Friday, 2015-08-07

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openstackgerritKevin Fox proposed stackforge/apps-catalog: Convert Murano assets to common format.
openstackgerritKevin Fox proposed stackforge/apps-catalog-ui: Initial Depends and Bundle support added
openstackgerritKevin Fox proposed stackforge/apps-catalog: Add a test server
kfox1111doh. that created a new review...15:32
kfox1111oh well.15:32
kfox1111oh. no it didn't.15:32
kfox1111docaedo: alive?15:34
docaedokfox1111: better than that - about to give feedback on 210487!15:34
kfox1111cool. thanks. :)15:35
kfox1111once we merge that one, it should be pretty easy to merge them all together into one file.15:36
docaedoonly issue is murano bundle name doesn't show up in input box at the top of detail page (but murano packages work properly)15:37
docaedoI didn't dig in though to see exactly why15:37
kfox1111The whole websites needing an overhaul. :/15:37
kfox1111its not going to be easy to add other format types to it the way it is I think.15:38
kfox1111I'm wandering if we can share code between the horizon ui and the website.15:38
kfox1111I'm really digging the ansible stuf. makes it really easy.15:38
docaedothats an interesting idea15:39
kfox1111we need to add a bundles top level resource type in the website to handle bundles I think.15:39
kfox1111I contemplated adding a glance bundle as part of the review but didn't want to do too much in one review.15:41
kfox1111like, a commmon jeos images bundle.15:41
kfox1111centos, ubuntu, debian, and cirros or something like that.15:41
docaedoI think breaking murano bundles is something to be concerned with here15:41
docaedoMurano already has the bundle concept, which muran UI and CLI handle15:42
docaedoso if the app catalog has a bundle concept that steps on how murano handles bundles, that's a bad precedent to set15:42
kfox1111yeah, and I think they overstepped there. :/15:42
kfox1111we can add new types, and they cant handle them.15:43
docaedo(not saying app catalog can't have bundles, but that app catalog bundle concept should not impact any services)15:43
kfox1111why should murano know how to install glance images?15:43
kfox1111or solum language packs?15:43
docaedomurano should know how to install a glance image because it's one of the basic things murano does, and has always done15:43
kfox1111so when murano gains solum support? kubernetes? mistral?15:45
docaedowe shouldn't break things that are working, and the murano UI can fetch things from the app catalog by first fetching a bundle (which describes the dependencies in the bundle)15:45
kfox1111what about the systems that don't have murano installed?15:45
docaedothen they won't be fetching murano things anyway?15:45
kfox1111but simply changing the entries from multiple files to one is going to break things.15:46
kfox1111they are depending on an unstable api. :/15:46
kfox1111thats why I was pushing a while back for a /v1/x or something.15:46
kfox1111so we can version things.15:46
docaedoIMO it shouldn't break anything - we started with three YAMLs, which assumed three different asset types (glance, heat, murano)15:46
kfox1111Relying on the raw data in /static/*.yaml means we can't ever change it, because we won't know what will break.15:47
docaedocombining three asset types into a single file at least COULD have been as easy as just including "asset-tpe15:47
kfox1111it will when we merge, cause murano_apps.yaml won't exist any more.15:47
docaedoasset-type field with that entry15:47
kzaitsev1mbmurano does not rely on murano_apps.yaml being available anywhere.15:47
docaedokzaitsev1mb thanks, I was about to say that15:48
kfox1111then how do they care about bundles at all?15:48
docaedomurano just needs to know the name of the package or bundle15:48
kfox1111they seem to be a app-catalog construct.15:48
kzaitsev1mbit just searches for a file on a http server15:48
kfox1111there is no source to them.15:48
kzaitsev1mbmurano bundles are just json-files, that list packages murano wants15:49
kzaitsev1mbthey're searched the same way packages are15:49
kfox1111ok. lets verify that..15:49
kfox1111if you go to,15:49
kfox1111click murano,15:49
kfox1111search for bundle, click on one,15:49
kfox1111what do you do with the bundle name?15:50
docaedobundle name is "app-servers"15:50
kfox1111for example "app-servers"15:50
docaedoif you put that in murano UI, urano grabs the app-servers bundle from (hold one sec for URL...)15:50
kfox1111so, where does that go? how does murano resolve that to some list of stuff without pulling murano_apps.yaml?15:50
kzaitsev1mb`murano bundle-import app-servers` from console or paste it to the UI dialog15:50
