15:02:06 <Zara> #startmeeting storyboard
15:02:06 <openstack> Meeting started Wed Jun 22 15:02:06 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is Zara. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:02:07 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
15:02:09 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'storyboard'
15:02:12 <Zara> sorry we're a little late
15:02:27 <Zara> #topic Announcements
15:02:32 <Zara> none on agenda, but...
15:02:43 <Zara> review-dev is now talking to storyboard-dev
15:02:46 <SotK> \o/
15:02:46 <Zara> via zaro's gerrit plugin!
15:03:03 <Zara> I hope we can update it to do wonderful task status things
15:03:07 <Zara> AT SOME POINT
15:03:14 <SotK> thanks for that zaro, anteaya, pleia2, and others who were involved
15:03:17 <Zara> yes!
15:03:30 <anteaya> yay
15:03:36 <Zara> other things...
15:03:42 <Zara> the storyboard bugsquash is ongoing!
15:03:46 <anteaya> yay
15:03:51 <Zara> SotK has been squashing api bugs
15:04:04 <anteaya> yay
15:04:22 <Zara> I've been listing all the ui bugs that I keep forgetting to list
15:04:30 <Zara> will hopefully get round to actually *squashing* some
15:04:54 <Zara> any announcements I missed?
15:05:03 <anteaya> to clarify we have the channel for 48 hours
15:05:09 <anteaya> wednesday and thursday
15:05:16 <anteaya> so the bug squash is two days
15:05:29 <Zara> ohh, I had it down as 11:00 UTC to 11:00 UTC 22nd-23rd
15:05:32 <anteaya> but folks can spend as much time on it as they please
15:05:55 <anteaya> well if folks are around after 11:00 utc on the 23rd I'll still be around to help
15:06:02 <Zara> SURPRISE EXTENDED BUGSQUASH
15:06:05 <anteaya> I had it down as two days
15:06:06 <Zara> well it's business as usual for us anyway
15:06:08 <Zara> so that's fine
15:06:08 <anteaya> woooo
15:06:11 <anteaya> :)
15:06:13 <Zara> if nobody else has taken the channel
15:06:19 <Zara> betherly ^ I was wrong before!
15:06:21 <anteaya> I booked it for 2 days
15:06:54 <Zara> fine by me
15:07:22 <Zara> anything else?
15:07:38 <SotK> I don't know of anything
15:07:55 <Zara> #topic urgent items
15:08:10 <Zara> urgency is against the ethos of storyboard.
15:08:16 <Zara> but saying that, any urgent items?
15:08:47 <SotK> I got nothing
15:09:07 <Zara> #topic in-progress work
15:09:53 <Zara> I'm working on updating some of my old patches and things
15:10:35 <Zara> I rarely get a big block of time to focus long enough to see anything complex through, so we'll see how far I get.
15:11:14 <anteaya> storyboard and gerrit can talk to each other now, that was my in progress thing
15:11:22 <SotK> I'm looking at making comments editable, as the next part of the timeline rework adventure
15:11:27 <Zara> :)
15:11:31 <SotK> they already are editable, but not in the UI
15:11:36 <anteaya> patches still need to be merged for this to be puppeted but it is up on dev servers now
15:11:39 <anteaya> thanks zaro
15:11:58 <Zara> yeah, I think it's a good first step
15:12:06 <anteaya> oh I had thought that ensuring comments were not editable was important to the timeline
15:12:11 <anteaya> fungi: can you confirm this
15:12:26 <persia> SotK: is there an audit trail for comment edits?
15:12:33 <anteaya> in launchpad a comment can not be edited so it is valuable as a preservation of history
15:12:43 <SotK> persia: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/332208/ exists to provide that
15:12:54 <anteaya> it would disrupt the flow of conversation if someone could go back and edit a comment
15:12:54 <SotK> comments have been editable via the api the whole time
15:13:05 <Zara> the gerrit work is a good first step; I want it to update task statuses so hopefully can get to that next week
15:13:08 <persia> Then that should make it safe.
15:13:13 <Zara> unless anyone else volunteers
15:13:56 <anteaya> okay I did not know the api allowed a comment to be edited
15:14:04 <fungi> anteaya: i don't recall saying that comments shouldn't be editable, but if you know who did they would be the ones to ask about that concern
15:14:28 <fungi> i know lp (and most other bug trackers) don't allow you to change comments after the fact
15:14:28 <anteaya> fungi: oh okay so as far are you are concerned, being able to edit a comment is fine?
15:14:40 <fungi> i hadn't thought about it, to be honest
15:14:44 <anteaya> ah sorry
15:14:57 <anteaya> perhaps it was jeblair who said something about it
15:14:58 <fungi> i just assumed they weren't editable since that's not typical of most bug trackers
15:15:38 <fungi> it definitely alters some dynamics of teh system if people can go back and change what they said in the conversation (even if there is an audit trail to be able to find out they changed it, assuming you know to look)
15:16:03 <persia> From my perspective, it is important to know what was originally written, for all sorts of reasons, but that is not always the best presentation (especially when people comment angry or tired).
