15:00:01 #startmeeting puppet-openstack 15:00:03 Meeting started Tue Apr 21 15:00:01 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is EmilienM. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 15:00:04 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 15:00:06 The meeting name has been set to 'puppet_openstack' 15:00:08 morning all 15:00:12 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/puppet-openstack-weekly-meeting-20150421 15:00:13 o/ 15:00:16 hi 15:00:21 who is here today? 15:00:24 o/ 15:00:25 here 15:00:28 o/ 15:00:32 here 15:00:38 o/ 15:00:40 here 15:00:44 our agenda is *HUGE* - challenge accepted to make it 15:00:49 #topic Review past action items 15:00:52 hi 15:01:03 EmilienM to run a thread about Summit diner with Puppet OpenStack folks -> DONE 15:01:07 o/ 15:01:15 EmilienM to run discussion about Puppet OpenStack naming 15:01:28 #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2015-April/061472.html 15:01:38 we have an item later about naming 15:02:02 well... I'm not going to show all past actions that are done 15:02:10 we just want to know what is not done 15:02:20 gchamoul: any follow-up for puppet-neutron to follow https://review.openstack.org/106144 for LB driver ? 15:02:22 o/ 15:02:50 o/ 15:02:57 o/ 15:03:18 EmilienM: I am on PTOs this week, wanted just to be here for the meeting! and will take care of it next week 15:03:24 gchamoul: ack. 15:03:57 #topic policy on when/why we will break the current release on master 15:04:16 so we had a lot of discussion last week on IRC... 15:04:26 yes and on the ML 15:04:29 yes 15:04:45 so, spredzy and I are working on openstack-infra to provide a new feature 15:04:52 #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/175849/ 15:05:00 #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/175850) 15:05:13 the idea here is to perform the cherry-picks patches automatically 15:05:29 how would you keep stuff that breaks juno out? 15:05:42 mfisch: I think the idea is to key it off of a commit tag 15:05:42 we also had some inputs from crinkle about a new branch for staging. crinkle, wanna talk about it? 15:05:55 sure 15:06:30 mfisch: if it breaks juno, well... don't backport it. 15:06:33 my friend pointed out to me that in other projects master should generally "work", and to that end some sort of "future" or "next" development branch could be created for kilo specific breaking changes 15:06:46 thats the whole point of deprecations 15:07:00 I mean thats why they deprecated those config options instead of just removing them like we did 15:07:48 crinkle: the negative point of this is, we barely manage stable branches.... 15:07:59 yes, branch management would be a little harder 15:08:18 A good iteration for us would be to agree on a new policy of managing OS releases 15:08:48 and I think that should be a spec 15:09:08 master is targeted at the next release, anyone relying on master to provision the latest stable branch shouldn't expect backward compatibility with previous stable branches. The only stability provided in with our interfaces (class parameters) 15:09:45 mgagne: I do agree with you. The issue we have *now* is we aren't all agree 15:09:46 except that violates the whole point of deprecations in the other openstack projects 15:09:55 this isn't just a master issue, it's also an issue moving between stable branches 15:10:02 I'm not saying provide backwards compatibility in master, I'm just saying someone should be able to check out master and run it without building special packages first 15:10:06 EmilienM: I think it has always been the case (that master targeted the next release) 15:10:16 mgagne: it does. 15:10:27 some of the deprecation issues could also be addressed by enhancements to the config file providers 15:10:45 clayton: sure but it was never meant to be that way 15:11:01 clayton: it's not "our process is broken", it's "wouldn't it be great if" 15:11:47 mgagne: a blueprint (spec) would help here. 15:11:49 does any other openstack project intentionally break the current release on master? 