11:00:40 <oneswig> #startmeeting scientific-sig
11:00:41 <openstack> Meeting started Wed Nov 22 11:00:40 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is oneswig. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
11:00:42 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
11:00:45 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'scientific_sig'
11:00:57 <oneswig> Lets see what happens with the name change...
11:01:31 <oneswig> #link agenda for today https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Scientific_SIG#IRC_Meeting_November_22nd_2017
11:02:29 <oneswig> roll call - who's here?
11:02:52 <johnthetubaguy> o/
11:03:01 * ildikov is lurking :)
11:03:08 <oneswig> hello again john, hi ildiko
11:03:24 <oneswig> awfully quiet this morning...
11:03:58 <ildikov> oneswig: johnthetubaguy: hi :)
11:04:15 * johnthetubaguy hides from ildikov
11:04:21 <johnthetubaguy> only kidding :)
11:04:42 <ildikov> johnthetubaguy: well, I have a new version of the new attach flow patch that you should review :)
11:04:53 <b1airo> evening
11:05:07 <ildikov> johnthetubaguy: I can ask oneswig to remind you after the meeting if that helps ;)
11:05:09 <oneswig> Hi b1airo
11:05:13 <johnthetubaguy> ildikov: totally should go have a look at that again, something for after lunch with a nice coffee :)
11:05:27 <oneswig> #chair b1airo
11:05:27 <b1airo> not sure i will manage to stay the course - quickly fading through combination of jetlag and heat
11:05:28 <openstack> Current chairs: b1airo oneswig
11:05:40 <ildikov> johnthetubaguy: tests are supposed to pass now, so pretty please
11:05:51 <oneswig> b1airo: shall we do a roundup of SC first up then?
11:06:03 <b1airo> sure
11:06:04 <oneswig> #topic SC roundup
11:06:05 <ildikov> johnthetubaguy: mriedem has Turkey week going so you're my only hope
11:06:18 <oneswig> Turkey week - ha! :-)
11:06:54 <oneswig> #link SKA keynote at SC https://youtu.be/VceKNiRxDBc?t=1h3m2s
11:07:13 <oneswig> check out the A/V gear on stage there...
11:07:24 <b1airo> i haven't actually seen the keynote yet, was it good?
11:07:31 <oneswig> makes the OpenStack summit look like a school play!
11:08:10 <oneswig> b1airo: I think it was well received.  John T was there and saw some enthusiastic response
11:08:53 <b1airo> sounds like they got Alexa to read the intro...
11:09:28 <oneswig> yes, it's a peculiar voice over.  A bit like a very calm customer support kind of voice
11:11:03 <oneswig> b1airo: you mentioned the BoF was pretty well attended, but perhaps too many speakers up front for one session?
11:11:42 <b1airo> yep
11:11:58 <b1airo> i'd say slightly lower attendance than last year but still a pretty full room
11:12:08 <oneswig> Last year was a very big room
11:12:15 <b1airo> there was also a HPC Cloud BoF by DK Panda and co. on at the same time
11:12:27 <b1airo> so not great scheduling
11:12:35 <oneswig> John T tells me that went off on a docker vs singularity tangent
11:12:52 <b1airo> i didn't speak to anyone that went to that BoF yet though so can't say if it pulled much attention
11:13:00 <oneswig> and was not rich in data analytics content
11:13:02 <b1airo> oh ok
11:13:09 <b1airo> pity
11:13:14 <oneswig> yeah
11:13:56 <b1airo> the actual Shifter / Singularity / CharlieCloud session was very demilitarised
11:14:07 <oneswig> demilitarised?
11:14:17 <oneswig> as in, no religious war?
11:14:34 <b1airo> yeah, uncontroversial
11:14:58 <oneswig> that sounds better.
11:15:15 <oneswig> How were the OpenStack talks at the IU booth?
