13:00:27 #startmeeting training-guides 13:00:28 Meeting started Tue Feb 7 13:00:27 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is matjazp. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 13:00:29 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. 13:00:32 The meeting name has been set to 'training_guides' 13:00:33 roll call 13:01:09 o/ 13:02:07 hey ildikov 13:02:26 #link Agenda at https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/training-guides-meeting-agenda 13:02:39 matjazp: hi :) 13:02:55 nothing special on the agenda 13:03:36 o- 13:03:39 lets wait a bit, it's weird that attendance is so low 13:03:39 oops 13:03:41 o/ 13:03:49 I'm here! :-) 13:04:11 kmARC: hi :) 13:04:27 hey kmARC 13:05:09 see meeting minutes at http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/training_guides/2017/training_guides.2017-01-24-13.01.html 13:05:41 no action items from the last meeting 13:05:49 clean slate :) 13:06:06 #topic Upstream training 13:06:39 Oops, sorry, bit late again 13:06:40 o/ 13:06:44 hey asettle 13:06:48 Hey matjazp :) 13:06:55 asettle: hi :) 13:07:01 Hello helloooo 13:07:09 we just started a topic about Upstream 13:07:18 Cool :) please continue, sorry to interrupt! 13:07:36 anything to report here? 13:08:06 Um 13:08:07 Sort of 13:08:08 Haha 13:08:19 I would like to try and integrate a proper docs training schedule if possible 13:08:31 I know there was some jotted down notes on the etherpad (which I can't find right now) 13:08:48 matjazp: I sent out the mail to look for mentors to the upstream training, I will follow up with those who volunteered already 13:09:30 asettle: look at the meeting minutes for the last meeting (link is few lines up) 13:09:35 asettle: the exercises etherpad you mean? 13:09:40 Thank you, yes. 13:09:49 #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/upstream-training-exercises 13:10:23 asettle: we had deep dive sessions in Barcelona and we would like to keep that 13:10:35 ildikov: what is the response rate? what are the numbers? 13:10:44 asettle: so if you have ideas on how to improve the docs deep dive that would be great! 13:10:46 ildikov: keep what? 13:10:47 Oh right! 13:10:49 Yes, okay, will do. 13:10:59 Got it. Yeah, I want to try and come up with a scenario for training. I noticed that trevormc had suggested building reno notes but I'm not entirely too sure that's best case scenario but it could be setup to be apprpriate. 13:11:06 Let me think some more on this and I will get back to you. 13:11:15 I'll leave a note for me to action this in the etherpad. 13:12:06 asettle: the deep dive was the block, where students were sitting together with with a mentor in groups and got deeper into the code and/or documentation 13:12:23 asettle: how to build docs, modify things, etc 13:12:49 'the block' ? 13:12:53 asettle: in case of code how to run tests, how to use devstack to debug, how to find why a test is failing, etc. 13:13:33 asettle: we had modules/blocks during the training teaching relevant things to new contributors 13:13:55 asettle: check here: http://docs.openstack.org/upstream-training/ 13:14:40 matjazp: we have about 5 people so far 13:14:42 Makes sense. But nothing for docs, except for: http://docs.openstack.org/upstream-training/docs.html#6 13:15:00 matjazp: I haven't reached out to the new PTLs yet, that's the next step 13:15:27 ildikov: yes, but it is still a bit early for this, right? 13:15:32 asettle: Christian didn't upload slides that's why that content is missing 13:15:47 matjazp: from the actual training perspective yes 13:16:12 matjazp: on the other hand I would like to get some more community engagement to onboard new contributors 13:16:39 ildikov: so, perhaps I am confused but there is no planning training exercises for documentation in the etherpad or in the upstream-training page you linked me to. THat's why I am offering help. If there IS already something, then I have misunderstood :) 13:17:56 ildikov: agree 13:18:43 asettle: sorry, I was just trying to explain the training format in general 13:18:52 Oh! Oh I'm so sorry I got really lost there! 