18:00:54 #startmeeting tc 18:00:54 Meeting started Tue Mar 11 18:00:54 2025 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is gouthamr. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:00:54 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 18:00:54 The meeting name has been set to 'tc' 18:01:11 Welcome to the weekly meeting of the OpenStack Technical Committee. A reminder that this meeting is held under the OpenInfra Code of Conduct available at https://openinfra.dev/legal/code-of-conduct. 18:01:18 Today's meeting agenda can be found at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TechnicalCommittee 18:01:24 #topic Roll Call 18:01:35 o/ 18:01:38 o/ 18:02:14 o/ 18:02:46 spotz[m]: gtema: you two have to tell us how your recent experience has been with matrix :) have you been having to do anything wonky to stay bridged? 18:02:48 \o 18:03:06 gouthamr: the bridge doesn't go away until end of this month aiui 18:03:26 nope, for me everything is smooth. At least I haven't noticed any problems myself 18:03:46 i didn't know it was going away for certain :( 18:03:50 #link https://matrix.org/blog/2025/02/crossroads/ 18:03:59 gouthamr: It isn't, but it seems likely 18:04:09 and if it happens wouldn't happen until end of this moneth 18:04:21 i haven't seen any updates as to how far along they are in their funding goals 18:04:52 ++ hope someone is making a sustainable plan to keep it going 18:05:09 I use it via Element and really enjoy it as it serves as a bouncer. If channels are encrypted sometimes keys get out of whack but that might be element 18:05:52 courtesy-ping: mnasdaika frickler 18:06:11 noted absence: c a r d o e, n o o n e d e a d p u n k 18:07:31 ack thanks gtema spotz[m] 18:07:54 lets get started 18:07:57 #topic Last Week's AIs 18:08:27 1) follow up on electoral roll generation to include TC repos 18:08:38 #link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/election/+/941612 18:09:17 thanks for testing this fungi! will task slaweq with reviewing/merging this now 18:10:39 2) Track EOL transition patches to completion (W, X, Y) 18:10:39 #link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/releases/+/941458 18:10:39 #link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/releases/+/942201 18:10:39 #link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/releases/+/942218 18:11:05 ^ these still look good 18:11:26 our deadline to merge is March 21st 18:11:38 so in 10 days.. 18:12:17 3) OpenStack Charms PTL concerns 18:12:17 #link https://review.opendev.org/c/openstack/governance/+/943254 18:12:42 ^ bauzas thanks for posting your comment there, and for everyone else looking and adding +1s 18:12:59 np 18:13:49 i chatted with billy_olsen at SCaLE about the state of things with Charms and Sunbeam - we assumed right that Charms is in "maintenance mode" - yet with a lot of activity because there are existing deployments that rely on it 18:15:42 jamespage was a good bridge with the community, and specifically the TC 18:16:02 Billy is an engineering manager at Canonical for anyone who doesn’t know him 18:16:04 while others are pretty active elsewhere, we may not have the same level of engagement, and that's something i don't know what to do about 18:17:01 imho - do nothing special about it. Time passes, things die out 18:17:20 it's currently not a huge concern, we don't really need the charms team to be doing anything.. except ofcourse prevent us from scurrying to find a PTL each release 18:17:29 yeah 18:18:27 I think it was late nomination instead of finding PTL 18:18:29 and sunbeam is still thoroughly active and being developed, right? 18:18:42 yes, sunbeam is the present and future 18:18:44 we had PTL volunteer but did not match the election timing 18:18:47 true 18:19:14 i'll go ahead and merge the appointment change if there are no objections, and hope that freyes / gboutry / billy_olsen can be reached out to and expected to respond when we have concerns 18:19:27 getting all nomination on time is hard thing but if we have volunteer there during leaderlees projects discussion I think it is ok 18:20:06 if we no PTL/leaders in election or after election then it is more concern and TC need to be involved for the next step 18:20:14 *there is no PTL 18:20:34 ack 18:20:50 next AI: 18:20:56 4) Send PTLs a reminder about their role and responsibilities 18:21:04 ^ i am working on this 18:21:41 i'll update you folks in the next week's meeting 18:21:54 sorry got distracted o/ 18:21:57 5) add discussion about monthly video meetings to PTG agenda 18:22:20 ^ haha, you got here just in time 18:22:23 #link https://etherpad.opendev.org/p/apr2025-ptg-os-tc 18:22:49 lets