18:00:13 <amrith> #startmeeting swg 18:00:13 <openstack> Meeting started Thu Jul 14 18:00:13 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is amrith. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:00:15 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 18:00:17 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'swg' 18:00:24 <amrith> \./ 18:00:30 <gothicmindfood> we're missing an 'a' for 'swag' 18:00:35 <jroll> ohai 18:00:42 <dhellmann> o/ 18:00:46 <jroll> I pronounce it swag anyway, nbd :) 18:00:49 <amrith> Let's wait a couple of minutes for others who may come in. I'm just sending a courtesy ping on #openstack-swg 18:01:10 <amrith> hi dhellmann gothicmindfood jroll 18:01:20 <gothicmindfood> hi everyone! 18:01:21 <dims> o/ 18:01:28 <amrith> Some folks said they won't be able to attend the meeting; ttx, carol barrett, jay pipes (?), 18:01:28 <amrith> flaper87, ... 18:01:48 <annegentle> o/ 18:02:17 <annegentle> I think flaper87 said he couldn't 18:02:24 <annegentle> hey gothicmindfood ! 18:02:29 <gothicmindfood> hi annegentle :) 18:02:30 <amrith> that's correct annegentle 18:02:37 <amrith> let's get started ... 18:02:49 <amrith> Since some folks wanted to follow up on the meeting in scroll back/eavesdrop, I am going to 18:02:49 <amrith> pass the baton to Colette and request her to give a quick introduction to the concept of 18:02:49 <amrith> stewardship, servant leadership and the rationale for the SWG. We will get to our scheduled 18:02:49 <amrith> agenda after that. 18:02:59 <nikhil> o/ 18:03:00 <gothicmindfood> oh yay and thanks amrith :) 18:03:00 * amrith passes the baton to gothicmindfood 18:03:16 * mugsie lurks 18:03:19 * dhellmann hunts for the link to the agenda 18:03:19 * gothicmindfood takes the baton and copy/pastes 18:03:25 <gothicmindfood> For those who are interested in all of this excitement but *weren’t* at the Ann Arbor training, and who may have had limited time to participate in the discussion leading up to the creation of the group, I just wanted to bring you up to speed on what this group is/isn’t - 18:03:33 <amrith> sorry 18:03:34 <amrith> https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SWGMeeting#Agenda 18:03:35 <amrith> #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SWGMeeting#Agenda 18:03:50 <gothicmindfood> we’re a working group who specializes in subjects of leadership and stewardship for the OpenStack community as a whole. Stewardship for OpenStack touches a couple of distinct areas 18:04:08 <gothicmindfood> 1. Advising on governance/policy, especially for the TC and 2. Giving everyone in the community the resources and information they need to learn and grow as leaders 18:04:29 <gothicmindfood> All of this work will be advisory and supportive in nature - the TC itself will always deliberate, vote on and enforce governance matters, and elected leaders within the community (TC members, PTLs, etc.) will be able to leverage our knowledge base and expertise to help their projects become more sustainable and invest in project members. 18:04:47 <dhellmann> is anyone present today who wasn't able to make the training? 18:04:57 <gothicmindfood> dhellmann: dims is here! 18:05:00 <mugsie> o/ 18:05:03 <amrith> dhellmann, so far it is only dims and mugsie 18:05:06 <gothicmindfood> anyone else lurking? 18:05:07 <dhellmann> ok, cool 18:05:09 <gothicmindfood> ah cool 18:05:13 <dhellmann> yeah, I was looking for lurkers 18:05:22 <amrith> but there are several others who want to follow up on eavesdrop 18:05:26 <gothicmindfood> so - some of the things we might do: 18:05:27 * dims waves 18:05:44 <gothicmindfood> Provide feedback on governance changes the TC might be considering, especially as they relate to areas of consensus, vision, servant leadership, and sustainable stewardship of the community. 18:05:48 <gothicmindfood> Provide recommendations to the TC on governance changes that may help them improve their decision making and effectiveness, and the well being of the community. 