13:18:56 Makes perfect sense :) 13:19:18 asettle: but nevertheless - please contribute some exercises for the docs 13:19:19 asettle: and as the docs part is not documented and less in shape, it's great and perfect that you offer your help! 13:19:31 Right right! Hahaha I am so sorry guys I just messed this section up real bad 13:19:32 asettle: as we need it much :) 13:19:38 *head desk* 13:19:53 hi sorry fir late 13:19:56 for 13:20:01 #action asettle will make some exercises for the Docs part of the Upstream training 13:20:10 asettle: nah, it's all fine, I will send out a follow up mail to those, who help out and will summarize things 13:20:18 ildikov: perfect :) Thank you 13:20:32 asettle: including how we ran the training last time, so it will be more clear to everyone 13:20:37 hey ildikov 13:20:40 ups 13:20:42 asettle: sorry I haven't done it so far 13:20:44 hey ianychoi 13:20:50 matjazp: no probs :) 13:20:58 ianychoi: hi :) 13:21:05 ildikov: not at all! 13:22:39 any other action items? 13:23:56 anything else left to discuss/report about Upstream training? 13:24:08 Nope :) 13:24:26 #topic training guides 13:25:07 still very slow progress 13:25:19 any ideas how to reignite this topic? 13:25:37 Upstream is flourishing, but Training guides... ehh.. :( 13:26:15 SO, matjazp I remember there being a brief discussion at the last summit about moving the training guides to live similarly to the deployment guides 13:26:25 matjazp: do yuo know how much it is used? 13:26:34 ildikov: nope 13:26:43 it's still in draft http://docs.openstack.org/draft/training-guides/ 13:26:48 #link http://docs.openstack.org/draft/training-guides/ 13:27:03 some progress, but not a lot 13:27:04 Hmm, matjazp is it in decent enough format to be brought out of the draft state? What would you recommend? 13:27:16 asettle: no, it's not 13:27:41 Hmmm, okay. Is there an etherpad, list, bug reports anything that would alert users to potentially required content? 13:27:47 Sorry, potentially asking all the obvious questions. 13:28:11 asettle: the idea was to create the material that our Meetups /Openstack days/ community events could quickly use/reuse for the basic openstack intro 13:28:18 so not for developers, for users 13:28:36 Sure - but people still need to know where they can go to help work on the content. 13:28:41 asettle: the bugs are in our bug list on LP 13:28:47 Okay, cool, so there is bugs. 13:28:56 #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-training-guides/ 13:29:00 Was there ever an 'action plan' of sorts? Perhaps with deadlines? 13:29:14 they are marked with [training guides] 13:29:19 Ha Ben sitting in the wrong room. Morning all 13:29:29 o/ 13:29:31 asettle: nope .. there were never enoughcontributors 13:29:43 hey spotz 13:30:04 matjazp: might be worth thinking about regardless. If someone offers to contribute, where do you tell them to start? 13:30:20 with a bug 13:30:33 there are some smaller ones 13:30:45 but maybe we could expand this slist or make it more explicit 13:31:19 I know that it is hard to start a whole "chapter", but enhancing an existing one is much easier 13:31:44 Perhaps? I mean, I'm just think-tanking but whenever I've been trying to push documentation action items I find people respond better to a plan rather than just picking up bugs (unless the actual action item is to pick up bugs) 13:31:56 Hmm... yep still slow progress on training-guides 13:32:03 matjazp Do you mark them low hanging fruit? 13:32:06 so it's much better to quickly merge the content, it is published as draft anyway, and then reiterate and improve 13:32:14 For training-guides, using a spec would be a good idea for enhancing training-guides? 