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| jaypipes | dansmith: sure, go for it. | 01:48 |
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| vsaienko | morning openstack-dev! | 06:10 |
| vsaienko | devstack-gate core please help to merge https://review.openstack.org/#/c/305270/ | 06:11 |
| vsaienko | it is onle line patch that fixes OS_TEMPEST_TEST timeout for Ironic jobs. | 06:11 |
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| -openstackstatus- NOTICE: pip 8.1.2 broke our local python mirror, some jobs will fail with "No matching distribution found". We're investigating. Do not "recheck" until the issue is solved | 07:05 | |
| *** ChanServ changes topic to "pip 8.1.2 broke our local python mirror, some jobs will fail with "No matching distribution found". We're investigating. Do not "recheck" until the issue is solved" | 07:05 | |
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| hferenc | hi all | 07:43 |
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| hferenc | if someone here knows the solution for this problem: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-infra/2016-May/004215.html then please help me | 07:45 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: update management expectations for release tags https://review.openstack.org/308045 | 09:21 |
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| openstackgerrit | Merged openstack/governance: Change OpenStack-Ansible release model to cycle-trailing https://review.openstack.org/297297 | 09:22 |
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| sdague | dhellmann: ok, on https://review.openstack.org/#/c/314595/ (the paramiko bump) I feel like there remains a communications gap, because your last comment implies that you believe other projects need fixes for the bump. | 11:27 |
| sdague | but, to the best of my exploration, they do not | 11:27 |
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| dhellmann | sdague: I was going to approve your paramiko update patch but noticed the thread about the gate being stuck because of the pip update. How are things looking now? Safe to update? | 12:39 |
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| sdague | dhellmann: yes, now safe | 12:40 |
| dhellmann | sdague: ok | 12:40 |
| sdague | -openstackstatus/#openstack-dev- NOTICE: We have a workaround for our mirrors to attempt to translate package names if a match isn't immediately obvious. A more complete fix is yet to come. It is now safe to 'recheck' any jobs that failed due to "No matching distribution found". Please join #openstack-infra if you discover more problems. | 12:40 |
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| dhellmann | approved | 12:41 |
| sdague | dhellmann: thanks | 12:41 |
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| dansmith | dhellmann: I can remove this 2011 document about how to release cactus, right? https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/OldHowToRelease | 13:31 |
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| morgan | dansmith: how will we know how to release cactus then!? :P | 13:47 |
| dansmith | somehow I think we'll manage | 13:48 |
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| dhellmann | dansmith : let me print out a copy to archive it first? ;-) | 14:16 |
| dansmith | dhellmann: that is .. sarcasm, right? :) | 14:16 |
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| dhellmann | dansmith : yes? | 14:17 |
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| dhellmann | dansmith : done, go ahead and delete the page :-) | 14:17 |
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| * dansmith really hopes a machine did not emit a sheet of paper at dhellmann's location | 14:18 | |
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| dansmith | le poof | 14:18 |
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| dhellmann | dansmith : nah, it's just fun to pretend | 14:18 |
| dansmith | heh | 14:18 |
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| dims | great email dtroyer | 14:21 |
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| sdague | dansmith: we should create a twitter handle of YeOldeOpenStack, and have every delete to the wiki post a screen shot of the page there | 14:39 |
| dansmith | sdague: heh, yeah | 14:39 |
| sdague | it's kind of amazing the number of pages that having been touched since the moin import | 14:39 |
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| sdague | dansmith: more good pages to delete - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/DiabloReleaseSchedule | 14:43 |
| dansmith | sdague: yeah, I'm killing all of those | 14:43 |
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| dansmith | sdague: already did bexar and cactus | 14:43 |
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| dansmith | sdague: was going to ask ttx if it's okay to delete all governance/* things | 14:44 |
| sdague | dansmith: good call | 14:44 |
| dansmith | because surely those are wrong now, | 14:44 |
| dansmith | and indexed into google | 14:44 |
| sdague | dansmith: any idea who gave you delete perms? | 14:44 |
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| ttx | so, the reason why deleting is not good is that you lose Google juice | 14:44 |
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| ttx | In some cases it's good to lose it I guess, but I know that's why people were resistant giving out delete prvs in the past | 14:45 |
| dansmith | sdague: jeblair, but he already told me he doesn't trust you | 14:45 |
| sdague | dansmith: ok, less for me to do! :) | 14:45 |
| ttx | /some/ people said back then that you should never delete but always redirect | 14:45 |
| dansmith | ttx: multiple people have said they want fewer people heading to the wiki from google searches, so not sure why that's not good | 14:46 |
| dansmith | ttx: you don't get a 404 when you delete.. does that still mean it's a problem? | 14:46 |
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| ttx | I was not the one panicking at the idea of losing the Google Juice | 14:46 |
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| sdague | ttx: ok, I guess we just need to figure out what our strategy is around deletes. because on the one hand, there is a complaint that it's not currated. But on the other hand, there is a complaint that people find inaccurate stuff. And on the third hand there is the possibility of deleting the whole site | 14:47 |
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| ttx | The first stage was/is to move out all reference content somewhere else | 14:47 |
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| ttx | to the point where giving out delete privs is not really a problem | 14:48 |
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| ttx | I'm not sure we are there yet | 14:48 |
| ttx | sdague: the issue always was that we used the wiki for canonical information | 14:49 |
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| ttx | dansmith: I think there is critical things under governance, like Board meeting minutes | 14:49 |
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| ttx | and election historical pages | 14:49 |
| * ttx looks | 14:50 | |
| dansmith | so we want to keep things like this? https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/ElectionsSpring2012/Eoghan_Glynn | 14:50 |
| dansmith | I guess I'm not sure why | 14:50 |
| ttx | I'm pretty sure we want to keep election results | 14:50 |
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| sdague | ttx: I would agree that that use of the wiki isn't what the wiki should be used for | 14:50 |
| sdague | also, the stuff where bots update the wiki, same thing | 14:51 |
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| ttx | oh right, that's a use case I should add | 14:51 |
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| ttx | to https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/wiki-use-cases | 14:51 |
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| sdague | and, I have no problem getting that stuff out of there, but it's useful that rbradfor has just gone fixing the sprint docs on his own - https://wiki.openstack.org/w/index.php?title=NovaAPIRef&action=history | 14:52 |
| sdague | as a for instance | 14:53 |
