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| ttx | sdague: yeah, apparently it's not really oslo.rootwrap related | 08:20 |
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| * SpamapS makes sure inbox is 0 before going to sleep .. post-holiday ML blitz is imminent | 09:19 | |
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| Andre221 | Anyone online? | 10:51 |
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| rushiagr | Andre221: many :) | 10:53 |
| Andre221 | Guys....someone help me pls... I've deployed openstack havana with devstack... I can't ping an instance...it says destination host unreachable... | 10:54 |
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| Andre221 | I don't know what to do :( | 10:55 |
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| jang1 | jay-lau-513: is that you? I've no desire to accidentally sound patronising on a gerrit review ( https://review.openstack.org/#/c/64939/ ) - my objection's that this is potentially inviting surprise (and may need reverting) in the future, but if those API controllers are actually "final" I've no problem with that. | 11:23 |
| jay-lau-513 | jang1: v2 might be final, as we are going to frozen it in ice-house2 | 11:25 |
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| jay-lau-513 | jang1, but for v3, might not be final... | 11:26 |
| jang1 | my objection's a general one - I'm not accusing you of not understanding the MRO :-) | 11:26 |
| jang1 | but if anyone ever takes it into their head to mix in something with these controllers, that change'll be a pain. That's all. | 11:27 |
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| jang1 | (well, there's that, plus a smidgen of general worry about setting precedents and pedagogy, but I have no desire o be dogmatic about it) | 11:28 |
| jang1 | (stand-up here, back in 10-15) | 11:29 |
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| jay-lau-513 | ok, let me check more for this | 11:31 |
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| jay-lau-513 | jang1, please check my answer on gerrit review. thx | 11:42 |
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| jang1 | roger. | 11:50 |
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| sdague | ttx: what isn't oslo related? sorry, apparently the question was asked so long ago it's lost in the mist of time | 12:26 |
| ttx | sdague: ignore me -- was that weird review about f20 deps that oslo.rootwrap would have triggered, now abandoned | 12:27 |
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| sdague | oh right | 12:28 |
| sdague | yeh, hopefully the author on the correct fix will address the couple of issues I posted | 12:29 |
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| sdague | flaper87: as alvaro hasn't come back with fixes yet on - https://review.openstack.org/#/c/63647/, feel free to take over the patch. I'd like to get that in. | 12:32 |
| flaper87 | sdague: kk, I will | 12:33 |
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| flaper87 | sdague: also, I just ran a recheck on this one. Could you take another look? https://review.openstack.org/#/c/63754/ | 12:33 |
| sdague | so we need to take that to the list. Because this all wraps in how we handle dependecies and what we test when. | 12:34 |
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| flaper87 | sdague: kk, are you planning to do that or should I? | 12:36 |
| flaper87 | sdague: unfortunately, there's a bug I need to fix in glance that depends on this. I'd like to sort it out asap | 12:37 |
| sdague | so why doesn't oslo just release? | 12:38 |
| sdague | I feel like we went around all this with the taskflow thread, and dhellmann's pov is version numbers are cheap | 12:38 |
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| flaper87 | sdague: I admit I still have to catch up on that thread. | 12:42 |
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| flaper87 | sdague: I'll read it now | 12:42 |
| sdague | yeh, so maybe go through that, and let's see if dhellmann gets on in a bit | 12:43 |
| flaper87 | sdague: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/63647/ done! | 12:43 |
| sdague | especially now that pip 1.5 refuses to install from external urls by default now | 12:43 |
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| sdague | flaper87: you didn't remove the old fedora versions :) | 12:44 |
| sdague | which was the bulk of my -1 | 12:44 |
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| sdague | f16 and f17 definitely need to go :) | 12:44 |
| flaper87 | sdague: which I obvously didn't read! Dough! :D | 12:44 |
| flaper87 | lemme do that | 12:45 |
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| dolphm | \o/ | 13:02 |
| marekd | dolphm: o/ | 13:02 |
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| Andre221 | I don't know what to do :( | 13:40 |
| Andre221 | Guys....someone help me pls... I've deployed openstack havana with devstack... I can't ping an instance...it says destination host unreachable... | 13:40 |
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| radix | is there a gerrit search term that I can use to find changes that haven't been approved? | 15:46 |
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| sdake | radix you can add projects to your watched list | 15:47 |
| sdake | then it will show all unapproved project patches | 15:47 |
| radix | I see approved changes in that list. | 15:47 |
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| sdague | radix: https://dague.net/2013/09/27/gerrit-queries-to-avoid-openstack-review-overload/ | 15:49 |
| sdague | that should give you the patterns you are looking for | 15:50 |
| radix | hmm, I don't think it does. | 15:51 |
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| sdague | -Approved+1 | 15:51 |
| sdague | you just need to use the column names | 15:51 |
| radix | I thought "CodeReview+2" (or the negation of that), but if you search for "project:openstack/heat is:watched status:open CodeReview+2" ----- | 15:51 |
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| radix | oh. "Approved". | 15:52 |
| radix | sdague: that's not a column name ;-) | 15:52 |
| radix | okay, that's great. thanks :) | 15:52 |
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| sdague | well it's a gerrit column name :) | 15:53 |
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| therve | radix: http://ci.openstack.org/gerrit.html shows the label configured for openstack | 15:56 |
| therve | labels | 15:57 |
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| radix | man I hope I don't come up with any other reasons to refer to that page | 15:57 |
| therve | :) | 15:58 |
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| hughsaunders | Hey, whats the policy on devstack and stackforge projects? For example would rally additions for devstack be accepted? | 16:31 |
