Friday, 2014-01-03

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openstackgerritA change was merged to openstack/marconi: Implement tables and unit tests for sqlalchemy storage backend
openstackgerritA change was merged to openstack/marconi: Implement DataDriver for sqlalchemy storage backend
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openstackgerritFlavio Percoco proposed a change to openstack/python-marconiclient: Add shard support to the client
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alcabreraGood morning!14:57
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malinigood morning!!15:03
sebasmagriGood Morning.... :)15:04
malinialcabrera: thanks for the review :)15:08
maliniflaper87: Can you take a look  at tht when you get a chance ?15:08
flaper87alcabrera: malini sebasmagri gooooooooooooooooooooooood morning15:09
flaper87and Happy new year :)15:10
flaper87malini: can I haz pop-tarts?15:10
alcabreraYes, a happy new year it will be. :D15:10
maliniflaper87: only if you +215:10
flaper87malini: whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatttttt???????????????? :015:10
alcabreramalini - so generous! The market rate for pop tarts right now is +2/Approved!15:10
malinialcabrera: you are street smart ;)15:11
alcabreracpallares: hey! :)15:13
sebasmagriflaper87: hey ya! Happy New Year...15:13
cpallaresalcabrera: hello :)15:13
flaper87sebasmagri: Happy new year to you too!15:18
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flaper87cpallares: HELLOOOOO!!! Happy new year to the official Marconi's mentee!15:19
flaper87malini: just a tiny naming nit15:19
flaper87alcabrera: you should check it too :)15:19
cpallaresHappy new years to you too, flaper8715:19
flaper87alcabrera: and thanks for reviewing the shad patch so quickly :)15:20
kgriffshappy happy happy15:20
flaper87kgriffs: hellooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo15:20
maliniflaper87: fixing it now15:20
* kgriffs waives15:20
* flaper87 waves back....,n,z ooooooooooopppppppppppppppsssssssssssssss15:21
* alcabrera catches up after reading all the emails15:21
alcabreralots of patches to review15:22
kgriffsyes, I will be getting to reviews today15:22
alcabreraLet;s start the new year by approving all of them15:22
* kgriffs is back in the saddle15:22
flaper87alcabrera: I like the way you think15:22
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malinikgriffs: Happy New Year !! You have this one as well ;)15:23
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kgriffsoh boy15:24
* kgriffs self.clone()15:24
malinicpallares: o/15:24
kgriffsflaper87: so, you may hate me for this, but I want to get consensus before we move forward with cpallares' patches15:25
alcabreramap kgriffs_review patches15:25
malinicpallares: Do you have any preference on what to name the class ?15:25
cpallaresmalini: \o :)15:25
kgriffssome thoughts I've had lately15:25
kgriffsfirst, let me pose the question:15:25
kgriffslet me give a little background15:26
kgriffsI can't stop thinking about what the TC recommended in our incubation review15:26
* flaper87 kinda lost :D15:26
* flaper87 reads carefully15:26
* alcabrera listens15:27
kgriffsthat we concentrate on one transport. notmyname (iirc) also in leading up to it recommended we sort of forget the idea of alternate transports. concentrate on HTTP. YAGNI/KISS.15:27
kgriffsso, I know this sucks to dig this up now, but we better figure this out ASAP15:28
kgriffshere is the deal15:28
kgriffsoption A: continue on with our plans for supporting alternate transports.15:28
kgriffsoption B: focus on HTTP15:28
kgriffswith option A we cover more use cases, but introduce more complexity and will have to be more clever to keep performance where it needs to be after adding extra layers to the architecture.15:29
kgriffswe also introduce higher maintenance burden and risk scope creep15:29
kgriffsbut, like I said, we *may* support more use cases15:30
* flaper87 votes for option A, let me tell you why15:30
alcabreraI'm starting to lean towards giving greater focus to the HTTP transport (e.g., option B)15:30
alcabreraI'm very open to discussion, though.15:30