15:12:02 mfisch: not AFIK but it could happen 15:12:15 no other openstack project depends this much on distro packages that have this kind of release cycle 15:12:37 mfisch: I'm not sure it's actually an issue for other projects per se. I think the puppet modules are kind of unusual compared to existing projects. I assume chef, ansible, etc would have similar issues 15:12:43 we have always been behind and always playing catch up. Now we are improving and making it earlier. I don't see why we should refrain ourselves from going forward with the latest release from master because someone expects to be able to install stable releases from master. It never was meant to be it. 15:12:57 the thing is, if we don't upgrade master with new configuration updates, operators will have WARNINGs in logs everywhere 15:13:04 the cost tradeoff for that deprecation fix is not good for us 15:13:21 if we wish to change it, lets think about it. But I don't see master as "broken" if it can't install Juno. 15:13:27 it wasn't like that feature was required to make this work for Kilo 15:13:39 you traded a warning message on service startup for breaking Juno 15:13:42 well, the problem right now is that master could easily be in a state where no one can install it other than vendors 15:13:45 mfisch: we are moving forward. Removing deprecation is part of the work to make it to kilo 15:14:11 which is fine if you don't want anyone but vendors to do the work 15:14:12 so delay it 2 months and nobody would have a problem with it 15:14:26 clayton: that's not the goal. 15:14:55 we are trying very hard to release it at the same time as the next release, not 2-3 months later like we did before 15:15:01 gerrit would have to test patches against multiple branches in this case 15:15:21 we have to stay ahead of the curve if we wish to stay relevant 15:15:28 the development branch would be able to keep those changes around and merged back at release time 15:15:45 master is the development branch. 15:16:00 if master is the "stable" branch, let's call it by what it is: stable 15:16:14 for the time being, it might make more sense to see how much improvement we see with emiliens proposed change 15:16:21 re: backports 15:16:33 I would find a consensus that is consistent with OpenStack: follow deprecations & using master for current dev branch. 15:16:37 clayton: do you like this idea? 15:16:41 people aren't happy with backports latency, we will have to figure out something else 15:16:54 or improve the situation somehow 15:17:00 mgagne: well, the latency will be improved with what we are doing with yanis 15:17:44 I'd like to see if that helps 15:17:52 are you guys ok if I start a blueprint and we continue the design/discussion on gerrit? 15:18:00 EmilienM: makes sense to me 15:18:01 EmilienM: I was more or less suggesting making master compatible with (at least) one stable branch. If this is what people are expecting from master, we should consider it. But until it's done, we shouldn't revert stuff from master for that purpose. 15:18:04 mfisch: me too, but without trying, who knows ? 15:18:18 good thing is that one can -1 the review until the commit message is happended for the backport thingy 15:18:29 EmilienM: I think the backport stuff that's going on is potentialy a great improvement 15:18:37 agreed 15:18:39 this way it will be up to us as a community to enforce that a fix is backported 15:18:42 cool, at least one positive thing here 15:18:56 fix/feature/whatever 15:19:00 I have to deal with the timing. are you guys -1/+1 the blueprint idea? 15:19:07 My only concern there is that people may forget to add the tag. I'm not sure it's a good idea, but we may want to consider backport-potential tag mandatory. 15:19:10 +1 15:19:47 I'll bring-up an etherpad before to groom all our proposals 15:19:55 clayton: there is already a unique ID associated to each commit. When you cherry-pick, the Change id is kept. why not diffing master and stable branches and see what can be backported? 15:19:56 It may be odd getting a patch that can be applied cleanly to two branches... 15:20:14 Or will it just open another review if the patch is berged? 15:20:17 It will probably be better if we keep up with it 15:20:42 mgagne: that'd probably be reasonable also, but we'll want to have some way to mark commits as evaluated for backport 15:21:13 well, let's continue after the meeting with an etherpad + a blueprint. 15:21:24 we need to go ahead in the agenda, I'm sorry. 15:21:29 ok 15:21:30 o/ 15:21:50 #action EmilienM starts an etherpad (+ blueprint?) about deprecation/backport policy 15:22:02 #topic modules style 15:22:04 spredzy: o/ 15:22:12 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/puppet_ensure_style_guide 15:22:25 not sure yanis is still around 15:22:28 Yep, I wanted to expose a possible solutin ^ 15:22:42 so it involes mgagne comment about making a puppet-lint-plugin per rule 15:22:55 spredzy: can you raise the problem first ? :-) 15:23:00 spredzy: per rule? wth =) 15:23:12 spredzy: how about a generic plugin which our style like hacking? 