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| dtroyer | For DevStack not until incubation. Until the you should be able to use with the existing plugin mechanism to start Rally from stack.sh. Look at the marconi and Savanna scripts in extras.d for examples. | 16:36 |
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| hughsaunders | thanks dtroyer | 16:45 |
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| ayoung | "diff all side by side" should not autocheck the "reviewed" box IMNSHO | 17:00 |
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| roaet | is is expected that I should be able to run pip install nova ? | 17:31 |
| roaet | as it is on pypi and is showing up on the search | 17:31 |
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| gyee_ | jaypipes? | 18:42 |
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| jaypipes | gyee: gyee? :) | 18:43 |
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| gyee_ | jaypipes, region or region_id are optional attributes right now | 18:45 |
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| gyee_ | with your change, should they be mandatory when creating an endpoint? | 18:46 |
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| gyee_ | otherwise, you'll end up with a "null" region | 18:47 |
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| jog0 | jaypipes: ping | 19:08 |
| jgriffith | jog0: sdague I dropped 1250696 to wishlist because It's a functionality/feature enhancement for the fake driver, as opposed to a bug | 19:08 |
| jgriffith | IMO | 19:09 |
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| jgriffith | jog0: sdague I'll make sure it's worked on, but I don't see it as a med bug IMO | 19:09 |
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| jog0 | jgriffith: cool, long as it gets worked on thanks. different people say wishlist means different things | 19:10 |
| jgriffith | jog0: understood | 19:10 |
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| jgriffith | jog0: I'll make sure I free up some cycles to work on it | 19:10 |
| jog0 | jgriffith: thnx | 19:10 |
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| jaypipes | jog0: pong! | 19:16 |
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| jaypipes | gyee: the regions/ resource that was added are entirely optional. if no region specified, then there is no region to the endpoint... | 19:17 |
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| jog0 | jaypipes: woops a second to late, I just finished replying in ML | 19:17 |
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| jaypipes | jog0: no worries :) | 19:20 |
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| jaypipes | if there's anybody out there in sunny southern CA, please please send some warmth my way. -28 degree Fahrenheit wind chill in Columbus today :( | 19:35 |
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| openstackstatus | NOTICE: gating is operating at reduced capacity while we work through a systems problem (ETA 21:00 UTC) | 19:36 |
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| ayoung | jaypipes, I thought we were going to get that snap in Mass, but looks like it is only going down to 18 or so here. | 19:39 |
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| ayoung | Its a balmy 50 right now | 19:39 |
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| ayoung | which, considering how much I spent on seasonal ski rentals for the kids is making me cry | 19:39 |
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| jog0 | jaypipes: so I think we are talking past eachother here | 19:40 |
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| jog0 | jaypipes: I know rootwrap has significant overhead (although) we have made it better. the question, is in the ovs case what is the impact to neutron perf under load | 19:41 |
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| jog0 | or os the issue ovs itself | 19:42 |
| jog0 | or how we use it rather | 19:42 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, so... the cold decided to up and skip you guys? | 20:18 |
| ayoung | nah, just decided to level down to its usually level of nastiness | 20:18 |
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| ayoung | freeze everything, and then another thaw | 20:18 |
| morganfainberg | jaypipes, please take some of our ~73 degrees in pasadena. I would love ... sub 50 degree weather for more than a day or so here in SoCal (yeah yeah I know, I live in the wrong place for that ) | 20:19 |
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| jaypipes | morganfainberg: :) | 20:20 |
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| jgriffith | dhellmann: ping | 20:22 |
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| jaypipes | jog0: ah, so the issue with the __init__ of the OVS agent in Neutron is that it goes through a for loop for each compute node (with VMs on it) in the entire deployment, calling out to ovs-vsctl for each compute node, setting up the bridges and stuff. each of those loops is calling out to utils.execute() (thus incurring a call to rootwrap). But ovs-vsctl has a "batch mode", which is done in a single transaction with th | 20:23 |
| jaypipes | e ovswitchdb, where you can specifiy dozens of ports to create all in one command line call | 20:23 |
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| jog0 | jaypipes: so if the batch mode is faster because less rootwrap -- disabling rootwrap can give a quick estimate of how much faster and if thats enough | 20:25 |
| jaypipes | jog0: so what I have experienced, in our small zones (80-90 compute workers with VMs on them), is that if you restart the quantum-plugin-openvswitch-agent, it can literally take *hours* to come up, with the process constantly spawning processes calling out to ovs-vsctl... | 20:25 |
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| kfox1111 | Any keystone devs awake? | 20:26 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, awake is a relative term | 20:26 |
| jaypipes | jog0: I would do that test, but I'm no longer at AT&T employee as of today ;) | 20:26 |
| kfox1111 | hehe. ture. | 20:26 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, point being, i am significantly low on my caffeine intake.. what's up? | 20:27 |
| kfox1111 | is there any effort around standardizing some more featureful policy.json files? For example, I want to use nagios to monitor my tenant. I don't want it to be able to create/delete vms though. | 20:27 |
| kfox1111 | I'm guessing lots of other folks would like such a role. | 20:28 |
| jog0 | jaypipes: congrats! where to? | 20:28 |
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| morganfainberg | kfox1111, I'm not 100% sure, but there is the http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack/keystone/tree/etc/policy.v3cloudsample.json file. the main reason it's not the default is because it makes some assumptions the previous ones did not. | 20:28 |