11:15:30 <b1airo> there were some guys (i forget names and orgs) apparently representing europe (big call) on that panel who made some interesting points about MPI integration
11:16:22 <oneswig> "speaking on behalf of Europe"... that's saying something,
11:17:30 <b1airo> good, i think Tim probably had the most new material to share. also had that Intel fellow talking about OpenHPC integration
11:17:54 <oneswig> Was that Jeff?  I think he's moved internally within Intel, unfortunately
11:17:58 <oneswig> Did the books all go?
11:18:34 <b1airo> Jeff sounds good - I had John stuck in my head by knew it wasn't right :-)
11:19:10 <b1airo> it's 10:20pm and still almost 30C
11:19:26 <oneswig> Are you in Australia?  It wasn't like that a couple of weeks ago...
11:19:53 <b1airo> books were well received in the BoF. i think the IU booth still had a few on Wednesday evening but probably distributed the rest on Thurs
11:20:13 <b1airo> yep - Melbourne weather!
11:20:24 <ildikov> it's not 30C everywhere, but it's definitely a pretty nice evening :)
11:20:41 <oneswig> OK, good to know about the books.
11:20:45 <b1airo> 4 seasons in 1 day and all that
11:20:56 <b1airo> ildikov, where are you this evening?
11:21:03 <oneswig> b1airo: it's only dark season here today...
11:21:32 <ildikov> b1airo: Forster (great Lakes or something like 4 hours North from Sydney)
11:22:25 <oneswig> ildikov: nice!  Is it safe to swim in the lakes or are they full of toxic Australian fauna?
11:22:53 <ildikov> oneswig: haven't asked/tried yet
11:22:58 <b1airo> re. SC17, if I had to sum things up I'd say my impression is that OpenStack seems quite entrenched across quite a few large scale lab and university hpc centres now
11:23:10 <ildikov> oneswig: but it certainly sounds discouraging to do so :)
11:23:45 <b1airo> i think next year we would do well to spend more time on going around the room and trying to pull out bugbears and common problems
11:23:45 <oneswig> b1airo: good to know.  Part of the wider movement out of the lab and into production in research computing
11:24:09 <ildikov> b1airo: that sounds pretty good!
11:24:09 <b1airo> the challenge is to pull the conversation away from specific version and upgrade issues towards unmet requirements
11:24:55 <oneswig> b1airo: I think you are right.  It's too easy to talk without encouraging the quiet ones at the back to add their thoughts
11:25:07 <ildikov> b1airo: is there any chance to have them involved in the SIG for instance or it's trickier than that?
11:25:23 <oneswig> I was encouraged at how many people in Sydney had not taken part in the SIG previously
11:26:27 <johnthetubaguy> In the past an etherpad to type your thoughts on certainly helps get thoughts from those that don't want to speak up over the loud people
11:26:39 <ildikov> johnthetubaguy: +1
11:26:47 <b1airo> agreed, i did use an etherpad :-D
11:26:50 <oneswig> johnthetubaguy: sure, we had one
11:27:02 <oneswig> but I'm not sure how much it was used.
11:27:16 <b1airo> there were maybe 8 people on it at most though
11:27:26 <oneswig> There's a culture of debate-via-etherpad that doesn't come naturally outside of upstream contributors
11:27:31 <johnthetubaguy> yeah, making people use the thing can be harder
11:27:45 <b1airo> (however i was only able to put the URL up during the first 5 minutes as presenters had their own slides and there was no other screen or board
11:27:50 <johnthetubaguy> probably not all their with their laptop charged ready to type in an etherpad
11:28:03 <johnthetubaguy> ah... slides, that kills etherpad use
11:28:35 <oneswig> I think the lightning talks went quite well though - we had some good diversity of content there.
11:29:00 <b1airo> oneswig, yes i find the debate via etherpad thing very hard to follow - basically killed my following of updates to the recent LTS discussion
11:29:09 <johnthetubaguy> (clearly there is no perfect solution here, very curious how it goes outside of the OpenStack world!)