18:05:50 <amrith> #chair gothicmindfood 18:05:50 <openstack> Current chairs: amrith gothicmindfood 18:05:51 <gothicmindfood> Provide recommendations for training and even trainings themselves for members of the OpenStack community who request them, on areas related to servant leadership, visioning, consensus decision making, crucial conversations, etc. 18:06:02 <gothicmindfood> some of the things we won't do: 18:06:13 <gothicmindfood> Tell anyone in the community how to behave or act on IRC or at conferences (that’s what the code of conduct is for) 18:06:15 <amrith> #chair gothicmindfood dhellmann 18:06:15 <openstack> Current chairs: amrith dhellmann gothicmindfood 18:06:16 <gothicmindfood> Require anyone in the community to take a class or participate in any activity we provide. 18:06:54 <gothicmindfood> If you weren’t at the training in Ann Arbor and some of these terms seem foreign/unknown - check some of these links out: https://www.zingtrain.com/content/power-visioning https://www.greenleaf.org/what-is-servant-leadership/, http://www.nonviolencetraining.org/Training/facilitation.htm 18:06:59 <gothicmindfood> Also, if you’d like to participate in leadership training sessions in the future (I’m still working on what we can offer and when), please let me know! I’d love to include you! 18:07:03 * gothicmindfood exhales 18:07:06 <annegentle> You might be getting there, but what about the actual "resources" part from a "do this work because it's important/priority/strategic" aspect? 18:07:24 <annegentle> my definition of resources may be off :) 18:07:35 <amrith> thx gothicmindfood 18:07:46 <dhellmann> #link https://www.zingtrain.com/content/power-visioning 18:07:46 <gothicmindfood> annegentle: I mean resources in terms of providing access to training (or, hassling the foundation to help us provide access to it) 18:07:52 <dhellmann> #link https://www.greenleaf.org/what-is-servant-leadership/ 18:07:56 <dhellmann> #link http://www.nonviolencetraining.org/Training/facilitation.htm 18:08:07 <gothicmindfood> dhellmann: thanks for doing the linkage there. I forgot my IRC meeting manners :) 18:08:17 <gothicmindfood> annegentle: how did you think about resources? 18:09:02 <annegentle> gothicmindfood: thinking of a specific example... just a sec. 18:09:10 * amrith looks to see if anyone has questions about gothicmidfood's introduction 18:09:37 <gothicmindfood> yeah - any others qs or general wonderment about why we're all here and what we're doing? 18:10:00 <annegentle> gothicmindfood: so let's say a project needs docs resources or the project will die. good stewardship looks for ways to responsibly plan for that resource. 18:10:00 <mugsie> so, would you see the out put of this group being guidelines, or harder hitting? 18:10:05 <annegentle> gothicmindfood: I may be out of scope here. 18:10:16 <mugsie> like charter modifications, or changes to to the foundation by laws 18:10:50 <dhellmann> mugsie : I expect we'd start with changes under openstack/governance, and we have some of those being written already (see item #3 on the agenda) 18:10:50 <mugsie> (proposed changes to obviously) 18:10:54 <gothicmindfood> annegentle: to me, wrangling those resources is the job of the docs leadership as well as the TC (based on how important they feel) and well, all of us. But I wouldn't look at the SWG as some kind of resource finagler 18:11:04 <annegentle> I'm thinking of wider stewardship like PTL training, makign sure projects have what they need to be successful. 18:11:16 <gothicmindfood> though we might be able to help folks in leadership positions learn and and plan and get better at asking for help themselves :) 18:11:16 <annegentle> Then when a PTL really is struggling, they know how to get help. 18:11:32 <gothicmindfood> annegentle: I mean, I hestitate to call us available PTL therapists 18:11:35 <annegentle> yeah, I don't see the swg as a trading market. 18:11:35 <gothicmindfood> but kinda 18:11:49 <dhellmann> so we would help with the "how" but not with the actual "resource acquisition" 18:11:50 <mugsie> dhellmann: yeah, I was wondering what the "documents" would be refering to 18:11:56 <amrith> mugsie, I expect that there will be some of those 18:11:57 <annegentle> gothicmindfood: heh that would work as well, and still helps with my sceanario of "what do I do if I can't get what I need" 18:12:00 <jroll> mugsie: another example is we might say "hi TC, openstack needs clearer expectations for projects written down somewhere" 18:12:12 <dhellmann> mugsie : right now a few etherpads where folks are working on drafts, but eventually patches to the governance repo 18:12:15 <dhellmann> jroll : ++ 18:12:51 <gothicmindfood> mugsie: I think we're all about identifying gaps and possible solutions, either at the behest of the community or the TC themselves, but it's the TC that will make final decisions around matters. We could potentially get specific with recommendations, though. 