15:00:31 <Zara> #startmeeting storyboard
15:00:32 <openstack> Meeting started Wed May 25 15:00:31 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Zara. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00:34 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
15:00:36 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'storyboard'
15:00:44 <Zara> #topic announcements
15:00:54 <Zara> No announcements on agenda; have I missed anything?
15:01:15 * Zara assumes not
15:01:20 <Zara> #topic urgent items
15:01:23 <Zara> again, nothing listed
15:01:28 <Zara> anything urgent?
15:01:33 <Zara> speak fast if so
15:01:46 <Zara> #topic In Progress Work
15:01:58 <Zara> okay, I forgot to update these from last week
15:02:18 <Zara> complex priorities are listed on the agenda; afaik those are parked for now
15:02:56 <Zara> since it requires subscription to worklists, and that's a big chunk of work that we don't yet have a timeline for
15:03:11 <Zara> but project teams are also listed!
15:03:19 <Zara> Over to you, SotK!
15:03:30 <SotK> I sent patches for adding a UI to manage teams
15:03:44 <Zara> \o/
15:03:45 <SotK> #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack-infra/storyboard-webclient+branch:master+topic:teams
15:04:13 <SotK> I've not looked at being able ot use teams in permissions anywhere yet though
15:04:26 <Zara> still, one thing at a time! :D
15:04:43 <Zara> these look cool, I hope to finish reviewing by the end of the week
15:05:15 <SotK> \o/
15:05:15 <Zara> thank you for investigating and making the ui!
15:06:09 <Zara> so, the agenda lists operator docs, but I haven't done any further work on those since we all started to focus on setting up a dev instance
15:06:17 <Zara> oh hm, the dev instance should've been an announcement!
15:06:21 <Zara> gah mid-week meetings
15:06:48 <Zara> #info StoryBoard has a dev instance! It's at https://storyboard-dev.openstack.org/#!/dashboard/stories
15:07:14 <Zara> thanks to fungi, nibalizer, anteaya and everyone else in the infra team who helped set this up :)
15:07:25 <SotK> indeed, thanks for the help!
15:08:23 <fungi> any time
15:08:44 <Zara> a big motivation for me in wanting to set up operator docs was so that people could quickly get to a 'playground' instance when trying out storyboard for the first time (or trying out new features), so the dev instance should help with that. and hopefully I can come back to the operator docs...
15:08:44 <fungi> i have the replacement storyboard.o.o server built. after the meeting i'll get you ip addresses to check its interface out before i change dns
15:08:49 <Zara> \o/
15:08:54 <Zara> thank you
15:09:01 * nibalizer dances
15:09:02 <SotK> woo, thanks for that too
15:09:07 <krotscheck> \o/
15:09:07 <fungi> so it'll be on a similar ubuntu release to teh dev server once that's complete
15:09:13 <Zara> yaaay
15:09:42 <Zara> that should have also been an announcement... I'm winning at announcements today...
15:10:05 <Zara> #info StoryBoard is very nearly upgraded!
15:10:52 <Zara> #info Zara has been working on gerrit integration
15:11:00 <Zara> well I've not got much done and I don't know where the time has gone
15:11:23 <Zara> pedroalvarez left some review comments, and I got as far as reading them, but not implementing them
15:11:30 <Zara> so hmmm
15:12:06 <Zara> I *did* manage to just break email for everyone in my workplace with a combination of my gerrit wip script and email notifications
15:12:11 <Zara> so, erm, watch out for that
15:12:26 <Zara> if you tell storyboard to send out 20000 emails, it will most definitely send them
15:12:45 <Zara> oh! the dev server is on the agenda!
15:12:51 <Zara> anyone have anything to add on that?
15:13:08 <SotK> I've not
15:14:08 <Zara> #info sotk is silent, like a mysterious hawk or something idk i didn't sleep
15:14:11 <Zara> #undo
15:14:11 <openstack> Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Info object at 0xa6e5810>
15:14:25 <Zara> the last thing I have listed is betherly's tutorial
15:14:29 <Zara> but I think she's on holiday today
15:14:37 <Zara> so!