| jaypipes | jog0: first day at mirantis today... | 20:29 |
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| jaypipes | jog0: and ty! | 20:29 |
| kfox1111 | morganfainberg: I noticed that. Would that apply to nova,glance,cinder,... etc? | 20:29 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, i _hope_ we move towards something like that as we progress, but it's a delicate balance to not break people. | 20:29 |
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| morganfainberg | unlikely. | 20:29 |
| morganfainberg | it's usually project specific | 20:30 |
| morganfainberg | (the policy that is) | 20:30 |
| kfox1111 | yeah. Looking at the nova one at least, it looks like it will have to break. The default is to allow everyone to do everything. | 20:30 |
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| kfox1111 | well, almost everything. | 20:30 |
| jog0 | jaypipes: enjoy | 20:30 |
| jaypipes | cheers | 20:31 |
| kfox1111 | I could create a read-only role and a read-write rule, but then the read-write user will have to be added to every current user. | 20:31 |
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| morganfainberg | kfox1111, or you could (in theory) add a read-only role and remove the read-write role from your monitoring user(s)? | 20:32 |
| morganfainberg | might be easier to take that approach | 20:32 |
| morganfainberg | oh. | 20:32 |
| morganfainberg | nova | 20:32 |
| kfox1111 | oh. another question for you. A lot of the rules are "", which the docs say is "@" which is allow it. But it still seems to be tenant scoped. Whats the difference between "@" and the "owner" thing referenced? | 20:32 |
| kfox1111 | I'm afraid I'm going to have to edit the policy files for all services to be able to make a safe read only'able user. | 20:33 |
| kfox1111 | Then maintaining all those policy files will be a pain. I'm hoping that if I do the work, that someone will be interested in it going upstream. | 20:33 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, | 20:33 |
| morganfainberg | "sane" defaults are hard to define | 20:34 |
| kfox1111 | true. | 20:34 |
| jaypipes | russellb: ping | 20:34 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, i think the idea is that policy is very much a deployer choice. | 20:34 |
| kfox1111 | the problem is, its also a tenant choice. | 20:34 |
| kfox1111 | If I'm a user of a tenant, I want to scope permissions my way, not in the limited set the cloud provider decided, right? | 20:34 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, and if we gave a crazy restrictive default policy, it might make it very hard to use openstack | 20:34 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, eh, not really. | 20:35 |
| kfox1111 | thats not what I'm suggesting. I'm saying, maybe provide some extra default roles to make it easier to do some common tasks that work on every openstack cloud. | 20:35 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, the policy is a deployer choice, if you have a rich policy that provides many roles/fine-grained control, then something like trusts is the tenant user's choice. | 20:35 |
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| russellb | jaypipes: pong | 20:36 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, but we could definitiely provide a richer (though not nessiciarily more restrictive by default) policy | 20:36 |
| morganfainberg | wow. i suddenly feel like i need to go back to typing class with the typos in that last sentence. | 20:36 |
| kfox1111 | yeah, I was looking at that too. But like you said, unless the provider gives me all the roles I need, I can't use trusts. | 20:36 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, and that might be a differentiator for a given provider. some providers may want a flat rule set that is very permissive (private cloud, internal only, etc) | 20:37 |
| kfox1111 | Could a trust be extended to contain a white list of only allowed api calls? | 20:37 |
| kfox1111 | that would acomplish what I'd need to do. | 20:37 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, trusts are delegation of a role | 20:37 |
| morganfainberg | if you can assign a role to an API call via the policy file (i.e. that call has policy enforcement supported) yes. | 20:38 |
| bknudson | 'tox -e py27' is failing for me in python-keystoneclient -- Could not find a version that satisfies the requirement netaddr>=0.7.6 | 20:38 |
| kfox1111 | so, trusts are defined to be a way for a user to give access to could provider predefined roles to another. | 20:38 |
| kfox1111 | s/could/cloud/ | 20:38 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, trusts are a delegation of role from one user to another. | 20:39 |
| kfox1111 | yeah, I'm just running up against who's defining the role's. | 20:40 |
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| jaypipes | russellb: hi. happy new year :) I'm wondering if the nova scheduler code is really a good thing to try to make into the "common scheduler" for OpenStack... notably, I'm concerned that it is too compute-db-model centric and seems to have the logic of scheduling as well as the management of the scheduling data (compute host updates, etc) all mixed together. | 20:40 |
| morganfainberg | yep. | 20:40 |
| kfox1111 | If I can create a "read-only" role for my private cloud, so I can monitor it, | 20:40 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, since it's your cloud and you're the deployer, you totally could do that | 20:40 |
| kfox1111 | then try and launch in say, rackspace's cloud, its going to work differently, if at all. | 20:40 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, and in HPs cloud it likely would also be different | 20:41 |
| russellb | jaypipes: i don't think it's ready to be the common scheduler yet, but it's something we can split out, work on decoupling from nova, and then evolve into that | 20:41 |
| russellb | baby steps | 20:41 |
| kfox1111 | I can see role's working likt this very well if you are both the cloud provider and user. if you are just a user, its going to hurt. :/ | 20:41 |
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| russellb | i'm fairly convinced that starting from scratch is going to resulting in boiling the ocean for a perfect scheduler and it will never get done | 20:41 |
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| jaypipes | russellb: wouldn't the baby steps be easier if, say, there was something like oslo.scheduler library that could be used as a common base for things? | 20:42 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, true, but in the case of rackspace cloud [i haven't looked], i am going to guess if they don't have a "read-only | 20:42 |