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| ttx | dansmith: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/Foundation has all the board meeting information. Pretty sure they will be unhappy if you delete it | 14:53 |
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| dansmith | ttx: right, but that was updated in 2016 | 14:53 |
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| dansmith | so clearly not a candidate | 14:53 |
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| dansmith | I'm talking about governance docs that appear to be policy recorded on the wki | 14:54 |
| dansmith | from 2013 | 14:54 |
| ttx | I thought you said "delete all governance/* things" | 14:54 |
| dansmith | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/Approved/StopgapPointReleases | 14:54 |
| dansmith | for example | 14:54 |
| dansmith | ttx: I did, but I meant "super old ... " in front :) | 14:54 |
| sdague | like all the stuff which is just moinmoin import | 14:55 |
| dansmith | maybe I should leave governance/* to someone TC-level or above anyway | 14:55 |
| dansmith | I'm just a peon | 14:55 |
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| ttx | the TC stuff was moved away from the wiki, so board level | 14:55 |
| ttx | only think TC-related left here is the meeting agenda | 14:55 |
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| ttx | and I guess elections | 14:55 |
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| dansmith | there are also tons of "people pages" there from the import | 14:56 |
| dansmith | which I would think we could nuke | 14:56 |
| ttx | dansmith: how about we wait to see how people fill the etherpad (listing "current" use cases) so that it's easier to remove entire sessions that are nobody's use case anymore ? | 14:56 |
| ttx | sections* | 14:56 |
| ttx | dansmith: feel fre to clean up anything under Nova/ though :) | 14:57 |
| dansmith | the people pages aren't namespaced, | 14:57 |
| dansmith | nor is much of the nova stuff | 14:57 |
| ttx | anything *Nova* then | 14:57 |
| dansmith | because there is stuff from when openstack==nova | 14:57 |
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| ttx | heresy! | 14:57 |
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| dims | lol ttx | 14:58 |
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| sdague | ttx: there is kind of so much cruft. I think that in these kinds of cases doing spring cleaning helps scope down the problem more naturally. | 14:59 |
| ttx | I feel like once the use-cases etherpad is filled it will be pretty obvious that it's easier to remove everything that is not listed, rather than consider pages one-by-one | 14:59 |
| sdague | ttx: that assumes that people understand what's in the wiki | 14:59 |
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| sdague | and the process of going through and deleting stuff helps you discover use cases people forgot about | 15:00 |
| ttx | sdague: considering pages one-by-one requires ability to unilaterally decide if something is relevant and accurate | 15:00 |
| sdague | ttx: sure | 15:00 |
| sdague | which requires trust | 15:00 |
| ttx | but if you start by asking everyone which pages are still in use, you could just remove everything else | 15:00 |
| sdague | ttx: assuming people actually remember to answer in time | 15:00 |
| ttx | or at least know what you shouldn't be touching | 15:01 |
| dansmith | ttx: the wiki is far from organized enough to expect this isn't going to be largely a one-by-one effort | 15:01 |
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| tristanC | ttx: about election documentation on the wiki, there is already a spec to use a dedicated site/page: http://specs.openstack.org/openstack-infra/infra-specs/specs/add-elections.openstack.org.html | 15:02 |
| ttx | tristanC: right | 15:02 |
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| ttx | sdague: it feels like the big remaining use case for the wiki (once everything has been properly transitioned to proper locations) is team-specific information / pages / meeting agendas | 15:04 |
| ttx | in a large sense of "team" | 15:04 |
| ttx | in which case outdated information is (1) less likely to happen (2) less likely to hurt "OpenStack" if present (3) more clearly belongs to a specific team | 15:05 |
| dansmith | ttx: you put out a call on the openstack list only to fill out the above use cases doc? | 15:05 |
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| dansmith | I know you pasted a link to the thread buried in a looong thread not originally about wiki stuff, but surely that's not going to get a massive amount of the -dev community to see/act right? | 15:05 |
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| ttx | I posted a new thread on the openstack general list yes. Plus a link to it in that long thread about wiki | 15:06 |
| ttx | feel free to create yet another post linking to it if you fear that will be overlooked by the dev community. But at this stage I think I know pretty welkl how the dev community uses the wiki, it's everyone else that I don't know for sure | 15:06 |
| dansmith | the thread was about team blogs, and threading-wise, your wiki subject change is buried below :/ | 15:07 |
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| dansmith | mmkay | 15:07 |
| jroll | ttx: might be worth copying -ops list as well, not sure how they use the wiki | 15:07 |
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| ttx | Isn't everyone following the general list ? Oh wait | 15:09 |
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| sdague | ttx: pretty sure I unsubscribed a while ago | 15:09 |
| jroll | even if they are, they might not pay attention as much | 15:09 |
| sdague | oh, no, I'm still on it, I just ignore it | 15:09 |
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| ttx | some people don't read MLs at all and only rant on twitter, does that mean I have to cross-post there too ? | 15:11 |
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| ttx | I like how people personal choices of ignoring some communication media means the person trying to reach out has to cross-post to 10 different places | 15:12 |
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| ttx | even if some places are designated as being where cross-community discussion shall happen | 15:13 |
| sdague | ttx: you've looked at the kind of traffic the general list is right? | 15:13 |
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| ttx | mostly because people decided to ignore it and turn it into the /dev/null of user requetss | 15:13 |
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| ttx | oh well | 15:14 |
| ttx | Let's cross-post everywhere | 15:14 |
| kashyap | sdague: Randomly chiming here, "general list" meaning, you mean the general -devel list? Or the general discussion list? | 15:14 |
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| sdague | anyway, regardless of communication. Right now there is a volunteer that is working to prune a bunch of cruft out of the wiki. I think telling folks to stop doing a productive thing until we can take it to committee seems... odd. | 15:15 |
| kashyap | I'd take you mean: openstack@lists.openstack.org | 15:15 |
| sdague | kashyap: the general discussion list | 15:15 |
| kashyap | Yep | 15:15 |
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| ttx | sdague: prune away. All I'm saying is there is a reason why we didn't prune it before, and that's because some people feel like you have no right to unilaterally remove their content, outdated as it is | 15:16 |
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| kashyap | ttx: Any reason why -operator list is not CCed for this useful post? -- http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack/2016-May/016154.html . FWIW, I only follow the -devel list & the -operator list for specific terms. | 15:17 |
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| sdague | ttx: well, we could propose that anyone who wants that needs to leave a comment on the page once a year which is "don't delete" | 15:17 |
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| * rbradfor reads back to see what I did now! | 15:17 | |
| jroll | kashyap: see above, that's what I just recommended :) | 15:18 |
| sdague | rbradfor: you did a good thing, which I want to continue to allow to happen | 15:18 |
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| kashyap | jroll: Sorry, trying to cope with mind-numbing amounts of scroll in different channels | 15:18 |
