15:00:38 #startmeeting StoryBoard 15:00:38 Meeting started Mon Apr 27 15:00:38 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is krotscheck. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 15:00:39 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 15:00:42 The meeting name has been set to 'storyboard' 15:00:42 hey hey 15:01:10 ohai all 15:01:13 Just a sec, I've had some traffic issues this morning and am still getting situatied. 15:01:45 Filled the SB@YVR etherpad with some rancom braindump 15:01:51 random even 15:03:30 Agenda: 15:03:31 #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/StoryBoard#Agenda 15:03:32 #topic Actinons from last week 15:03:34 Nothing. 15:03:34 #topic Urgent Items: 15:03:35 Has anything come up in the last week? 15:03:37 ping?j 15:03:54 nothing that I've noticed 15:04:10 Well, subscriptions turned out to not be working, so I fixed that. 15:04:30 #topic User Feedback 15:04:58 krotscheck: can you share the etherpad link again please 15:05:05 I got a note from a team internal to HP that's interested in using a "Topic Tracker that means we don't have to enter bugs twice in upstream and downstream" 15:05:15 NikitaKonovalov: This one? https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/storyboard-vancouver-may-2015 15:05:28 yes, thanks 15:06:23 I told them about storyboard. I'm starting to think that if we're going to keep storyboard alive, the federation piece may be a good lifeline 15:06:36 Any other user feedback? 15:06:43 hi, just joining, sorry 15:06:46 it definitely is a selling point 15:06:49 did i miss something important? 15:06:52 (federation) 15:07:02 yolanda: Not really. 15:07:05 krotscheck: I got a note from a team internal to HP that's interested in using a "Topic Tracker that means we don't have to enter bugs twice in upstream and downstream" 15:07:30 With that in mind, I'd like to have someone put time into a federation spec. 15:07:34 HP seems to be quite integrated into Jira 15:07:34 But we can discuss that later. 15:07:47 yolanda: Yep. 15:07:54 yolanda: That was the horizon team. 15:08:55 so that will be our case in our team now, if we work in upstream we'll need to reflect that on upstream bug tracker and inr our downstream task trackers 15:09:12 some some integration between SB - Jira could help 15:09:18 #topic Discussion: What questions do we need to have answered in Vancouver? 15:09:43 Dumped a few notes on the economics of the discussion 15:09:45 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/storyboard-vancouver-may-2015 15:10:22 not properly questions, but where I think the decision hinges 15:10:39 ttx: Those are good questions. 15:11:14 so i had questions from related people these weeks, and all they tend to think that openstack will remain on launchpad 15:11:53 Interesting. 15:12:17 One thing that might be interesting is the migration strategy from launchpad to storyboard. 15:12:30 peristeri: go on? 15:12:40 One interesting development might be that StoryBoard continues as a separate project, and no longer is totally aligned with openstack needs. We can make sure it doesn't stray too far off, but that way it may ttract external contribs 15:13:14 Another interesting thing could be a "StoryBoard as a Service" platform. 15:13:23 But that'd have to be independently funded. 15:13:31 I see that if there's a strategy, we could have openstack groups expressing what is important to capture. 15:13:33 Where are VCs when we need them 15:13:36 +1 on that, ease of use will attract people 15:13:51 but krotscheck, that's a relevant feature, needs dedicated resources for sure 15:14:23 peristeri: We have a strategy, though it has been poorly communicated. After we get 1.2 done, the 'floodgates' were supposed to be open for projects to start moving over, based on their own needs. 15:16:17 Ok, so we have a lot of different angles from which we can attach this topic, which one do we start with? I'm thinking that whether or not the project is viable is largely dependent on whether OpenSTack continues to use it. 15:16:32 krotscheck, I see, changing to a more iterative approach might be less stressful and less cognitive load. 15:16:49 Because, quite frankly, without OpenStack wanting it, HP's going to ask some serious questions. 