18:13:08 <amrith> we will have time to discuss the deliverables in detail in later items in the agenda. if you look at the agenda 18:13:09 <amrith> #agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SWGMeeting 18:13:18 <amrith> there's an etherpad on there for deliverables. 18:13:24 <amrith> you may want to start penning thoughts there 18:13:33 <amrith> now as we move ahead on the agenda ... 18:14:09 <nikhil> I think we can call/make this a platform for learning new/added skills around stewardship, ? 18:14:42 <gothicmindfood> amrith: we can haz real meeting time? 18:14:42 <amrith> lets get one procedural thing out of the way first 18:14:45 <amrith> 1. Establish schedule for weekly meeting 18:14:56 <dhellmann> #topic establish schedule for weekly meeting 18:14:58 <annegentle> nikhil: that's a decent framework yah 18:15:03 <amrith> I realize that this time is not convenient to everyone. We need to find a time that is. One 18:15:03 <amrith> thought I have is that we may be able to come to some consensus here but maybe that's hard 18:15:03 <amrith> given that some key players (like ttx) aren't here. 18:15:09 <amrith> Is the best thing to setup a doodle poll and come up with ideas? Any other proposals on how 18:15:09 <amrith> we can do this? 18:15:20 * gothicmindfood really thinks it's super important to have as many people here from the TC as possible, in a sane-schedule kinda way 18:15:20 <dhellmann> a doodle is usually a good start 18:15:30 <amrith> #action [amrith] setup a doodle 18:15:32 <annegentle> amrith: yeah go ahead and doodle 18:15:42 * gothicmindfood will fill out a doodle 18:15:52 <nikhil> amrith: may be create a review against irc-meetings and doodle there? 18:15:58 <amrith> ok, let's treat this procedural thing as done and just move right ahead to the thing we kind of started discussing. 18:16:00 <amrith> #topic Identify a list of short-term deliverables for the SWG 18:16:08 <gothicmindfood> nikhil: there already is one :) 18:16:16 <nikhil> ouch, my bad 18:16:22 <amrith> sorry for the interruption, but I think the conversation we started having re: resources is a good one 18:16:29 <annegentle> #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/338134/ 18:16:37 <annegentle> nikhil: no worries 18:16:45 <amrith> and maybe we should focus some time on getting a sense on where the edges of the deliverable should be. 18:16:50 <amrith> for example, re: resources. 18:17:20 <annegentle> amrith: I'm a terrible influence on agendas :) 18:17:37 <amrith> and, do we have a sense for what some of the things are that we think we can deliver in realtively short order? 18:17:37 <annegentle> #action look at the meeting review for best times to have this meeting 18:17:44 <dhellmann> as jroll started to point out, there's a fair amount of "gap analysis" we could do between what we're doing today and what we'd like to be doing in terms of leadership 18:17:46 <annegentle> #undo 18:17:54 <annegentle> #action [all] look at the meeting review for best times to have this meeting 18:18:03 <amrith> #chair annegentle 18:18:03 <openstack> Current chairs: amrith annegentle dhellmann gothicmindfood 18:18:09 <annegentle> hee thanks amrith 18:18:13 <annegentle> #undo 18:18:13 <openstack> Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Action object at 0x7f5bc00a24d0> 18:18:22 <annegentle> #undo 18:18:23 <openstack> Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Action object at 0x7f5bc0072cd0> 18:18:24 <dhellmann> annegentle : you can #action without being chair 18:18:28 <annegentle> #action [all] look at the meeting review for best times to have this meeting 18:18:34 <gothicmindfood> amrith: you're thinking deliverables as of mid August as a thing? 18:18:38 <gothicmindfood> also jroll ^^ ? 