| ttx | kashyap: then you must have missed step one in https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/How_To_Contribute | 15:18 |
| jroll | kashyap: I feel your pain | 15:18 |
| ttx | but then you aren't the only one | 15:18 |
| kashyap | ttx: I've heard active contributors proudly exclaim they don't even follow -devel list. | 15:19 |
| kashyap | Not (?) complaning about them... | 15:19 |
| ttx | kashyap: perfect | 15:19 |
| jroll | well that's... silly | 15:19 |
| jroll | (though I know there are plenty that don't keep up well on it) | 15:19 |
| sdague | right, I don't think devs not following -devel is a thing | 15:20 |
| sdague | that we should accept as ok | 15:20 |
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| sdague | but, openstack@ | 15:20 |
| sdague | is different | 15:20 |
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| ttx | because you decide it's different ? | 15:20 |
| kashyap | jroll: Seems some devs don't want to invest time in ability to cope with multiple high-traffic mailing lists | 15:20 |
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| kashyap | sdague: I meant _some_...Not all. | 15:21 |
| rbradfor | sdague, I've been reading the delete a the wiki, but I do not agree. The wiki has a purpose for information, that can be added to when an observation is made. | 15:21 |
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| rbradfor | the argument that the wiki has stale content, well the Internet(s) have stale content. | 15:21 |
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| ttx | I'm fine with us removing openstack@ (which sole purpose is to be a general forum), but saying ignoring one is fine but not the other... feels weird to me | 15:22 |
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| jroll | kashyap: well, it's important to remember that some devs either 1) don't get paid to work on openstack, or 2) only get so many hours per week to work on openstack. | 15:22 |
| kashyap | jroll: Absolutely, I don't mean that people _should_ follow them. | 15:22 |
| jroll | in the case of (2), if the number of hours is low enough, they'll spend most of their time on the lists | 15:22 |
| rbradfor | what is needed is a relevance indicator, in the case of OpenStack that's more a duration expiry. Even pages now can have. This information is applicable until X. Unless people edit the page in the future and update X, well it automatically becomes irrelevent over time. | 15:23 |
| jroll | ah ok, sure | 15:23 |
| sdague | ttx: even in our guide - https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/How_To_Contribute#If_you.27re_a_developer | 15:23 |
| sdague | it only says join the devel list | 15:23 |
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| ttx | Step 1 at the top of the doc is "join the MLs" and step 1 on that doc is "join the general list" | 15:23 |
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| kashyap | jroll: FWIW, I myself don't spend 100% time on OpenStack -- It's split between OpenStack & lower-layer virt components, which themselves are high-traffic mailing lists. | 15:23 |
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| kashyap | jroll: Sure. There are many who mostly engage on reviews -- that's their choice, and they know how best their time is spent. | 15:24 |
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| jroll | kashyap: yep, I think we agree with each other :) | 15:24 |
| ttx | I feel like I should be doing something productive rather than discussing what MLs it is appropriate to ignore or warning people about the risk of wiki page removal while I hate all things wiki | 15:25 |
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| ttx | OK, cross-posted to -dev and to -operators so that people can continue to happily ignore the general list | 15:28 |
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| kashyap | I think it's not due to any mailcious intent that people "happily ignore the general list". I'd wager it's inability to cope with a lot of traffic. | 15:33 |
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| dansmith | ttx: well, sorry I pulled you into it.. I was trying to put my money where my mouth was on helping out and expected to be able to make some pretty obvious calls on stuff imported from the old wiki before 2013 | 15:34 |
| ttx | kashyap: the openstack general list no longer has a lot of traffic. It's been dead for a long time. I tried to remove it more than once in the past, but people jumped at me then saying I was killing the community | 15:34 |
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| ttx | dansmith: no seriously, please go ahead, I think that's great. I just wanted to give a fair warning that last time I proposed removing pages some people jumped at me saying we should only do redirects | 15:35 |
| ttx | People just love to jump at me I guess | 15:35 |
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| * dansmith jumps at ttx | 15:36 | |
| ttx | let me try to find that old thread | 15:37 |
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| kashyap | ttx: Yeah, (understandable) costs of open community I guess -- there's always someone to diss at you (impersonal). | 15:37 |
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| ttx | dansmith: can't find old thread, was probably in-person yelling | 15:47 |
| ttx | details in pm | 15:47 |
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| sdague | I think we need a jump guard | 15:50 |
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| ttx | sdague: if everyone ignores the openstack@ general ML (and I think most do) maybe it's time reviving the idea of removing it rather than keep it in zombie mode as a honeypot for questions nobody will ever answer | 15:50 |
| ttx | trying to find thread reference from last time we suggested removing it | 15:50 |
| ttx | my ML archive searching foo is not good today | 15:51 |
| dtroyer | FWIW, I had no idea openstack@ was a low-traffic list… I don't totally ignore it, but it is filtered and I don't see much traffic on my triggers… | 15:51 |
| sdague | ttx: yeh, I don't know. I do know I rarely see folks on openstack@. I think the question is whether https://ask.openstack.org/en/questions/scope:all/sort:answers-asc/page:1/ has managed to build a more proper community for stuff like that | 15:52 |
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| sdague | 17k questions, only 4k unanswered, seems like a yes | 15:52 |
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| ttx | dtroyer: it used to be high-traffic http://markmail.org/search/?q=openstack#query:openstack%20list%3Anet.launchpad.lists.openstack | 15:53 |
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| dtroyer | ttx: thanks. I would have assumed it was a combination of poor filtering on my part and less-disciplined tagging than we have on -dev ML | 15:56 |
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| dtroyer | or even no tagging... | 15:56 |
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| dtroyer | does the drop in traffic volume co-incide with the changes in release announcements? | 15:58 |
| dtroyer | that can't be all of it though | 15:59 |
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| ttx | dtroyer: no, originally that was the only list, then -dev was split out, then -operators was split out | 15:59 |
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| ttx | mostly as a way to avoid general attendance pollution | 15:59 |
| dtroyer | ok, nevermind, I see what I was doing… | 16:01 |
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| ttx | reed: do you remember last time we discussed removing the general ML ? | 16:03 |
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| reed | uhm ... | 16:09 |
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| reed | it was a long time ago ttx :) | 16:09 |
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| ttx | couple of years I think. 2013 or 2014. After we created -operators | 16:10 |
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| ttx | reed: do you remember what the objections were about ? | 16:11 |
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| reed | i for one, don't follow that list anymore | 16:11 |
| ttx | reed: I think there was something like "we need a default list" | 16:11 |
| reed | very low signal/noise ratio for me | 16:11 |
