21:01:36 #startmeeting product_working_group 21:01:37 Meeting started Mon Nov 23 21:01:36 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is sarob_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 21:01:38 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 21:01:40 The meeting name has been set to 'product_working_group' 21:01:56 hi sarob_ 21:02:02 \o/ 21:02:31 o/ 21:02:37 hi all! 21:02:43 o/ 21:02:59 o/ - IRC only, and not just because of the email I sent :) 21:03:12 #info agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/product-team 21:03:15 I am IRC only as well 21:03:16 Howdy shamail 21:04:00 Etherpad for this meeting https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PWG_11_23_15 21:04:02 o/ 21:04:06 o/ 21:04:09 no etherpad for this one I thought? 21:04:19 hello all 21:04:19 etherpad was only temporary while we were adjusting IRC schedules 21:04:26 #topic IRC and or conference call for meeting 21:04:46 shamail ok, no worries 21:04:57 agenda for today 21:04:59 #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/product-team 21:05:31 np hughhalf :) 21:05:44 #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/product-wg/2015-November/000869.html 21:05:50 o/ I'm on 21:06:44 sarob_: can you please let us know on IRC when the vote happens too 21:07:13 On the topic of IRC meetings #link http://jjasghar.github.io/blog/2015/11/18/characteristics-of-a-successful-chatroom-meeting/ 21:07:33 #link http://jjasghar.github.io/blog/2015/11/18/characteristics-of-a-successful-chatroom-meeting/ 21:07:36 sarob_ Makes the observation in the voice call that experience has shown that trying to use voice, IRC and Etherpad tends to mean that the detail resides in whatever is used most 21:08:01 sarob_ went on to note that this probably means it makes sense to coalesce down to one channel if possible 21:08:12 So before I call for a vote on this topic 21:08:14 * hughhalf will defer to sarob_ to correct him 21:08:30 Who else wants to discuss 21:08:38 thx hughhalf, our channels have been basically calls and IRC 21:09:07 historically, we did a better job in maintaining links/actions in IRC but that has dropped off 21:09:19 True 21:09:28 I think the real candidates (personally) are: 1) IRC only and 2) IRC + call 21:09:41 I prefer IRC 21:09:57 sarob_: +1 21:10:06 sarob_ +1 21:10:13 sarob_, +1 21:10:14 Not so good for brainstorming and architecting 21:10:19 As I mentioned in my reply (http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/product-wg/2015-November/000870.html) 21:10:32 rockyg: +1 21:10:45 My vote would be to use IRC for weekly meetings but still give the sub-teams an option to use call+etherpads+whatever 21:10:59 * hughhalf nods in agreement with shamail 21:11:31 * kencjohnston nods as well 21:11:38 Rockyg is concerned about loosing some brainstorming benefit 21:11:38 This will allow us to use the best medium for decision making but also standardize with the preferred method for the community 21:11:50 Maybe (2) IRC + call for start, and get team familiar with IRC first for the first few meeting? 21:12:24 something people has no access to internet while "on-the-road" (that's what happened in the past in this group) 21:12:57 I've seen the latter happen more often (sgordon and geoffarnold) used to be in IRC but not on phone. 21:13:00 tbh when i am on the road i am actually more likely to have internet 21:13:12 but not necessarily internet i can voip on 21:13:16 I'm on the road too and IRC is easier at the moment 21:13:23 Rockyg thinks IRC as standard and conference calls for adhoc discussions 21:13:31 sgordon agreed 21:13:33 sarob_ and rockyg: +1 21:14:12 Kudos - good point, Sean! 21:14:18 I think flexibility is good because sometimes calls work much more efficiently (e.g. parking lot items, sub-team working groups) 21:14:24 so, IRC for daily/weekly tasks and discussions -- while planning for midcycles, board and/or summit presentatons, schedule extra voice meetings 21:14:39 i'm fine on IRC actually.. cuz in the past i do see people are "driving" while participating in cal 21:14:42 rockyg: yes, plus roadmap and user story discussions 21:15:09 shamail: exactly 21:15:16 fair point leong 21:15:36 sarob_: want to call a vote? 21:16:02 some of us have to just get used to searching for conversations in IRC 21:16:24 Almost there 21:16:46 KrishR: happy to help with that...generally when use it properly, the meeting logs for IRC do a good job of summarizing items (http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/product_working_group/2015/product_working_group.2015-08-24-19.02.html) 21:16:58 thanks sarob_! 