15:16:57 Been proposing a "task tracking for openstack" on the infra planning etherpad 15:17:19 peristeri: You mean: Pick a project, meet their needs, move to the next project? 15:17:22 There (if accepted) we show off the current state 15:17:39 and how far we expect to be in 6 months based in commitments 15:17:50 Same for the Maniphest option 15:17:59 (see who commits to support that) 15:18:04 ttx, Maniphest? what's taht? 15:18:08 a new alternative? 15:18:11 Phabricator's task tracker 15:18:15 krotscheck, yes. Start with one of the more isolated ones such as oslo (fewer dependencies) 15:18:15 ah ok 15:18:17 ttx: I'm not certain that that's a good idea. Most of the work has been done on the backend, and we'd be showing frontend things that haven't really changed much since Paris. People respond to pretty things. 15:18:36 true 15:20:25 Fact is that the future of storyboard is entirely out of our hands. 15:20:46 I mean yeah, we can keep hacking on it in our spare time, but unless openstack uses it, we won't get paid to do so. 15:21:04 And that decision lies, ultimately, with the board and the TC> 15:21:37 krotscheck, agree, having dedication on free time won't take project anywhere 15:21:41 need justification to work on it 15:22:51 for HP side, having SB adopted as Storyboard, and provide integration with Jira of some sort, could be a win 15:23:01 SB adopted into Openstack i mean 15:23:42 If JIRA has an API, we could set it as a federated upstream. 15:23:55 it has, we've done some automation inside 15:24:15 Ok, so that's an avenue we can explore. 15:24:59 This suggests that the next storyboard planning meeting is going to be "Survival features". Things we need to even compete. 15:25:31 :) 15:26:37 Ok, so let's go back to what we need to ask in Vancouver. 15:27:05 So: Is storyboard going to continue to be used? 15:27:11 I think the answer to that is "Yes until an alternative is found" 15:27:25 (And it could be that an alternative is never found) 15:27:33 ack 15:28:18 if that is the answer, i'd ask for "resources dedicated to StoryBoard" 15:28:53 Right. Because the status of StoryBoard "right now" is "used by infra and we're anticipating more teams start adopting us in Liberty" 15:28:57 And that hasn't really changed. 15:29:26 and who is really dedicated to that, paid for? Aleksei and NIkita? 15:29:27 What has changed is that members of the Board have started to ask for things that storyboard won't support without additional resources, and have asked the question of "Why not something else" 15:29:59 NikitaKonovalov: I agree with what you're writing in the etherpad right now. 15:30:26 krotscheck: that sounds a bit inconsistent though 15:30:27 Quote: "If StoryBoard is going to be developed further the feature planing should be done more granually. (Having a huge search spec is great, but noone is willing to implement that)" 15:30:42 ttx: What do you mean? 15:30:53 asking for more features without providing more resources 15:31:35 ttx: Isn't that a regular management tactic though? I don't want to pay for the features I need, can't I use open source? 15:32:13 those board members are supposed to know better, but meh 15:33:07 So to NikitaKonovalov's comment, we've spent a lot of effort, maybe too much, trying to get the architecture and the implementation "perfect". 15:33:09 even using open source an integration job needs to be done, nothing comes for free 15:33:17 So we've churned a lot trying to get everyone's buy-in 15:33:59 * krotscheck hasn't been good at that either. 15:34:26 But even so, we can't have people building features without discussion with the rest of the team. 15:34:46 Ugh, I'm derailing 15:34:47 Sorry 15:35:01 krotscheck, you've done a great work on-boarding people and engage in collaboration 15:35:10 So: StoryBoard will continue to be used. It needs more resources. 