debate away, i'll share more updates regarding the PTG when the topic comes 18:23:04 that's all the AIs i was tracking, was anyone else working on anything else? 18:23:43 Not TC related per say but I did talk to Billy about OutreChy 18:25:11 am hoping there's some good news? :) or hope of some? 18:25:18 #link https://www.outreachy.org/communities/cfp/openstack/ 18:25:51 ^ thanks to our generous sponsors this time around, we have three Outreachy proposals - we'll hopefully pick up at least one intern for one of these projects 18:26:01 I’d say hope maybe not this cohort but next. Also if anyone would like to mentor a college student let me know 18:26:12 ++ thank you spotz[m] 18:26:36 Welcome 18:26:50 alright, lets move on 18:26:53 #link TC Chair Announcement, a call for vice-chair/s 18:27:28 the chair nomination period is now over, and with all the humility i can muster, i'd like to thank you for your confidence in my work :) 18:28:16 'course i've passed around enough brickbats and 2x4s so use 'em 18:28:19 Congrats! 18:28:34 which means, its time to nominate a vice-chair 18:29:03 Not it:) 18:29:04 as with the last time, i'm hoping to pass the baton over to someone who'd like to be a future chair 18:29:41 haha.. would anyone like to volunteer? 18:30:04 "I'm gone, I'm dead" for the vice-chair seat, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HILcYXf8yqc for context 18:30:31 We could just nominate someone not here:) 18:30:55 in the recent past, frickler and noonedeadpunk have been vice-chairs and they've both led meetings and taken on specific areas that they've shepherded to completion 18:31:40 bauzas: lol, apt 18:34:46 alright, lets talk about this between meetings and finalize 18:35:00 #topic OpenInfra Days NA Recap 18:35:44 gouthamr: you'd still need to make a patch to record you chair status I think? 18:36:02 ^ ++ will propose it 18:36:56 spotz[m] mnasiadka and I were at OpenInfra Days, with a lot of familiar faces: JayF, TheJulia, jbryce, ildikov diablo_rojo_phone and many others.. 18:36:56 i am trying to think about feedback that the TC could take from the gathering and the discussions 18:37:57 for one, there was a OpenInfra Board meeting today that i couldn't attend, but, we got a preview of the discussion with the "OpenInfra Leadership Meet & Greet" that spotz[m] organized 18:38:01 3 new contributor got patches in? 18:38:20 gouthamr: I don't know how actionable it is for TC; but a lot of people indicated that an alternate (additional) communication platform for operators/users to get support could be helpful. I think folks at the foundation are looking into this. 18:38:59 ++ i think its something we can participate in, and share opinions on.. since we define the "Project Team Guide (lines)" 18:39:18 Thejulia is already working on that 18:39:21 Maybe not directly part of the TC, but we as a wider community likely need start coordinating our messaging and outreach to conferences. Futhermore, as JayF noted, there is a need for other centralized communication channels and I've put that on aprice's plate as an evil chair of the board.^(TM) 18:39:51 The undercurrent/context for the ask was basically: if we don't do something soon, someone will make an unofficial discord which *nobody* wants :) 18:40:05 yes, that 18:40:13 probably a good time to remind people opendev has a matrix homeserver 18:40:16 JayF: that is a most excellent summary! 18:40:19 zuul and starlginx both use it 18:40:47 people already ask questions on stackexchange, reddit, slack, etc. first i've heard of it, but sounds like a proposal to add an openstack discord channel too? 18:41:04 fungi: something **to prevent** a discord from being created :) 18:41:07 Yes, specifically we need something which crosses over into acceptable usage context of business. i.e. IRC and similarly matrix is being viewed in a similar light where some organizations have okayed some other solutions. 18:41:10 fungi: e.g. a semi-official slack 18:41:32 That community<->business crossover being critical to usage 18:41:33 clarkb: it is indeed a good time and we should think announcing it as something comparable to the irc 18:41:35 so through our fourth open into the bin? 18:41:47 *throw 18:41:52 The *intent* is to not replace, but have something which also compliments 18:41:56 note that adding more "official" channels in the past hasn't stopped users from asking questions in the places they frequent instead, it's merely left us with more unmaintained infrastructure we eventually end up tearing down again (forum.openstack.org, ask.openstack.org, and so on) 18:42:38 splitting the shrinking community isn't helpful IMO 18:42:48 the real challenge hasn't been with giving users somewhere to ask questions, but getting people with answers to pay attention 18:42:48 frickler: it seems to me like it makes the community more open to expand the communication venues to allow an alternative (not requirement) that would be accessible to them when others would not, but I can see the perspective where a non-OSS tool could be seen as a negative. 