18:18:40 <fungi> (but you can't #undo without being a chair) 18:18:47 <amrith> gothicmindfood, yes 18:18:52 <annegentle> (yeah I was trying to rewrite it dhellmann derp :) ) 18:18:53 <dhellmann> fungi : ah, thanks 18:19:01 <gothicmindfood> and we said mid-August because feature-freeze for newton? 18:19:14 <annegentle> timing sounds about right as a starting point 18:19:21 <amrith> I'm hoping that we can get something to the TC in relatively short order, and some of those things may be things like an action plan for the next quarter or two. 18:19:26 <annegentle> and also to take action 18:19:32 <dhellmann> are our first deliverables more than the set of items we said we'd do on thursday in ann arbor? 18:19:41 <amrith> dhellmann ++ 18:19:41 <gothicmindfood> yup - just for kicks - when is the next TC election starting? 18:19:52 <jroll> http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html 18:19:57 <dhellmann> amrith : I can't tell if you're saying yes or no to my question 18:19:57 <jroll> oct 3 18:20:08 <amrith> dhellmann, yes 18:20:18 <dhellmann> ok 18:20:21 <amrith> I believe that we are already delivering some of those things 18:20:24 <mugsie> is there a list from the thursday? 18:20:25 <gothicmindfood> cool. So those are two important dates 18:20:28 <fungi> #link http://releases.openstack.org/newton/schedule.html 18:20:29 <amrith> such as the documents I know have already been written 18:20:44 <amrith> mugsie, here is a short list 18:20:45 <dhellmann> mugsie : not public, yet. this is all still in process, and will be coming. 18:20:51 <amrith> 1. propose a spec for the swg to the tc 18:20:56 <amrith> 2. propose an irc channel 18:21:00 <amrith> 3. propose a meeting 18:21:13 <amrith> 4. there were two documents (which are next on the agenda) that people have been writing 18:21:23 <amrith> those are the big ones that I recall 18:21:35 <gothicmindfood> and I had some questions that I asked the ZingTrain folks from us that I have answers on, too 18:21:38 <gothicmindfood> fwiw 18:21:39 <mugsie> dhellmann: my point is, that for others to understand context around a meeting, knowing them is useful 18:21:40 * amrith looks at old notes 18:22:12 <jroll> so from there, do we also want to make a list of demands^W recommendations for the TC, e.g. "agree on a shared vision for openstack", by aug15 or so? 18:22:12 <dhellmann> mugsie : yeah, I get that. the notes from the meeting were not approved for publication, yet, and some of the folks who would need to agree to that aren't present. it's not ideal. :-/ 18:22:27 <amrith> 5. some questions that gothicmindfood was going to ask of zingtrain 18:22:29 <mugsie> ah, OK. 18:22:50 <dhellmann> mugsie : we had at least an informal agreement to not publish so everyone felt free to speak their mind in the room. 18:22:56 <annegentle> this is useful to me too since I couldn't get to the third day 18:23:02 <annegentle> so thanks amrith for the list 18:23:21 <mugsie> yeah, I remember the ML convo (and I think it was a good idea for the record, just not right this minute :) ) 18:23:31 <gothicmindfood> jroll: I think both asking the TC for a vision of OpenStack, and a vision for the TC, as well as a review of their decision making model w/r/t consensus were all things on the table 18:23:37 <dhellmann> mugsie : yea 18:24:05 <dhellmann> amrith : is that the full todo list? 5 items? 18:24:22 <jroll> gothicmindfood: right, so we should agree to make that list, and figure out how/where to publish it 18:24:42 <amrith> dhellmann, looking 18:24:48 <gothicmindfood> jroll: ++ 18:24:57 <annegentle> gothicmindfood: those three would be awesome 18:25:11 <gothicmindfood> any other requests we'd like to make of the TC? Any favorite karaoke songs? 18:25:13 <amrith> 6. recommend that tc adopt a vision 18:25:39 <amrith> 7. if there is a future training, what is the format, what is the size? should there be a session at summit? 18:26:06 <gothicmindfood> amrith: I've got news on 7 (I put it at the end of the agenda) 18:26:07 <amrith> 8. how do we bridge group #1 to the next and subsequent groups 18:26:14 <gothicmindfood> oh, and 8, I guess. 18:26:20 * amrith apologises for not writing this list up ahead of time, should have guessed 18:26:42 <gothicmindfood> so here's a question: what is the mechanism by which we will make these recommendations to the TC? 18:26:45 <amrith> 9. learn from Z how our group related to others; rapport, speed to jump to next things, etc., 18:27:15 <amrith> 10. Whose role is it to write a vision for openstack? 