13:32:26 spotz: no, i dont think so 13:32:41 That might be one helpful item, good idea spotz 13:32:54 I recently have thought that openstack-training-101 for training-guides 13:32:56 I think ianychoi might be right about creating a spec too. Having a more detailed outline of what you want to achieve for Pike 13:32:57 would be a good 13:33:16 I know when I look to join a new project that's something I look for 13:33:32 IMO upstream training is like openstack-contribution-101 and training-guides is like openstack-usage-101 13:34:04 perhaps.. but I'm afraid that it will just create more overhead 13:34:18 ianychoi: yes, you could look at it that way 13:35:30 So, I guess it's worth looking at: 1. who uses the training info, 2. Can we get in contact with those people to help contribute, 3. If we can't get those people, how can we do it ourselves 13:36:04 asettle, thanks a lot for your insight 13:36:07 +1 13:36:08 asettle: how can you get info about #1? 13:36:44 we can always try an ML thread 13:37:09 +[ also ask during the training in Boston 13:37:19 if we have material out then we can try to look into how much the page is used, won't give us names though, but at least ideas about how much it is used 13:37:37 matjazp: we can probably use the google analytics to take a look 13:38:01 ildikov: yes, but material in this stage is still to incomplete to be useful 13:38:05 Hmm.. maybe certified OpenStack training institutes use simliar documentation for openstack-usage-101? 13:38:07 I'm trying to get access at the moment, but let's see if we can get Anne to take a look - see what the numbers are. If there are good numbers, maybe we can put a call out to the mailing list(s) on ops, dev, and doc to find out 13:38:33 ianychoi: sure they do, but they are usually their IP 13:38:44 matjazp and ildikov - so, I guess teh one positive about having a draft guide up on the main page is at the very least people can *see* that there are gaps to be filled. 13:38:47 It's kind of what they did with the HA guide 13:39:06 IP=intellectual property 13:39:31 asettle: where do you propose to publish the link? 13:39:37 not on the main page 13:39:45 matjazp, I see :) 13:40:45 matjazp: I don't know, to be completely honest. Perhaps we release it with Ocata. 13:40:58 asettle: yep, it's important to make it visible if we are fishing for help and feedback 13:41:37 Personally, that's what I would do. But I understand if you don't want to publish half finished work. 13:41:43 IMO moving from http://docs.openstack.org/draft/training-guides/ to like http://docs.openstack.org/training-guides/ would be a good idea (without releasename like install-guides) 13:41:46 Yeah w take the info and make it our own. But let's be real there's only one way to CLI and create a server so all training is similar but not the same. 13:41:56 how do other guides publish their early draft conent? 13:42:13 Sorry trying to follow the meeting and get a horse ready to ride, 13:42:16 But I think matjazp 's question is related where such early draft site (training-guides) needs to be linked 13:42:39 I think what ianychoi said about moving it to docs.o.o/training-guides would work. 13:43:20 asettle: could we use d.o.o/training-guides URL and mark it as an early draft? 13:43:39 that would increase visibility 13:43:48 visibility == more contributors 13:43:52 In theory, yep. matjazp - send an email to Andreas Jaeger and Brian Moss and see if they can do it. 13:43:55 They're our tools team. 13:44:09 I can't promise anything, but it's worth starting that conversation with them. 13:44:16 We can then work with the team to have DRAFT stamped on the guide 13:44:56 asettle: what is the "graduation" procedure for other guides? when are they good enough to publish? 13:45:28 can we publish them from the VERY early stage onward? 13:45:37 matjazp: to be fair, that's a pretty hard question to answer. Most we tend to publish as long as they have updated content. Install/config/cli guides are released, but the others just are continuing 13:46:12 matjazp: that second questino you're probably better addressing to Andreas - to be completely honest. Not that I *can't* answer it, I'm fairly sure you can publish it. But the tools team might have a different idea of what's best for the guides. 13:46:44 Aha tools team 13:46:52 ok, lets thing about this and we can discuss this again over ML or the next IRC meeting 13:46:56 asettle, btw, tools team also deal with openstackstheme? 