18:42:51 I think we need to broadcast or streamlines existing but central communication channels instead of creating more and more 18:42:53 frickler: ++ 18:43:09 Indeed, they don't know what they don't know as well. But there is a legitimate faction which cannot use IRC today in their workplaces under any circumstances. 18:43:32 gmann: that's directly counter to the feedback from operators in the room at the OpenInfra Days, which is what I'm trying to communicate. I obviously <3 IRC and wish we could get everyone here, but I can't control corporate firewalls. 18:43:48 yeah, maybe we can think of slack instead of IRC? I mean any channel is ok but having central one is good 18:44:08 slack is def nonfree, or is it? 18:44:12 could an OpenInfra IRC webchat help them ? 18:44:16 There are different levels 18:44:17 yeah, I agree Slack would be a good alternative as a second place. I'd be in that network if so. 18:44:17 just remember that if we say "here's slack" then people who prefer discord are just going to continue making discord channels to ask questions in 18:44:21 JayF: yeah, i understand. we faced same challenges on ML too 18:44:28 slack-- 18:44:31 (to me) 18:44:41 also, to repeat, we have an opendev.org matrix homeserver 18:44:43 bauzas: one operator explicitly noted loading irccloud or a known irc webapp causes their computer to lockdown as if it has been compromised 18:44:51 proprietary locked-down 18:45:18 i get the impression the argument against matrix is "but users have never heard of it, and they don't care what's open source and what isn't so slack will be the better choice" 18:45:18 fungi - actually it is not even necessary to have a homeserver to have public matrix rooms 18:45:22 gmann: we're also facing increasing number of complaints and observations that emails are quite literally just disappearing into the ether 18:45:36 gtema: right, it's not necessary, just saying we have one anyway 18:45:40 so, we simply can no longer directly rely upon it the way we once did as well. 18:46:01 I wouldn’t mind our own matrix server but understand the appeal of slack 18:46:11 do people know our logs are open ? 18:46:14 agree, we thought it will be more streamline when we merged the MLs but it did not go well. I am thinking separate ML for operator/users can still be worth to keep it? 18:46:24 spotz[m]: there already is one, just saying again 18:46:29 at least they can readonly our discussions 18:46:35 fungi: several as I understand it 18:46:43 sorry, lost of track of time after metal tube time travel... 18:46:49 i mean the openinfra foundation pays for a matrix homeserver already 18:46:54 mnasiadka: Excellent fun isen't it! 18:46:56 o/ welcome back, mnasiadka 18:47:02 fungi: worded it wrong I should have said using that one 18:47:26 I would rather be the places operators can be, even if it's a less-ideal place, than have those operators have to interact with the community read-only or only on personal time. I agree with the idea we should *not* have such alternate tools become requirements since they are non-free. 18:47:55 But there are folks in the community (me, and others who volunteered IRL) who would help in such a slack community if it existed. 18:48:02 the openstack vmt has a channel on the opendev matrix homeserver, though we've ended up relying on irc instead because most of the current vmt members are always on irc anyway 18:48:12 +1, if we could bridge slack, discord and irc, the matrix homeserver that opendev hosts can be super powerful 18:48:47 We are matrix OFTC bridged. Slack to irc bridge has been dead for years 18:48:55 JayF: there apparently already is an openstack slack community, from what i understand (i've never joined it) 18:48:56 JayF: likewise, and the reality is we need to meet folks in the middle ground as well. 18:48:57 if IRC remains the main, I'm fine 18:49:15 fungi: it is non-public community organizer slack, from the conversations I had at OIDays. 18:49:33 got it 18:49:41 I think its always hard to bring developer and operator in same communication channel. either of them needs to join their preferred one 18:49:45 JayF: fungi: and a scientific sig has their own as well. We already have fracturing occuring there. 