21:00:33 #startmeeting Product Working Group 21:00:35 Meeting started Mon Mar 21 21:00:33 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is carolbarrett. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 21:00:37 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 21:00:39 The meeting name has been set to 'product_working_group' 21:01:11 hi everyone/ 21:01:12 Hi - Who's hear for the product working group meeting? 21:01:16 hi Shamail 21:01:22 * shamail waves 21:01:26 Hi 21:01:26 Hi carolbarrett & shamail 21:01:28 \o 21:01:32 \o 21:01:33 hi MarkBaker 21:01:40 Hello all 21:01:41 o/ 21:01:55 Hi pchadwick 21:01:57 Here! 21:01:59 o/ 21:02:07 o/ 21:02:10 hello 21:02:14 great to see everyone! 21:02:16 Hi 21:02:24 o/ = left-handed hand raise. 21:02:31 LOL 21:02:44 Let's get going! 21:02:54 #link: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/product-team#March_21.2C_2016_Product_Team_Meeting_Agenda 21:02:58 here's our agenda 21:03:01 I never knew what the symbol meant - thanks for the explanation! 21:03:03 Let's start with AR follow-up 21:03:04 o/ 21:03:10 #topic Action Item Review 21:03:20 #link: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/product_working_group/2016/product_working_group.2016-03-14-21.00.txt 21:03:31 let's start with last week's meeting 21:04:14 Leong is out this week, spring break here in Oregon. Not sure where we are on starting the alternating meetings. Does anyone have an update to share? 21:04:52 I have not seen any updates on that topic (ML or otherwise), the poll was concluded… I think he was seeking someone to lead that meeting but none confirmed so far 21:05:20 I'll give him an action item to provide an update next week. 21:05:21 #action Leong Update the team on alternating meeting plan 21:06:08 Next one looks like it's Shamail's - Cross Project Liasons 21:06:37 Please defer this one another week, sorry. I focused on the tracker, roadmap this past week, 21:06:49 Gotcha 21:07:02 #action Shamail Add info on Cross-Project Team liaison roles and requirements and send email too 21:07:09 It’s an easy one to do, that’s why it keeps slipping. :) I’ll put it on my calendar this week. 21:07:26 Understand, think you're priorities are the right ones 21:07:34 That brings us to the Tracker repo - Shamial 21:07:39 Shamail (sorry) 21:07:45 np! 21:07:52 determine where the repo will be for the tracker tool upstream 21:08:03 We had the kick-off meeting for the tracker/dashboard project and we have identified the location (for now) 21:08:29 we will build and deploy the first prototype using the OpenStack github repo that hosts the OpenStack Project Navigator 21:09:01 We might want to have a longer term discussion after the initial prototype (if there is interest in the community) but for now it will be hosted in the same place as most of openstack.org content 21:09:10 which means outside of OpenStack governance 21:09:34 That is all for now. Any questions/comments? 21:09:34 Good starting point for now, I think 21:09:38 Agreed 21:10:00 Thanks 21:10:00 +1 consistency is good. 21:10:07 Next one is mine - review User Stories for +2/+1 needs 21:10:16 for the record, Jimmy (OpenStack Foundation) has been awesome… as have Victor and Marcela (Intel) 21:10:48 I did this, but need to continue to do this regularly - lots of action in the repo these days. 21:11:11 The next one is also mine - add user story prioritization to the next team meeting and add a voice line for the discussion 21:11:24 #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/openstack-user-stories 21:11:35 This link is very handy as it shows the current open items… 21:12:12 Thanks 21:12:25 I didn't do this, because it was dependent on the next action item which Arkady owns 21:12:45 which one is that? 21:12:58 Send out doodle of user stories to prioritize after 3/21 team meeting discussion 21:13:08 I reviewed most oif user stories. 21:13:23 I got confused and thought we wanted to do the Doodle first, but remembered our discussion too late. 21:13:25 It is not doodle but google forms. 21:13:54 Need one more round of update before ready for prioritization. 21:13:55 So I'll take the AR to setup a voice line for the 3/28 meeting and the only agenda item will be user story walk through 21:14:08 carolbarrett: +1 21:14:14 arkday: google form is OK too. 21:14:48 Unfortunately survey monkey and google forms does not allow more than 10 answers. With more than 10 stories to prioritize we can not have full linear order. 21:14:52 #action carol setup voice line for 3/28 meeting with agenda of User Story walk through 21:15:11 So let's look at the Action items remaining from our midcycle. 