15:02:59 <VW_> #startmeeting uc
15:03:00 <openstack> Meeting started Mon Jun 24 15:02:59 2019 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is VW_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:03:01 <openstack> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
15:03:04 <openstack> The meeting name has been set to 'uc'
15:03:17 <VW_> #chair spotz belmoreira
15:03:18 <openstack> Current chairs: VW_ belmoreira spotz
15:03:32 <VW_> sorry for being a couple minutes late - was looking away
15:03:36 <VW_> #topic roll call
15:03:41 <VW_> o/
15:03:44 <aprice> o/
15:03:47 <spotz> o/
15:03:48 <VW_> let me pull up the etherpad
15:03:51 <belmoreira> o/
15:04:49 <VW_> hmm - no stuff there.  Let's wing it then :)
15:05:03 <VW_> #topic catch up from previous meeting(s)
15:05:15 <VW_> did you all meet the last two mondays?
15:05:17 <spotz> no meetings
15:05:21 <VW_> ah
15:05:23 <VW_> ok
15:07:23 <jamesmcarthur> We haven't had quorum
15:07:29 <VW_> well then #topic elections
15:07:36 <VW_> #topic elections
15:07:52 <VW_> sorry - haven't been typing on keyboards for almost two weeks :)
15:08:35 <jamesmcarthur> I'm just going to throw this out there. Should we consider restructuring the UC in some form or fashion?
15:09:21 <VW_> We can
15:09:28 <jamesmcarthur> Looking back on our past agendas, there has not been a ton accomplished.  Much of the work has moved on to other groups and SIGs and we now have an actual operator as head of the TC.
15:09:48 <jamesmcarthur> Part of the mission of the UC was to get better community representation, but it seems that goal may be accomplished.
15:09:50 <VW_> probably want a few folks to help set some context/food for though
15:09:59 <VW_> #chair josephrsandoval
15:10:00 <openstack> Current chairs: VW_ belmoreira josephrsandoval spotz
15:11:56 <belmoreira> jamescarthur can you elaborate in: "but it seems that goal may be accomplished"
15:12:44 <jamesmcarthur> belmoreira: I think initially there was a community divide b/w developers and operators. The UC was created to help bridge that gap and also give representation to operators and users.
15:13:12 <jamesmcarthur> Now, with an operator as chair of the TC and Ops Meetups at least somewhat integrated with PTGs, I'd say the gap has been effectively bridged.
15:14:29 <jamesmcarthur> We have some very successful SIGs (Scientific SIG, Financial SIG, etc...) that are working directly with users and developers alike.
15:14:56 <jamesmcarthur> And the Ops Meetup itself is largely run by the Ops Meetup WG with very little input from the UC.
15:16:03 <VW_> Those are good points.
15:16:05 <jamesmcarthur> And it seems, from the last PTG in Denver, that most of hte new pilot projects are more interested in an integrated version of the TC and UC for their communities.
15:16:09 <aprice> we are actually starting to see something similar with the user survey with the TC adding questions and the project teams reviewing  the feedback directly in addition to the TC
15:17:57 <belmoreira> they are very good points but I still think there's a lot of room for the UC
15:18:58 <belmoreira> the TC having an operator it just happened. Doesn't mean that in the future ops will be represented there
15:19:43 <belmoreira> SIGs are doing great but I think the UC can have an active role to bridge them
15:19:49 <jamesmcarthur> My proposal would be to reach out to the TC and look at having some permanent user seats designated.
15:20:10 <jamesmcarthur> That's kind of off the top of my head, b/c I agree there's no guarantee of a permanent user representation.
15:20:29 <jamesmcarthur> But the UC was really created to address a community divide, and IMO that divide doesn't really exist any longer.
15:20:40 <jamesmcarthur> I think the community has grown past it.
15:20:59 <VW_> I agree with the divide being taken care of
15:22:08 <aprice> are there any goals from the UC that yall feel are not being taken care of by one of the other existing groups?