18:49:49 #link https://lists.openinfra.org/archives/list/community@lists.openinfra.org/message/C4G2X5QLAZZ5MDOPDZ2LULM4O4Z76LF5/ (OpenInfra Global Slack community) 18:49:58 it does not matter we keep IRC or choose other channel 18:50:13 gmann: yep, that's why just a handful of ambassadors in the place the operators can more easily go is ideal imo 18:50:49 i'm mainly aware of the openstack slack community because people forward me questions that users/operators are asking in there from time to time 18:50:53 TheJulia: JayF was there any feedback or talk if we bring separate ML for operator then it will improve the things? 18:51:01 gouthamr: that requires an @openstack.org email address to signup. 18:51:24 oh, no 18:51:33 i am on it with an @gmail address 18:51:36 Either way, I suspect we might need to move on given the time, I don't know TC agenda but this has been circled around for a while 18:51:47 gouthamr: I literally just tried to join; got that error. So config changed at some point. 18:51:54 at least community developer who are used to lot of mails and tag filter, we can keep eyes on the separate ML and operator also does not have huge developer centric traffic 18:51:57 gmann: no, basically we were able to identify through discussion of multiple emails where people just didn't get posts through to the list or folks just didn't even get an emails which were sent, which from what we can tell is email providers eating messages 18:52:14 * JayF has ^ that problem as described by Julia and is constantly marking things as not-junk 18:52:20 gmann: we killed the openstack-operators ML, and there was a bit of discussion around that 18:52:22 ohk 18:52:44 JayF: even folks were able to confirm they never got stuff marked as junk. Just *never got it* when others in the room were able to go "yes, got that!" 18:52:44 fwiw, I'm on wechat too :) 18:52:48 heh 18:52:56 so the community is already fragmented :) 18:53:21 Anyway, As time moves forward, we should *expect* vendors for things like email to filter more and more like a social media provider 18:53:31 I was also there in wechat during shanghai summit but lost that in my new phone :) 18:53:42 gmann: mainly operators stating that they either felt shy to use openstack-discuss, or that it was high traffic developer content - irrelevant to them, and that they didn't get enough engagement from operators when they posted questions 18:54:21 yeah, openstack-discuss is too much developers discussion email and easy to get ignored by them 18:54:25 Human's perceptions are easy to control through algorithms, and it will continue to progress to email. 18:54:34 we can adjust the mailing list settings to more obtrusively cater to modern freemail provider expectations, but that will alter the experience dramatically (messages will start coming from the list address, will reroute replies, will need to strip a lot of inbound headers, and so on) 18:55:08 fungi: I don't think it is necessarilly that, I think this is a matter of providers filtering content post-receipt 18:55:13 Well, there's a lot of content on reddit r/openstack - looks like a lot of operators found their space 18:55:25 mnasiadka: that was raised in social media context, that is exceptionally active 18:56:06 mnasiadka: my earlier point exactly. people who want to ask questions on reddit are going to ask them there anyway, even if they're told there's a slack they can use, it's not that they dislike irc and mailing lists, it's that they prefer reddit 18:56:30 I even found solutions to kolla-ansible bugs on reddit (that have not been raised on launchpad) :-) 18:56:46 mnasiadka: impressive! 18:57:04 fungi: the main preference I think the slack would cater to is more ... internal IT preference to block social media or alternative chat apps; whereas getting an additional slack community is a lower bar. This is one of the big driving factors for me; my downstream operators have zero chance of upstream chat during work unless it's slack. (I don't think that's unique?) 18:57:20 that's like when i find security vulnerabilities in red hat's bug tracker that haven't been reported upstream ;) granted that hasn't happened again for a while thankfully 18:57:26 JayF: even matrix via a webclient wouldn't be allowed? 18:57:29 I don't think we can try to ,,control'' the fragmentation, but I understand that for some people IRC is problematic (although maybe using Matrix and OFTC bridge is less problematic firewall-wise) 18:57:40 clarkb: not at all; would be blocked as unauthorized chat 18:57:49 I feel like if the problem boils down to corporate policy has extremely strict rules on what https sites you can access that isn't our problem to solve... 