15:14:58 <Zara> #topic Product WG cross project dashboard
15:15:09 <Zara> so that's listed as a topic but that might be leftover from last week
15:15:19 <Zara> does anyone have anything they want to say about this?
15:16:25 <Zara> looks like nobody does
15:16:42 <Zara> I'm guessing people are still putting together requirements etc, then
15:16:49 <Zara> #topic Open Discussion
15:16:59 <Zara> Discuss!
15:17:39 <Zara> So something that just came up in the storyboard channel-- security... how do we stop someone making a script that updates storyboard in a way to cause people email spam?
15:19:23 <Zara> and anything else along those lines, I guess. I think we should give it some thought since a lot of features are at the 'it works' stage but could be exploited, and I juuuust saw a spammer in #openstack-infra, so hey
15:19:27 <SotK> disable login for the offending account (assuming the enable_login column in the users table does what it suggests
15:20:06 <ttx> o/
15:20:09 <ityaptin> o/
15:20:10 <ttx> bit late, network issues
15:20:23 <Zara> hi!
15:20:54 <Zara> sotk: okay, so that's the reactive side... anything preventative anyone can think of?
15:20:54 <SotK> hi!
15:21:03 <Zara> otherwise I'll leave it for people to mull over and come back to later
15:21:18 <ttx> I can give an update on the spec
15:21:37 <Zara> cool, please do! :)
15:22:22 <ttx> I updated the spec so that it's actually reviewable. The main idea is that we need some kind of roadmap to transition, which involves getting in touch with key users and getting them on-board
15:22:39 <ttx> and probably conservatively define a few blockers
15:23:08 <ttx> The trick is the balance - you don't want a bottomless pit of requests otherwise migratuon won't ever happen
15:23:33 <ttx> but you still want to know which are the main pain points before people are happy to migrate
15:24:05 <ttx> It's a tricky job and it needs someone sitting between the two groups (storyboard devs / target powerusers) to facilitate
15:24:14 <ttx> anteaya volunteered to drive that
15:24:19 <Zara> brilliant
15:24:41 <SotK> excellent!
15:24:54 * SotK would thank anteaya here but she isn't in channel
15:24:57 <ttx> None of the absolute options ("migrate now" and "migrate when everyone is happy") is actually doable
15:25:35 <ttx> so we need to identify a finite and conservative list of blockers and migrate when covered
15:26:03 <Zara> agreed.
15:26:03 <ttx> blockers could be = [ 'acls_for_security_bugs' ]
15:26:16 <ttx> we know we have that in the list already
15:26:43 <Zara> I can help keep an eye out for any woolly wording, though I think between everyone that'll be covered already :)
15:28:01 <anteaya> SotK: sorry I wasn't in channel earlier
15:28:06 <ttx> yeah, I think we all agree some amount of blockers need to be defined, and we need to engage with main users preventively
15:28:21 <ttx> the trick is to keep it reasonable and short-term
15:28:26 <SotK> anteaya: no worries, thanks for volunteering :)
15:28:34 <anteaya> sure
15:28:41 <Zara> yes, thank you
15:28:51 <anteaya> I think ttx is doing a good job outlining the pain points here
15:29:10 <anteaya> the bit that is hard is where is the line where we can say go
15:29:56 <ttx> which is why you need a facilitator
15:30:18 * anteaya puts on her facilitator hat
15:30:27 <anteaya> okay I'll will do my best
15:30:45 <anteaya> maybe I should create a story so I can keep notes on who I have talked to
15:31:00 <Zara> what does the facilitator hat look like, ooi?
15:31:09 <anteaya> and my summary of their issues and create stories of the issues that arise
15:31:15 <anteaya> very pretty
15:31:17 <anteaya> with feathers
15:31:25 <Zara> :)
15:31:27 <anteaya> :)
15:31:28 <ttx> hmm, hitting network issues again
15:32:01 <ttx> that is all I had. I'll probably update the wording to make it clearer the list should be short-term and finite
15:32:14 <SotK> I think that would be useful
15:32:32 <Zara> great, thank you :)
15:32:34 <ttx> waiting for more feedback. Then I suspect anteaya will fill up details on the implementation phase with however she would prefer to handle this
15:32:45 <ttx> I think first step is identifying target power users
15:33:13 <anteaya> #link https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/2000610
15:33:26 <ttx> also maybe raise the "bug tracker" discussion - do we really want to use then same system for bug tracking and task tracking ?