15:23:53 <spotz> I think we're still the interaction between OpenStack and the community at large not the community that contributes code. The divide between OPS and dev is nearly gone I think as ops have had to step in to fix things with less devs.
15:24:40 <belmoreira> unfortunately I don't feel that the "divide" as been taken care
15:25:15 <belmoreira> in my ideal world we shouldn't need several meeting/events for ops/devs/users
15:25:40 <belmoreira> the change in the PTG in definitely positive
15:25:53 <belmoreira> but I believe much more can be done
15:27:29 <spotz> We had more users at times in the OSA room at the PTG then dev/cores
15:27:29 <aprice> i agree that more could be done to help bridge the groups, but I wonder if having two separate governances is achieving that at this stage.
15:28:31 <aprice> i guess what may be good is to revisit and redefine the UC goals and action items. because at this point, it feels like things are just paused
15:30:00 <VW_> Yeah - I've been feeling a bit frustrated too.  The big thing we need to do is help continue the feedback loop. Only slow progress there. I also think the UC (as it's structured now) is a large difference in how the OpenStack project(s) are looked after versus the other OSF projects
15:30:45 <VW_> So, one has to wonder if the rise of multiple tier 1 projects is a catalyst for rethinking "governance" so that there is a more similar approach across the board
15:33:38 <jamesmcarthur> I don't think there needs to be the exact same governance across projects, but I do think there is some merit to creating the appearance of community by not artificially separating the two groups.
15:33:42 <spotz> When we met with the other groups in Denver there main point was they didn't have users yet. But at the same time if we're not out there pushing helping bridge the gap do we need to be separate or have x seats on the TC
15:36:29 <aprice> well the other projects do have users now and their users are talking directly to the technical leaders and developers which i think is a huge learning from openstack and kudos to the overall community
15:37:06 <aprice> with the refreshing of the global ambassador program and increased representation from operators on the TC, i think that we are moving in the right direction
15:37:06 <jamesmcarthur> Right. They're integrating the two groups from the get go, which I think is largely due to lessons learned from OpenStack.
15:38:20 <VW_> I think the key for this group is that if anything changes, we are still honoring the mission of "ensuring the voice of the operator/user is represented in the evolution of the projects and the community"
15:38:35 <spotz> +1
15:40:57 <jamesmcarthur> So maybe the way forward is to define what the next year looks like, keeping in mind that mission.
15:41:01 <josephrsandoval> which today the voice might be heard. but as community evolves that could change.
15:41:21 <josephrsandoval> and yes agree on a revisiting of the UC goals.
15:42:04 <belmoreira> yes, I agree with revisiting the UC goals
15:43:17 <aprice> should we add them to the agenda?
15:43:21 <aprice> er etherpad
15:43:34 <VW_> yes - we can do that
15:44:44 <VW_> I added a heading in the etherpad, for all of us to make notes
15:46:11 <VW_> we don't have to do it all now, but we should spend the next few days adding to that
15:50:14 <VW_> can we all agree to do that by next Monday and we can discuss further?
15:50:28 <VW_> belmoreira, spotz, josephrsandoval, jamesmcarthur, aprice ^
15:51:08 <josephrsandoval> ack
15:51:24 <VW_> cool #topic Any Other Business
15:51:28 <VW_> argh
15:51:35 <VW_> #topic Any Other Business
15:53:03 <aprice> keep promoting the user survey :)
15:53:05 <spotz> none from me
15:55:24 <VW_> OK - then everyone spend some time on the document, and we'll pick this back up next Monday
15:55:33 <VW_> and promote the survey ;)
15:55:37 <VW_> like aprice said
15:55:45 <aprice> :)
15:55:47 <aprice> thanks everyone!
15:55:54 <VW_> I'll give everyone a couple minutes back
15:55:57 <VW_> thanks for joining
15:56:01 <VW_> #endmeeting