17:00:11 <sarob> #startmeeting training-guides
17:00:11 <openstack> Meeting started Mon Nov 17 17:00:11 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is sarob. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:00:12 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
17:00:14 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'training_guides'
17:00:35 <dbite> hello
17:00:37 <rluethi> hy
17:00:41 <matjazp> hi
17:00:42 <sarob> evening
17:00:54 <fthamura> ggreet ;)
17:01:09 <dbite> rluethi, if you are interested in this, the cluster does not work something with the Compute Node
17:01:12 <dbite> VMs do not launch
17:01:29 <rluethi> dbite: you are telling me this now?
17:01:38 <dbite> I found this out like 2 hours ago
17:01:41 <dbite> but you were not on IRC
17:01:56 <rluethi> dbite: let's talk about that after the meeting.
17:02:01 <dbite> yes, sure
17:02:10 <rluethi> dbite: or is it on the agenda? :)
17:02:27 <matjazp> rluethi: now it is ;)
17:02:38 <dbite> rluethi,  I think I agree with matjazp :)
17:02:57 <dbite> we need a way to test changes to the cluster
17:02:57 <sarob> id like to start with #topic specs and blueprints for kilo milestones
17:03:14 <sarob> #topic specs and blueprints for kilo milestones
17:03:27 <sayali> hello
17:03:34 <matjazp> hi sayali
17:04:18 <sarob> #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/docs-specs,n,z
17:04:45 <dbite> sarob, who has the commit rights for this?
17:05:23 <dbite> I mean reviewer rights?
17:05:27 <dbite> from training manuals team
17:05:31 <dbite> *training guides
17:05:42 <sarob> #link https://review.openstack.org/#/admin/groups/384,members
17:05:49 <sarob> looks like just me
17:06:05 <dbite> kool
17:06:12 <Sam-I-Am> hello
17:06:22 <sarob> hey sam-i-am
17:06:28 <matjazp> hi Sam-I-Am
17:06:32 <rluethi> hey
17:06:38 <dbite> hello
17:06:47 <sarob> so our design session ideas from #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/training-guides-kilo-summit
17:07:18 <sarob> need to be voted on in the review queue for #link https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/docs-specs,n,z
17:07:29 <sarob> by the team
17:07:32 <dbite> Sam-I-Am, will you be there on docs IRC channel after the meeting?
17:07:42 <Sam-I-Am> dbite: should be
17:07:48 <dbite> Sam-I-Am, Kool
17:08:45 <sarob> we need to turn our actions and other ideas from the design session into specs and bp
17:08:49 <rluethi> sarob: I am afraid I lost the plot, what is it that you want to vote on, and how/when will that happen?
17:09:02 <sarob> so i can assign them to kilo m1 and m2
17:09:45 <matjazp> sarob: so you want us to take stuff that we talked about at the summit and fill in proper specs and bps?
17:09:51 <sarob> rluethi: for the training team to be all grown up like other projects, we need to follow the kilo release schedule more or less
17:09:57 <sarob> matjazp: yup
17:10:18 <matjazp> sarob: oh, ok.
17:10:21 <sarob> we have a bunch of actions
17:10:35 <sarob> if we just started with those, we
17:10:49 <sarob> will have a bunch of good work for this cycle
17:10:51 <rluethi> sarob: so we'll write up a blueprint for maybe changing the name of a sub-group? for real?
17:11:06 <matjazp> sarob: but not all of them... some are internal...
17:11:14 <matjazp> rluethi: exactly
17:11:15 <sarob> rluethi: no not that, but bigger changes
17:11:37 <matjazp> sarob: like introduction af Moodle for online quizzes
17:11:43 <rluethi> sarob: let's mark the big ones and what kind of spec/blueprint they need, then.
