06:03:12 <kei> #startmeeting product_working_group
06:03:13 <openstack> Meeting started Tue Jan 24 06:03:12 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is kei. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
06:03:14 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
06:03:16 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'product_working_group'
06:03:35 <kei> Hi.
06:05:10 <kei> You can find the agenda for today here:
06:05:18 <kei> #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/product-team
06:05:39 <hieulq> o/
06:05:59 <hieulq> hi kei
06:06:05 <kei> Although the first topic is Midcycle Planning.  Leong is not here yet.  So let's talk about logging things.
06:06:11 <kei> hi hieulq
06:07:13 <kei> hieulq: i was out of office almost entire last two weeks and i'm back.  i'd like to finalize the logging user story.
06:07:36 <hieulq> sure
06:07:41 <tovin07> o/
06:07:51 <hieulq> kei, what is the current status of logging user story now?
06:11:09 <kei> hieulq: i'm still reviewing.  my general impression of the draft version is good.
06:11:43 <kei> hieulq: we need to use the new template with persona information.
06:11:47 <hieulq> kei, thanks :)
06:11:59 <kei> i mean
06:12:19 <hieulq> kei, yeah, I have used persona information in the draft version, but maybe not enough
06:12:33 <kei> i mean the draft does have "As Rey the Cloud Operator" part.  we also need a link to persona description page.
06:13:17 <hieulq> +1
06:13:46 <kei> hieulq: i got the same comment on the bare metal user story :)
06:13:58 <kei> #link https://review.openstack.org/411140
06:14:11 <kei> i forgot to set topic...
06:14:16 <kei> #topic user stories
06:16:14 <kei> hieulq: do we need to describe the real implementation examples in "Opportunity/Justification"?
06:16:29 <kei> such as Heka and OSProfiler.
06:17:32 <hieulq> kei, +1 for OSProfiler
06:17:54 <hieulq> but Heka is now concerned as deprecated in some projects like Kolla
06:18:38 <hieulq> OpenStack performance team also considered replacing Heka with Fluentd
06:22:13 <kei> hieulq: thanks for the information.  i just thought both kolla and heka is about implementatition.  user story basically shouldn't concern implementation (how to implement) in the section?
06:23:39 <hieulq> kei, ack
06:24:50 <kei> hieulq: let's go back to "Problem Definition" section.
06:26:34 <kei> hieulq: one of the problems i believe is lack of information for troubleshooting (for investigating the root cause quickly when we hit it for the first time.)
06:28:58 <kei> the other is information of each service is stored in distributed manner and that make it hard for us to investigate the problem.  we need to gather lots of information from multiple servers and compare them.  however it's (usually?) impossible to know which service calls which service unless we enable DEBUG level.
06:29:55 <kei> if you enable DEBUG level, lots of logs will be output and it would eat up the storage and even end up with killing some processes.
06:31:16 <hieulq> kei, yeah, we should make it clearer in the spec
06:31:17 <leong> o/
06:31:23 <hieulq> hi leong
06:31:27 <leong> sorry for being late...
06:31:34 <kei> hieulq: i partially talked about implementation.  sorry...
06:31:55 <kei> leong: hi
06:32:29 <kei> hieulq: but i hope you got my point.
06:33:06 <kei> hieulq: i'll send you my comments via email again later.
06:33:36 <hieulq> kei, will try, thanks
06:33:39 * leong_ looking through irc history
06:34:03 <hieulq> my mindset still focus on implementation
06:34:28 <hieulq> so it maybe took time to finalize the general user story mindset
06:34:52 <kei> hieulq: let's do it together :)
06:35:05 <leong_> the key thing about user story is to document the requirements and perform gaps analysis
06:35:31 <kei> leong_: +1
06:35:36 <leong_> after gap analysis, we then work with developer to draft spec/blueprint (which is part of implementation)
06:36:23 <kei> hieulq: once we've done to revise it, let's submit it to the gerrit.
06:36:27 <leong_> PWG is aimed to provide a formal channel for company to submit new feature requests or enhancement
06:37:00 <hieulq> leong_, ack
06:37:23 <leong_> Piet (previously UX team) has drafted a user story related to logs and error code.
06:37:35 <leong_> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/409878/
06:37:50 <kei> leong_: thanks.  i'll take a look at it.