21:18:17 * hughhalf apologises in advance - has another call at half past the hour he'll need to at least drop off voice for. 21:18:35 thanks hughhalf 21:18:36 +1 to the trainings, that would really be helpful! 21:18:56 +1 to training 21:19:16 I'm offering to training new members 21:19:30 great idea sarob_ 21:19:42 sarob_ Count me in as well, happy to help people onboard 21:19:45 I think it would even be a good page for our wiki in general 21:19:55 I'll be glad to help as well 21:20:12 * hughhalf nods 21:21:26 sarob_, can i get you to textualize the options we are voting on here 21:21:32 since it sounds like we're up to 3? 21:21:51 sgordon: +1 21:21:59 sgordon +1 21:22:13 Okay 21:22:26 Being a first time IRC only, it is definitely hard to follow the phone conversation without constant scribing. 21:22:35 Sorry speaking and writing not strong point 21:22:38 shamail I feel your pain :) 21:22:47 sarob_ It's an impossible tasks, no worries 21:22:48 haha kencjohnston, ditto! 21:22:50 Here's what to vote on 21:23:10 Vote for today 21:23:35 To hold the weekly 21:23:53 you found us, Arkady_Kanevsky 21:23:53 Meetings for the project team on IRC only 21:24:06 No conference call or etherpad 21:24:09 hello team 21:24:19 hi @Arkady_Kanevsky! 21:24:20 As part of the regular 21:24:22 hi Arkady_Kanevsky 21:24:27 Meetings 21:24:36 Doesn't hold back adhoc 21:24:40 while we wait; where do we record projects roadmap? 21:24:57 What is the advantage of IRC only? 21:24:59 #link openstack.org/roadmap 21:25:03 I want to add roadmap for tempest and rally 21:25:05 its at that link Arkady_Kanevsky 21:25:23 Ooh! god question! I see lots of mail. It would be great if I could just copy it over to a Prod wg when I see it. 21:25:29 oh, I will follow-up with you on that topic via email Arkady_Kanevsky... We haven't reached a new cycle yet to add projects 21:25:33 #startvote hold weekly scheduled product team meetings on IRC only 21:25:35 Unable to parse vote topic and options. 21:25:55 I think you need options sarob_ ? 21:26:12 sarob_ #startvote hold weekly scheduled product team meetings on IRC only yes no 21:26:14 thanks shamail, what about project WG keep roadmap for future releases? 21:26:19 #vote yes 21:26:38 #vote yes 21:26:54 #vote yes 21:26:56 I'll add you to the google drive share Arkady_Kanevsky... the last slide deck is at the link I posted earlier 21:26:59 #vote yes 21:27:17 #vote yes 21:27:21 Do we have no votes on the phone? we need to account for them as well 21:27:30 #vote no 21:27:31 no votes as in a "vote for no" 21:27:34 lol 21:27:42 #vote no 21:27:42 #vote no 21:27:46 Suggest that we allow votes on IRC or email. 21:27:46 #vote yes 21:27:51 so, one issue here, is the voting didn't really start because of a bad command format 21:27:52 #vote no 21:28:01 he did it again 21:28:05 So, this will get redone. 21:28:09 Can't vote formly 21:28:20 Over email 21:28:29 ah, I thought your second one took effect? 21:28:38 I think over email is a good idea sa 21:28:41 #vote no - in favor to allow voting on email also 21:28:43 sarob_, I meant 21:28:50 yeah you want something like this #startvote Should we have our weekly meetings conducted via IRC only? Yes, No, Don't Care 21:28:55 there are people (e.g. Carol) that are on vacation atm 21:29:00 sarob_ #startvote hold weekly scheduled product team meetings on IRC only? yes, no, maybe 21:29:08 ok good practice voting everyone 21:29:09 :D 21:29:16 sgordon :) 21:29:17 sarob_, it is coming up with your prefix 21:29:22 "sarob_ #startvote" 21:29:29 #startvote has to be start of the line 21:29:30 Only the meeting chair may start a vote. 21:29:40 * sgordon slaps openstack around with a trout 21:29:43 sarob_ #startvote hold weekly scheduled product team meetings on IRC only? Yes, No, Maybe 21:30:02 not too much sgordon!! it's supposed to be only "a bit" of slapping 21:30:07 sarob_ sarob_ #startvote Hold weekly scheduled product team meetings on IRC only? Yes, No, Maybe 21:30:16 * hughhalf assures everyone that IRC is easier, really :) 21:30:16 #startvote --help 21:30:16 Only the meeting chair may start a vote. 21:30:35 His syntax looks good... just the prefix 21:31:06 Need to step away for a minute, excuse me please. 