21:15:20 #link: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/PWG-LON16-MidCycle_Summary 21:15:24 Instead I had give priorities 0-3. 3,2,1 are your 3 top choices. Rest are 0. 21:15:32 arkady_kanevsky - did you already send out the Google link? 21:15:46 not yet. Need to add 2 more stories 21:15:55 Arkady_Kanevsky: please send out to PWG via mailing list 21:15:59 expect it later today 21:16:03 along w/ instructions 21:16:03 Thanks. 21:16:08 yes. 21:17:14 I still have a few of my ARs to close out - but nothing that is time sensitive. 21:17:34 * shamail looking at etherpad 21:17:50 mine are completed 21:17:50 Shamail: Are we ready to "tracked"? 21:18:03 yes 21:18:06 I can submit that patch today 21:18:09 that folder is now empty 21:18:16 draft should be empty soon too 21:18:37 Let's get rid of them as soon as they are empty. 21:18:38 Thanks 21:18:42 carolbarrett: +1 21:18:55 Next up is Mike Perez - Are you here? 21:19:05 I dont see thingee 21:19:35 I'll look for him on Slack 21:19:44 thanks HeidiJoy 21:20:03 OK - I've sent him a couple of emails looking for updates, I'm sure he's swamped with the Summit prep. 21:20:12 Will reach out again 21:20:19 Piet - Are you here? 21:20:21 He's online but might be busy, so I pinged him and he might join. 21:20:32 HeidiJoy - Thanks 21:20:47 NP 21:20:50 Don't see Piet either 21:21:01 That closes out the AR follow-up. 21:21:10 I've been in touch with him today - drop him an email, I suggest. 21:21:17 (Piet) ^^ 21:21:19 Will do 21:21:41 #topic Rolling Upgrades User Story update - Post Cross-Project Team meeting 21:21:45 Quickie for my ARs. Following through with roadmap. Almost have Catherine and Refstack. Also, now on rally IRC 21:22:15 Rockyg: Thanks! 21:22:20 thanks rockyg 21:22:24 Kencjohnston - can you take this next topic? 21:22:39 Sure 21:22:41 kencjohnston: I’m glad you could make it (with the time adjustment) 21:22:42 Follow up - @thingee has a conflicting meeting now. Feel free to send him an email. Also I'm dropping this meeting for another. TTYL. 21:22:51 bye HeidiJoy 21:22:54 There was a cross project team meeting last Tuesday evening 21:23:04 where we discussed the Rolling Upgrades Cross Project Spec 21:23:09 * kencjohnston finds review link 21:23:32 #link Cross Project Spec - Rolling Upgrades Review https://review.openstack.org/#/c/290977/ 21:23:47 The discussion devolved into one about what the definition and purpose of a cross project spec was 21:24:02 which slightly puts into question our proposed workflow which utilizes the Cross Proejct Spec repo 21:24:06 yeah. Not very pretty, I'm afraid. 21:24:14 rockyg: +1 21:24:26 The discussion ended with an action item to furthe rdefine Cross Project Specs in the Project Team Guide 21:24:29 * kencjohnston again looks for link 21:24:37 thingee is attempting to enlighten the devs on this issue. 21:24:39 kencjohnston: Will this discussion continue tomorrow? 21:25:03 #link Cross Project Spec Definition in Project Team Guide http://docs.openstack.org/project-team-guide/cross-project.html#cross-project-specifications 21:25:11 shamail form what I can tell it is not on the agenda 21:25:14 The xproj spec alteration is supposed to be ready for discussion 21:25:15 s/form/from 21:25:25 kencjohnston: should we propose it or let it naturally happen? 21:25:28 rockyg I haven't seen it, can you send me the review/link? 21:25:40 shamail I was waiting for the alteration... 21:25:42 * rockyg looking 21:25:53 kencjohnston: +1 21:25:57 if it is available I'll send a note to thingee to have it added to the agenda 21:26:10 I like the way it reads now... 21:26:14 I was hoping to comment on any review of the alteration 21:26:15 I have a draft of user story prioritirization questionare ready - https://docs.google.com/forms/d/19zxTup3GrYWEmdus_jLUIpDigN3ubCyP6PsgKM9S1DE/viewform 21:26:33 Will give people time to comment before sending for votes 21:26:37 carolbarrett Has it changed since last week? 21:26:45 o/ 21:26:50 ohai thingee 21:26:55 hey everyone had another meeting to attend 21:27:00 no worries 21:27:05 thanks for joining 21:27:14 We were discussing the status of the xproject spec definition change in the Project Team Guide 21:27:15 hi thingee 21:27:18 your timing is perfect 21:27:37 yeah, we'll need to discuss it in tomorrow's cross-project meeting. 21:27:40 kencjohnston, not there yet. Doug Hellmann is doing it and he's been kinda busy with release last and this week 21:27:56 rockyg ok understood. 