| reed | ttx, yes that's always the objection to remove anything | 16:12 |
| reed | 'we need it because we always had it' or because everyone has it | 16:12 |
| reed | like when we haxed the forums :) | 16:12 |
| ttx | rings a few very recent bells | 16:12 |
| reed | ehheeh | 16:12 |
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| reed | dansmith, there is a better way than deleting pages from the wiki ... like git history, it could be useful to look at past release schedules | 16:18 |
| reed | it's not that you loose google juice, it's that you may end up forgetting history | 16:18 |
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| dansmith | reed: unlike git history, pages on the wiki don't appear in a timeline, and you can't get "current view" of things | 16:20 |
| dansmith | so pages that are still around that say "we should totally do X" where X is a thing we've since decided is not going to happen just confuse people | 16:20 |
| dansmith | and pages that describe things we've since completely removed as if they're still in tree and useful are even worse | 16:20 |
| reed | dansmith, mediawiki has a way to mark things obsolete, remove them from searches | 16:20 |
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| dansmith | reed: deleting isn't deleting anyway right? | 16:21 |
| dansmith | and does that remove it from google indexing? because if not, it's not useful, IMHO | 16:21 |
| reed | dansmith, I don't think it's the same thing | 16:21 |
| reed | dansmith, you should move the page to the obsolete space | 16:22 |
| reed | that's what I was told is the right way to do it, mediawiki style | 16:22 |
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| dansmith | I can totally see that being the right approach for wikipedia | 16:22 |
| dansmith | I don't see the point for us | 16:23 |
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| dansmith | and if google is going to index it, even if with the Obsolete: namespace in front, I don't think it accomplishes the goal | 16:23 |
| reed | you may want to discuss the best approach with people who care about the wiki | 16:23 |
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| dansmith | and _I_ was told that nobody cares and that's why it's at risk :) | 16:23 |
| ttx | who would that ber | 16:23 |
| ttx | be* | 16:23 |
| sdague | reed: I think we are those people, being 2 of the 3 people that said "oh noes!" when the subject of getting rid of the wiki entirely popped up | 16:24 |
| reed | dansmith, there are few people who care... | 16:24 |
| dansmith | nobody else jumped up and offered to help curate it | 16:24 |
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| reed | If you want my advice, I'd suggest you let the wiki stay and die until those 'oh noes' people show up and do things | 16:25 |
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| dansmith | but.. that's me | 16:25 |
| reed | because if you keep on moving things around you give them the wrong impression | 16:25 |
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| sdague | reed: right, that's dansmith | 16:25 |
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| reed | fair enough :) | 16:25 |
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| sdague | he said "oh noes, I'll help prune" | 16:25 |
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| sdague | so saying he's not allowed to because some mythical person believes every wiki byte is sacred seems... odd | 16:26 |
| reed | the documentation team uses the wiki afaik and a few working groups like Product and user committee | 16:26 |
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| reed | i'm not saying that he's not allowed... | 16:26 |
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| reed | i think some old pages that show correct data like DiabloReleaseSchedule are worth keeping | 16:26 |
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| sdague | reed: you realize we're basically talking about content that was migrated from moin in 2013 and never have been updated since | 16:27 |
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| reed | old cruft that shows incorrect or totally obsolete stuff like API can be gone | 16:27 |
| sdague | active content is active, which is cool | 16:27 |
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| reed | sdague, libraries have been keeping old books for thousands of years and that's a good thing | 16:27 |
| sdague | o_O | 16:28 |
| sdague | strawman much? | 16:28 |
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| reed | now the notes from Austin1 summit, those are not useful but for a journalist or researcher on open source communities it could be valuable | 16:28 |
| dansmith | if you really want me to move things like diablo release schedule stuff to Obsolete I can do that, but I don't really see the point since the actually useful information out of that is archived elsewhere now | 16:28 |
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| reed | hey, feel free to do whatever you want... it's a wiki anyway and I've expressed my deep hate for it plenty of time... I feel already weird enough defending it :) | 16:29 |
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| sdague | reed: and that's why we all donate to the internet archive - https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/ | 16:29 |
| sdague | right? | 16:29 |
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| reed | sdague, great, archive.org has a copy already... | 16:30 |
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| reed | nuke and prune at will | 16:30 |
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| sdague | https://web.archive.org/web/20130520203335/https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Governance/ElectionsSpring2012/Eoghan_Glynn so if anyone needs that page, it's totally there | 16:30 |
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| reed | i've done my part, deleted 3 old personal pages imported from moin | 16:32 |
| reed | :) | 16:32 |
| sdague | reed: \o/ | 16:32 |
| reed | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Soren < this one goes too, right :) | 16:32 |
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| reed | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Vmware-fusion-precise ? | 16:33 |
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| sdague | seems fine to me | 16:34 |
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| reed | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/KeystoneR1 uhhh, nice, old days :) | 16:36 |
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| ttx | feels like pages never fully disappear anyway | 16:37 |
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| dims | flaper87 : because http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/alberteins133991.html (Why stopping now?) | 16:57 |
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| flaper87 | dims: well, technically, you're not doing the *EXACT* same thing. You're addressing different issues. | 17:02 |
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| flaper87 | dims: you're basically suggesting we should stop debugging and just rewrite everything whenever it stops working | 17:02 |
| flaper87 | or whenever it is slow | 17:02 |
| flaper87 | so, allow me to disagree with that quote in this specific context | 17:03 |
| dims | flaper87 : nope. on the other hand we should not turn people away either | 17:03 |
| clarkb | (which is my grump with the whole thing, swift did post some good analysis eventually which makes me more comofrtable with it, but designate is basically we gave up coding python) | 17:03 |
| flaper87 | no one is trying to turn people away and I'm surprised that's the message is coming through | 17:03 |
| dims | clarkb : right | 17:03 |
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| clarkb | if you do't know why something is slow rewriting it is probably the worst step to take | 17:05 |
| clarkb | regardless of which language you decide to rewrite it in | 17:05 |
| dims | flaper87 clarkb : i totally agree that due diligence should be done in performance testing and projects should seriously weigh community cost. | 17:06 |
| clarkb | and if you do know why sommething is slow you should be able to articulate why a ndifferent language or runtime would help | 17:06 |
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| clarkb | swift has done this, desginate has not (or at least hasn't posted about it on that thread) | 17:07 |