15:33:46 <ttx> as I outlined in the long intro to taht spec, those have slightly different users and constraints
15:33:54 <anteaya> please add tasks there so I can track them
15:34:01 <anteaya> and I will do the same
15:34:47 <Zara> okay
15:35:05 <ttx> alright, that's all I had
15:35:31 <Zara> thanks :) anyone have anything else to say?
15:35:37 <anteaya> ttx do you want to take 'raise the bug tracker discussion'?
15:35:54 <anteaya> ttx: https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/2000610
15:36:26 * anteaya delegates
15:37:04 <ttx> I'm still wondering if that would help or hinder the rest of the discussion
15:37:05 * krotscheck reads backscroll
15:37:19 <anteaya> ttx I'll leave it with you then
15:37:27 <anteaya> I'm leaning toward hinder myself
15:37:35 <ttx> yes, maybe add a "?" at the end of this one :)
15:37:41 <anteaya> but it is there should anyone feel strong enough to take it up
15:37:41 <Zara> I'm leaning toward hinder, fwiw
15:37:45 <SotK> me too
15:37:52 <ttx> yeah, it's a bit orthogonal
15:38:05 <ttx> we ahve the same problem with LP and would have the same problem with Maniphest
15:38:31 <ttx> It's "how community wants us task tracker" more than "how community wants to use StoryBoard"
15:38:40 <Zara> right, yeah, I'm in favour of not muddying the water then.
15:38:49 <SotK> +1
15:38:50 <ttx> s/wants us/wants to use
15:38:57 <anteaya> the water is muddy enough
15:39:02 <ttx> OK, let's punt on that one
15:39:26 <anteaya> remove it or leave it?
15:39:31 <anteaya> I can remove it
15:39:37 <ttx> I'll remove it
15:39:42 <anteaya> great
15:40:29 <anteaya> I have nothing more on this topic
15:40:35 <ttx> me neither
15:41:16 * SotK wonders if krotscheck has any thoughts after reading backscroll?
15:41:38 <krotscheck> StoryBoard needs to no longer live under the infra banner.
15:41:45 <krotscheck> And it needs more cores.
15:41:57 * persia thinks the best way to do that is to remove the infra banner
15:42:14 <krotscheck> And pretty much every argument about people camping on implementation bikeshedding that he made over a year ago, and then was made in Austin.
15:43:20 <ttx> that sure is technically doable imho (making it independent)
15:43:34 * SotK trusts that anteaya's facilitation will avoid such a big bikeshed this time
15:43:35 <krotscheck> ttx: I tried that. I was shot down.
15:43:45 <krotscheck> Repeatedly
15:43:59 <anteaya> do we want to take that on while trying to get storyboard to be the tool of choice?
15:44:14 <krotscheck> Fact is that storyboard has made the most progress when it was ignored.
15:44:20 <anteaya> I'm thinking moving it after would be easy while moving it during may make both directions fail
15:44:28 <SotK> anteaya: +1
15:44:36 <anteaya> well codethink didn't ignore it
15:44:54 <krotscheck> We've got two ways of accomplishing this. Either A) Get it out from under infra's governance patterns, or B) Get enough cores in place that StoryBoard can manage itself.
15:45:12 <krotscheck> anteaya: Ignored by infra.
15:46:13 <Zara> krotscheck: right now the governance isn't holding us up most of the time; often it's me trying to be careful about merging things when I don't feel confident in my knowledge. the number of cores is a problem
15:46:23 * SotK doesn't think infra's governence patterns are affecting storyboard much anymore, unless I'm misunderstanding the meaning
15:46:38 <krotscheck> Zara: What you're doing right now is WAY better than the way it used to be.
15:46:59 <krotscheck> SotK: There was a moment when I was informed, in no uncertain terms, that I needed at least two non-author core votes on every patch.