18:27:22 <dhellmann> gothicmindfood : would we do anything different from the normal "write it up and add it to the agenda" process? 18:27:52 <jroll> dhellmann: as a resolution? 18:27:58 <gothicmindfood> dhellmann: you mean the TC meeting agenda? I think that's probably a good habit/tradition to get into - SWG members attend the TC meetings and make recommendations there? 18:28:07 <amrith> 11. How does one adopt BLC to openstack 18:28:21 <dhellmann> jroll : not everything needs to be a resolution, but some will. 18:28:25 <jroll> amrith: feels like you need an etherpad at this point 18:28:27 <amrith> 12. how did Z implement visioning 1.0 18:28:27 <jroll> :) 18:28:34 <amrith> jroll, yes 18:28:37 <fungi> some things could probably just go right into the ptg 18:28:38 <amrith> that sounds right 18:28:40 <dhellmann> for example, saying "we think the tc should establish a vision for what it does" isn't really a resolution 18:28:55 <jroll> dhellmann: right, so I'm wondering what the right place for that sort of thing is 18:28:57 <nikhil> ++ 18:28:58 <dhellmann> fungi : likely, yes 18:28:58 <dims> amrith : gothicmindfood : dhellmann : is there anything we will be doing to build more cooperation between projects and get projects to invest/engage in cross project efforts? 18:29:03 <amrith> 13. what is our (openstack's) triple bottom line 18:29:20 <amrith> 14. who are our customers? 18:29:21 <dhellmann> jroll : probably starting on the mailing list 18:29:33 <jroll> dhellmann: nod, ok 18:29:34 <dims> we seem to be going from top down (tc/vision etc) 18:29:41 <amrith> 15. Should the TC use Z's consensus model 18:29:54 <nikhil> dims: wasnt brought up afaict 18:29:57 <amrith> 16. difference between LIVE WITH IT and LIVE BY IT 18:30:00 <dhellmann> dims : a lot of the room felt that getting the tc's house in order was a first step to that 18:30:01 <gothicmindfood> amrith: is flooding me with all of the hard questions we brought up on thursday, now 18:30:18 <gothicmindfood> dims: I think that could be the result of the TC adopting some of our recommendations 18:30:26 <annegentle> dims: I think it's going to come out of the work 18:30:27 <dims> ack nikhil and dhellmann 18:30:27 <amrith> sorry folks, I'm almost done with the list, may as well get it here in IRC and then I can put it into an etherpad 18:30:28 <gothicmindfood> dims: but I don't see it as directly a part of the work the SWG does. 18:30:40 <amrith> 17. [monty] write rules we live by 18:30:49 <jroll> dims: imagine trying to get all of the individual contributors to agree on a shared vision :) 18:31:03 <amrith> 18. Z's consensus; when you don't agree provide an alternative. How do we do that? 18:31:03 <dims> jroll : haha 18:31:07 <dhellmann> to be clear, this group is not trying to take over any responsibility of the tc. we're trying to identify areas where the tc can change to improve it's output. 18:31:30 <annegentle> dhellmann: ++ 18:31:31 <dhellmann> and then make concrete proposals where possible 18:31:33 <amrith> 19. how does one reconcile vision and election 'plank' 18:31:43 <annegentle> plank meaning drop off point? 18:31:49 <dims> dhellmann : as part of tc, i'd like to explore ways to do those things i mentioned. so.. 18:31:55 <amrith> sorry, plank meaning election manifesto for a candidate 18:31:58 <dhellmann> annegentle : plank as in part of an election platform 18:32:07 * annegentle thinks in pirate-speak? 18:32:24 <dhellmann> dims : absolutely 18:32:28 <amrith> 20. propose the 'live by' clause 18:32:42 <amrith> 21. what's the OS training compact 18:33:03 <amrith> re: 21, how do we translate trainer and trainee? 18:33:07 <nikhil> principles too besides vision 18:33:14 <amrith> 22. how do we adopt BLC 18:33:31 <amrith> 23. whole ball of twine about improving communication 18:33:45 <dims> amrith you are overloading my brain :) 18:33:49 <annegentle> amrith: continuously :) 18:34:00 <amrith> dims, that's not possible. 