| dims | flaper87 clarkb : the key there is that each community can do that and we should not be doing that at the TC level. | 17:07 |
| dims | mugsie : around? to talk about clarkb's concern? | 17:07 |
| clarkb | dims: the problem with that assertion is now my job just got 100 times harder | 17:07 |
| clarkb | because I am going to have to hold hands for every single community that wants to put on their hip language clothes | 17:08 |
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| dims | clarkb : not asking to accomodate every language on earth... | 17:08 |
| clarkb | dims: even if it is just Go and you let each project do it on their own | 17:08 |
| mugsie | dims: we are in the designate IRC meeting right now | 17:08 |
| clarkb | each one will reinvent all the wheels differently find out all the ways they fail | 17:08 |
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| clarkb | it definitely makes sense to figure a common path imo | 17:08 |
| dims | mugsie : ack thanks | 17:08 |
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| notmyname | clarkb: that's exactly why this whole thing got started. let's identify the things required at an -infra level in order to remove blockers going forward | 17:09 |
| dims | clarkb : yep | 17:09 |
| dims | notmyname : ++ | 17:09 |
| clarkb | notmyname: yup, I think its the right process. Just that dims seems to be suggesting we not do that | 17:09 |
| clarkb | and just let projects decide for themselves | 17:09 |
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| dims | clarkb : let me be more clear. at the tc level with the poc experience and with infra cooperation we should increase the choice available. if the projects want to use that choice (using go) then they could weigh cost in their community | 17:11 |
| dims | does that help clarkb ? | 17:11 |
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| clarkb | yes that is better. | 17:12 |
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| dims | clarkb : sorry it did not come our right the first time :) | 17:12 |
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| notmyname | dims: clarkb: isn't there also the reverse to consider? if a project team has found that using Foolang is significantly better, there's a community cost to saying "no you aren't allowed to use foolang". | 17:17 |
| clarkb | notmyname: yup, but I think such assertions need to be backed up with data not "we decided yolo" | 17:18 |
| clarkb | notmyname: swift has done a good job of doing that imo | 17:18 |
| mugsie | clarkb: I do not like that assunption | 17:18 |
| notmyname | absolutely. and thanks. it's not a decision I made lightly | 17:18 |
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| mugsie | We have been talking about this as a project for quite a while | 17:18 |
| mugsie | it was not a "Go is cool, #yolo" | 17:19 |
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| clarkb | mugsie: yes, but you haven't been trying to address any of the issues in mdns from what I can see in the code | 17:19 |
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| clarkb | mugsie: so while its great to say Go might be good you don't know until you actually attempt to fix python | 17:19 |
| mugsie | we have been - but other things have been higher priority | 17:19 |
| mugsie | we are *very* small as a dev team | 17:19 |
| notmyname | is yolo still a thing? or did it die off because all the people who used it did somethign stupid while shouting yolo? | 17:19 |
| clarkb | and the current hard data I have seen is that the vast majority of the time sink in mdns is db access | 17:20 |
| * notmyname can't keep up with the kids these days | 17:20 | |
| clarkb | which should be fairly ocnsistent between languages | 17:20 |
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| dims | notmyname : yes, that's why i was telling flaper87 that folks are feeling alienated | 17:20 |
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| mugsie | i doubt it, and I will have to spend time tomorrow to get data, but I think most of the time is in the dns.record.from_text().to_wire() | 17:20 |
| mugsie | the "benchmark" that was ran was for 2 records in zone | 17:21 |
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| clarkb | mugsie: this is my concern | 17:21 |
| clarkb | you don't know but yo uhave already decided to rewrite it | 17:21 |
| clarkb | You should know before you make that decision.. as it is the most important factor in making that decision | 17:21 |
| clarkb | the assertion is that mdns is too slow and we should fix that. The solution chosen was rwrite in go | 17:22 |
| clarkb | but you don't actually know what is slow in the first place. | 17:22 |
| mugsie | we know that the POC in go is 10-50x faster out of the gate | 17:22 |
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| clarkb | people that have investigated it say the overhead is in the dns queries | 17:22 |
| clarkb | mugsie: does the POC use the db even? | 17:22 |
| mugsie | yes | 17:22 |
| mugsie | it wouldnt be much of a POC if it didnt | 17:23 |
| clarkb | s/dns/queries/db queries/ too many queries | 17:23 |
| clarkb | anyways thats my point, you should know where the slowness is first (via profiling and testing) before making an assertion that rewriting in a completely new language is approrpiate | 17:23 |
| mugsie | the suggestions were to add a cache, which we already have dicounted as it will not add any where near as much of a speed up as was suggested | 17:23 |
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| clarkb | mugsie: thats irrelevant to my point | 17:24 |
| mugsie | not really | 17:24 |
| clarkb | you do not know why the current python implementation is slow and you refuse to acknowledge the people that have attempted to figure it out | 17:24 |
| mugsie | the analysis that was done on the tread had minor imporvements until a cache was added | 17:24 |
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| clarkb | yes to bypass slow db lookups | 17:25 |
| clarkb | that is not the only way to fix slow db lookups if indeed the db lookups are slow... | 17:25 |
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| clarkb | which goes back to my point, you need to determine what causes the slowness | 17:25 |
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| clarkb | then you can properly decide if a new language or runtime environment is appropriate to solve the performance issues | 17:25 |
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| clarkb | I think swift has done a good job of laying out the issues | 17:26 |
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| mugsie | I acknolegded them - I just dissagreed with their base assertations | 17:27 |
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| clarkb | the tl;dr for them was blocking IO to disk is scheduled poorly by eventlet | 17:27 |
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| clarkb | (and probably python in general) | 17:27 |
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| greghaynes | clarkb: I posted a reply with what I suspect the difference was | 17:27 |
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| timsim | clarkb: The biggest issue for Python and this DNS problem is not slow db lookups, it's the serialization of python objects to DNS wire format | 17:27 |
| greghaynes | clarkb: the code originall spawned a thread per request - if you do a benchmark with huge parallelism then youll thread bomb the workers | 17:27 |
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| greghaynes | I am guessing go had built in worker-pooling | 17:28 |
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| notmyname | clarkb: I'm in no place to make any assertions about designate's code. I think we've explored a *lot* of different things in swift and made a decision based on technical merits while acknowledging the community cost. however, will we (openstack) make every project prove that there are no wasted CPU cycles before using Golang (or anything else non python)? | 17:28 |
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| greghaynes | you just reminded me that I need to reply thank you for that swift writeup :) | 17:29 |
| clarkb | notmyname: no, but they made the assertion that designate is doing this for perfomance reasons, I think it is fair to challenge those assertions if they are not backed with data | 17:29 |