21:28:38 Another AR I have as a result is to adjust the User Story to be scoped exclusively to what work is already underway/completed in projects claiming "Rolling Ugprades" 21:29:08 Our original definition is more expansive than what is contained withing hte "supports-rolling-upgrades" meta-data tag 21:29:33 Where is that defined? 21:29:36 kencjohnson: was there discussion about changing the tag? 21:29:46 carolbarrett there was not 21:29:56 Arkady_Kanevsky let me find the link 21:30:00 some stng discussion on "no rollbacks" 21:30:06 kencjohnston and thingee: we can start from what 21:30:08 s/stng/strong 21:30:09 thanjs., 21:30:21 What is the delta between user story and tag def? 21:30:21 thingee: is the working on the cross-spec page for the purpose of a Cross-Project spec , new proposed wording? 21:30:24 what’s there and then add other things later right? 21:30:33 #link Rolling Upgrades Tag Definition https://governance.openstack.org/reference/tags/assert_supports-rolling-upgrade.html 21:30:49 I mean reduce it to align with WIP and then add more things later 21:31:19 shamail yes that is my understanding 21:31:26 glad to hear that 21:32:02 +1 on the plan. We still need to define delta and track it for roadmap 21:32:14 Arkady_Kanevsky +1 21:32:44 Thingee: What is your goal for the discussion in the meeting tomorrow? 21:33:02 should we review tags going forward? 21:33:41 I htink thingee left for another meeting 21:33:50 OK 21:34:15 I think those of us that can make the meeting tomorrow, should. 21:34:18 Who can attend the cross-project meeting tomorrow to help with the discussion? 21:34:22 jinx 21:34:22 carolbarrett: to discuss how we want to handle these sort of documents that people don't consider a specification. 21:34:24 shamail: +1 21:34:34 o/ 21:34:35 I’ll try to be there. 21:34:54 I'll be there. 21:34:57 thingee: are you bringing a proposal to the discussion? 21:35:12 I think the rolling upgrade came across to some people as a wish list. Also the people that weren't happy with this were the people that would ideally help fill out the technical details. 21:35:13 But in this group, we need to do a postmordem to modify how we do this going forward. 21:35:35 rockyg +1 21:35:36 rockyg +1 21:35:37 thingee: this leads back to where does “gaps analysis” need to happen 21:35:38 +1 21:36:07 One thing would be to separate out the update part of the story so it is independent. It's not somethind dev is even thinking about at the moment. It happens at the packager from most of their perspectives. 21:36:28 so I think tomorrow I'm going to propose a change to the project team guide from the cross-project section on what our goals for the specifications should be. 21:36:31 I wonder at what point we take a discussion to the TC.... 21:36:50 If we could agree that cross-project specs can be used as a source for other cross-project specs then the rolling upgrades spec could be considered a concept/topic and the actual implementation guidelines (that would be cross project specs) could reference it. 21:36:56 carolbarrett: keep in mind people like sdague are on the TC 21:36:56 carolbarrett, not there yet ;-) 21:36:59 carolbarrett Isn't the xproject team largely the TC? 21:37:08 Let's let thingee do some magic first 21:37:13 rockyg: ++ 21:37:29 kencjohnston: I didn't think so. 21:37:36 reading reqs it is dependendent on Grenade testing. So they should be the one tagging... 21:37:40 TCs + PTLs + CSPLs 21:37:42 rockyg: +1 21:37:47 carolbarrett: who was not interested in the current format 21:38:13 I think it just came across wrong and needs to be cleared up 21:38:17 thingee: +1 21:38:20 thingee: not following your comment...? 21:38:33 That I understand 21:38:41 carolbarrett: the person who didn’t agre with the format was a person who is also a TC 21:38:44 agree* 21:38:54 carolbarrett: you said, when do we bring this up to the TC... people from the TC already started commenting on it not understanding why this was proposed to cross-project specs to begin with 21:38:57 carolbarrett, our new process. It took us half a day to work it out. And we plopped it down in devs' laps with nary a word 21:39:18 thingee, rockgy: Gotcha. 21:39:24 thingee, Is Grenade folks signed up for project PTL tag designation for rolling_upgrade? 21:39:40 OK - we'll have folks join the discussion tomorrow and see where it goes and regroup on next steps next week 21:39:52 Arkady_Kanevsky, sean dague is big in grenade 21:39:55 I agree with rockyg, let’s see how the discussion that thingee leads goes… I think he has been successful in relaying the change to individuals but it probably just needs to happen with the cross-project team as a whole 21:39:56 Anything else on this one before we move on? 21:40:08 shamail: +1 21:40:16 carolbarrett none from me 21:40:32 thingee ? 