kgriffsoption B: we would need to use long polling to get message "push". But, keeps things simple, avoids scope creep and extra complexity15:30
cpallaresSo... Why can't we do both?15:31
kgriffsmy main concern, TBH, is scope creep15:31
flaper87we are supporting a queuing API, the transport holds the knowledge about the network protocol but not about the API. It's true that we're adding an extra layer but that new layer is the one we want to focus on15:31
flaper87the network protocol has - or shouldn't have - any knowledge about the API15:32
flaper87erm, s/any/no/15:32
alcabreracpallares: it's a question of division of effort. With only so many people to work on the project, we have to focus on the things we need sooner to meet expectations, e.g., "How soon can someone use Marconi in production for their particular use case?"15:33
flaper87so, adding this new layer will end up in picking option B but instead of calling it 'focus on the HTTP transport' we would call it 'focus on the API'15:33
alcabreraflaper87: hmmm15:33
kgriffsflaper87: i don't 100% agree. I think you end up introducing more complexity in order to create the abstraction15:34
flaper87We don't need to support zillions of transports. It's fine to have 2 reference transports and let the others live outside marconi15:34
alcabreraI like the notion of focusing on the API, but even with the layer of abstraction, we'd have to also focus on one transport implementation. There's still the mapping to be done after the core is set.15:34
flaper87alcabrera: yup, but the mapping can be done dynamically. That still needs to be sorted out, though.15:35
kgriffsre dynamically, I also think we will have a hard time completely getting rid of hand-coding15:35
kgriffsbecause of error handling15:36
flaper87kgriffs: agreed but there are other benefits. Supporting other transport will help with Marconi's adoption and even more important, it'll create more use cases for marconi15:36
kgriffswe will end up having to create a DSL or something, which I don't see the benefit of over just writing the python15:36
alcabreraHere's where I'm cautious now - I'm not sure more transports == more use cases.15:36
flaper87kgriffs: yeah, we discussed that, we still need to get there15:36
kgriffsflaper87: wrt adoption15:36
kgriffsI think we are trying to hard there15:37
kgriffsI don't think marconi has to be the thing to replace other queuing services15:37
flaper87kgriffs: that's my point15:37
kgriffsThe #1 goal is to be a cloudy queue15:37
kgriffswhich implies HTTP15:37
flaper87I don't want it to replace other queuing services but I don't also want it to be difficult to adopt15:37
alcabrera(cloudy queue with a chance of messages. :D )15:38
kgriffstake swift for example15:38
cpallaresalcabrera: lol15:38
kgriffsswift doesn't implement NFS or zeromq or anything15:38
kgriffsflaper87: it won't be hard to adopt for new, modern-style applications15:38
kgriffswhich run on the cloud15:39
kgriffsI guess that is what I am getting at - people keep asking whether we have considered an oslo.messaging driver for marconi15:39
flaper87IMHO, cloud doesn't imply HTTP API. It's true that most services expose an HTTP API but IMHO, there are different needs, use-cases etc15:40
kgriffswhat I am coming to is that perhaps that use case is out of scope15:40
flaper87it may be out of scope but that doesn't mean we shouldn't / can't allow others to implement it outside Marconi15:41
kgriffsBTW, azure is http and does long polling to simulate "push"15:41
alcabreraflaper87: agreed wrt to letting others implement it outside.15:41
kgriffsthe question is, how much work do we do and what might we have to compromise in order to make "letting others implement it outside" easy-ish15:43
kgriffsbad word15:43
flaper87we should embrace the fact that marconi - and openstack - is not opinionated and bring that up to the network protocol instead of limiting it to the storage backend15:43
alcabreraso my reasons for standing closer to "keep the focus on HTTP" is that if I were to implement a queuing solution that used zmq, for example, I would just use zmq.15:43