15:23:18 Oops sorry. missing context 15:23:37 The initial idea was to provide an authoritaative document for style in our modules 15:23:49 so the same style is consistent across all of them 15:24:01 sure 15:24:01 I like the idea if we can phase it in 15:24:02 The two proposals seem complementary. The lint plugin could link to sections in the doc 15:24:09 +1 15:24:10 yep 15:24:13 +/ 15:24:17 damn +1 15:24:17 +1 15:24:19 +1 15:24:25 +1 15:24:33 +1 15:24:36 +1 15:24:39 so q1. Would you agree for rule to be reviewed as code ? 15:24:40 +1 15:24:42 sounds like a good proposal 15:24:47 so discussions can take place in a review 15:24:55 ack 15:25:05 spredzy: yes, would make sense to have it in specs I think 15:25:29 ok, since everyone seems to be ok with it we can move on 15:25:38 spredzy: thanks 15:25:39 will try to provide a basic example soon 15:25:48 #topic https://bugs.launchpad.net/puppet-nova/+bug/1274979 15:25:49 mgagne: o/ 15:25:50 Launchpad bug 1274979 in puppet-swift "Introduce public_url, internal_url and admin_url parameters for endpoint configuration" [Undecided,New] - Assigned to David Moreau Simard (dmsimard) 15:26:05 yep, I would like people to reconsider that proposition 15:26:25 it's about removing the plethora of parameters in *::keystone::auth for more simple ones 15:26:34 big +1 on this one 15:26:35 just like openstacklib kind of introduced 15:26:56 the big part is backport compatibility which I already addressed in my way 15:27:34 as usual, we need to support backward compat for one release at lease 15:27:36 last time, the initiative got shutdown because people used the actual parameters to ease configuration of firewall and such 15:28:06 as they have to explicitly pass in port numbers and IP adresses which could be easily reused by other stuff 15:28:14 so this is similar to the identity_uri changes that were already made? 15:28:32 clayton: no but yes 15:29:03 clayton: this part only concerns Puppet, it's not "forced" by a change in OpenStack itself 15:29:10 nod 15:29:42 I think it makes sense, my only concern is the work required by deployers to update, but I think it's worthwhile 15:29:52 clayton: as usual I would say :) 15:29:57 it's feasable 15:30:09 mgagne: with warnings (?) 15:30:11 yep 15:30:18 ok 15:30:24 any other thoughts on this one? 15:30:31 I already introduced a bunch of warnings in my origin changes 15:30:38 +1 here 15:30:41 I'm more or less looking for objections 15:30:53 mgagne: any patch as reference to put in #link ? 15:31:16 https://review.openstack.org/#/c/70411/ 15:31:24 #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/70411/ 15:31:38 mgagne: perfect. 15:31:58 it sounds like work will continue on gerrit if there are no thoughts 15:32:10 mgagne: thx 15:32:13 np 15:32:18 #topic project naming 15:32:20 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/puppet-openstack-naming 15:32:45 well. I got an email last night from Puppetlabs folks - and they ask me to wait a bit to know if we can use PuppetOpenStack or not 15:32:57 in the meantime, we voted for a name 15:33:00 results are: http://civs.cs.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/results.pl?id=E_783794d78bcd45ad 15:33:00 "Puppet Modules" is what we're debating about 15:33:18 if we can't use Puppet in project name, winner will be "Marioneta" 15:33:34 +2! 15:33:43 crinkle: yes, thx 15:33:49 looks like we have all we need to move forward 15:33:50 no need to spend too much time on it 15:34:06 later, there is TC meeting 15:34:25 where they decide about Puppet OpenStack integration, I'll follow that and give them this same update 15:34:49 #topic puppet-config-parameter-defaults 15:34:54 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/puppet-config-parameter-defaults 15:34:58 clayton: o/ 15:35:31 Right now I feel like we're not very consistent about how we're handling config file values, and how parameters translate to config file contents 15:36:05 "we don't consistently ensure that they're removed when they're no longer managed" yep 15:36:07 this is kind of a strawman document to cover how I understood the situation, and see what other people's thoughts are on it 15:36:20 I've heard in the last meetings about a script that could check the default value in OpenStack ? 15:36:31 is it still something we consider? 