| timsim | greghaynes: The (admittedly naive Go code) spawns a goroutine per requests, which is scheduled by the go runtime on N threads, where N is the # of CPUs | 17:29 |
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| greghaynes | notmyname: Yea, the swift writeup sounds like there was a lot of invenstigation done | 17:29 |
| greghaynes | and were all the better for it | 17:29 |
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| mugsie | yeah, we were planning a write up post summit, but the thread kicked off a lot sooner than I expected | 17:30 |
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| mugsie | so we were scrambling to get ourselves in | 17:30 |
| clarkb | in particular I think it is important that any project making that assertion know what the performance issues actually are | 17:30 |
| notmyname | clarkb: and I think that's a reasonable question to ask. but, and I don't know the answer here, is that the kind of gatekeepers we want in openstack? forcing every current or new project to justify aspects of a design or implementation based on our perception of its fitness for the usecase? | 17:30 |
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| greghaynes | notmyname: with adopting a new language that is *exactly* the stated goal | 17:31 |
| greghaynes | notmyname: since there is a cost for adopting new languages for everyone | 17:31 |
| clarkb | notmyname: I think when it comes to potentially placing a massive new buden on the community yes | 17:31 |
| clarkb | notmyname: this isn't a perpetual thing its a "you are saying this is amazing goodness can yo uactually show that it is?" | 17:31 |
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| clarkb | then after you do great everyone cane have the same amazing goodness and we will incur that cost and get over the ump | 17:31 |
| clarkb | *hump | 17:31 |
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| notmyname | then isn't the question "what are the cross-project and infra thing that need to be solved" instead of "is designate specifically allowed to use golang"? | 17:31 |
| clarkb | notmyname: it is both. The assertion is we are doing it because performance therefore evaluating that assertion is fair game as part of weighing against the cost for infra/docs/cross project | 17:32 |
| mugsie | well, I can honestly say the cost for docs / qa for designate is 0 | 17:32 |
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| mugsie | we write all our own docs, and all our own qa. | 17:33 |
| clarkb | notmyname: if you only weighed the infra etc cost you would never d oit because that cost is high and has to be blanced by some benefit | 17:33 |
| mugsie | I acknowledge that there is a cost for -infra | 17:33 |
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| mugsie | and we are will to assist with it, or find ways we can do things that mitigate the issue for them | 17:33 |
| mugsie | s/will/willing | 17:34 |
| notmyname | mugsie: aren't the docs issues with discovering, building, and publishing your in-tree docs? and aren't there QA issues related to the gate? | 17:34 |
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| mugsie | well, we write our gate jobs, and are not part of any integrated gate | 17:34 |
| notmyname | clarkb: yeah, that's reasonable. there has to be some beenfit | 17:34 |
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| mugsie | we publish our in-tree docs like every other porject, and I do not expect that to change | 17:35 |
| mugsie | as we were looking at sphinx for narative docs | 17:35 |
| mugsie | I would suggest that the burden is on us to find solutions that fit in for the docs currently work | 17:36 |
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| mugsie | and if we need to change something, get someone on our teams to do it | 17:36 |
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| notmyname | mugsie: that's good to know and helpful to me as well. swift has a huge amount of in-tree tests and docs. when you say narrative docs, are those the prose-like things that are stand-alone files? (as opposed to docstrings) | 17:37 |
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| mugsie | yeah | 17:37 |
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| notmyname | and you'd continute to use those in agolang implementation | 17:37 |
| mugsie | I would assume that we should use godoc for docstring style stuff | 17:37 |
| mugsie | I would suggest so - everyone is familair with them | 17:37 |
| mugsie | and it causes less of an issue for publishing | 17:38 |
| notmyname | yeah, I assume we'd do that in swift too. honestly I still have a *huge* about to learn about golang and its ecosystem | 17:38 |
| notmyname | but from my perspective that's exactly the kind of thing we've got to figure out right? "use godoc". that's one thing. now how about all the rest? :-) | 17:39 |
| mugsie | for our functional tests, if we have to change our tempest tests we have done it wrong | 17:39 |
| notmyname | and IMO that's what the ML thread *should* be about | 17:39 |
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| mugsie | yeah | 17:39 |
| clarkb | ya functional tests shouldn't need to change for either project, since that is all api level | 17:39 |
| clarkb | deployment of the tests will need work (likely all in devstack) | 17:40 |
| clarkb | *of the functional tests | 17:40 |
| mugsie | well, we have ours in a separate repo right now anyway, so think it will be simliar | 17:40 |
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| clarkb | timsim: according to greghaynes profiling/testing the serialization (I think it uses struct) isn't causing many problems | 17:41 |
| notmyname | clarkb: yeah one interesting part is that we aren't looking at having a golang deliverable that works with a python deliverable. we're still looking at delivering one "swift" that happens to have different components in different languages. It hink that makes it a little trickier for stuff like testing, but it makes it a *lot* smaller in scope, overall | 17:41 |
| greghaynes | clarkb: timsim Yea, that could be where the last 3 seconds were spent, but the other 66% of time was definitely waiting on the db | 17:42 |
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| greghaynes | clarkb: timsim I wonder if its all related though - if you thread starve workers then they will get hung up on the cpu intensive part | 17:42 |
| clarkb | notmyname: yup, that is one thing I was hoping mordred would have more time to talk about. Basically do you do pip install swift && go install? | 17:43 |
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| clarkb | notmyname: maybe pip or go install handles the whole thing? something to think about | 17:43 |
| timsim | greghaynes: With a zone that only has 3 records, that will certainly be the case | 17:44 |
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| clarkb | notmyname: or maybe it results in two completely different "deliverables" that get installed separately but don't function without both running | 17:44 |
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| notmyname | clarkb: no idea what would happen in the gate. what i've heard from rax (where this is already running in prod) is that it's compiled and backaged into a .deb on a build box via jenkins and then distributed/installed on the cluster | 17:44 |
| notmyname | clarkb: yeah, that's probably somewhat more likely. not 100% sure yet | 17:45 |
| clarkb | notmyname: do you know if they make a single .deb with the python bits included or is it multiple debs with go daemon in its own package | 17:45 |
| notmyname | single I think | 17:45 |
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| notmyname | clarkb: you said "...I was hoping mordred would have more time...". Implies that you think there's some huge rush? (maybe I'm reading that wrong) | 17:46 |
| notmyname | clarkb: I dont' think there's a time crunch yet on this | 17:46 |
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| greghaynes | timsim: so thats a good thing to dig in to - how that serialization scales up with time. It shouldnt be hard at all to make that fast if its actually an issue | 17:47 |
| notmyname | clarkb: from the swift side, we're planning on merging the golang code post barcelona, most likely. (I mean, "when it's done", but yeah) | 17:47 |