18:57:59 interesting that connecting to an external slack community would be allowed as authorized 18:58:03 No, but I'd rather try to solve it and engage those operators than leave them in the cold. 18:58:08 And I'm not convinced that OpenInfra should direct people to Slack... 18:58:22 please NOOOOOO 18:58:26 NOOOOOO to Slac 18:58:30 Just because it's not our problem doesn't mean we can't help solve it. We certainly have enough BMC-bug-workarond code in Ironic to prove that. 18:58:33 *k 18:58:35 guys 18:58:36 folks 18:58:43 sorry to break the discussion here, there were other takeaways too that might be useful to the TC: 18:58:43 * Our support of the OpenInfra Foundation's transition into the Linux Foundation was significant, and we'll hear more about how this is going soon (TheJulia will update us, soon) 18:58:43 * There are going to be discussions on two topics at the PTG, VMWare --> OpenStack, and OpenStack's support for AI workloads.. there was significant interest in both of these expressed throughout OpenInfra NA.. so, as TC we should join these efforts and see how the project maintainers can play a role 18:59:01 again, this is proprietary and vendor lockdown, the exact opposite of what we promote 19:00:01 gouthamr: as unfortunately some SME for AI workloads in Nova, I can help :( 19:00:19 i'm glad to see opinions on the communication platform being shared, and brainstormed - shows that we know the problem and care enough to fix it.. :D lets wait to see what aprice and folks come up with, while also making sure we call out all the concerns 19:00:23 What individuals use is up to their capabilities and organizations. We have to meet folks in the middle. If we don't, we loose engagement. We might not like all solutions, and we're not mandating anything, we're trying to find paths which enables engagement in a variety of cases. You don't have to join it, it would never be mandatory or expected as mandatory, but we do need to take a "pick 3" sort of approach to meet folks in 19:00:23 the middle without being in everything, and if we're in everything, we're effectively in nothing. 19:00:28 * bauzas is already burned downstream, but I can also burn myself upstream with AI buzzword :) 19:00:51 "if we're in everything, we're effectively in nothing" 19:00:55 the best engagement is F2F :) 19:01:09 everything else is unfortunately less powerful 19:01:14 * gouthamr TheJulia: do you podcast? 19:01:38 gouthamr: she's been a guest on mine https://podcast.gr-oss.io/7-oss-foundations 19:01:52 gouthamr: not really, it is complicated. I'll do one-offs. 19:01:55 ^ nice :) 19:02:21 alright, we're at the hour.. but don't let that stop you from chatting here 19:02:25 I agree that its tough to have a single solution that works for everyone. That said we (opendev) provide tooling/support/etc for 4 primarily communications protocols that are all indepdnent of one another (IRC, Matrix, Email, and Webrtc) 19:02:30 Anyway, I can't speak of the board meeting today, but if your interested the agenda is public. 19:02:45 precisely for this reason. Sometimes you need different tools. I guess whereI'm sitting I feel like we do a pretty good job of having a wide variety of options 19:02:56 and if that still sin't enough I would ask peopel to meet us in the middle we are already there 19:03:14 caving to our principals nad just using slack isn't meeting anyone in the middle. Thats going about as far as you can to theo ther side 19:03:17 TheJulia: ack, i'm hoping we can hear more about it when its available to be shared widely 19:03:45 gouthamr: it is a process, that is for sure. :) 19:04:14 there wasn't much else on the agenda that was burning enough to be brought up today.. so i'll close this meeting 19:04:21 does anyone else have anything to the minutes? 19:04:37 I found out late on Friday that the scientific sig slack is logged publically. 19:05:06 I don't know the details beyond that, just found it interesting that they have setup separate logging so they don't have to pay 19:05:08 #link https://join.slack.com/t/os-scientific-sig/shared_invite/zt-31pt79we9-YMbcFrCvcFczkLvTn~aWHA 19:05:21 gouthamr: jbryce will probably have the meeting summary out to the foundation ml tomorrow, and i'll send an update to openstack-discuss once that happens 19:05:29 ++ ty fungi 19:06:05 gouthamr: There is a restriction over public statements of what was in the meeting until jbryce or a designee does a thing. 19:06:14 (i.e. post some sort of summary) 19:07:11 ah i see 19:07:14 thanks, TheJulia 19:07:24 alright everyone sorry this went over 19:07:30 thank you all for joining 19:07:40 see you in this meeting next week! 19:07:46 #endmeeting