTL discussion? 23:57:41 barrett -- project tracker -- needs to be very visual for them to use. Graphs and icons and stuff, not spreadsheets 23:57:50 use cases = epics, blueprints = stories 23:57:58 PERT charts FTW 23:58:02 sarob: ++ 23:58:05 sarob: is ML best or should we schedule hangout or call? 23:58:06 that was always my thinking 23:58:36 ML some of the concepts and then schedule a hangout over the ML 23:58:41 is good approach 23:58:44 +1 23:58:48 +1 23:58:50 +1 23:59:01 +1 23:59:03 Sounds good 23:59:26 done for today? 23:59:28 #action team debate high level workflow over ML over next few days 23:59:53 #action sarob will propose a hangout after debate, before next IRC meet 23:59:55 We are at time limit but wanted to share Rockyg PTL noninations etherpd 00:00:02 fyi: a tool that has already gotten some good press in OpenStack dev community: http://phabricator.org/ 00:00:18 See if we can use for tracking projects 00:00:29 rockyg: still early 00:00:30 Ill check it out Rockyg 00:00:37 thanks. 00:00:43 ditto 00:01:05 okay, sorry we didnt make it all the way thorugh 00:01:05 i used trello cards 00:01:19 continue on the ML my friends 00:01:24 cheers 00:01:28 thanks 00:01:29 this is sort of the direction the devs are heading now that storyboard is not moving fast enough 00:01:31 NP, im glad! Its a first for us sarob 00:01:37 bye 00:01:37 Thanks! 00:01:43 bye 00:01:46 #endmeeting