17:11:48 <sarob> matjazp: exactily
17:11:58 <sarob> rluethi: you got it
17:12:11 <sayali> we could have one blueprint per sub pproject to begin with
17:12:19 <matjazp> let do it on the etherpad, below the exiting text
17:12:28 <sarob> our body of work for the kilo release should be described in launchpad
17:12:50 <dbite> I think we need one blueprint per sub-project at least to state the major purpose of the project
17:12:56 <dbite> I agree with sayali
17:13:02 <sarob> the tc is our technical governing body and they need to
17:13:15 <sarob> know what we are planning, have completed,
17:13:19 <sarob> and pushed on
17:13:31 <sarob> dbite: at least one
17:13:37 <sarob> dbite: but yes
17:13:55 <dbite> sarob, yeah, something that gives the general structure for sub-projects and what they do
17:13:59 <sarob> we can have a spec that links to other specs too
17:14:06 <dbite> I am not sure if the TC is interested in reading our Wiki pages that seriously
17:14:10 <sarob> dbite: indeedly
17:14:24 <sarob> dbite: um, prob not
17:14:42 <sarob> dbite: but when we ask for incubation, some will for sure
17:14:56 <sarob> dbite: all will look to launchpad
17:15:29 <sarob> sooo, how to start
17:15:55 <sarob> i like dbite idea of each sub-team lead coming up with specs
17:16:13 <dbite> well, to be fair it was sayalis idea
17:16:15 <sarob> otherwise, you are just planning on the status-quo
17:16:24 <sayali> listing down all the things that need to be done and distinguishing the big ones as bp and the rest as bugs?
17:16:32 <sarob> sayalis: right ;)
17:16:52 <sarob> sayali: certainly, as bugs are generally
17:17:14 <sarob> sayali: small fixes, but also assigned the milestones
17:17:36 <sayali> yep we could have it all organized
17:17:52 <sarob> we can kinda ignore m3 / feature freeze and assign some of our work to then
17:18:05 <sarob> as the docs program does that too
17:18:23 <sarob> but we should avoid big changes late in the release
17:18:40 <sayali> i guess we need to decide on our team workflow as a whole :)
17:18:48 <dbite> are we at the point of deciding the release cycle?
17:18:55 <sarob> dbite: can you riff on a few spec ideas now?
17:18:57 <dbite> I thought we need to wait till we decide on XML content
17:18:59 <sarob> for docs team
17:19:11 <dbite> sarob, that is why I am doing crazy 5k loc patches
17:19:28 <dbite> I need to show the working concept to annegentle before I can comment or proceed
17:19:37 <dbite> as discussed and concluded in the summit meeting
17:19:51 <sarob> dbite: right
17:20:05 <sarob> dbite: thats a spec
17:20:22 <dbite> only after the doc team agrees
17:20:32 <sarob> dbite: perhaps an easy win, but big work that you should get credit for
17:20:33 <dbite> and also it may be a spec for both training uides and docs team
17:20:44 <sarob> dbite: i think it is
17:20:50 <dbite> sarob, yes
17:20:57 <dbite> there was one question that Roger came up with
17:21:02 <dbite> rluethi, want to shoot?
17:21:31 <rluethi> dbite: not sure what you are referring to now.
17:21:32 <sarob> dbite: not all the docs program team was there for our design session, so specs will communicate our plans
17:21:41 <dbite> rluethi, about the content management
17:21:46 <dbite> for slides
17:21:59 <sarob> dbite: get the broader team buyin for our release cycle work
17:22:22 <rluethi> dbite: you mean how we get feedback?
17:22:35 <dbite> ahh, no for creation and maintaining the slides content
17:22:41 <dbite> if we replace it with XML content
17:22:47 <dbite> I did not want to step on your question
17:22:53 <dbite> *XML with slides
17:23:00 <rluethi> dbite: just go ahead :)
17:23:18 <dbite> sarob, We need to have someone maintain and create Slides
17:23:20 <sarob> dbite: like some xml if we use the right tools?
17:23:32 <dbite> which will possibly replace most or all of the XML content
17:23:45 <dbite> I will be a bit pre-occupied with basic-install guides and infra part of the project
17:23:51 <dbite> and I am not good at creating slides
17:23:58 <sarob> dbite: since we plan on most of our content being rst
17:24:19 <matjazp> slides can be just a deliverable like the guides
17:24:45 <sarob> dbite: i think we decided that the slides are the main deliverable, right
17:24:47 <sarob> ?