kfox1111Its got to come from a catalog somewhere...15:51
docaedothe murano bundles are independent of what's in the catalog15:51
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docaedoit gets dependencies based on what's in the YAML in the zip file that murano grabs15:52
kfox1111from where?15:52
kfox1111it cant be magic. :)15:52
kzaitsev_mbthen it goes to MURANO_REPO_URL (that's pointing to by default now) and fetches
kzaitsev_mbthere's no magic really =)15:52
docaedokzaitsev_mb: thanks that's the URL I was about to verify15:53
kfox1111is there a way to browse whats in there?15:54
kzaitsev_mbit is most likely possible to create a concept of bundles on top of app-catalog, that would not break murano stuff, and then teach murano to support that kind of stuff15:54
kzaitsev_mbkfox1111: I don't think there is as of now15:54
kfox1111just wondering what other kinds of things are in there.15:54
kfox1111so a murano bundle json file contains basically whats in the app catalog entry.15:55
kfox1111potential for getthing things out of sync though.15:55
kzaitsev_mbwell, murano expects apps/ bundles/ and images/ directories to contain some stuff.15:55
docaedodefinitely potential for getting things out of sync, but that's kind of a murano issue (or at least should be considered a murano issue IMO)15:55
kfox1111but its ours for reviewing things that go in.15:56
kfox1111if we don't know it exists, we allow badness to creap in.15:56
kfox1111good to know it exists.15:56
kfox1111so... must images be in images?15:56
kfox1111what about external images?15:56
kfox1111or are those links to images?15:57
kzaitsev_mboh, about browsing — I guess docaedo should have access15:57
docaedothe murano link to the app-catalog doesn't handle external images15:57
docaedothe cloud-files directory with bundles only has six entries, they are:15:58
docaedoapp-servers.bundle, container-based-apps.bundle, databases.bundle, docker-n-kubernetes.bundle, docker_kubernetes.bundle and monitoring.bundle15:58
kfox1111so those are just json files. we could even autogenerate those from the catalog entries to keep them in sync.15:59
docaedoyou can see any of those with curl
kzaitsev_mbkfox1111: sure, I actually thought, that at some point those would be api calls or something16:00
kfox1111yeah. poking at them now.16:00
kfox1111yeah. we really realy need to come up with a stable api, or document format, or whatever,16:00
kfox1111if folks are going to start relying on it.16:00
kfox1111trying to do that with the merge.16:00
kfox1111ok. so, for now, it does seem like murano bundles are a thing...16:01
kfox1111an unfortunate thing, but a thing.16:02
kfox1111so I'll redo things so that they are murano only entries rather then bundles.16:02
kfox1111this will further confuse the ui...16:02
kfox1111we have bundles, and murano bundles. :/16:02
docaedomurano had bundles first :)16:03
docaedo(just sayin' ;) )16:03
kfox1111murano has had a bunch of things first, but it doesn't mean its the right place for it. :/16:03
kfox1111it seems to do too much. :/16:04
kfox1111the usual openstack mantra is, try and do one thing well.16:04
kzaitsev_mbthat's usual unix mantra, isn't it?16:05
kfox1111murano's a local app catalog, orchestration engine, environment management engine, etc.16:05
docaedoI don't have a strong opinion on that, but changing the way the app catalog works is definitely not the right way to drive change in murano16:05
docaedosorry if I'm sounding harsh - my belief is that app catalog should be as unopinionated as possible16:06
kfox1111so, we'll have to deal with the user confusion probably the same way we have to deal with the user confusion of murano itself. tag the murano bundles as "Murano Bundles".16:06
kfox1111I mostly agree with you. but I also care about user experience.16:07
docaedoas a showcase of things you can get for an openstack cloud, it can't be the arbiter of how different projects should name/categorize stuff16:07
kfox1111having to explain to a scientist what murano is just so they can find stuff seems like a wrong thing.16:07
docaedothat I can agree with :)16:08
kfox1111they shouldn't have to care about the individual services. just, I want X app.16:08
kfox1111its like, say I write gui to consume the app catalog data.16:11
kfox1111If I want to have part of it look for "bundles" to present to the user,16:12
kfox1111if each service type as their own notion of bundle, then the code's crazy to write.16:12
kfox1111and maintain.16:12
kfox1111every time a new service gets added, all the codes need updating.16:12
kfox1111we'll add back murano for now, and we should try and deprecate it. :/16:13
kfox1111murano bundles16:13