15:47:20 <krotscheck> Which, at the time, meant two-non-javascript-infra people
15:47:26 <krotscheck> Because I was the only core.
15:47:34 <SotK> krotscheck: yeah, I saw that in the logs, but we're out of that hole now
15:47:45 <SotK> I'd be against going back into that hole too
15:48:31 <krotscheck> Then other cores showed up for a while.
15:48:35 <krotscheck> And disappeared again.
15:48:47 <krotscheck> Anywa
15:48:50 <krotscheck> There's history
15:48:57 <Zara> yeah, I'm taking it as evidence that people saw how things weren't working and changed them. I'd be concerned about anything that implied we would go back to that (without increased resources, anyway)
15:49:49 <krotscheck> So what's to stop us from making it official? Pull StoryBoard out from under infra, let it do its own governance?
15:50:13 * krotscheck is worried that as long as it's vague and not defined, there will be questions.
15:50:19 <anteaya> just that I think that will derail the decision we need to make about an official task tracker for openstack
15:50:51 <krotscheck> anteaya: Sadly it's related. It gets at the heart of the decision of "who gets to say when storyboard is ready"
15:51:01 <anteaya> I disagree
15:51:48 <krotscheck> anteaya: I trust you'll take my experience on this project into account. This has happened before, and we need guarantees that it won't happen again.
15:51:56 <anteaya> of course
15:52:07 <anteaya> we have to examine history and learn from it, not dismiss it
15:52:14 <anteaya> I value your experience very much
15:52:44 <krotscheck> So here's the thing: Sotryboard will continue along with CodeThink's roadmap.
15:52:46 <anteaya> but my perspective in this moment is that in order to get to a point where storyboard can be migrated to we have to focus on that as a goal
15:52:55 <krotscheck> The TC is going to say: "Well, we want these other things"
15:53:04 <krotscheck> Infra is going to say something similar.
15:53:06 <anteaya> that is the direction that got us to this point of it being viable
15:53:14 <krotscheck> But neither the TC, nor Infra, will actually contribute resources.
15:53:36 <anteaya> well zara and SotK have already proven they want to build the things the tc and infra wants
15:53:49 <anteaya> they have implimented private stories since summit
15:54:03 <anteaya> and SotK has taken legacy code regarding teams and tested it
15:54:07 <krotscheck> Until [company] decides that they want [tracker] to be better at supporting [ubuntu releases for example].
15:54:18 <anteaya> and Zara has a proof of concept for gerrit integration
15:54:24 <krotscheck> This has happened with Launchpad, no?
15:54:39 <anteaya> I don't know launchpad's history
15:54:55 <Zara> it's true that needs might not always overlap, though; I think it's worth having something in the spec for what happens if things are added to the list that codethink isn't interested in funding.
15:55:18 <anteaya> what I do know is that Zara and SotK and Rob Taylor (CTO of codethink) want storyboard to be successful
15:55:37 <krotscheck> anteaya: As soon as you can get an official buy in from the actual contributors of the project that they're willing to do exactly what the TC wants, I'll back off.
15:55:49 <anteaya> Zara: let's see if we identify any issues that fit in that space first
15:56:04 <anteaya> krotscheck: I'm not asking you to back off
15:56:26 <anteaya> I want your input
15:56:34 <anteaya> but I decide what I do with my time
15:56:44 <anteaya> and I would like storyboard to succeed
15:56:50 <anteaya> and will do all I can to see that happen
15:57:15 <Zara> anteaya: agreed, and it's not helpful for me to worry about it yet. I think we're safe in assuming everyone is aware of the potential problems now, at least.
15:57:39 <anteaya> Zara: yes, and being open to input and addressing it when it is raised
15:57:49 <anteaya> Zara: like we do with anything else in our workflow
15:58:33 <Zara> :) we're nearly out of time, but #storyboard is always open
15:58:40 <Zara> last time we overran a little
15:58:46 <anteaya> thanks for chairing another great meeting Zara
15:59:27 <Zara> \o/
16:00:13 <Zara> #endmeeting