alcabrerasans persistence15:43
flaper87alcabrera: yup but you'd have other issues that marconi is trying to solve for you15:44
flaper87what if you'd like to use websocket?15:45
flaper87or just bare tcp ?15:45
flaper87I don't have any particular use-case for tcp, I'm just bringing it up as a valid option15:45
flaper87but there are some for websocket15:45
alcabrerait's a question of scope. :(15:45
flaper87or even MQTT15:45
alcabreratbh, I'ld love to have wide-ranging transport support.15:46
kgriffsthe vast majority of apps don't need websocket15:46
kgriffspeople *think* they need it, but usually they don't15:46
alcabreraBut can we do it and help advance the core of marconi?15:46
flaper87what if someone still wants to speak AMQP to Marconi but have its messages stored somewhere else, say mongodb15:46
alcabreraIN a timely fashion?15:46
kgriffsand if they do, they are doing something real time like a shared whiteboard15:46
kgriffsand you don't want to use marconi for that anyway15:46
flaper87IMHO, we're doing it. The work happening in that blueprint is not interfeering at all with the work that is going on in the API15:47
flaper87we can move the wsgi transport forward, see how the API layer evolves15:47
flaper87Once they both the legacy wsgi transport and the http transport (the one using the API layer) are aligned we can see the differences, benefits and drawbacks15:48
kgriffsok, let's keep them side-by-side15:49
kgriffsthat sounds like a good plan15:49
kgriffsand then we can objectively compare them15:49
alcabrera+1 for parallel implementations15:50
alcabreraOnce we find what works best for the long term, we can prune the other tree, much like we did with the proxy15:50
kgriffsso, I would say, if we want a reference non-http transport it should be websocket15:50
alcabreraKeep the bits that help everything out.15:50
flaper87kgriffs: sounds good to me15:50
alcabrerakgriffs: +115:50
alcabreraso it sounds to me like the plan is: 1) continue to support our wsgi transport, 2) continue to advance the API layer, 3) build an HTTP transport on top of the API layer, 4) compare and prune (at some point thereafter)15:51
flaper87I don't mean to be stubborn... I do think there're benefits in allowing others to implement their own transports for 'their private stuff'15:51
kgriffsif we go with flaper87's new stack, and deprecate/remove the old, the idea would be that we would leave remaining transports as an exercise for the reader15:52
kgriffsflaper87: no worries, you have valid points15:53
flaper87Btw, it's not that people "can't" implement their own transports now. It's just that it's way more complex to do it with the current code15:53
kgriffsthe guiding principle we should keep in mind here is avoiding scope creep15:53
flaper87kgriffs: agreed15:53
alcabrerakgriffs: yup15:53
flaper87that reads nicely15:53
flaper87KISS the YAGNI15:53
alcabreraflaper87: also agreed about the current complexity15:53
kgriffsand let's make what we *do* write kick some serious A**15:53
kgriffsremember, there are other ways to create bridges than us having to write the code directly into marconi's "kernel"15:54
alcabreraA**: a heuristic algorithm for finding the shortest path to *awesome*15:54
kgriffsyou should tweet that15:54
flaper87alcabrera: re plan, Agreed. that was the plan!15:54
flaper87alcabrera: LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL15:54
flaper87one more thing15:54
kgriffsnope, sorry15:55
flaper87At the very end, either path we'll choose won't block users to extend marconi's transport, which is good.15:55
* kgriffs is kidding15:55
alcabreratweeted. :D15:55
kgriffsflaper87: agreed; I think the question is how much do we do to "help" them do that?15:56
kgriffsi.e., how much of the logic do we push down the stack so they don't have to rewrite it15:56
kgriffsflaper87: btw - falcon 0.1.8 has an add_sink method you may find interesting15:56
kgriffsjust added this week. :D15:56
flaper87and we'll pick the one that will keep marconi sane, consistent and [PUT MORE WORDS HERE]15:56
kgriffsflaper87: P.S. - PLEEEEEASE don't reinvent SOAP to make this work15:57
* kgriffs is begging on his knees15:57