15:16:25 <SotK> I agree with persia
15:16:39 <fungi> i tend to view comments on a bug report as similar to a mailing list where people won't know to go back and reread what you said earlier to see if it changed, they tend to just assume conversations are append-only
15:16:50 <persia> For example, many forums have an edit feature, but make it clear that edit happened.
15:17:06 <anteaya> I'm in the append only camp
15:17:27 <anteaya> if a comment discussion is long and has a history I think the history needs to be preserved
15:17:39 <anteaya> folks get tired posting to mailing lists too
15:17:41 <persia> LP has only-admin-can-edit, which mostly means admin-deletes-iffensive-statements.
15:18:10 <anteaya> I'm not opposed to a storyboard admin being able to delete spam comments
15:18:44 <anteaya> I'm not in favour of someone posting something, kicking off a larger conversation, and then going back and changing the original comment
15:18:54 <persia> I still want an audit trail, but have no strong objection to ACLs for edit.
15:19:09 <SotK> my plan was/is to make it clear that a comment has been edited, when the edit happens
15:19:19 <SotK> and have all versions available to see in the UI
15:19:26 <fungi> i'd mostly be concerned about confusion if people who were following the original conversation have a divergent recollection/understanding from people who come later and catch up reading the altered comments, and then start talking past each other because they don't realize they're working from two different versions of a discussion
15:20:16 <persia> Good point.
15:20:21 <fungi> it might not be an issue for a story with a dozen comments, but when it has hundreds people won't necessarily know to go back and find the modified comments they'd previously read
15:20:40 <anteaya> or the audit trail
15:20:49 <persia> Especially if some people are participating.ostly be email notifications.
15:21:25 <fungi> so you may make it obvious to people who are just now reading those comments that they've been changed, but the people who read them before won't necessarily be aware (perhaps active notification via e-mail solves for some of that?)
15:22:01 <anteaya> I can see this creating a lot of frustration
15:22:05 <anteaya> rather than clarity
15:22:20 * SotK finds being unable to go back and fix formatting/bad wording really annoying too
15:22:32 <anteaya> well we have a preview button
15:22:35 <persia> Active notification by email might just confuse more: out-of-order typo fixes might appear to be reiterations.
15:22:39 <anteaya> and the link to the markdown guide
15:23:29 <persia> The above notwithstanding, I think I like "comments are editable only by API users" least if all the options.
15:24:30 <fungi> i find being unable to "fix" previous comments is a concern shared mostly by people who didn't spend decades relying mostly on usenet and mailing lists, where once you've said something it's out there forever. after a while you realize that your typos and errors are no worse than anyone else's, but you do hopefully think twice (and double-check) before you post something
15:25:25 <persia> Which is an increasing proportion of the population, sadly.
15:25:27 <fungi> that said, if there are stakeholders in storyboard for whom being able to treat it more like a web forum with mutable commentary is a desirable use case, i see no reason not to make it a configurable option
15:25:49 <anteaya> yeah expecting our users to constantly re-read entire timelines is unrealistic I think
15:26:22 <anteaya> I don't see bug reports as a forum
15:26:30 <fungi> so we could have storyboard.openstack.org configured not to allow non-admins to alter comments but someone else deploying a storyboard instance could enable mutable comments
15:26:50 <anteaya> a global config option perhaps
15:27:08 <persia> fungi: do you envision UI for the editing admins?
15:27:55 <jeblair> i don't recall if i ever said anything about editing comments, but if you asked me now, i would say i don't think they should be editable
15:28:02 <fungi> persia: hadn't really thought about it. honestly for sb.o.o we would probably get away fine with a "hide comment" feature, or even just an api call
15:28:36 <fungi> persia: in fact, if there was no feature for it at all, we would likely just use sql queries
15:28:51 <fungi> in the (hopefully very rare) cases where it becomes necessary
15:29:37 <anteaya> jeblair: oh sorry if I mis-remembered but thanks for sharing your thoughts on the topic now
15:30:13 <persia> I believe the current state to be "comments can only be edited via API".  This seems to be from long ago.  I do not have a strong opinion about who should edit, but I want to +1 an audit trail patch, or -1 it in favour of admin-only on the API and no UI.
15:30:28 <persia> The current situation seems the least good.
15:30:49 <SotK> I'm not sure its really worth the effort of making it configurable, if we don't want editable comments we may as well just remove the PUT endpoint for comments imo
15:30:49 <anteaya> can we disable comments can be edited via the api?