15:36:37 it was an idea to help us keep up with latest config changes 15:36:39 I'm not proposing we go and update all existing modulkes with whatever we decide all at once, but if we could agree on an approach it'd go a long way 15:36:52 I'm not sure when we could make it possible 15:37:20 clayton: I think this could be part of our best practices that spredzy is going to push in specs, does not? 15:37:41 EmilienM: perhaps, it'd be hard to translate to a lint plugin, but I think we could document it as a policy 15:37:50 EmilienM: I think it's a subject more important than naming parameter consistently 15:38:37 oh I'm talking about values 15:38:48 clayton: doc would be a good start 15:39:01 core-reviewers would take that in consideration until we have a tool 15:39:42 clayton: how can we unblock the status quo ? 15:39:44 EmilienM: I think they're related. For example, if someone doesn't explicitly set a value, and the service has a reasonable default, I'd personally rather not have anything written in the config file. That potentially means ensuring the value is absent, or turning on purging the config files 15:40:14 EmilienM: I think we need some consensus on which of the two philosophies we want to adopt. Right now we're kind of all over the place 15:40:44 Personally I feel unless someone is going to do the tooling required by the more expressive config files, we should go the other route, since it's probably less work 15:40:55 It's a difficult subject because it could also mean that we could just refuse all changes introducing optional configs. People can already manage them with the config providers, why should we bother for ALL the configs? 15:40:56 yes, it's what I'm worried 15:41:31 mgagne: +1. Do you suggest any change in our config providers? 15:41:40 EmilienM: not yet :P 15:41:49 mgagne: I think that's always a hard call to me, but my suggestion would be that even when we accept those, that they default to undef, i.e. not setting a value 15:41:49 EmilienM: I've been thinking about a new feature though 15:41:51 instead of a default 15:41:59 mgagne: shoot 15:42:01 EmilienM: like purge_if_undef => True 15:42:15 EmilienM: instead of having if else all over the place 15:42:16 mgagne: nod, I think something like that might make it a lot easier 15:42:23 wow, cool 15:42:39 maybe some side-effect? 15:42:43 or we find a way to centralize all configs in a big manifest in a parsable format 15:42:48 so we only have one place to update 15:42:53 a bit like Chef attributes 15:43:11 that is going to be a mess 15:43:17 mgagne: my suggestion was to have similar behavior if the value was something magic, like 'absent' 15:43:40 or probalby a better name, 'unmanaged' 15:43:51 clayton: magic values are no longer magic when you find out that the value magic is a valid config value 15:43:54 I would rather see the "like purge_if_undef => True" thing that you can enable/disable for now 15:44:00 yeap, that's the downside. 15:44:07 EmilienM: yep and disable it by default 15:44:21 but if we went that route then the parameter default could be the magic value, something like '' might be better 15:44:21 EmilienM: or find a way to make it not destroy everything 15:44:39 clayton: lets not introduce more magic =) 15:44:44 clayton, mgagne: sounds like we start having something here. Can you use the etherpad to update the thoughts? 15:44:48 I need to move on the agenda 15:44:56 sure 15:44:57 do we want purge_if_undef or do we want unmanged_if_undef? 15:45:13 mgagne, clayton: it will probably lead to a blueprint/specs later. sounds okay? 15:45:14 we probably don't want to remove vendor provided options from stock config files 15:45:23 yes we dont ^ 15:45:29 clayton: oh god =) 15:45:36 or no we dont, however you want to parse it 15:46:03 mgagne: so you'd be ok with something more like unmanaged_if_undef? 15:46:14 clayton: I would like to explore the idea 15:46:27 clayton: see the feasability 15:46:38 nod, sounds like we need to investigate a bit 15:46:46 sure 15:46:55 cool 15:47:03 mgagne, clayton: are we done for this one? 15:47:08 I think so 15:47:15 I'm good 15:47:18 I have some announcements 15:47:22 #topic announcements 15:48:04 #info Summit: collaborative day will be Tuesday - we will have a 50-100 people room for us - feel free to contribute to the agenda 15:48:17 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/liberty-summit-design-puppet 15:48:33 #info Summit: Puppet/OPS will be on Wednesday morning 15:48:44 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/liberty-summit-ops-puppet 15:48:47 we have the whole day on Tuesday? 