13:47:00 ianychoi: yes :) 13:47:02 sorry openstackdocstheme 13:47:06 So, tools lead is now Brian Moss from Rackspace 13:47:16 And Andreas Jaeger and Christian Berendt also help out. 13:47:17 I see wow cool 13:47:41 Brian is also our release manager for Ocata matjazp - so he will be the best person to talk to about getting docs released. 13:47:46 The other person is Maria Zlatkova 13:48:12 It would be nice if they will have an idea how slide style can be enhanced with better UI/UX for training-guides and also upstream-training 13:48:13 #info we discuss about the best way to increase Training guides visibility again on the next meeting 13:48:27 ianychoi: they might be able to help with that :) 13:48:38 we have only 12 minutes left, so maybe we can move on? 13:48:40 Sorry! 13:48:41 YEs :) 13:48:43 asettle, great :) 13:48:44 Yep! 13:48:53 :) 13:48:56 #topic any other business 13:49:02 #link http://openstack-kr.github.io/upstream-training/2017/index_en.html 13:49:16 Korean local upstream training will be held on this upcoming Saturday 13:49:40 I am preparing it with local community members so I was late for today meeting.. 13:50:58 kmARC, I will use your VM image during local upstream training :) 13:51:00 great: dont forget to send a report into our local events archive 13:51:13 matjazp, yep sure :) 13:51:32 there was a discussion over email about the status of Training guides Coordinators group on LP 13:51:35 ianychoi: sounds great :) 13:52:34 I suggested that we can just make a list the same as for cores (https://review.openstack.org/#/admin/groups/360,members) 13:52:43 is averyone ok with that? 13:53:14 Sounds good to me 13:53:26 just to clarify: only Tom and Sean Robers were admins in that group, and Lana was making some cleaning up effort 13:53:34 matjazp, I agree + when asettle will be included in openstack-training-guides-core 13:53:34 ? :) 13:53:41 the group is practically not used for much 13:53:57 ianychoi: asettle is already a member - via docs core 13:54:06 matjazp: am I? 13:54:07 Coolio :) 13:54:16 I will add it to my review list. 13:54:17 and of course, she's replacing Lana in it directly 13:54:25 matjazp, aha yep. cool 13:54:29 Well, that's true. I'll do anything I can to help 13:54:33 Ping me when/if you need anything 13:54:43 I will do my best to attend meetings and keep up to date with everything! 13:54:56 #link https://launchpad.net/~openstack-upstream-training-coordinators 13:55:05 so is it ok with everyone to make this LP group the same as core group? 13:55:08 matjazp: I'm most likely going to be sending out my first newsletter report this week, I am happy to highlight a need for contributors to the trainin-guides if you want to send me a quick summary of things? 13:55:15 This might be replaced with openstack-training-guides-core? 13:55:24 :-) of course ianychoi. Sorry people, I need to go now to a meeting :-| 13:56:00 asettle: sure. The main point is what ianychoi said: we are building a openstack-101 for users (upstream is for develpers) 13:56:09 matjazp: cool, well let's get hte word out. 13:56:22 I'll try to make meetings but it'll be from the stable.But I've got approval to come early and help in Boston 13:56:26 ianychoi: i dont know how 13:56:40 I guess gerrit and LP groups are separate 13:57:00 spotz: thnx 13:57:08 kmARC: bye 13:57:11 matjazp, actually neither do I. I just followed some instructions how to create openstack-dev-sandbox launchpad and included all the upstream training leaders on last Barcelona 13:57:31 ianychoi: yes, but the are separate groups, right? 13:57:39 matjazp, yep separate groups 13:57:40 spotz: great news! :) 13:57:56 spotz: glad you can come earlier to Boston 13:58:25 spotz, wow let's see on Boston. :) 13:58:39 during upstream training 13:58:43 ianychoi: can this be automated? or linked? 13:58:56 hard deadline in 1 min 13:59:06 any last time announcements? 13:59:09 matjazp, IMO launchpad cores are manually managed not automated.. 13:59:20 Yep... 13:59:20 ianychoi: i think so too 13:59:26 Thanks for all today! 13:59:34 thanks for your time all 13:59:41 see you in 2 weeks 13:59:44 bye! 13:59:58 Laters 14:00:03 #endmeeting