17:25:04 <matjazp> why separate maintainer?
17:25:15 <sarob> dbite: integration work with install guides remains
17:25:25 <matjazp> we just use the same process we used for Upstream Uni
17:25:40 <sarob> dbite: but rst to html slides are what majority of our customers will use
17:26:02 <sarob> matjazp: thats my understanding
17:26:14 <matjazp> sarob: actually... most will use only html (or PDF ;)
17:26:45 <sarob> matjazp: or pdf, right on
17:26:49 <Sam-I-Am> whatever you do, try to avoid just copying the install guide
17:27:00 <dbite> Sam-I-Am, that is the plan
17:27:03 <Sam-I-Am> tracking changes isnt easy
17:27:07 <dbite> to point links to the manuals content
17:27:12 <dbite> Sam-I-Am, I feel the pain
17:27:41 <Sam-I-Am> docbook inter-book references suck, so maybe regular http links work better... i dunno.
17:27:46 <dbite> sarob, matjazp I am not sure if we just use upstream content
17:27:50 <dbite> or work on it, modify it
17:28:00 <dbite> or we need the same structure and convert books to slides
17:28:00 <sarob> dbite: your spec on the install guide integration plans would help explain the plan
17:28:08 <dbite> sarob, it will not do so
17:28:16 <dbite> it will only push the basic install guides to manuals
17:28:19 <dbite> if it works that is
17:28:24 <Sam-I-Am> if theres any way i can make the install guide more friendly to the training stuff, let me know.
17:28:41 <dbite> Sam-I-Am, I think you will love the idea I am working on
17:28:41 <sarob> sam-i-am: there def is.
17:28:50 <dbite> lets discuss this after the meeting on docs IRC channel
17:28:58 <sarob> Sam-I-Am: we devised a path forward at the summit
17:29:30 <sarob> dbite: please please write up your plan as a spec
17:29:30 <Sam-I-Am> sure. i missed the summit. :/
17:29:46 <sarob> dbite: and work with sam-i-am on that
17:30:05 <sarob> dbite: so the rest of the docs team can comment on
17:30:17 <dbite> sarob, matjazp are you sure we do not need someone to take responsibility for maintaining the Slides? And by slides I mean the slides which will be in place of Associate, Operator, Architect and Developer guides
17:30:26 <matjazp> ok, creation of slides is a big change -> we should do a spec and BP on it
17:30:39 <dbite> sarob, yes, I will I just need to follow our planning from the summit
17:30:48 <matjazp> dbite: what are you proposing? another subproject
17:30:51 <dbite> before pushing anything else and also need to know wher eto push the specss :)
17:30:56 <sarob> dbite: our team will maintain the rst just like we have the xml
17:31:05 <dbite> matjazp, no, I will not be able to work on slides content
17:31:15 <dbite> the same subproject, but I need someone to work on the content
17:31:19 <matjazp> sarob: exactly.. some contributors will focus on slides, some on the guides
17:31:21 <dbite> how to create and maintain the slides
17:31:36 <rluethi> guys, it's not so much about whose project it's on, it's about who is going to do the work.
17:31:44 <sarob> dbite: understood, we need more people on the project
17:31:49 <sarob> dbite: i agree
17:32:00 <matjazp> dbite: oh.. now I understand what are you saying
17:32:01 <rluethi> sarob: yes
17:32:01 <sarob> dbite: i can find you those people
17:32:03 <dbite> sarob, I would be a bad idea for me to create slides, speaking from experience
17:32:10 <dbite> sarob, thanks :)
17:32:23 <matjazp> dbite: no need for you to do it
17:32:27 <sarob> be aware my friends that i have spun up
17:32:38 <sarob> with reed and a few others
17:32:51 <sarob> the product management team within openstack
17:33:00 <sarob> we had our first meet over the summit
17:33:10 <dbite> Product Management?