18:34:06 <gothicmindfood> dims: now you know how we felt a couple weeks ago! ;) 18:34:14 <dims> lol gothicmindfood 18:34:21 <annegentle> what did gothicmindfood learn from zingtrain? :) 18:34:25 <amrith> 24. how do we know that we've succeeded? define success first; beware the gaming risk 18:34:44 <gothicmindfood> annegentle: I can get into what they said in response to our qs if you want! 18:35:02 <amrith> 25. next steps on training ... who should attend, where, face-to-face or virtual, rest of TC, before Barcelona or at Barcelona, 18:35:11 <annegentle> gothicmindfood: should probably make sure we're at the end of this list :) 18:35:12 <fungi> as an aside, expanding some of these acronyms will help those of us who need to search out their definitions in the zingtrain materials and similar documents 18:35:23 <amrith> 26. Do we need a "TC Passport" (someone please explain this term for the eavesdrop readers) 18:35:34 <annegentle> amrith: yeah I don't know that one 18:35:50 <amrith> the passport is the thing new employees are handed 18:35:51 <nikhil> fungi: I think once some pics are shared, it will be easier 18:35:54 <gothicmindfood> amrith: 'TC Passport' is in reference to the idea that a new hire at zingerman's gets a passport when they first start out 18:35:57 <amrith> it is their training regimen, progress report ... 18:36:00 <annegentle> BLC=Bottom Line Change 18:36:01 <dhellmann> zingerman's gives each new employee a "training passport" with the things in it they need to learn, and resources for where to learn them 18:36:06 <fungi> thanks annegentle! 18:36:06 <gothicmindfood> it summarizes what they're responsible for learning in their first 60 days 18:36:17 <gothicmindfood> and sets expectations 18:36:22 <annegentle> oh, neat 18:36:24 <amrith> 27. Add a specific point in the release cycle where project teams nominate extra-ATC's 18:36:24 * gothicmindfood got a copy of one before she left ann arbor, fyi 18:36:50 <amrith> 28. cross project release themes 18:36:53 <gothicmindfood> Bottom Line Change = a process that's designed to help implement any change that gets decided on in an organization 18:37:06 <fungi> #27 would be a huge help to electorate wrangling, btw 18:37:12 <gothicmindfood> basically, make it easier on everyone and create less friction during rollout 18:37:15 <amrith> 29. write first draft of vision, culture and system. 18:38:05 <amrith> 30. multiple PTL's; PTL for a feature across releases, ... (this will need context; people reading this in eavesdrop, don't freak out) 18:38:23 <nikhil> lol 18:38:33 <amrith> 31. Make contracts with positive acknowledgements; nit implicit assumption that all have received and will comply 18:38:42 <gothicmindfood> #30 is really just about how do we hand the baton/caretaking of a release before it goes to EOL 18:38:45 <amrith> 32. How to roll out notifications, is email the best thing? improve communication 18:38:56 <nikhil> may be rephrase #30 as different model of PTL to release mapping 18:39:01 <annegentle> fungi: oh that would 18:39:05 <dhellmann> fungi : I planned to do #27 around milestone 3 18:39:19 <fungi> dhellmann: thanks, that should be great 18:39:34 <amrith> 33. propose process for release theming; 3 goals, goal description, how to know you've met it, commitment, ... 18:39:42 <dhellmann> #action dhellmann add extra-atc date to release schedule for milestone 3 18:39:49 <fungi> dhellmann: any time earlier than "last minute" would make things easier on us ;) 18:39:52 <jroll> amrith: so I'm not sure if you're done with your list or not, but sounds like we should agree on a subset of the list to hack on over the next month 18:39:58 <amrith> 34. How do things get on the goal list? 18:40:06 <jroll> also timecheck, 20 minutes and two more things on the agenda 18:40:06 <amrith> jroll, 2 pages to go, 47 done 18:40:12 <dhellmann> fungi : m3 seemed like a good point for that sort of reflection 18:40:21 <amrith> jroll, all done 18:40:24 <amrith> thx for the time check 18:40:26 <jroll> woo 18:40:33 <amrith> so, now that I have a list; I'll make it an etherpad 18:40:47 <dhellmann> amrith, maybe just add it to https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/swg-short-list-deliverables 18:40:48 <amrith> #action convert 34 items into etherpad, share with group and review for completeness next meeting 18:40:54 <amrith> dhellmann, sure thing 18:41:23 <fungi> (note, that is an action item for someone named "convert" as far as the minutes are concerned) 18:41:37 <amrith> I think we've beaten #2 to death, is it time to move to #3? 