| russellb | a library only seems useful if the expectation is that we will have multiple schedulers sharing code | 20:42 |
| kfox1111 | maybe the policy mechanism could be extended so that there is a cloud policy/roles and a tenant policy/roles? Both sets have to pass before an api call can go through? | 20:42 |
| russellb | otherwise i'm not sure what the point of the library is | 20:42 |
| morganfainberg | " type role, it might be a legitimate/useful feature for them to provide | 20:42 |
| boris-42 | russellb we should share business logic | 20:43 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, well, in theory, policy could become more flexible with work done of the oslo-policy logic | 20:43 |
| russellb | the drive toward a single scheduler is based on the assumption that scheduling concerns of multiple projects wiill want access to the same data | 20:43 |
| kfox1111 | ah... | 20:43 |
| boris-42 | russellb yep | 20:43 |
| russellb | boris-42: ^^^ | 20:43 |
| boris-42 | russellb so our approach with no-db allows that | 20:43 |
| kfox1111 | out of curiosity, I just looked at what amazon does. They do seem to have a per tenant policy thing too. | 20:44 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, i think the policy code isn't rich enough to support the concept of extending a current policy | 20:44 |
| jaypipes | russellb: so is the goal of gantt to be the single scheduler for openstack, or just a separate service scheduler for compute? | 20:44 |
| boris-42 | russellb but why this concept is ignored I don't know | 20:44 |
| kfox1111 | http://aws.amazon.com/iam/ | 20:44 |
| russellb | it's not ignored | 20:44 |
| russellb | encouraged even | 20:44 |
| boris-42 | russellb ok | 20:44 |
| russellb | jaypipes: today, separate scheduler for compute | 20:44 |
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| russellb | longer term, it could evolve into the single scheduler though | 20:44 |
| kfox1111 | morganfainberg: Not sure it would need to extend, just do two passes, one with the cloud policy, and one with the tenants policy. both have to pass before the api call ois allowed. | 20:44 |
| russellb | seems as good of a place as any to start | 20:44 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, i think it _could_ be done. but there is also the need for a base-line policy and isolation of projects/domains/whatever that doesn't let a user affect something they shouldn't | 20:44 |
| boris-42 | russellb but it is actually very simple task | 20:45 |
| russellb | make a separate thing, then start integrating other services once we're ready | 20:45 |
| kfox1111 | yeah. | 20:45 |
| russellb | boris-42: what is? | 20:45 |
| boris-42 | russellb to make one aaS | 20:45 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, i think the issue is the policy code doesn't have that kind of isolation support, to support making a secondary policy decision | 20:45 |
| boris-42 | russellb without any big arch changes and tons and millions of patches | 20:45 |
| russellb | then go for it | 20:45 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, not that it couldn't in it's current form. | 20:45 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, just no examples/usesaves showing that | 20:45 |
| boris-42 | russellb but it is a bit different approach then in gantt | 20:46 |
| russellb | i'm not sure i agree with you, but you're welcome to try | 20:46 |
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| boris-42 | russellb what is the right way to make such effort? | 20:46 |
| boris-42 | russellb desing docs? | 20:46 |
| boris-42 | russellb or real demo? | 20:46 |
| kfox1111 | k. I'll poke around a little and see if I can easly do something like that. | 20:46 |
| kfox1111 | I'm guessing not, but it doens't hurt to look. | 20:47 |
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| morganfainberg | kfox1111, my guess is that you'll need to extend the policy oslo code. | 20:47 |
| kfox1111 | someone also mentioned a policy api in keystone. what are the plans for that? | 20:47 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, there is plans to make that more real | 20:47 |
| russellb | boris-42: design docs are always good. | 20:47 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, it exists, but has some limitations that need ot be addresed before it becomes a primary source of policy | 20:47 |
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| morganfainberg | kfox1111, it could be used, but it's sub-optimal (and i don't think anyone leverages it yet). but the concept has been to support service (e.g. nova) policy not per-tenant policy. | 20:48 |
| boris-42 | russellb okay we will try to make design docs and live demo with common Nova+CInder scheduler | 20:48 |
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| morganfainberg | kfox1111, depending on the number of tenants, and if round-trips to keystone are needed ot fetch/enforce the policy, it could become a serious bottleneck | 20:49 |
| kfox1111 | has anything happened with it in icehouse or is it unchanged since havana? | 20:49 |
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| kfox1111 | yeah. | 20:49 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, i don't think that code has changed in Icehouse as of yet | 20:49 |
| kfox1111 | ok. Then I can play with my havana system. | 20:49 |
| ayoung | different policy per tenant is probably not going to happen | 20:50 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, kfox1111, not in the current implementation | 20:50 |
| morganfainberg | and i don't see it being possible in icehouse. | 20:50 |
| kfox1111 | ayoung: why? | 20:50 |
| kfox1111 | yeah, probably a bit late for it. | 20:50 |
| morganfainberg | short of a good chunck of custom code | 20:50 |
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| * jaypipes wishes it wasn't called "scheduler" :) it really isn't scheduling anything... | 20:51 | |
| jaypipes | closer to "reserving" than "scheduling" | 20:51 |
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| ayoung | doesn't make sense | 20:52 |
| kfox1111 | to be really useful, there would have to be a tenant role UI in addition to the Cloud Provider role ui, which would be a lot of work. | 20:52 |
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| jgriffith | boris-42: I'd love to be kept in the loop, I haven't seen an "easy" solution to that problem either | 20:52 |
| kfox1111 | ayoung: why would you say that? | 20:52 |
| ayoung | policy is not designed to be that reactive. | 20:52 |
| russellb | jaypipes: yep, but fairly ingrained in openstack terminology at this point ... | 20:52 |
| ayoung | Kneejerk reaction. I fear change | 20:52 |
| jgriffith | boris-42: and there are plans to have things like "coordinated" schedulers, but I hadn't seen anybody doing a single commong scheduler yet | 20:53 |
| boris-42 | jgriffith We will show.. | 20:53 |