21:40:41 none 21:40:48 Next topic is Quota User Story 21:40:54 #topic Quota User Story 21:40:59 Shamail - can you take this one? 21:41:01 sure 21:41:34 carolbarrett, actually funny that's the next topic. That's what is under discussion in the cross project meeting channel right now 21:41:35 Nikhil K. recently sent out an email to the dev ML about a cross-project spec for quotas 21:41:49 I don’t have the link to the message handy 21:41:52 * nikhil lurks 21:41:55 but the cross project spec can be found here 21:42:00 hi nikhil :) 21:42:02 #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/284454/ 21:42:05 :) 21:42:10 shamail: here's the thread 21:42:13 #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-March/thread.html#89453 21:42:18 Thanks! 21:42:30 We have had capacity management as a high pri. user story for a while now 21:42:32 #link https://specs.openstack.org/openstack/openstack-user-stories/user-stories/draft/capacity_management.html 21:42:49 and this might be a good time to intersect the quota cross-project spec and the user story 21:43:10 shamail My view is that Capacity Management is much more expansive then centralized quota enforcement 21:43:17 Certainly would be. It's great to have nikhil here! 21:43:19 Or the story as written is 21:43:21 The cross-project quota team is deciding whether quotas should be a separate library or service in OpenStack so that we can have uniform features across the various services 21:43:25 should we have this user story in our prioritirization list? 21:43:26 kencjohnston: it certainly is! 21:43:44 And with that, gotta go. Sorry. I'll catch up later in the log 21:43:45 rockyg: :) 21:43:55 The initial gameplan is to start the new cross project spec for quotas at a basic level and tackle things like nested quota support first 21:43:55 thanks rockyg 21:44:05 shamail I think that is the right approach 21:44:13 it would be good to have a centralized quota usage story 21:44:26 so we could outline the benefits and pain points experienced today in one central place 21:44:30 but my thought was that we could also provide our user story so that those needs are captured and discussed before cross-project quota functionality continues to expand 21:44:38 but they way we have the story writtne now I'm not sure it's valuable to the effort at the moment. 21:44:41 bye rockyg 21:44:43 better to be ahead of the curve versus behind it (like we ended up with rolling upgrades) 21:45:00 shamail +1, but I think we need a new story to do that 21:45:11 +1 shamail 21:45:14 +1 on the story. 21:45:19 kencjohnston: I agree, it’s just data points for now… we need to modified version as a starting point 21:45:44 shamail Say more about that? Not sure I follow. 21:45:53 The topic I wanted to raise was trying to have an owner here so that we can progress this story 21:46:04 shamail ah, ok, agreed 21:46:32 kencjohnston: I propose we have a new (minimal) user story that aligns with the current needs… assign an owner… and then ensure that we also share the advanced items from the original story as the opportunity surfaces 21:46:50 shamail: +1 21:46:55 agree 21:46:57 shamail +1, although I'm keeping my hand down :) 21:47:04 awww lol 21:47:17 Any volunteers? 21:47:25 I would be up for taking it if no one else is. 21:47:49 * shamail looks around the room 21:48:01 every alreasy stepped back 21:48:05 I’ll volunteer as owner :) 21:48:24 Shamail - I can team up with you, but don't think I have the details to own it 21:48:38 I’ll work with nikhil and the cross project team to align user story with current status and keep our team updated 21:48:42 carolbarrett Piet got some good feedback from Operators on this subject at the Ops MidCycle 21:48:44 ++ 21:48:46 I will review. I need to create another user story for refcore reporting improvement. One story at a timne for me. 21:48:54 thanks carolbarrett! 21:49:08 thanks Shamail 21:49:11 The other major ask for this topic is… 21:49:26 #action Shamail, Carol Create new Quota Management User Story 21:49:27 The cross-project quota team is already investigating plans for Newton (and maybe Ocata) 21:49:55 If any companies have an interest in this topic then let’s let our development teams know so that we can help out where/when possible 21:49:57 shamail: Let's set time this week to work on this. 21:50:04 carolbarrett: +1 21:50:19 That is all for now 21:50:27 Thanks shamail 21:50:49 carolbarrett: I propose we defer the roadmap topic and use the remaining time for OSIC 21:50:57 The next topic is an OSIC roadmap Goals and Prioroties 21:51:06 