21:31:07 Moving on 21:31:13 wait 21:31:20 Hey team, I've got to leave, I did have one agenda item to discuss. IF we decide to host the Mid-cycle with the Operators Meetup in the UK, Rackspace will host the mid-cycle at our London Office (2 hour train ride from Manchester, by Heathrow). Bonus, the office includes a replica of #10 Downing Street, a slide and a building of James Bond themed things. 21:31:22 so are we delaying sarob_ ? voting over email? 21:31:23 I will push the vote to the ML 21:31:26 what was the result? 21:31:27 okay 21:31:29 Yes 21:31:32 Isn't working 21:31:36 can you please assign yourself an #action so its in the log 21:31:55 #topic midcycle planning 21:32:18 #action sarob_ to send out a poll for meeting preference to ML 21:32:39 Thanks kencjohnston! We'll keep that as an option. 21:32:45 #action sarob post vote for the meeting IRC to the ML 21:32:52 Thanks to Rackspace for volunteering as well 21:33:03 sorry, i have to leave too 21:33:06 ops still debating whether to have a single midcycle (this time Europe), or regional ones. Once Ops decides on path, Prod WG can settle date and location of Midcycle 21:33:08 Take care KrishR 21:33:22 Anyone else? 21:33:34 agreed rockyg, I think the ops team is leaning towards a single but no confirmation yet 21:33:41 I think we need onin NA. 21:33:45 I can follow-up with Tom to get closure 21:34:17 Arkady_Kanevsky: we might still have one... the discussion is around whether there will only be one "official" while others are regional (e.g. NA could still have another one) 21:34:27 #action Shamail will follow up on ops timing with tom 21:34:35 thanks sarob_ 21:34:40 right 21:34:45 back 21:34:49 wb 21:35:12 I'm still good with two events 21:35:21 Moving on? 21:35:23 two is manageable 21:35:27 sarob_: +1 21:36:20 +1 to 2 events 21:37:19 #action sarob propose Jan f2f place and time 21:37:24 #info Ops mid-cycle February 15 & 16, Manchester, UK 21:37:27 Moving on 21:37:29 #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Operations/Meetups 21:37:44 #topic user story updates 21:37:56 #chair Shamail 21:37:57 Current chairs: Shamail sarob_ 21:38:19 sarob_: did we decide to have f2f seperate from ops-meetup? 21:38:24 Leong Kenny? 21:38:27 The Rolling Upgrade team met last week 21:38:27 https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PWG-Rolling-Upgrades-2015-11-17 21:38:30 (sorry for asking this after topic change) 21:38:46 Reviewing the current user story from the sub-team 21:38:48 Shamail nope, just idea of additional one 21:38:57 thx sarob_ :) 21:39:08 will collecting related blueprint to the Upgrade user story 21:39:33 Also looking at resources from Rax/Intel OSIC to support the development of the user story (e.g. blueprint) 21:39:33 Any feedback? 21:39:41 Questions? 21:39:50 Hi leong 21:39:57 next meeting is tomorrow 21:39:58 :-) 21:40:06 Have we identified technical SMEs for this user story already? 21:40:23 rolling upgrade requires DB hygeine user story 21:40:34 You mentioned collecting blueprints but are we going to create cross-project specs too? 21:40:45 shamail: not yet 21:41:08 yes. i think we also need cross-project specs 21:41:11 need to work on that 21:41:17 leong: +1 21:41:20 thanks! 