17:33:17 <sarob> this is really a great opportunity for all of us
17:33:31 <sarob> to get our companies more involved with our projects
17:34:27 <sarob> the pm team is asking the PMs at large to commit resources to the projects they want to succeed
17:34:36 <sarob> like this one
17:34:49 <sarob> we need more people to be successful
17:35:11 <sarob> the rest of the openstack projects need more trained openstack contributors and operators
17:35:31 <matjazp> sarob: so any concrete names yet?
17:35:58 <sarob> yes
17:36:12 <sarob> but i dont see them popping up here yet
17:36:30 <sarob> thats is a very common summit problem
17:36:41 <sarob> interest but hard to follow through
17:36:55 <sarob> i can start to do that now
17:36:59 <Sam-I-Am> +1 on that heh
17:37:02 <Sam-I-Am> especially with docs :/
17:37:09 <sarob> with specs, blueprints and the product management team
17:37:14 <Sam-I-Am> i wish i could put more time into the training stuff
17:37:57 <sarob> sam-i-am: i aim to get commitments from our respective companies to our cause
17:38:13 <sarob> sam-i-am: for each cycle
17:38:44 <Sam-I-Am> i guess in a way i'm helping with the install guide
17:38:47 <sarob> we will have a pm team midcycle like the operators midcycle to discuss release cycle progress
17:39:05 <Sam-I-Am> but i wish we could get more phil_h :)
17:39:13 <sarob> and what the PMs are doing and/or could be doing to meet the project goals
17:39:40 <sarob> back to our agenda
17:39:59 <sarob> if we list out the work we want/need to get done for the kilo cycle
17:40:09 <sarob> i can shop for help
17:40:37 <sarob> if we get incubated,
17:40:47 <sayali> i think we can give that responsibility to each sub-team lead to begin with?
17:40:53 <dbite> sarob, I think we first need a contributor who will be working with us for more than a release cycle
17:40:54 <sarob> it will help us get more help too
17:40:57 <dbite> for the slides content
17:41:12 <sarob> dbite: i agree
17:41:16 <dbite> and then we can get more people volunteer in and not worry if they stick around for longer time
17:41:40 <sarob> so, specs my friends
17:41:49 <sarob> are our friends
17:42:01 <sarob> it describes our plans
17:42:15 <sarob> so we can claim success and
17:42:28 <sarob> get more people aligned with our cause
17:43:09 <sarob> can each of the sub-team leads write out at least two specs by the end of the week?
17:43:41 <sarob> they need to be pushed up so we can read and comment
17:43:49 <rluethi> sarob: I don't think so. we have not yet decided on the things that are spec-worthy.
17:44:01 <dbite> sarob, we need to burn down the list
17:44:10 <dbite> which we did not finish at the last meeting
17:44:17 <dbite> on the etherpad
17:45:16 <sarob> dbite: you dont think the install guide integration is worthy of a spec?
17:45:33 <dbite> sarob, I need a go forward from annegentle first
17:45:50 <dbite> then I know where to push the basic install guide
17:46:04 <dbite> and it is clear where and how exactly to write the spec
17:46:04 <sarob> dbite: how are you planning on doing the integration?
17:46:20 <dbite> first is the POC, which is in the reivew system as of now
17:46:34 <dbite> https://review.openstack.org/#/c/134538/
17:46:37 <dbite> #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/134538/
17:46:58 <dbite> once this is in and builds basic install guides, I show it to Anne and get her consent
17:47:02 <dbite> then I push the spec
17:47:08 <dbite> and integration starts :)
17:47:11 <sarob> dude, its backwards
17:47:21 <sarob> first spec for big changes
17:47:25 <sarob> then patch
17:47:30 <dbite> sarob, this is before the spec
17:47:33 <dbite> or changes
17:47:44 <dbite> if annegentle says no, then there is no integration
17:47:52 <dbite> then we continue with our old ways
17:47:57 <sarob> spec/bp is for discussing big changes
17:48:08 <matjazp> rluethi: dbite: but anne can block that in the spec/bp, can't she?