06:37:51 <leong_> #link User story related to Logging: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/409878/
06:38:29 <leong_> we can look at the 409878 and refine that user story
06:38:45 <leong_> LCOO also interested to improve logging
06:40:21 <leong_> the user story tracker is ready.. we need to work on a tracker for baremetal story
06:41:13 <leong_> there's also pending changes to the baremetal persona changes: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/411140/
06:41:36 <kei> leong_: it looks to me that it's specific to error events (code, message) that are output to log.  our requirement also include trace of events which shouldn't be output to log.  maybe our requirement beyond the scope of logging?
06:41:58 <leong_> u are right, kei
06:42:34 <leong_> it might worth to split into logging and another story about "traceability"
06:42:59 <kei> ok.  let's consider it and either revise our user story or put comments to Piet's user story. > hieulq
06:43:07 <kei> leong_: right.
06:43:51 <kei> leong_: yes, i'd like to discuss persona for bare metal user story.
06:43:57 <leong_> sure!
06:44:01 <leong_> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/411140 ?
06:44:37 <leong_> do you need my help to make changes to 411140
06:46:22 <kei> leong_: my standpoint is "As Wei - project owner" would be appropriate, as i mentioned in the gerrit, but what i'm not 100% sure is the definition of Wei yet.
06:46:45 <leong_> if the definition is not appropriate, we should propose new persona
06:47:05 <leong_> from my understanding, i think we need a new persona
06:47:58 <leong_> let's use "wei - project owner" first, then leave a comment indicating we need a new person to better reflex the role
06:48:01 <kei> leong_: i can't tell if the definition is appropriate or not yet.  and i'd like to understand the definition first.
06:48:22 <kei> but it's been a while since the last time i read the definition page.  i'll look at it quickly again.
06:48:53 <leong_> from what i see, there isn't a best Persona for the baremetal use case now. But the closet seems to be "wei - project owner", though not 100% appropriate.
06:49:39 <leong_> we need a persona that reflect "enterprise user or sys-admin-type" for using the baremetal machines
06:49:59 <leong_> right now the Persona doesn't cover any other "user" other than "App Developer"
06:50:14 <kei> leong_: i see.
06:50:51 <kei> leong_: what's the "project" in "Wei - project owner"?
06:51:19 <leong_> is quite ambiguity...
06:51:55 <leong_> is more refer to the OpenStack Project/Tenant
06:53:03 <kei> leong_: my understanding is "project" equals to "tenant" according to the previous discussion in the community.  there was a discussion that we should use project instead of tenant.
06:53:20 <leong_> yup, that's correct.
06:53:36 <kei> if "project" equals to "tenant", enterprise user could be one type of tenant.
06:54:00 <kei> so i thought Wei could be appropriate for enterprise user as well.
06:54:06 <leong_> yup. that's why i'm saying 'project owner' is the closest match, though might not be 100%
06:54:38 <leong_> it refer to "project owner", not the "project user"
06:55:06 <leong_> the project owner set the quota, manage access...
06:55:31 <leong_> but in the baremetal user story, it is the project user who uses the baremetal instances.
06:56:06 <leong_> we have 5 mins to the hour
06:58:03 <leong_> kei, can you patch the 411140 with "project owner" first, then we can continue to propose a better persona if needed.
06:58:26 <kei> leong_: i thought both "owner" and "user" could be called as "user" in this case.  maybe the former "user" can be devided into "smaller onwer" and "smaller user"?...
06:58:37 <leong_> yup
06:58:44 <kei> leong_: sure thing.
06:59:12 <leong_> can we quickly touch on the midcycle planning...
06:59:22 <kei> leong_: i'll post a new patch with new template with project owner, and start a discussion there.
06:59:29 <kei> leong_: sure.  go ahead.
06:59:37 <leong_> #link midcycle planning ether pad: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/MIL-pwg-meetup
06:59:59 <leong_> PWG is planning to colocate the midcycle meetup at Milan (with Ops Meetup)
07:00:06 <leong_> exact date is not finalized yet
07:00:25 <leong_> that's my update for midcycle
07:00:34 <leong_> more info can be found from the above lnk
07:00:42 <leong_> i have another Open item..
07:01:06 <kei> leong_: thanks!
07:01:16 <leong_> Carol (intel) is retiring, last day Feb 2. I will be taking over her role in PWG and co-lead with Shamail (IBM)
07:02:07 <kei> leong_: i didn't know that.  thanks for the information.
07:02:33 <kei> leong_: i'll talk to you in private chat.
07:02:41 <leong_> sure
07:02:54 <leong_> thanks others for joining...
07:03:02 <kei> i really have to close this meeting now.  thanks leong, hieulq, tovin07!
07:03:04 <kei> #endmeeting