21:41:33 DB hygiene.. yes.. I noted that. 21:42:14 Is there any db cleanup work out there yet? 21:42:16 there is a separate db_hygience user story in draft folder 21:42:18 configuration changes from one release to another also have to be overlaid onto the existing site configs 21:42:54 If work is ongoing make sure it is referenced 21:43:05 sarob_: +1 21:43:14 Get the contributors to comment on the user story 21:43:52 https://github.com/openstack/openstack-user-stories/blob/master/user-stories/proposed/rollingupgrades.rst 21:43:59 Arkady_Kanevsky: Please make changes to https://review.openstack.org/#/c/237178/ so that we can review it again 21:44:20 Continue with the next meeting 21:44:24 db_hygiene is not merged yet 21:44:27 Next topic 21:44:42 Your meeting tomorrow right? 21:45:12 need to ping ops ML on what is missing from upgrade process/code that they need besides DB migrations. 21:45:17 sarob_: u mean Upgrade? yes we meeting tomorrw 21:45:28 Jay and Derek update on onboarding hosts and VMs 21:45:34 #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ProductTeam/User_Stories/Rolling_Upgrades 21:45:43 for meeting details 21:45:52 Thx 21:46:02 Jay and Deric on the phone? Neither are in IRC atm 21:46:07 i can go 21:46:16 complex instance placement >.> 21:46:17 Sure 21:46:17 thx sgordon 21:46:21 #link http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/openstack-user-stories/user-stories/draft/complex_instance_placement.html 21:46:37 so ah, basically this is a use case we had defined in the context of the telco working group 21:47:00 it is primarily focused on more complex affinity/anti-affinity placement concepts 21:47:16 do we need to form a sub-team to work on the Telco user story? 21:47:22 it's been merged into the repo, need to determine next steps to move 21:47:41 theoretically we are thinking the remaining telco wg folk will help work on it 21:47:43 sgordon: Could this be merged with "onboarding pets" user story? 21:47:50 as we are winding down the separate working group 21:47:53 mmm not really 21:48:05 in the context calum proposed it i believe it is actually a built for cloud app 21:48:11 The second user story (traditional db server shards) was the reason I asked 21:48:14 with many instances involved 21:48:16 ah right 21:48:17 got it 21:48:23 yes that was added as part of transition 21:48:34 in that i certainly think it is a requirement seen in some pets too 21:48:44 the "onboarding" user story has two tracks.. one is led by Jay/Derric(IBM/HP) on "resources". The other one will be led by Gerg on "app" 21:48:48 so in that context maybe 21:48:55 gotcha 21:49:36 i need to go back and remind myself of the process to go from draft->proposed 21:49:43 to define next steps 21:50:31 #action sgordon define complex instance placement next steps 21:50:35 sgordon: please review https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ProductTeam/User_Stories and I (or others) can help with any resulting questions 21:50:38 do we have a user story submitted for review for it? 21:50:41 ack 21:50:53 it is actually merged as draft 21:50:58 i posted the link in the backlog ^ 21:51:16 http://specs.openstack.org/openstack/openstack-user-stories/user-stories/draft/complex_instance_placement.html 21:51:29 Shamail can I move your mitaka ops feedback to the ML 21:51:33 I see it on the webpage but not in submitted stories. 21:51:36 shamail: looking at the complex_instance_place at my first quick glance,think that might be different from "onboarding pets" 21:51:48 The main thing I am debating is whether complex instance placement a user story belonging to another parent or whether we create a new parent (e.g. Affinity) and add this as one user story under it 21:51:54 So Rockyg can talk stable with the remaining time 21:52:02 While your case is for compute, it could also apply to storage resources 21:52:16 sarob_: np, happy to move that to ML 21:52:54 #topic stable release team discussion 21:53:10 shamail, it can probably fit under another i suspect 21:53:25 leong: I agree, the second user story in complex instance is what made me think onboarding pets but I think it isn't any more 21:53:29 enterprise usually upgrade once a year. Our current upgrade plan only wokrs from one release to next (whne it works) 21:53:29 shamail, there was already another nova backlog spec that is not super unrelate either 21:53:46 thanks sgordon, look forward to hearing your thoughts