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| clarkb | notmyname: more that mordred was talking about it yesterday then disappeared | 17:47 |
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| notmyname | ah ok :-) | 17:47 |
| clarkb | notmyname: I don't think there is a huge rush, I just wanted the discussion we were having to continue | 17:47 |
| greghaynes | timsim: I don't know that on-wire protocol, is it doing something like asn.1 encoding? | 17:47 |
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| mugsie | notmyname: one thing we need to look at is requirements - not keeping the versions in sync, but making sure we dont use libraries that have incompatible (real or perceived) licences | 17:49 |
| mugsie | and what that looks like | 17:49 |
| notmyname | mugsie: +1 | 17:49 |
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| mugsie | it might be as simple as a list, and we parse the godep json file, but thats just off the top of my head | 17:50 |
| mordred | notmyname: heya | 17:50 |
| * mordred reads scrollback | 17:50 | |
| clarkb | mugsie: notmyname: it is possible that you can ignore that for a bit (maybe?). With python reqs one of the big reasons for that is we were neding up with 5 different libs that all did the same thing. I doubt that will very quickly become an issue with Go in two projects | 17:51 |
| mugsie | clarkb: yeah, possibly. | 17:51 |
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| clarkb | and depending on distro packaging version syncing shouldn't be a problem | 17:51 |
| mordred | yah - also, I think we can do a thing like g-r if we want to with godeps.json files pretty easily, should we desire such a thing | 17:52 |
| mugsie | mordred: yeah, I figured we could if needed | 17:52 |
| mugsie | or the projects just have to make sure we are careful with the libraries | 17:52 |
| clarkb | I only foresee version syncing being a thing if all the distros decided to package go libs like python libs and do builds in that manner (not sure if that is what they will do) | 17:52 |
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| mordred | I'm pretty sure that they will do that | 17:52 |
| mordred | but I could be wrong | 17:53 |
| timsim | greghaynes: I'm not familiar with asn.1 but it seems similar | 17:53 |
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| mugsie | mordred: I would like to think we will | 17:53 |
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| clarkb | mordred: ah then we probably do need to care about that if we want to help the distros | 17:53 |
| mordred | yah | 17:53 |
| mordred | if we want co-installable | 17:53 |
| mordred | we'll need to | 17:53 |
| mordred | I just confirmed | 17:53 |
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| mordred | debian/ubuntu will continue to have a single versoin of any library | 17:54 |
| mordred | and go depends will be listed as build-depends | 17:54 |
| clarkb | kk | 17:54 |
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| notmyname | clarkb: yes! I love you hear you say that about dep solving. let's solve the problem when we actually have it :-) | 17:56 |
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| clarkb | notmyname: well mordred says the distros will assert we have it today :) | 17:56 |
| notmyname | ok fine :-) | 17:56 |
| mordred | yup. | 17:57 |
| notmyname | from what I've seen so far it's not so much "can it be solved" and a lot more of "which is the least bad way to solve it" | 17:57 |
| notmyname | mordred: can we not have go-build-reasonableness? ;-) | 17:57 |
| mordred | notmyname: of course we can :) | 17:57 |
| mordred | notmyname: although to go's credit, they have already built a lot of that in to go | 17:58 |
| timsim | fwiw, Glide https://github.com/Masterminds/glide is really nice for Go deps | 17:58 |
| notmyname | mordred: I mean first off, GBR isn't the name of a beer | 17:58 |
| greghaynes | timsim: looks like theres not really any encoding, so its possible that dns lib is extremely unperformant, or its possible that you just need to tune how many threads you run at once based on how much ram/cpu you have | 17:58 |
| greghaynes | timsim: but it definitely shouldnt be a hard thing to make performant | 17:58 |
| mordred | timsim: ooh | 17:59 |
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| timsim | greghaynes: Yeah we've always known that dns lib is not great. | 17:59 |
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| mordred | timsim: I like glide better than godep | 17:59 |
| mordred | it's much more like rust's cargo | 17:59 |
| timsim | mordred: Yeah Godep predates Go's vendoringexperiment stuff | 17:59 |
| greghaynes | timsim: regardless though - you can cache the result of the serialization | 17:59 |
| mordred | which is the best language-specific tool I've seen | 17:59 |
| greghaynes | timsim: then its just not even an issue | 17:59 |
| timsim | Godep goes and rewrites your import paths | 17:59 |
| timsim | greghaynes: You can't really though, if that thing is changing | 18:00 |
| mordred | yah. glide does what I want it to | 18:00 |
| mordred | notmyname: I will withdraw my godep patches and send in glide patches | 18:00 |
| mordred | it's better | 18:00 |
| greghaynes | timsim: you totally can, you change it every time the cache data changes and you update it asynchronously | 18:00 |
| notmyname | mordred: ok :-) | 18:00 |
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| notmyname | mordred: I was just about to comment on those with a "this is kinda an experiment to see what works. definitely looking for feedback" | 18:01 |
| notmyname | mordred: probably would be helpful to have soemthing to that effect in the commit message | 18:01 |
| clarkb | notmyname: yup, definitely agree. I don't think anything is in the impossible category. It is just figuring out how to do it in a way that works at scale for testing and ops and users and devs | 18:01 |
| mordred | notmyname: https://github.com/Masterminds/glide/blob/master/glide.yaml | 18:01 |
| mordred | and https://github.com/Masterminds/glide/blob/master/glide.lock | 18:01 |
| mordred | it's the same pattern as rust | 18:01 |
| notmyname | mordred: and i know how much you like yaml ;-) | 18:01 |
| mordred | there is a file that describes the ranges | 18:01 |
| mordred | and then there is a file that describes the actual versions used | 18:01 |
| notmyname | that looks really interesting | 18:02 |
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| mordred | rust best practice is that applications should git commit their lock file | 18:02 |
| mordred | and libraries should not | 18:02 |
| mordred | because libraries need to work with multiple versions of things potentially | 18:02 |
| mordred | but applications really only care about the versoin they actually tested with | 18:02 |
| * mordred finding rust doc link - it describes the reasoning really well | 18:03 | |
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| timsim | mordred: The only sadness is that there isn't a crates.io for go. You're trusting git repos and stuff. | 18:03 |
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| mordred | http://doc.crates.io/guide.html#cargotoml-vs-cargolock | 18:03 |
| mordred | timsim: totally | 18:03 |
| mordred | but I think we can make that work okish | 18:03 |
| timsim | gopenstackvendoredlibs.io | 18:03 |
| clarkb | yes, it is unfortunate that certain package managers seem to think that distributing all the data in an ad hoc fashion is actually sane | 18:04 |
| clarkb | it turns out that packages disappear all the time when you do that | 18:04 |
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| notmyname | mordred: different alternative proposal | 18:05 |
| notmyname | mordred: I'm told "some people think glide is too magical" and https://github.com/kardianos/govendor is nicer because it's a little lower level | 18:05 |
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| timsim | greghaynes: So I agree with you that caching those things would be good. I've advocated for that before, but at a certain point you've got all that cache invalidation logic and the overhead that provides for managing the cache and the checking if you have the latest thing (lest you serve stale data). Not to mention that you've actually got to go retrieve that stuff from the cache (if it's not local to the process). | 18:07 |