Kencjohnston - we've only got 10 mins, do you want to do this now? 21:51:11 Thanks carolbarrett 21:51:14 sure I'll get as far as I can 21:51:24 OK 21:51:34 #topic OSIC Roadmap Goals and Priorities - 21:51:37 So, for those unfamiliar OSIC (OpenStack Innovation Center) is a joint effort between Intel and Rackspace 21:51:51 Think of it as two 1000 node clusters available for the community to use for testing 21:52:09 #link Cluster Signup http://www.osic.org/ 21:52:31 AND I'd argue more importantly, because it is my job, 100+ and growing developers working directly upstream 21:52:41 with no agenda other than to improve enterprise adoption of OpenStack 21:52:43 what about physical network? Is storage SDS on nodes onoy? 21:53:00 Arkady_Kanevsky I'm happy to get you to specifics about the cluster, ping me offline 21:53:10 So those developers are working against a roadmap 21:53:13 sure. 21:53:24 we have a certain set of items/work that we consider a priority, which are really OSIC driven 21:53:45 but the majority of our time upstream is spent on community priorities that follow our mission, driving enterprise adoption 21:53:57 and themes: simplicity, upgradeability, reliability and scalability 21:54:03 all pretty motherhood and apple pie :) 21:54:22 Those OSIC driven priorities, some of which are internal baselining and CI setup are documented here: 21:54:28 always a favorite! 21:54:31 ++ (many ignored today) 21:54:44 #link OSIC Driven Priorities - https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/OSIC-Roadmap-Measurable-Goals 21:55:15 We'll be constantly reviewing community priorities and producing our first revision of what we plan to work on which includes community priorities and osic driven ones by the end of hte month 21:55:25 yes. Enterprise requires many things. One of them is resiliency and improved pet handling. There are physical environment dependent... 21:55:35 We're hoping to conform to the projects internal prioritization process where they have them 21:55:46 kencjohnston: What are the “OSIC projects”? 21:55:50 So I'd love feedback on the etherpad and our major goals 21:55:54 shamail there is a list at the bottom 21:55:56 of the etherpad 21:55:56 Thanks 21:56:11 good list 21:56:23 and be on the lookout for a published roadmap, agian which will have room to flex as priorities are defined and outlined at the Austin Design Summit 21:56:42 KrishR and I are your point people, feel free to reach out to either of us at anytiem 21:56:47 is there a session at Austin summit on it? 21:57:01 kencjohnston: Are OSIC roadmap items only able to come from developers using the resources and OSIC itself. Is there a set % of resources allocated to community (e.g. PWG user stories)? 21:57:04 Arkady_Kanevsky sadly the roadmap review session was not approved, so no 21:57:15 what about BOF? 21:57:43 shamail OSIC roadmap items will likely include many items not originally derived by OSIC itself. 21:57:58 kencjohnston: I guess the broader question I am getting at is how are items selected beyond topics raised by OSIC or the companies involved? 21:58:04 kencjohnston: +1 21:58:05 shamail: as kencjohnston explained, a lot of OSIC resources are kept for comunity priorities; so PWG-driven ones can be accommodated 21:58:20 KrishR +1 21:58:31 kencjohnston: Thanks, that’s what I was asking and what do we need to provide from PWG to formally raise a topic for roadmap discussion 21:58:33 So PWG priorities are reviewed prior to roadmap finalization 21:58:41 that is how Rolling Upgrades got on as a theme 21:58:46 what is OSA? 21:58:51 OpenStack Ansible 21:58:52 Arkady_Kanevsky OpenStack Ansible 21:58:58 thanks 21:59:09 So we are about out of time 21:59:19 but again follow up and thanks Carol for letting me have a few minutes to discuss. 21:59:26 So as we go through our next round of prioritization, we will provide input to the OSIC roadmap planning 21:59:36 kencjohston and krish: Thanks 21:59:39 One last thing, as you can see in the ehterpad our initiatives will be creating User Stories. There are two I created last week. 21:59:50 carolbarrett thanks 21:59:52 Thanks kencjohnston and KrishR… Can you please raise notice in the PWG when the next cycle of roadmap reviews is about to happen so that we can discuss user stories concepts as a team for additional data points into your efforts? 21:59:58 thanks team 22:00:03 OK folks we're out of time for today; Pls find time to look over the User Stories ahead of next week's meeting 22:00:08 Have a good week 22:00:08 shamail: we'll do that 22:00:12 bye 22:00:16 bye 22:00:16 bye 22:00:17 bye all, thanks 22:00:19 #endmeeting