| kfox1111 | hehe. | 20:53 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, kfox1111, it htink it is worth considering. discuss, etc. | 20:53 |
| ayoung | seriosuly, though...I'm still reading upo | 20:53 |
| boris-42 | jgriffith we are doing | 20:53 |
| kfox1111 | Its an organizational one. | 20:53 |
| morganfainberg | i don't think it's guarenteed to make sense,. | 20:53 |
| boris-42 | jgriffith but as base we would like to use Nova | 20:53 |
| kfox1111 | a cloud provider is one entity usually. | 20:53 |
| jgriffith | boris-42: great, looking forward to it | 20:53 |
| boris-42 | jgriffith if you would like I could introduce you | 20:53 |
| morganfainberg | i also am not convinced there is enough demand to make per-tenant, per-domain, per-whatever policy (we might have bigger fish to fry on the policy front first) | 20:53 |
| kfox1111 | another organization may have a tenant on multplile clouds. | 20:53 |
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| boris-42 | jgriffith the idea is actually simple | 20:54 |
| kfox1111 | as that sort of organization, it would be nice if I could manage the tenants the same way, they are all openstack after all. | 20:54 |
| jgriffith | boris-42: sure | 20:54 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, this might be an argument for ABAC instead of RBAC. | 20:54 |
| ayoung | OK...so right now, we don't even really cleanly enforce policy on end objects...but that is changing | 20:54 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, hold on....think that is jumping way ahead | 20:54 |
| kfox1111 | morganfainberg: True. If the default set of roles were featureful enough, I might just use those. | 20:54 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, but that is neither here nor there | 20:55 |
| boris-42 | jgriffith here ? | 20:55 |
| ayoung | kfox1111, yeah...that is more the idea | 20:55 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, ^ | 20:55 |
| boris-42 | jgriffith or in openstack-cinder? | 20:55 |
| ayoung | and I think making it easier to develop more roles.... | 20:55 |
| jgriffith | boris-42: either is fine I'm in both :) | 20:55 |
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| jgriffith | cinder is good, there's less conversation there currently | 20:55 |
| ayoung | something along the lines of "what is the least privilidge needed" | 20:55 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, if policy was very clean now, i think it would be easier to progress down this path and move beyond deployer-choices | 20:56 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, but like i said, bigger fish to fry (clean policy enforcement and consistency) | 20:56 |
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| ayoung | RBAC needs to be easier to manage | 20:56 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, ++ | 20:56 |
| ayoung | specifically...I want to delegate just X | 20:56 |
| ayoung | where X is something I can doi | 20:57 |
| kfox1111 | sure. | 20:57 |
| ayoung | I can't even delegate roles to myself right now | 20:57 |
| ayoung | I mean, only with trusts | 20:57 |
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| ayoung | but I can't create a token that doens't have my complete role set | 20:57 |
| kfox1111 | ayoung: Yeah. But without every cloud provider creating lots of useful roles, and better yet being consistant, trusts are not very useful. | 20:57 |
| ayoung | its like the jailor in a bad western walking around with keys to all the cells | 20:57 |
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| morganfainberg | kfox1111, this might be a broader argument that "RBAC" is insufficient for consistency between clouds. | 20:58 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, but thats a big step to make (e.g. ABAC or similar alternatives) | 20:58 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, heh | 20:58 |
| kfox1111 | I think rbac can be consistant, so long as everyone's using the same roles. | 20:58 |
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| kfox1111 | its open source philosophy. Right now, people are expected to fork the code in policy.json | 20:59 |
| kfox1111 | forks are hard to keep compatible. | 20:59 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, well.. policy.json is more configuration than code. | 21:00 |
| kfox1111 | since authorization is at the heart of all the cloud api, | 21:00 |
| kfox1111 | then the cloud api behaves differently. :/ | 21:00 |
| ayoung | kfox1111, you are right. It is all really code, not config | 21:00 |
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| morganfainberg | kfox1111, in the sense of where it lives... and who's responsible for it | 21:01 |
| morganfainberg | kfox1111, which is the heart of your complaint | 21:01 |
| kfox1111 | yeah. Not entirely sure what to do about it. just brainstorming. | 21:01 |
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| kfox1111 | the problem is, its kind of both. Its config for those who want to write custom authorization rules. Its code to those who need to consume it. :/ | 21:02 |
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| kfox1111 | So, RDO did something interesting. They broke their config files up into two... | 21:04 |
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| kfox1111 | /usr/share/nova/nova-defaults.conf is where the distro provides all of their default config options, and /etc/nova/nova.conf is for the cloud provider to override things. | 21:05 |
| ayoung | kfox1111, I think what we need is an analysis of how people need to use Keystone, and what the right default set of roles would be. Same for the other services. Its been my suspicion that the main distinction is going to be "I can read but not write" versues "I can write" for a particular kind of resource, with the boundaries for that read/write/no access decision being the porject/tenant boundary with | 21:05 |
| ayoung | heh | 21:05 |
| bknudson | btw - if anybody else runs into a problem running tox in python-keystoneclient : https://review.openstack.org/#/c/65149/ | 21:05 |
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| ayoung | project/tenant boundary | 21:05 |
| kfox1111 | maybe a start would be a openstack provided set of roles, and then the cloud provider can add some custom ones on top. | 21:05 |
| ayoung | bknudson, does that give me back the ability to stop at first failure? | 21:06 |
| morganfainberg | bknudson, oh fun. | 21:06 |
| bknudson | ayoung: no, it just makes tox work again. | 21:06 |
| * ayoung can dream | 21:06 | |
| bknudson | ayoung: I don't know how to tell testr how to stop at first failure? | 21:06 |
| kfox1111 | ayoung: yeah. some use cases would be great. I can give you too off the bat. nagios monitoring my tenant, and a second one: | 21:06 |
| bknudson | seems like it would be difficult if running in parallel. | 21:07 |