| mordred | notmyname: that would also work - although it doesn't have the ability to express the "these are the desired ranges" vs. "this is what we actually tested" | 18:07 |
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| mordred | notmyname: but that isn't a showstopper | 18:08 |
| clarkb | timsim: greghaynes one of the great things about caching DNS records is that they have built in TTLs | 18:08 |
| mordred | notmyname: it'll make it harder to do the thing you tend to wnat to do | 18:08 |
| mordred | notmyname: which is to be able to express a compatible range | 18:09 |
| mordred | notmyname: so that some people could run with older versions of things if they wanted to | 18:09 |
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| mordred | notmyname: and would pretty much take us more strongly down the path of the openstack/requirements pattern | 18:09 |
| mordred | notmyname: so, I think those are the pros/cons | 18:09 |
| clarkb | mordred: it would be constraints always basically | 18:10 |
| mordred | both seem fine to me from an infra perspective | 18:10 |
| mordred | clarkb: yes | 18:10 |
| notmyname | mordred: cool. thanks for the analysis | 18:10 |
| mordred | notmyname: how about I push up patches for both | 18:10 |
| notmyname | mordred: yeah, that sounds great | 18:10 |
| mordred | so that we can look at all three side by side | 18:10 |
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| notmyname | mordred: interestingly, we've got an internal golang project here at swiftstack that we're having to solve the exact same problems for. kinda fortuitous timing, actually | 18:11 |
| mordred | woot | 18:11 |
| greghaynes | timsim: this isnt a language problem, we can absolutely make the encoding happen about as fast in python | 18:12 |
| greghaynes | timsim: the caching is a way to design a performant service, if thats not desired then thats fine too | 18:12 |
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| timsim | greghaynes: If we were to rewrite that serialization stuff in C and Cython, probably so. Is that what you had in mind? | 18:18 |
| mordred | clarkb, timsim, notmyname: https://review.openstack.org/315196 there's govendor | 18:19 |
| timsim | greghaynes: Something like that would get you out of serializing what comes out of the database to a format that dnspython can handle, which would help some, but there would probably be similar work to do. | 18:22 |
| timsim | The actual getting of things out of the database into constructs you can use in code is obviously faster in Go too. | 18:23 |
| mordred | clarkb, timsim, notmyname: https://review.openstack.org/315200 there's glide | 18:23 |
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| notmyname | mordred: thanks! | 18:25 |
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| timsim | !m mordred | 18:25 |
| openstack | timsim: Error: "m" is not a valid command. | 18:25 |
| greghaynes | timsim: not really - it should be a 0 copy thing since theres no encoding | 18:25 |
| greghaynes | timsim: I am not sure why its so unperformant so I cant say much more... | 18:25 |
| greghaynes | but theres no reason it should need to be that way | 18:25 |
| greghaynes | timsim: from a getting most bang for your buck standpoint though, I just wouldnt even solve that issue - either the service doesnt need to be highly performant in which case its not a problem or it does in which case youll get a huge benefit from even rudimentary caching | 18:27 |
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| timsim | Even if you're accessing your cache over the wire? | 18:27 |
| greghaynes | yes, cache the post-serialized data | 18:28 |
| notmyname | mordred: I added links there to https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/golang-infra-issues-to-solve | 18:28 |
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| greghaynes | if for some reason that doesnt work, then it shouldnt be hard to make serialization comparably as fast as it is in $language, it probably just requires being smarter about how you pool workers | 18:29 |
| timsim | greghaynes: Even with caching, you're still not (quite) as fast as the naive Go implementation. | 18:29 |
| timsim | In the test in your ML post | 18:29 |
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| timsim | I'm crazy impressed that you were able to get it that low just hacking around, honestly. | 18:30 |
| * timsim played with it for a couple hours this morning without the same results | 18:30 | |
| greghaynes | yes, so now the argument is not for 'we have a problem we need to solve' but is 'we need to optimize out everything possible' which is silly | 18:30 |
| greghaynes | I mean, its pretty straightforward | 18:30 |
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| openstackgerrit | amrith proposed openstack/governance: Add trove-image-builder repository https://review.openstack.org/312806 | 18:57 |
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| dansmith | sdague: lol, we migrated moin internal pages: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/HelpOnPackageInstaller | 19:18 |
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| sdague | dansmith: nice! | 19:22 |
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| odyssey4me | jamespage or perhaps EmilienM - as I recall there isn't a UCA for Xenial, nor will there be until Newton releases... is there some sort of published set of packages for Newton based on the master branch though, for testing purposes? | 19:25 |
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| EmilienM | odyssey4me: not afik | 19:26 |
| EmilienM | odyssey4me: last time I asked, UCA folks told me to wait newton-1 | 19:26 |
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| odyssey4me | ah ok, newton-1 is just fine... I was just hoping that it would be around before the RC's - I'm interested primarily for the affiliatory packages (like OVS) rather than OpenStack | 19:27 |
| EmilienM | well, on my side I'm kind of looking forward to see openstack packaging for newton | 19:28 |
| EmilienM | we don't build our own packages | 19:28 |
| odyssey4me | EmilienM yeah, understood :) thanks for the info! | 19:30 |
| EmilienM | cool | 19:31 |
| EmilienM | odyssey4me: FWIW, we already test Newton, thanks to RDO packaging | 19:31 |
| EmilienM | we're running on trunk now | 19:31 |
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| odyssey4me | EmilienM yeah, as I recall zigo did say that if there was enough interest in doing so he might be able to publish packages from trunk at a fair frequency | 19:32 |
| odyssey4me | in our trunk testing we usually only find things falling apart at around the third milestone | 19:32 |
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| odyssey4me | although last cycle was reasonably tame | 19:32 |
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| clarkb | thats when the massive feature surge happens before freeze :) | 19:33 |
| EmilienM | hopefully it works in devstack | 19:34 |
| odyssey4me | clarkb yep, that's usually the feature freeze deadline and when all hell breaks loose, if it does | 19:34 |
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| dims | fungi : "boatloads of shell script! " :) LOL | 20:57 |
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| fungi | it was more diplomatic than some of teh words i could have used ;) | 20:58 |
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| fungi | (though honestly, we have some very well-written programs in bourne shell, and even a linter for them!) | 20:59 |
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| greghaynes | so. much. bash. | 21:01 |
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| dims | mugsie : notmyname : what's the unit testing framework in go? is there a way to generate the pretty html reports for pass/fail? (am looking at https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/golang-infra-issues-to-solve and did not see that covered) | 21:06 |
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| notmyname | dims: great question. write it down :-) | 21:06 |
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| dims | ack. was not sure if i could throw that in there. | 21:07 |
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| thingee | dims: this is sort in set of initially questions dhellmann gave http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-May/093864.html | 21:18 |
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