18:41:39 <amrith> #undo 18:41:40 <openstack> Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Action object at 0x7f5bc0af5290> 18:41:46 <gothicmindfood> fungi: hahaha. Poor convert. 18:41:51 <amrith> #ction [amrith] convert 34 items into etherpad, share with group and review for completeness next meeting 18:42:12 <dhellmann> amrith : missing the a there 18:42:31 <amrith> a or an? :) 18:42:38 <fungi> a ction 18:42:39 <dhellmann> amrith : in "#ction" 18:42:43 <nikhil> #action [amrith] convert 34 items into etherpad, share with group and review for completeness next meeting 18:42:47 <amrith> ah 18:42:55 <amrith> #action [amrith] convert 34 items into etherpad, share with group and review for completeness next meeting 18:43:01 <amrith> thx dhellmann 18:43:19 <amrith> OK, ... 18:43:20 <dhellmann> so, documents? 18:43:23 <amrith> #topic ction [amrith] convert 34 items into etherpad, share with group and review for completeness next meeting 18:43:28 <amrith> dary 18:43:31 <amrith> darn 18:43:38 <amrith> #topic 3. Discuss any documents that are available for review 18:43:39 <dhellmann> #undo 18:43:40 <openstack> Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x7f5bbfd3e410> 18:43:45 <amrith> go ahead dhellmann 18:43:46 <dhellmann> hah 18:43:49 <amrith> all yours 18:43:50 <nikhil> :D 18:43:51 <annegentle> heh 18:43:58 * jroll hands amrith a coffee 18:44:08 * amrith gulps scotch 18:44:12 <annegentle> so I saw the monty one, any others? 18:44:14 * gothicmindfood steals the coffee from amrith 18:44:18 <dhellmann> I started some notes on goals (I forget which # that was from the list) 18:44:21 <dhellmann> #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/ocata-tc-goals 18:44:36 <annegentle> specifically, [monty] write rules we live by 18:44:45 <dhellmann> I've had a few folks read through it and leave comments, but it's not quite in a form where it's ready to be submitted to the tc 18:44:51 <gothicmindfood> annegentle: oooh, got a link since mordred is away (I think)? 18:45:01 <annegentle> gothicmindfood: looking, just a sec 18:45:12 <dhellmann> I'm waiting for the list of principles, but since mordred's working on that and he's not here I don't know we want to publish that link or not 18:45:20 <dhellmann> I don't know if he considers it ready 18:45:22 <amrith> #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/1nPlcXyI76 18:45:26 <amrith> that's monty's link 18:45:34 <dhellmann> ok, well, I guess we've published it 18:45:51 <jroll> :| 18:45:53 <amrith> sorry dhellmann didn't see that 18:45:55 <dhellmann> for the record, and for the future, if I'm ever working on a draft of something and have not yet shared it publicly, please do not share it for me 18:46:19 <gothicmindfood> sorry mordred ^^ 18:46:30 <dims> is anyone aware of the term "Apache Way" from ASF? http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#philosophy 18:46:34 <amrith> yup, sorry mordred (who isn't here) 18:46:46 <annegentle> thanks amrith 18:46:58 <dhellmann> these can be sensitive topics, and as we discussed sometime's it's nice to have a little breathing space to talk about things privately before they become public 18:46:59 <annegentle> dims: yeah 18:47:01 <nikhil> just take that and put it into another etherpad 18:47:06 <nikhil> delete contents of this one 18:47:07 <fungi> the " 18:47:16 <jroll> nikhil: etherpad stores history though 18:47:18 <nikhil> I think people won't mind if it's going to be public later 18:47:18 * fungi has a terribly-located enter key 18:47:21 <dims> annegentle : brings back old memories :) 18:47:24 <nikhil> jroll: limited history 18:47:25 <annegentle> heh 18:47:34 <fungi> the "apache way" seems a bit in the same vein as our "three opens" 18:47:44 <fungi> at least from a creed standpoint 18:47:46 <annegentle> fungi: four right? 18:48:01 <nikhil> people deserve privacy or space to think 18:48:01 <dims> did we drop one? :) 18:48:06 <fungi> four, yes ;) 18:48:14 <annegentle> hee dims 18:48:23 <dims> hahaha 18:49:04 <dhellmann> anyway, if you do have feedback about the link I posted then please leave it on the etherpad. I'll be working on turning that into a governance patch of some sort after we've discussed the principles list and I have something to link to in what I write up 18:49:20 * nikhil said that before reading dhellmann 's comment. glad to be on same page. 18:49:38 <dims> ack dhellmann 18:49:53 <dims> i have to read logs for this meeting a few times... 