| kfox1111 | I have a continuous integration system building currently up to date distro's for me. I'd like it to be able to upload images and delete images that have not had a running instance running for the past 30 days. | 21:07 |
| ayoung | bknudson, I don't think it is supported | 21:07 |
| kfox1111 | the second one would only need nova instance list and full glance access. | 21:07 |
| ayoung | bknudson, --until-failure means something very different | 21:07 |
| ayoung | kfox1111, so...lets start with those | 21:08 |
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| ayoung | images....big differnece between an image used by all projects and one used exclusivly within a single project | 21:08 |
| kfox1111 | sure. | 21:09 |
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| kfox1111 | I'm ok it managing images only for the tenant it is managing it for. | 21:10 |
| ZZelle | or an image used by multiples projects | 21:10 |
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| kenperkins | ok, am I missing something? how does one add a comment to a code review? | 21:15 |
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| russellb | kenperkins: log in first :-) | 21:17 |
| kenperkins | I am logged in | 21:17 |
| russellb | kenperkins: then you can comment inline with patches, or if you just want to leave a general comment, click "Review" | 21:17 |
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| kenperkins | talk about the least discoverable method | 21:17 |
| kenperkins | thanks tho russellb that was it | 21:18 |
| russellb | kenperkins: np | 21:18 |
| kfox1111 | since we | 21:19 |
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| kfox1111 | ve been talking, I've been looking at amazon's IAM stuff further. | 21:19 |
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| kfox1111 | They do seem to support per tenant policy: | 21:20 |
| kfox1111 | http://docs.aws.amazon.com/IAM/latest/UserGuide/ManagingPolicies.html | 21:20 |
| kfox1111 | Though it looks like its managed at the tenant level, but assigned to a user like a role. | 21:20 |
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| ayoung | kfox1111, since role assignment is per project (please stop calling it tenant) we need to be able to define finer grained roles...what if... | 21:25 |
| ayoung | we create role nesting? | 21:25 |
| ayoung | role "admin" means "all roles on the project" | 21:26 |
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| ayoung | role "user-reader" "user-writer" and so forth could be composed into larger roles, etc | 21:26 |
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| kfox1111 | ayoung: Sorry, I came around when tenant was the thing to call it, and its been hard to change. I'll try. | 21:27 |
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| ayoung | kfox1111, yeah, I know. Programming is like sex. Make one mistake and support it for the rest of your life. | 21:27 |
| kfox1111 | :) | 21:27 |
| kfox1111 | Well, you could do the nesting with groups I think? | 21:28 |
| kfox1111 | define the fine grained roles, andd roles to groups, and users to groups. | 21:28 |
| ayoung | kfox1111, anyway, we need a way to be able to specify granular permissions. ABAC, as morganfainberg suggested is probably the most granular approach to that. RBAC is an attempt to insulate people from the actual details. But someone needs to know and manage the details | 21:29 |
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| kfox1111 | At that point, to be most flexable, each api target would just have a corisponding role, and everything gets pushed out into groups. Very flexable, but maybe a pain. | 21:29 |
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| morganfainberg | personally i'm a fan of ABAC | 21:30 |
| morganfainberg | but i can see the reasons not to go down that path (pain for the end user) | 21:30 |
| kfox1111 | not sure I know the term ABAC. | 21:30 |
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| kfox1111 | whats the A? | 21:30 |
| morganfainberg | attribute based vs role based | 21:30 |
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| kfox1111 | ah. ok. | 21:31 |
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| dhellmann | jgriffith: pong | 21:31 |
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| jgriffith | dhellmann: I wanted to get your thoughts on some things for oslo-incubator if you have a moment? | 21:33 |
| dhellmann | jgriffith: sure | 21:33 |
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| jgriffith | dhellmann: so I think we chatted briefly on the train in HK :) but I don't know where we got to or left off | 21:33 |
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| jgriffith | dhellmann: it's pertaining to the iscsi and lvm code in multiple projects | 21:34 |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: what's known as brick components in Cinder today | 21:34 |
| dhellmann | that seems vaguely familiar | 21:34 |
| jgriffith | https://github.com/openstack/cinder/tree/master/cinder/brick | 21:34 |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: so I had an initial plan of creating a "brick" library | 21:34 |
| jgriffith | but to be honest it seems like that's really what OSLO is for | 21:35 |
| jgriffith | and for example we have taskflow which is a lib and hit some unexpected problems from not putting it in OSLO first | 21:35 |
| dhellmann | the idea with the incubator is to collect code that needs time to mature, but we still want to share | 21:35 |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: right... so I'm not sure on the mature piece yet | 21:35 |
| jgriffith | :) | 21:35 |
| dhellmann | well, the issues there are actually because we're not syncing our requirements to taskflow, not that it is a library already | 21:35 |
| kfox1111 | hmm... what about a trust policy instead of tenant? The trustor privides a policy stating what api accesses will be allowed/denied? If no policy, its simply role based? | 21:36 |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: a few weeks ago I was certain it was "mature" however in the past few weeks there's been a lot of churning and updating | 21:36 |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: oh.. right, I didn't mean that... I meant in terms of process, gating tests etc | 21:36 |
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| dhellmann | yeah, with brick I think it's clear that the resulting library will be owned by openstack (no one else is likely to be using it, right?) | 21:36 |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: so I started with this: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/openstack-common/+spec/add-lvm-module | 21:37 |
| kfox1111 | for a given user then, the simplies policy is something like "default: !" and a few @'s to white list things. | 21:37 |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: correct | 21:37 |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: it's def geared towards openstack | 21:37 |