docaedothat's one reason I think the app catalog should be relatively dumb in that respect, and should not try to be smart enough to grab things the user might not realize they need16:14
kfox1111what else is in storage?16:14
kfox1111its not the users in that case, its the consumers of the catalog data.16:16
kfox1111I am glad to see there is a small abstraction between murano and the catalog, by way of the bundle files.16:17
docaedosure, but then the app catalog starts to look very much like a PaaS ..16:17
kfox1111that will at least allow us to fix the schema and not break things.16:17
kfox1111when it comes to running "apps", why does a user care if its iaas, paas, etc?16:17
docaedobut yes, should be able to fix the schema without breaking murano entries or behavior16:18
kfox1111the app could be launched on solum, which stands up a paas to run it in.16:18
kfox1111or it could be launched on a vm, being just iaas.16:18
kfox1111or kubernetes which is another paas, sort of...16:18
kfox1111kind of half way inbetween a paas and iaas really... :/16:18
docaedosure, but the user should be making the choice, catalog can just hold the bits and pointers (i.e. choose to run something in kubernetes maybe with Magnum, or let Murano launch/manage, or heat, or whatever)16:19
kfox1111the way I've been looking at it, is components are "things to load into openstack services", and the app catalog is "applications to run on openstack"16:20
docaedoah gotta step away for a minute but will be back - enjoying this debate :)16:20
kfox1111components don't nessisarily need dependency handling. the user is in the mindset of installing stuff.16:21
kfox1111apps, users just want to use. so some dep installing really helps that workflow.16:21
kfox1111yeah. its a good discussion to have.16:21
kfox1111so what happens when magnum comes along and says to the app catalog, we want you to support magnum bundles, which magnum handles and are just collections of magnum images and glance images? We're kind of setting an ugly precedent.16:34
docaedoIf magnum handles bundles in their own way, why can't the app catalog handle that? IMO we should aim to be agnostic - just hold assets, let the different projects make their own choices about managing all the bits that are in their own realm16:46
docaedoI think of this as something like holding RPMs and DEBs in the same directory, rather than trying to dictate how the package managers should build/manage packages16:47
docaedothere are user experience implications that come along with being agnostic and all inclusive, but I think we can solve those problems over the longer term at a much higher level (so .. uh, let's fix openstack in Tokyo!)16:49
docaedolonger term I think actually the app-catalog-ui getting into horizon is the wedge for that (because similar to oslo, we can start encouraging commonalities across projects through that)16:50
kfox1111yeah. thats what I was thinking. by being the gate keeper to the catalog, we have some ability to encurage commonality.16:55
kfox1111like common tag meanings inside the catalog, or catagories if we decide to support those.16:55
openstackgerritKevin Fox proposed stackforge/apps-catalog: Add a test server
kfox1111docaedo: can we merge that test server? Its kind of painful not having it in the branch for testing the murano changes.17:03
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docaedokfox1111: will take a quick look right now17:11
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kfox1111ok. I think I have a way forward for the murano bundle thing.17:14
kfox1111i tagged them as type bundle like a normal one, and just put the murano_package_name into the service metadata.17:15
kfox1111a little ugly, but it will show up as a normal bundle then.17:15
kfox1111its just a detail the engine has to care about.17:15
kfox1111lets not do too many of these though. :/17:16
openstackgerritKevin Fox proposed stackforge/apps-catalog: Convert Murano assets to common format.
kfox1111docaedo: what do you think of that review? It seems to fix the murano bundles again.17:36
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docaedokfox1111: will take a quick look now (then probably not back for a while, contractor here and I'm helping with some of the house stuff)17:42
openstackgerritMerged stackforge/apps-catalog: Add a test server
docaedo210487 looks great, I'm going to merge it, thanks17:46
docaedook, will swing past the computer randomly throughout the day :)17:47
kfox1111cool. thanks. :)17:51
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openstackgerritMerged stackforge/apps-catalog: Convert Murano assets to common format.
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