on how to proceed after reviewing the workflow 21:53:48 Rockyg 75% users on 1 year plus releases 21:53:50 next topic :) 21:53:51 having a second read/thoughts... could be part of the use case scenario in "onboarding legacy app" 21:53:54 Arkady +1 21:54:14 :) 21:54:19 rockyg: I am working with my organization to see if we can get some interest in helping with stable branches too 21:54:32 Distributions are supporting post supported stable release 21:54:45 S all separately 21:54:52 does the upstream openstack responsible for support for multiple years and upgrading them or is that job better handled by distros? 21:54:55 sarob_: they are supporting but the challenge for consumers is two-fold: 21:54:58 Bad for collaboration and community 21:55:08 But the fixes all go upstream 21:55:09 a point of clarification here, i believe distributors are typically operating a fork albeit with a minimal delta from day 0 21:55:12 not from stable eol 21:55:12 1) each distro has their own policy of when EOL will occur so can't make same assumptions cross-vendor 21:55:27 the reason for this is that not all changes the distro may want to consume are eligible for upstream stable 21:55:29 and 2) for DIY consumers, we are forcing an upgrade almost every year 21:55:32 which has very specific rules 21:55:37 Shamail agreed 21:55:39 I'd rather have them upgrade when the window is right 21:55:45 Sgordon agreed 21:55:48 some vendor distro provides support upto 3-5 years 21:55:56 i dont state that as a reason not to extend stable 21:55:57 sgordon: agreed 21:56:07 But we want community to share the load 21:56:16 but simply to state that it should not be a goal to get the distributors having a 100% equal tree 21:56:17 Includes the distributions 21:56:25 that would be a nice side effect 21:56:30 but shouldnt be the goal 21:56:32 Sgordon not my interest 21:56:41 Right 21:56:56 and we want to let OpenStack consumers know that regardless of vendors (or even going your own way)... you will have some time to plan for upgrades. 21:57:03 Think security bug two years post release 21:57:20 N-2 being supported by community would cover 70%+ of OpenStack clouds 21:57:24 Many other reasons 21:57:27 (based on usersurvey) 21:58:30 there are two aspects here, the stable team (project now i guess) and also the stable branch cores for each project 21:58:33 Product team is ideally placed to understand and support stable releAse bugs with some developer time 21:58:37 So sarob_ and rockyg, what is the request/discussion with regards to this topic for the product WG? 21:58:41 We are being asked for 2 year support = n+3 21:58:55 i think immediately, resource commitments 21:59:12 pchadwick, agreed... I have seen that too but that might be too much load for community + infra 21:59:15 resource commitments leading to resolving the issues thierry and others cited with this process in the past 21:59:22 which would then allow extension of the eol in future 21:59:23 The question is 1 year public stable isn't enuf 21:59:27 sgordon: +1 21:59:33 What is enuf, not sure 21:59:40 We don't have a problem with committing resource to support 21:59:46 resources here means developers but also possibly infra 22:00:29 How much infra per supported release? 22:00:32 I have already started discussions inside my company... will be able to relay results by next month 22:00:53 Cool 22:00:57 pchadwick: good question... I think some of that may also have to do with velocity of changes coming in 22:01:08 Defcore supports three releases now 22:01:10 My guess is that the velocity is not high 22:01:10 if this is a decision from the team to support longer release.. i could try to ask if OSIC could help on dev resources 22:01:23 pchadwick, I would agree too 22:01:26 pchadwick, well that is another question tho 22:01:33 pchadwick, some people would like to see more velocity 22:01:42 pchadwick, more active backporting of stuff from master 22:01:44 leong: it might be good to bring it up with OSIC 22:01:51 Yes - backporting is an issue. 22:02:12 #action Sarob and team follow up release team on ML 22:02:15 thanks! 22:02:15 #endmeeting