11:29:54 <b1airo> oneswig, agreed, was good to have some new (to me at least) stories there
11:30:04 <oneswig> johnthetubaguy: me too.  Is K8s developed in this manner I wonder?
11:30:37 <johnthetubaguy> oneswig: yeah, don't know
11:30:54 <johnthetubaguy> good to see more folks stepping up to speak, sounds healthy :)
11:31:29 <oneswig> ildikov: do you know how well subscribed the openstack-sigs mailing list is now?  Just wondering if we should keep discussions on operators and sigs lists
11:32:13 <ildikov> oneswig: I don't have the number, but will ask
11:32:55 <oneswig> at some point discussions should cut over from cross-posting but don't want to lose the relevant audience by doing that prematurely...
11:33:05 <ildikov> oneswig: we keep referring to it in some Dev ML discussions etc and encouraging people to join, so I would think it's going up
11:33:17 <oneswig> OK, that's good.
11:33:41 <ildikov> I will get back to you on this
11:35:16 <oneswig> I think we are too thin on the ground today to do much with the other items on the agenda. I suggest I follow up on the mailing list about them.
11:35:56 <oneswig> I had one item - for next week, a Slurm-on-OpenStack theme.  b1airo do you think Chris Hines would be interested?
11:36:36 <b1airo> oneswig, yes i'm sure he would
11:36:47 <b1airo> i suspect many HPC operators would be
11:37:17 <oneswig> Piyanai I know was interested in presenting their work again
11:39:12 <b1airo> oneswig, did you attend the ORC meeting on Thurs after the Summit?
11:39:19 <oneswig> OK, let's aim for that.  I'll see if we can get the Intel OpenHPC team involved too.
11:39:27 <oneswig> b1airo: yes I did - with ildikov
11:39:43 <b1airo> i heard you might have been a bit worse for wear...
11:40:03 <b1airo> didn't see you at Karaoke though??
11:40:09 <oneswig> I went on for high-level discussions with Tim afterwards...
11:40:10 <ildikov> yep, I can confirm oneswig was there too :)
11:40:30 <oneswig> ildikov: sorry to leave abruptly
11:41:01 <b1airo> Tim said he thought it was an improved meeting
11:41:12 <ildikov> oneswig: all good, everyone was leaving quickly after the group photo
11:41:39 <oneswig> I must admit, I'm glad I didn't make it to karaoke, could have been far worse...
11:41:54 <ildikov> b1airo: good news I guess, I wanted to ask for feedback :)
11:42:04 <b1airo> by the way on this topic - I was chatting to Resa Reynolds from Cornell, they are one of the partners in this project: https://federatedcloud.org/
11:43:11 <b1airo> i know Resa through the DellXL HPC community. they were previously using Eucalyptus but are currently making the switch to OpenStack
11:43:13 <ildikov> oh, with the NSF stamp on it, nice
11:43:54 <b1airo> yeah, i wondered whether the ORC chairs have been in touch with them - should be looking to collaborate
11:44:06 <oneswig> ildikov: The impression I got was the initiative wants to arrive at a (distant) goal but should focus more on first steps.  Perhaps I'm not active enough in the discussions but I was expecting to see something more like a roadmap.  Early days still?
11:44:18 <ildikov> b1airo: not sure, but I can bring this up on one of the upcoming meetings
11:44:20 <b1airo> (in fact the NSF people showed up at their booth when I was there!)
11:45:00 <ildikov> b1airo: oh, nice!
11:45:37 <b1airo> please do ildikov - like oneswig I feel a bit too removed from the conversation to put my oar in and don't have the bandwidth either
11:45:41 <ildikov> oneswig: something like, I think we would like to set up a goal to agree on and encourage more organizations/institutions to get involved and set up that roadmap
11:46:02 <b1airo> ...i wonder whether we could convince them to piggy-back on our meetings every so often
11:46:24 <ildikov> oneswig: or as they operate now that's what seems "doable" to me at this point
11:46:52 <oneswig> ildikov: institutions will want to see evidence of an advantage to the effort of taking part, I guess
11:46:52 <ildikov> however trying to encourage people to set up some achievable items as I think that would be more appealing
11:47:23 <ildikov> b1airo: will do, I will also encourage them to take some notes from the meetings
11:47:58 <ildikov> b1airo: I think I'll fly during the next one and it's almost impossible to figure out what happened during these calls if you don't attend :(
11:47:59 <oneswig> Isn't Martial a co-chair now?