15:30:50 <jeblair> persia: ++
15:31:13 <anteaya> SotK: I'm in favour of that direction
15:31:29 <persia> SotK: is removal easier than admin-only?
15:32:14 <SotK> equal ease, less susceptible to accidentally being broken
15:33:00 <persia> If admins usually have DB access, then removal seems safer.
15:34:42 <Zara> the nova bugs team were keen on having the ability to edit, iirc
15:34:46 * Zara looks for etherpad
15:34:58 <Zara> https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/nova-bugs-team
15:35:08 <Zara> might be a bit old by now
15:35:10 * SotK also wonders why editing comments is any worse than editing the description of a story
15:35:27 <Zara> but that's how the task ended up listed in the first place, iirc
15:37:06 <anteaya> Zara: perhaps you and I can check with marcus from nova after the meeting
15:37:10 <anteaya> and get some clarity
15:37:17 <anteaya> if he is around this week
15:37:42 <anteaya> SotK: the description of a story isn't a conversation
15:38:02 <anteaya> like channel logs often I talk to you about something that I talked with someone else about yesterday
15:38:12 <anteaya> and link you to the channel logs so you can read the converstaion
15:38:13 <SotK> but it is still the thing which causes the conversation, and the thing the conversation is about
15:38:41 <anteaya> if the channel logs change between my recollection and your reading of them, you and I don't have the same starting point for our converstaion
15:40:06 <anteaya> Zara: I see it on line 110: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/nova-bugs-team
15:40:20 <anteaya> perhaps we can share the log of this meeting with marcus and then get his thoughts
15:40:36 <anteaya> SotK: I can't defend editing a story description
15:43:01 <Zara> I'd really rather have an example implementation in review, then if people find it causes problems, we change it
15:43:10 <SotK> I think that comment threads and references to previous conversations are two different kinds of discussion
15:43:32 <Zara> otherwise we'll just keep discussing it.
15:43:57 <SotK> anteaya: +1 for getting the thoughts of the nova bugs folk before making a decision
15:45:43 <SotK> I'll continue approaching a solution that allows history and such to be displayed until we make that decision, since I've already done most of the work anyway
15:46:24 <anteaya> okay fair enough
15:46:28 <anteaya> thanks
15:47:40 <Zara> np :)
15:47:58 <fungi> worth noting (not saying lp feature parity is a requirement) but you can edit bug descriptions in lp
15:48:02 <fungi> just not the comments after them
15:48:45 <anteaya> in a disagreement I would advocate lp feature parity would be the deciding factor
15:48:57 <anteaya> as the community already understands that behaviour
15:49:12 <Zara> my general approach is "wait and see what sotk does, and then cross the 'this doesn't match what people want' bridge if I have to", because he tends to be very good at guessing.
15:49:50 <anteaya> okay once we have a reference impliemenation for folks to look at we can gather more info
15:50:50 <Zara> okay, any other in-progress work?
15:51:00 <Zara> that ended up being a discussion topic :)
15:51:34 <SotK> xD
15:51:46 <Zara> #topic Open Discussion
15:51:49 <Zara> 10 mins, go for it!
15:51:51 <Zara> 9 mins now
15:51:59 <SotK> in other timeline news, there is now no pagination
15:52:04 <Zara> oh yeah!
15:52:06 <Zara> nice one
15:52:07 <SotK> and there is permalinking to comments
15:52:25 <Zara> yup
15:52:27 <SotK> and I sent patches for improving filtering a little
15:52:42 <Zara> ... whiiich I haven't got to yet
15:53:15 <Zara> well I glanced at the ui and I had some comments to make but I'll look a bit closer first.
15:53:38 <anteaya> yay no pagination
15:53:46 <anteaya> and yay permalinking
15:57:40 <anteaya> are we just waiting for the clock to wind down?
15:57:49 <SotK> I suspect so
15:58:09 <fungi> i'm happy to answer any questions i missed in these last two minutes if you need
15:58:09 <anteaya> okay well thanks for the meeting, see you in the sprint I have to go do something now
15:58:19 <anteaya> back in a few
15:58:29 <fungi> but yeah, see you all in the sprint!
15:58:31 <Zara> hehe, sure
15:58:39 <Zara> I don't think I have any questions right now
15:58:44 <Zara> will probably remember afterward
15:58:57 <Zara> and yeah, kept the meeting open in case someone wanted to discuss something
15:59:01 <Zara> but I am not that someone
15:59:12 <Zara> anyway, it's open discussion all day every day in #storyboard!
15:59:15 <Zara> hope to see you all there!
15:59:24 <Zara> and in #openstack-meeting for an extra day, apparently
15:59:25 <Zara> :P
15:59:30 <Zara> sorry about that again
15:59:38 <Zara> will end this meeting now
15:59:41 <Zara> #endmeeting