| dhellmann | ok, in that case we won't have the requirements issue we have with taskflow | 21:37 |
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| jgriffith | dhellmann: I suppose anybody could use it externally but I have no design plans aroudn that | 21:37 |
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| jgriffith | dhellmann: ahhh... good point | 21:37 |
| dhellmann | we can put it in the incubator, and then graduate it to either an "oslo" library or just a cinder library -- it depends on who is going to manage the code | 21:38 |
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| kfox1111 | heh. I can't type today either. s/simplies/simple/' | 21:38 |
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| jgriffith | dhellmann: so TBH I'd be great with creating a cinder lib and keeping management under Cinder | 21:38 |
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| jgriffith | dhellmann: I just want to make sure the rest of the projects are good with that approach | 21:38 |
| dhellmann | sure, it works for me | 21:38 |
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| jgriffith | dhellmann: Ok.. that might be better in the long run | 21:39 |
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| jgriffith | dhellmann: plus it would all be a single contained lib which would be convenient for a number of reasons | 21:39 |
| dhellmann | we'll need to figure out things like the name and how to set up a repo for you, but that's not a big deal | 21:39 |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: yeah, those would be my next questions/steps :) | 21:39 |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: I'll abandon that patch for now and close the bp | 21:39 |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: I'll go back to starting a new lib | 21:40 |
| dhellmann | if you want to call it cinder.brick you'd have to make cinder a namespace package | 21:40 |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: I was thinking "openstack/brick" | 21:40 |
| dhellmann | I'm not sure about calling it oslo.brick if it's not part of oslo (I just haven't considered that case) | 21:40 |
| jgriffith | just to alleviate that sort of thing | 21:40 |
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| kfox1111 | that would allow the type of policies I'd like to restrict a trust down to, to be very small and usable. | 21:40 |
| dhellmann | yeah, we haven't used the openstack package namespace yet, ironically | 21:40 |
| dhellmann | maybe that is the right approach in this case, though | 21:40 |
| jgriffith | Oh... ha | 21:40 |
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| jgriffith | I guess we haven't...I never noticed that | 21:41 |
| jaypipes | annegentle_: is there a havana equiv for http://docs.openstack.org/grizzly/openstack-network/admin/content/? | 21:41 |
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| jgriffith | dhellmann: alright, well I'll start looking at some of tthe details here | 21:42 |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: I'll likely be asking you for some advice/help on the structure | 21:42 |
| dhellmann | jgriffith: yeah, loop in ttx, markmc, and jeblair -- I'm sure they'll have good insights | 21:42 |
| annegentle_ | jaypipes: no, that guide has been deprecated, moved into the Cloud Admin Guide at http://docs.openstack.org/admin-guide-cloud/content/ BUT there is a current discussion on the docs ML to write a new networking only guide | 21:42 |
| dhellmann | jgriffith: just let me know how I can help :-) | 21:42 |
| jgriffith | dhellmann: sounds good.. thanks a lot for walking through it with me | 21:42 |
| dhellmann | no trouble at alL! | 21:42 |
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| ayoung | morganfainberg, so...I see ABAC as the implementation side, and RBAC as the management side. I don't want to have to determine policy a-priori on every last attribute, but I do want to be able to delegate down to the attribute | 21:45 |
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| jaypipes | annegentle_: ok, ty! | 21:48 |
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| ayoung | kfox1111, I think that is sortof what I've been leaning toward, but I would state it like this: a user can only delegate things that they have RBAC access to already. Beyond that, they can state "this token can do only X,Y,Z" | 21:51 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, i think that it would be awesome to use RBAC to assign the available attributes to the user(s) and you can let delegation be either attribute or role | 21:52 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, but i wouldn't ever argue against the role abstraction | 21:52 |
| morganfainberg | delegation = something like trusts | 21:52 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, thing is, we don't havea clean way to map role to attribute. Its all at the API level right now. | 21:52 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, yep, future looking ABAC could be awesome.. now... not really that useful/other things need love before really making ABAC mapped like that | 21:53 |
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| ayoung | so if you could look at role R and see "ah, it allows access to atrributes X,Y,Z on objects of type T" you can then figure out that a user with Role R assigned in a Project can delegate access to those attributes | 21:53 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, I'm alomost wondering if each API should be a role. | 21:54 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, possible. | 21:54 |
| ayoung | And then have mega roles that collect up API level roles | 21:54 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, though i would argue that the underlying roles likely should be hard-coded | 21:54 |
| morganfainberg | if each api is a role | 21:54 |
| morganfainberg | making them... more of an attribute | 21:54 |
| morganfainberg | but, i'd need to think more on that | 21:55 |
| morganfainberg | to commit to that design being "correct" | 21:55 |
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| ayoung | morganfainberg, what if instead we allowed a token to specify what API calls it was allowed to call on? | 21:56 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, for example, say nova uploads a policy file | 21:57 |
| ayoung | a user has Role R on project P, which gives them access to "reboot_vm" | 21:57 |
| ayoung | I can create a token that has the "reboot_vm" API call stamped in it | 21:57 |
| ayoung | and only that API | 21:57 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, sure? | 22:03 |