15:35:25 I'm going to keep working on it, as best I can. 15:35:47 i cannot do more than reviews right now, or hack a bit on free time 15:35:51 I appreciate aripinine's work, though it'd be nice if I could talk to him and have discussions about design. 15:36:05 * krotscheck has never actually talked to aleksey 15:36:21 (On IRC or in person) 15:36:31 Just to make clear what I mean is we've planed to have SDK, but we had no use cases for it mind when doing that. It resulted in the SDK that is there, but I thing not everyone even here has tried it 15:36:56 NikitaKonovalov: .... 15:37:01 NikitaKonovalov: Wow. yes. That's an excellent point. 15:37:22 NikitaKonovalov: It's something speicfic that Infra asked for, and yet Infra itself is not willing to do the integration work. 15:37:53 Which tells me that if they want to move to Maniphest, they will similarly not bother doing the integration work. 15:38:44 which is.... reassuring. 15:38:48 then it means launchpad forever 15:38:51 Yep 15:40:32 Seems to me like we should really set expectations with all of our customers as to what we are going to deliver. It could be that the assumption in Paris was: Oh, the StoryBoard team is going to deliver an SDK _and_ integrate it. 15:40:46 And our assumption was "We're going to deliver an SDK" 15:41:40 This seems to me that the ultimate survival feature for SToryBoard is "momentum" 15:41:52 krotscheck, do you mean, more involvement of the teams that want to adopt it' 15:41:53 ? 15:43:04 yolanda: More.... people are already using it, if we continue to push our way into their infrastructure then it'll survive because our users don't want to put up the effort to integrate a new thing. 15:44:32 then we should ask for a set of topics that are a completely need to ensure adoption 15:44:42 yolanda: That's the roadmap. 15:44:48 yolanda: exaclty 15:45:03 ok, show roadmap and prioritize things 15:45:08 the more detailed it is the better 15:45:18 Urm. I don't actually think we're going to get that from infra. 15:45:28 I think we're going to get that from the openstack teams. Nova, Horizon, etc. 15:45:37 Ironic, for instance, really wants security bugs. 15:46:07 If I recall correctly, they want security bugs, zuul/gerrit integration. 15:46:12 I think that's it 15:46:29 Oh, and release management 15:48:23 NikitaKonovalov, yolanda: It sounds like you have very specific requests for this, maybe you can both look at the roadmap and make the edits you're looking for? https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/StoryBoard#Vision_.26_Roadmap 15:48:32 let me check 15:49:47 well, federation is there but unscheduled 15:50:00 krotscheck: ok, I'll try to add details there 15:50:11 Cool, thank you. 15:53:14 Honestly, I wouldn't mind some help on managing the roadmap, I keep feeling like I have these massive things to work on, and as a result it's difficult to get started. 15:54:00 Anyway, I think we've talked about this enough, let's do open discussion. 15:54:13 Any disagreements? 15:54:22 nope 15:54:25 nope 15:54:29 #topic Open Discussion 15:55:28 I want to do release emails. 15:55:33 Like: Hey, here's a new feature! 15:55:55 I feel it'll help with visibility. 15:56:04 on an independent mailing list? 15:56:41 For the moment, probably on Openstack-dev/infra. 15:56:41 Maybe a blog? 15:56:41 Who's our audience 15:56:44 openstack-infra is a good list for that I think 15:57:06 ah, i was just going to propose it, depending on the relationship with infra... have some blog, tweet... 15:57:51 3 minutes 15:58:21 The easiest right now is just an email to -dev and -infra I think. 15:58:28 do we have some stats of usage in number of users, bugs, etc? 15:58:29 could we have the change log in StoryBoard itself and send links to that 15:58:33 Setting up a blog and a twitter account gets into foundation branding things. 15:58:43 so people open StoryBoard at least to read that 15:58:52 and probably go and explore 15:59:04 NikitaKonovalov: That sounds brilliant. Maybe a link to the project group page that collects all the changes? 15:59:15 krotscheck: as an option ... 15:59:53 ++ to communicating progress 16:00:08 Ok, we're out. Thanks everyone! 16:00:12 #endmeeting