alcabreraso wrt "logic to push down the stack": there's error handling, input validation, and marconi logic (messages, queues, etc/)15:57
kgriffsflaper87: excellent15:57
kgriffsalcabrera: I think we might even find there is an intermediate answer15:58
kgriffsnot totally dynamic/plug-n-play, but we do DRY up some stuff15:58
flaper87no way, the only SOAP I would like to reinvent is the one I use in the shower15:58
alcabreraflaper87: +1 - all natural, SLS-free Simple Object Access Protocol for showering15:59
kgriffs(ignore the dumb add at the beginning)16:00
flaper87what? bing?16:00
flaper87there's no way I'll click that link16:01
flaper87man, bing redirects me to and it doesn't load the video16:02
kgriffsok, fine:
kgriffslots of options. :p16:02
kgriffsok, just google "fruity soap waking ned divine"16:03
flaper87hulu is only available in the US16:03
kgriffsstupid hulu16:04
alcabrerafinding a video link that works for the lols #real_marconi_challenges16:04
kgriffsforget this API thing16:04
kgriffslet's fix video16:04
flaper87kgriffs: based on your msg pattern, If I don't find the video with the query you gave me you'll answer with a: "stupid flaper87"16:04
kgriffsflaper87: well, just go rent waking ned divine and watch it16:06
kgriffsit's glorious16:07
* kgriffs gets back to work16:07
cpallaresmalini, flaper87: how about just schema for the name?16:07
flaper87renting is only available in the US16:07
flaper87Stealing if what people do in other places outside the US16:07
kgriffsflaper87: what do you do for fun, sit around a campfire?16:08
malinicpallares: schema sounds good to me16:08
flaper87cpallares: I'm find with it. I didn't mentioned it because if you import both Schemas in the same module you'll end up doing ' import Schema as RequestSchema/ResponseSchema'16:09
cpallaresflaper87: good point, RequestSchema it is.16:10
openstackgerritCindy Pallares proposed a change to openstack/marconi: Map HTTP request codes in jsonschema
flaper87and s/mentioned/mention/ T_T16:14
flaper87who wants to see the client patches landing?????????????????? \o/ \o/16:15
flaper87please, not everyone, I don16:15
flaper87I don't want to make freenode crash*16:15
alcabreraI want to see them land.16:17
cpallaresme too16:22
flaper87kgriffs: btw, I created the icehouse series for the client and the 2 remaining Ith's milestones16:29
flaper87Damn, it's already Jan 3rd. 2014 is about to end...16:29
maliniI havent got any reviews from the QA folks on the tempest patch yet :(16:31
maliniDo we need all the marconi tempest tests merged by Feb to graduate?16:32
flaper87malini: yup, that's quite a strong requirement, AFAIK16:32
maliniI'll start bugging ppl hard to get it reviewed16:33
flaper87what was the last thing we agreed about the TTL ?16:33
flaper87IIRC, we want that blueprint to happen, we will keep ttl and 0 means no expiration16:33
flaper87right ?16:34
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maliniflaper87: why would you want a message to never expire? we'll end up as a storage in tht case16:37
kgriffsflaper87: thinking16:37
flaper87malini: I don't remember the exact reasons but I know we discussed this at some point. :/ kgriffs ?16:38
kgriffsah, remembers that discussion16:38
kgriffswe need to know so we can write that into
flaper87or maybe it was just about making ttl optional but hiding the secret of eternity from messages16:39
flaper87as in having a configuration option with the default TTL16:39
kgriffsso, the use case is mainly convenience - I don't want to set ttl as a client dev16:39
flaper87or setting it in the queue's metadata16:40
kgriffswhat about this16:40
kgriffsif you leave it off, it defaults to the max16:40
kgriffsand the operator could set max to something rediculous, like a year16:40
flaper87sounds reasonable16:40
flaper87I'll stab that blueprint16:40
kgriffsrock on16:41
kgriffsnext week I will get i-2 sorted16:41
flaper87kgriffs: ok, I did some of that work on the client today16:41
kgriffswe need stuff to have milestone and assignee16:41
kgriffsotherwise it aint gettin in16:41
flaper87I mean, moved some BPs to i-3 and kept in i-2 the ones that make sense16:41