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| ayoung | morganfainberg, we'd need a way a use can say "what can I do with the roles that I have" and that might scare some people | 22:04 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, yeah. | 22:04 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, personally, i like that design. | 22:05 |
| ayoung | Juno | 22:05 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, aye | 22:05 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, which means I should start working on it once I2 is cut | 22:06 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, ++ let me know if you need any help | 22:06 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, also, i think that could make things like "can i do blah" in horizon even better | 22:06 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, that was where the idea came from | 22:06 |
| morganfainberg | grey out things you _can't_ do. or just not render | 22:06 |
| ayoung | Gabe Hurley and I discussed it back at the Havana Summit | 22:07 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, i think delegation should be able to be either an attribute (erm... "reboot vm" example) or a whole role. | 22:07 |
| morganfainberg | e.g. "do lots of stuff" | 22:07 |
| morganfainberg | or more than one thing. | 22:07 |
| morganfainberg | you know? | 22:07 |
| ayoung | so, the question is...what roles make sense? | 22:07 |
| ayoung | I wish we had a way to deduce that from data. | 22:08 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, yeah. you mean from a default role sense? | 22:08 |
| morganfainberg | e.g. the aggregation concepts (i.e. i can do <items> if i am <role>)? | 22:08 |
| morganfainberg | wow, i.e. e.g. i.e. | 22:08 |
| * morganfainberg hangs head in shame | 22:09 | |
| ayoung | EIEIO | 22:09 |
| morganfainberg | lol | 22:09 |
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| morganfainberg | this might need some modifications to the policy.py stuff | 22:10 |
| morganfainberg | not sure though | 22:10 |
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| ayoung | nah, just enforcement | 22:14 |
| ayoung | which is, I think, all over the place | 22:14 |
| ayoung | policy.py is for role matches and the like, but we wouldn't do explicit rules for each API | 22:15 |
| ayoung | it would have to be "in addition to" the Role being in the token | 22:15 |
| ayoung | so the current policy stuff would pass, and then, if there is an explicit API level delegation, layer that on, too | 22:16 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, hm. ok | 22:17 |
| ayoung | morganfainberg, I've planted the seed of the idea. We have enough other tasks to keep us busy as it germinates | 22:17 |
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| morganfainberg | ayoung, hehe | 22:18 |
| morganfainberg | ayoung, aye. | 22:18 |
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| jamielennox | ayoung: the email about MD5 - is that regarding PKI tokens? | 22:41 |
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| ayoung | jamielennox|away, yes | 22:53 |
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| jamielennox | ayoung: wouldn't that be handled by the attributes in the CMS if we allow the creation algorithm to be specified | 23:02 |
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| ZZelle | mikal, ping | 23:05 |
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| gyee_ | morganfainberg? | 23:35 |
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| ZZelle | jog0, hi | 23:37 |
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| morganfainberg | gyee_, pongh | 23:50 |
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| gyee_ | morganfainberg, fabio's on a month-long vacation and asked me to finish this one up for him. https://review.openstack.org/#/c/57811/20 | 23:51 |
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| morganfainberg | gyee, ah np | 23:51 |
| gyee_ | I am trying to figure-out what's needed | 23:51 |
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| gyee_ | first, how do I restore the review on behalf of fabio? | 23:51 |
| gyee_ | is that even possible | 23:51 |
| jamielennox | gyee_: i think the core infrastructure team has permissions to restore on behalf of others but that's all | 23:52 |
| gyee_ | k | 23:52 |
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| gyee_ | jamielennox, it won't automatically restore if I push a patch on top of it right? | 23:53 |
| morganfainberg | gyee_, you can ask infra to resurrect it | 23:54 |
| jamielennox | gyee_: no it will fail | 23:54 |
| morganfainberg | or.. just make a new review | 23:54 |
| gyee_ | k | 23:54 |
| morganfainberg | infra usually can quickly pull things back.. but they might be busy today | 23:54 |
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| gyee_ | morganfainberg, I like the provider hook you suggested btw | 23:54 |
| morganfainberg | :) | 23:54 |
| morganfainberg | that was the original thought i had, but it was hard to communicate it w/o code | 23:54 |
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| gyee_ | I am going to make a slight changes. Registering actions via decoration seem a bit overkill as we only have three actions | 23:55 |
| morganfainberg | i just wish i had been able to do the demo code earlier (so it would have helped fabio earlier on) | 23:55 |
| gyee_ | I don't want to register every they are invoked | 23:55 |
| morganfainberg | gyee_, sec. | 23:56 |
| gyee_ | but other than that, I agree with everything there | 23:56 |
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| morganfainberg | gyee_, the registration only occurs at import time | 23:56 |
| morganfainberg | not on invocation | 23:56 |
| morganfainberg | https://github.com/morganfainberg/keystone/blob/ext_notify_impl/keystone/notifications.py#L29 | 23:56 |
| morganfainberg | it's the magic of decorators | 23:57 |
| morganfainberg | at import it runs the @_register_notification_action code, which returns the "wrapper" as the last line | 23:57 |
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| morganfainberg | but replacing it is fine. | 23:57 |
| morganfainberg | there really is no reason to do something quite as heavy | 23:57 |
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| morganfainberg | (it was just a thought if we would have a ton of different actions in the future) | 23:58 |
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| gyee_ | k, I'll hardcode the actions for now | 23:58 |
| gyee_ | I don't think we are going to have that many actions to notify | 23:58 |
| morganfainberg | yeah, it was trying to limit the places to change for adding new acitons, but it is a silly pre-optimisation | 23:58 |
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| gyee_ | morganfainberg, cool, lemme work on it | 23:59 |
| morganfainberg | sounds good :) | 23:59 |
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