15:48:57 mfisch: from 11am to 6pm Sir! 15:49:06 Okay 15:49:08 cool 15:49:21 #info Puppet 4.0: jobs are created as non-voting - waiting for https://github.com/rodjek/rspec-puppet/pull/265 15:49:30 Hunner: thx for the work BTW on rspec 15:49:51 It's green in travisci, but doing some last checking before merge 15:50:05 #topic keystone v3 15:50:10 richm: o/ 15:50:25 can you give us a *very quick* status & blockers ? 15:50:43 let me get the list of reviews for openstacklib 15:51:02 richm: I dropped a comment, if we could have one single topic for all this work, that would help *a lot* 15:51:34 EmilienM: ok - gildub needs to fix his topics 15:51:37 ok 15:51:46 richm: without URLs, can you tell us what's up? 15:51:46 I'd like to officially thank richm for answering all my stupid keystone v3 questions the other day :) 15:51:49 We would like to get https://review.openstack.org/173788 reviewed 15:51:54 clayton: +1 15:52:07 We're waiting on this ^^^ openstacklib review 15:52:31 #action please review https://review.openstack.org/173788 15:52:34 I've completed the core work to allow us to create multiple domains for multi-domain authentication 15:53:25 These are out for review 15:53:56 Based on this work, and on crinkle's conversion of glance to use the openstack provider, I'm using glance as a poc of using v3 with other modules 15:53:56 richm: I would help you to test it in our gate with beaker, so we can make sure we don't break something. Please make sure we have right dependencies in all the patches 15:54:22 EmilienM: Is there anything I need to do other than make sure it is rebased to the latest master HEAD commit? 15:54:37 richm: doings patches dependencies in gerrit 15:54:40 we can take it offline 15:54:44 after the meeting 15:54:44 ok 15:54:58 richm: thx *a lot* for this work (with imcsk8 btw) 15:55:07 I move on 15:55:11 gildub is working on converting the keystone_service and keystone_endpoint resources to use keystone v3 15:55:23 imcsk8 is converting packstack to use keystone v3 15:55:42 so we have testing in packstack (which is a good use case), great 15:56:08 as soon as I complete my preliminary puppet-glance work, I will update the bp with what I've found 15:56:20 richm: excepts 'need review' - do you need something else from us? 15:56:35 EmilienM: no 15:56:42 gildub will be working on v3 trusts 15:56:49 richm: ok - i'll catch up with you after the meeting (for testing & dependencies) 15:57:00 we have 4 min 15:57:02 #topic Default database collation (ie. current utf8_unicode_ci) 15:57:10 #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/puppet-ceilometer/+bug/1446375 15:57:10 Launchpad bug 1446375 in puppet-tuskar "Default MySQL collate parameter is not the one from db_sync" [Critical,New] - Assigned to Emilien Macchi (emilienm) 15:57:33 I expected from this meeting to agree at how we solve it 15:57:38 should we change the default? 15:57:46 I know there is a problem but I didn't dig into it yet 15:57:49 is it going to break some data ? (I don't think so) 15:57:54 we should make it consistent 15:58:04 +1 to changingthe default, but we should also figure out the underlying cause of the issue so that if someone did want to change the charset, they could 15:58:08 EmilienM: I read up on this a little bit, it only effects sorting order for columns 15:58:23 clayton: that's what I thought 15:58:41 the difference between the two is that the unicode collation does sorting properly 15:58:49 I can do some tests but someone will need to help me understand where the "wrong" collate comes from 15:58:52 general takes shortcuts for performance reasons, but works on most languages 15:58:56 ok so we change the default? 15:59:13 From what I read, general was discourged, since the performance differences for most people now days are pretty minor 15:59:20 EmilienM: the current setting doesn't make sense and causes problem for me 15:59:21 mgagne: yeah, we need to find out where it's changed (db_sync) ? 15:59:35 ok, I'll change the defaults and send patches. 16:00:01 does it impact running dbs at all? 16:00:01 I'm sorry to tell you we are approaching the end. For open discussion and bugs/patches, please move on #puppet-openstack, we are all here I think 16:00:18 sorry if I missed it before I got called away 16:00:25 #action EmilienM changes defaults for https://bugs.launchpad.net/puppet-ceilometer/+bug/1446375 16:00:25 Launchpad bug 1446375 in puppet-tuskar "Default MySQL collate parameter is not the one from db_sync" [Critical,New] - Assigned to Emilien Macchi (emilienm) 16:00:33 I have to close guys, I'm sorry 16:00:38 #endmeeting