17:48:33 <sarob> dbite: you need to discuss the change with annegentle and the rest of the docs team
17:48:35 <rluethi> matjazp: I suppose. spec in that case is just a proposal.
17:48:40 <dbite> sarob, matjazp, I agree but this is what we agreed in the summit during the meeting with annegentle and ajaeger
17:48:44 <sarob> dbite: the spec/bp is where you do that
17:49:06 <dbite> sarob, the point is that I need to prove if the integration idea is even valid for a proposal
17:49:39 <dbite> need some feedback and then know for sure what the proposal it is!
17:49:46 <dbite> feedback from the manuals team
17:50:07 <sarob> dbite: ugh, i guess proceed if annegentle asked for it this way
17:50:36 <sarob> dbite: its going to be difficult for the rest of the docs team to understand what is happenning
17:50:53 <sarob> dbite: and why
17:51:10 <dbite> sarob, we already have a spec for basic install guides
17:51:18 <dbite> this change is not a push for integration
17:51:48 <rluethi> sarob: I thought the idea was to have a POC first and if it proves to be doable, then ask for feedback.
17:51:52 <dbite> since annegentle did not understand how it will work, she asked me to do a basic mockup and get more feed back
17:52:20 <dbite> sarob, I am not against writing spec for it but the problem right now is if we need to spec
17:52:31 <sarob> dbite: yeah, i remember
17:52:34 <dbite> and where to put it, manuals, or training guides etc.
17:52:42 <sarob> dbite: now
17:53:19 <sarob> dbite: so will discuss the merits of the change in gerrit
17:53:46 <dbite> yeah
17:54:39 <sarob> rluethi: can you write up getting the build scripts to work with public infra?
17:55:12 <sarob> matjazp: write up the moodle work as one or more specs
17:55:31 <matjazp> sarob:will do
17:55:34 <rluethi> sarob: can you elaborate what you mean?
17:55:46 <sarob> sayali: specs on AV scripts, etc
17:56:16 <sarob> rluethi: we need to get trainees using a cluster to learn
17:56:31 <sarob> rluethi: either local laptop or remote public infra
17:56:32 <sayali> sarob:cool, but without prior discussion with the team?
17:56:43 <matjazp> rluethi: dbite: I will give scripts to my students
17:56:53 <dbite> matjazp, in that case we will fix it asap
17:56:58 <dbite> matjazp, its a minor issue
17:57:03 <rluethi> sarob: you mean make the scripts work hosted on openstack?
17:57:07 <sarob> sayali: we will discuss and debate over the specs themselves
17:57:09 <dbite> not a major one, probably ubuntu updated something
17:57:19 <dbite> sayali, discussion can happen over the review process
17:57:23 <sayali> i think in that case i should make the video on how to use osbash soon too :)
17:57:25 <dbite> sarob, we need to agree when to push the specs
17:57:28 <matjazp> dbite: ok
17:57:34 <sarob> rluethi: i dont think so,
17:57:35 <dbite> I suggest getting +1 from all the core team
17:57:39 <sayali> cool sarob dbite
17:57:59 * rluethi is dense and will need some further explanation
17:58:09 <sarob> rluethi: i think we need to build the images for use in public clouds
17:58:21 * dbite is more stupid for sure
17:58:31 <sarob> rluethi: and figure out how the best way the trainers can prep for a class
17:59:00 <sarob> rluethi: by either prepping the students to build the cluster on their laptop prior to class
17:59:19 <sarob> rluethi: or by getting the public infra ready
17:59:23 <matjazp> times up
17:59:23 <rluethi> sarob: okay, I can think about that. do we have a template for training-guide specs?
17:59:26 <sarob> rluethi: or both
17:59:43 <rluethi> matjazp: yup
17:59:46 <sarob> rluethi: id use the docs one
17:59:53 <rluethi> sarob: k
18:00:40 <sarob> #link https://github.com/openstack/docs-specs/blob/master/specs/template.rst
18:00:45 <sarob> out of time
18:00:47 <sarob> friends
18:00:53 <sarob> see you on the ML
18:01:00 <sarob> #endmeeting