kgriffsflaper87: kk. thanks!16:41
flaper87well, the ones that make sense to me but we know I don't make much sense :D16:42
* kgriffs needs all the help he can get!16:42
kgriffsflaper87: btw16:42
kgriffslet me share something16:42
* flaper87 sends kgriffs his bank coordinates16:42
* kgriffs aligns microwave dish16:43
* kgriffs pushes big red button16:43
kgriffsIt made me feel dumb. Always a Good Thing™16:44
flaper87kgriffs: awesome stuff! I'll read that!16:45
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kgriffsok peeps16:51
kgriffsI need to get falcon 0.1.8 out16:52
kgriffscpallares: btw, feel free to contribute to Falcon16:52
* kgriffs could use the help!16:52
kgriffsbalajiiyer: are you working on a Pecan POC transport driver?16:52
cpallareskgriffs: sure, I'm trying to learn more about falcon right now :)16:54
flaper87kgriffs: reviews, reviews, reviews :D16:54
kgriffsI created a 0.1.9 milestone16:54
kgriffsyou can look through some of those issues16:54
kgriffspink me in ##falconframework anytime!16:55
kgriffsflaper87: yes, that is my other big todo today, besides falcon16:55
kgriffsI have a lot to catch up on after being on holiday!16:55
flaper87awesome, thanks a lot!16:56
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* alcabrera returns from the ether17:14
alcabrerare: TTLs - I like the idea of missing TTL == operator-set-max17:14
alcabreraI'm happy to see falcon moving forward again. I know kgriffs has been enthusiastically hacking away since yesterday on falcon. :)17:14
alcabreraboth falcon and marconi could use some dev-directed docs via RTD, so I'd love to see those happen. In each case, getting a Hello World up would be great.17:15
flaper87brb guys, dinner!17:17
alcabreraflaper87: enjoy!17:17
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kgriffsgus, I'll be back in a bit - I need to ship some bits!17:37
kgriffsor should I say wheels?17:37
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malinikgriffs: new wheel or old?17:37
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openstackgerritMalini Kamalambal proposed a change to openstack/marconi: Verify response jsonschema for List Messages by ID
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malinikgriffs_afk: Falcon is in the 'Top Python Projects of 2013' in PyCoders weekly !!20:15
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alcabrerayeah! :D20:23
alcabreraI just saw that.20:23
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cpallareswow! congrats kgriffs_afk!20:35
cpallaresalcabrera, do you remember that one time I asked you something about python but it turns out it was something about falcon and you sent me to this page that had the methods and parameters and stuff?21:14
cpallaresDo you remember what page it was? I've been trying to find it.21:14
alcabreracpallares: I think I remember. Let me find that page. I think it was in reference to extracting parameters from a request object.21:15
cpallaresalcabrera: woah that was fast!21:16
alcabreraStarting from there and going down should give you the whole get_param family of methods. :)21:16
alcabreraI'm surprised I remembered. For some reason, this logged itself in my memory pretty well.21:16
cpallaresalcabrera: haha it only took you like 2 seconds21:17
cpallaresalcabrera: I looked through the IRC logs for like 20 mins and I couldn't find it :P21:17
* cpallares should have asked alcabrera first21:17
cpallaresthanks :D21:18
alcabreraIt's surprised me many times how efficient it is to ask people for information. Best databases - human DB.21:19
alcabreranp. :)21:19
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alcabreraI'm out for the day. Take care!21:19
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cpallaresbye, alcabrera!21:22
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flaper87kgriffs: ping23:08
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* flaper87 is setpping out23:13
flaper87kgriffs: if you get a chance, pls, take a look at the client patches :)23:13
flaper87thanks a lot!23:13
kgriffswill do23:14
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