11:48:09 <ildikov> yep, he is
11:48:37 <ildikov> so there should be a close connection besides me
11:48:44 <b1airo> the teleconference thing is not great
11:48:56 <ildikov> I think he usually attends this meeting when it's in his TZ
11:49:22 <ildikov> b1airo: there are communities that handle it, but they take at least some notes on IRC or some other format
11:49:22 <oneswig> last time he was up at 2am, as I recall.  There are very few things I'll get up at 2am for.
11:49:30 <ildikov> ORC has Slack now
11:49:44 <ildikov> but no real activity there at this point
11:49:50 <b1airo> i also heard some gossip that set off alarm bells for me - was Khalil suggesting the concept of a broker appliance ?
11:49:54 <ildikov> I'll try and see whether I can get some life on it :)
11:50:28 <ildikov> he has a few figures now with stuff like that
11:50:50 <ildikov> I need to look up the slides though, I don't remember the structure that well, maybe oneswig does
11:51:25 <oneswig> There was a hardware appliance in the concept diagram which was not well received.
11:52:05 <oneswig> I think it was more of a gateway - don't remember any reference to a broker.
11:52:25 <ildikov> I remember the gateway impression
11:52:40 <ildikov> I got confused on some of the parts
11:53:08 <ildikov> and I also mentioned that if any SW gets developed we should have an open source reference implementation
11:53:54 <ildikov> we almost got into a don't close out commercial players debate on that one...
11:54:21 <b1airo> hmmm
11:55:02 <ildikov> I don't think we're on a wrong track, they just need heads up on aspects every now and then
11:55:06 <ildikov> IMHO
11:56:14 <verdurin> Okay, I confess I hadn't updated my calendar entry for the time change. Bah.
11:56:37 <b1airo> hi verdurin :-)
11:56:59 <oneswig> verdurin: never mind, we can run for a second hour :-)
11:57:00 <ildikov> verdurin: been there, done that, I missed almost all my meetings for days for the last one...
11:57:16 <verdurin> Definite interest from the RCUK Cloud WG for input to our workshop from the SIG
11:57:22 <b1airo> one of the interesting things about the federatedcloud.org project that Resa mentioned was that they were figuring out some sort of capacity exchange mechanism - from the website: "This project will serve as an important model for campus cyberinfrastructure that other institutions can follow providing flexibility in support of multi-discipline scientific workflows, elasticity by sharing resources, and an allocation model that provides a fair
11:57:22 <b1airo> exchange mechanism for resource access between and across multiple institutions."
11:59:17 <oneswig> OK, alas we are out of time
11:59:32 <ildikov> b1airo: that indeed sounds interesting
11:59:38 <oneswig> b1airo: there's a good deal in common there.  Can we get them along to a meeting?
11:59:47 <ildikov> b1airo: would be good to connect with them
12:00:12 <oneswig> b1airo: Whenever I see bartering of resources I think of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Soup
12:00:54 <martial_> : I seem to be 1h late when I thought to be on time
12:00:57 <oneswig> OK, time's up, thanks ildikov johnthetubaguy b1airo verdurin
12:01:04 <verdurin> bye
12:01:06 <b1airo> ha, yes a classic oneswig
12:01:11 <ildikov> oneswig: hmmm, didn't know the Hungarian version before :)
12:01:12 <oneswig> ah hello martial_ - alas it seems so
12:01:43 <oneswig> I'm sure you'll be out in force next week :-)
12:01:46 <oneswig> #endmeeting