18:50:08 <mugsie> dims: you and me both 18:50:23 <annegentle> dhellmann: deadline? 18:50:28 <dhellmann> yeah, I think another good early step for us is to turn that list of todos into a more documented plan 18:50:42 <dhellmann> annegentle : I'm going to wait for mordred's patch, and I'm traveling next week, so I'm not really sure 18:50:55 <annegentle> dhellmann: ok, that's fine, just wondered how long I have to slice it in 18:51:01 <annegentle> sounds like a week at least 18:51:17 <dhellmann> oh, yeah, sorry, I thought you were asking me for my deadline for proposing 18:51:23 <dhellmann> yeah, at least a week 18:52:10 <gothicmindfood> dhellmann: agreed. Some of those goals are interlocked and also a bit vague. So we should have some milestones set up and some 'did we achieve this?' questions answered. 18:52:38 <annegentle> dhellmann: sorry, I meant I need a deadline :) 18:53:03 <gothicmindfood> dhellmann: (I was referencing amrith 's long list, not your Ocata etherpad, btw) 18:53:12 <dhellmann> annegentle : I won't be doing anything with that document before 25 july 18:53:22 <dhellmann> gothicmindfood : it took me a second, but I worked that out 18:53:58 <dhellmann> we're almost out of time, what's up next? 18:54:11 <jroll> update from colette? 18:54:14 <dhellmann> gothicmindfood you had a training update? 18:54:26 <dhellmann> #topic Updates on next leadership training for TC @ ZingTrain 18:54:34 <gothicmindfood> dhellmann: beat me to it! 18:54:48 <gothicmindfood> k - so I've spoken with the 5 TC members that were unable to attend the last training 18:55:05 <gothicmindfood> and of the two times in Sept that looked good for ZingTrain, September 14-16 seemed more reasonable to them 18:55:28 <dhellmann> do we have folks signed up to go through again for continuity? 18:55:29 <gothicmindfood> 2 folks in particular needed to be able to attend the infra sprint the next week in Germany 18:55:48 <gothicmindfood> dhellmann: I have not posted a sign up sheet because I haven't gotten confirmation from the Foundation that they will pay for it 18:55:51 <gothicmindfood> yet 18:55:55 <dhellmann> k 18:55:56 <gothicmindfood> having a meeting with some folks next week on that 18:56:11 <gothicmindfood> also, re: Barcelona 18:56:29 <amrith> gothicmindfood, this is sept 14 to 16 in ann arbor? 18:56:41 <gothicmindfood> I proposed a panel discussion with myself, ttx, mordred and amrith moderating, with an extra seat available potentially, for someone from ZingTrain to participate in. 18:56:51 <gothicmindfood> need confirmation from the Foundation that they can support that (or not) next week as well 18:56:59 <gothicmindfood> amrith: yes, it'd be sept 14-16 in Ann Arbor 18:57:09 <gothicmindfood> if we can get the finances rolling on it 18:58:08 <gothicmindfood> the panel in barcelona is largely set to discuss the purpose of the SWG with the community, talk about some of the things the TC might be doing as a result of SWG recommendations, and also to let the community ask questions about the whole thing 18:58:17 <amrith> oops, time check 18:58:18 <amrith> 2m to go 18:58:21 <gothicmindfood> yup 18:58:29 <gothicmindfood> amrith: those are my updates, for that topic :) 18:58:44 <dhellmann> sounds good, thanks, gothicmindfood 18:58:48 <gothicmindfood> #topic Open Discussion 18:59:28 <amrith> OK, hearing none ... 18:59:32 <amrith> I will summarize the meeting in an email with action items. 18:59:32 <amrith> Thx to gothicmidfood and dhellmann for the resources. 18:59:40 <amrith> also make the list and put it into the etherpad. 18:59:50 <fungi> apparently the "three opens" predates our four 18:59:55 <amrith> any final thoughts before we run out of time ... 18:59:55 <fungi> #link https://web.archive.org/web/20100212211814/http://blog.openwetware.org/scienceintheopen/2009/04/02/open-data-open-source-open-process-open-research/ 19:00:16 <dhellmann> fungi : 4 is one more than 3, therefore clearly superior 19:00:22 <amrith> ok, thanks all for attending 19:00:30 <gothicmindfood> thanks amrith ! 19:00:34 <nikhil> thanks! 19:00:36 <amrith> #endmeeting