Friday, 2014-03-21

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openstackgerritFlavio Percoco proposed a change to openstack/marconi: Include full license text
openstackgerritFlavio Percoco proposed a change to openstack/marconi: Update license headers on select source files
openstackgerritA change was merged to openstack/marconi: Update license headers on select source files
openstackgerritA change was merged to openstack/marconi: Include full license text
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flaper87why is this channel so quieeett ???13:17
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alcabreragood morning. :)13:19
flaper87alcabrera: hey hey hey13:19
flaper87how are you doing?13:19
alcabreragreat! tired! :D13:19
alcabrera(so very tired013:20
flaper87alcabrera: Marconi's talk didn't get accepted :(13:20
alcabreraflaper87: dang. :/13:20
flaper87alcabrera: oh, mmh, take 2 red bulls, some caffee and an aspirine13:20
alcabreranooooo, not the red bull. :P13:20
alcabreracoffee sounds great, though13:20
alcabreraI'll take some of that and 2 haskells13:20
alcabrerathat'll keep me up13:20
flaper87lol @ again13:21
alcabreraI learned last night how crazy simple it is to ask the compiler, "Please ensure that data I've already compressed will not be compressed again". Type tagging is magic, flaper87. Since rustlang has sum types, too (I believe), I imagine it can totally do this, as well. :)13:22
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flaper87alcabrera: how do you do it in haskell?13:26
flaper87alcabrera: I guess the same thing could be done in rust by using boundaries13:27
alcabreraflaper87: like so:
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alcabrerabasically convert from a native data type (ByteString) to an equivalent representation (Compressed)13:27
alcabreraprovide a function in that direction13:27
alcabrerathen deal with Compressed throughout the rest of the program, knowing that the underlying contents are ByteString13:28
kgriffshey guys, just checking in for a minute before I hit the road. I'll be back online in an hour or two.13:28
alcabrerakgriffs: o/13:28
flaper87yeah, that's what I thought. then using bounds would be enough in Rust13:28
alcabrerakgriffs: I'm over at the Austin office. :)13:28
flaper87kgriffs: hey man! :)13:28
flaper87kgriffs: we should've a small chat about the next steps that should be taken13:29
flaper87and how we're planning to do that13:29
flaper87I've also a couple of more things I'd like to discuss / propose13:29
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kgriffssure thing13:29
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kgriffsbtw, Robert works for HP and I know there has been some chatter in their circles since the early days of Marconi's implementation wrt scaling, and AMQP (iirc, HP's queue product uses an AMQP backend).13:30
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acabrerainternet dropped me like a sack of potatoes13:30
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kgriffsI've invited them several times to come contribute over the past year, and I hope they do. A new-hire for them was asking some great questions in here the other day, and I hope that means they will be putting some resources to the project.13:32
flaper87kgriffs: that sounds great13:32
flaper87the more people contribute to Marconi, the better13:32
kgriffsas I keep saying, but I don't think people quite get for some reason, we are always welcoming of fresh ideas and contributors, but we need more hands to get the job done13:33
flaper87kgriffs: we now have another cycle to make this point clear13:33
flaper87but we need to get the list of things we need done13:33
flaper87once we get that, we'll accept contributions *just* on those things13:34
flaper87in order to keep development focused on the goal13:34
kgriffsflaper87: if you can help make that clear, that would be great.13:34
kgriffs+1 for focus13:34
flaper87kgriffs: I totally will13:34
flaper87something we need to do more is writing on the mailing list13:34
kgriffsone other thing I wanted us to keep in mind13:34
flaper87we've had discussions there13:34
flaper87but we probably need to make some extra noise13:34
kgriffsyep, we were talking about that not too long ago iirc13:35
kgriffsso, I think we can take the list of goals for graduation and sort them by easiest/least controversial13:36
kgriffsthen, do each in order of that list, and discuss what we are doing profusely on the ML13:36
flaper87I can start writing something out13:37
kgriffswe will do our part13:37
kgriffsI would expect community leaders to reach out and be more proactive when they have concerns/questions. Some have done this in the past, which I appreciate, but others certainly have not.13:37
kgriffshowever, that is outside our sphere of influence13:37
kgriffsso, let's make sure we make plenty of noise and welcome and value the feedback13:38
flaper87jbernard: btw, patches landed. I had to re-order the dependency. Hope you don't mind13:38
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kgriffsfinal thought then I gotta run13:39
flaper87kgriffs: I'll start working on a list of things that we should totally have, we can discuss it when you're back on-line13:39
kgriffscrap, forgot the thought13:39
* kgriffs need much more sleep13:39
flaper87kgriffs: LOL13:39
flaper87kgriffs: or coffee ?13:40
kgriffsyeah, something13:40
kgriffsoh, actually two more13:40
kgriffsfirst, i was happy to see some community leaders, on several occasions, remind people to keep the conversation constructive, and so I think awareness is spreading and turning into action.13:42
flaper87kgriffs: +113:43
kgriffssecond, wrt "why isn't Marconi a provisioning API"... I need your help to rephrase that conversation13:43
kgriffswe need the community to ask "do we need an additional project to provision queue resources"13:43
flaper87kgriffs: re 2. I was thinking that we should probably first write the necessary documentation and re-start that thread asking the right questions13:44
kgriffsflaper87: yes, very much so. the entire thing got off on the wrong foot13:44
flaper87We need a very detailed FAQ and then we can say: "Ok this is the must-read doc about Marconi"13:45
flaper87before asking anything go and read that13:45
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kgriffssometimes OpenStack loses sight of what cloud app developers *really* want, getting bogged down in technicalities and politics instead13:45
kgriffswe have an opportunity to lead by example here.13:45
kgriffsI mean, we all love tech. And we obsess over it.13:46
kgriffsWhat we need more of is user empathy.13:46
flaper87kgriffs: yeah. There's another good point of that thread that I'd like to discuss in a new / separate one. The point is that I don't think openstack should be limited to a set of technologies13:46
flaper87as I said in my reply, that's unrealistic13:46
kgriffsyep, that was an interesting point that came out13:46
flaper87There are good reasons to limit it to that set of technologies but there are others like Marconi that simply don't fit into that rule13:47
kgriffsnotmyname: btw, we were just talking about the path forward. ^^^13:50
kgriffsoh, one last thing to add to your notes if you will13:53
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kgriffsflaper87: someone was wondering why marconi should be integrated if it only uses keystone13:53
flaper87kgriffs: good question, I'll add that to the notes13:54
flaper87I'm writing it there for now13:54
kgriffsnot sure that I agree that integrated necessarily means taking lots of dependencies on other services, but I can appreciate the viepoint13:54
kgriffsflaper87: there are likely a few others from the governance patch comments you can mine13:55
flaper87alcabrera: sriram1 you both out of there >.>13:55
flaper87ametts: sriram1 ^13:55
kgriffs(other concerns/questions)13:55
flaper87I shared that with kgriffs not you13:55
* flaper87 is kidding13:55
* ametts is lurking13:55
kgriffsflaper87: one more thing on depends...13:55
kgriffsceilometer and heat have expressed interest in using marconi to surface events to users13:56
kgriffscan you make a note of that? we need a TODO item on the list to make that interest concrete13:56
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flaper87kgriffs: so did Horizon13:57
kgriffsif marconi is providing a valuable service to other projects, it should be a no-brainer to have it itegrated13:57
flaper87There's a proposal for an horizon-marconi session13:57
kgriffsflaper87: great. I think the summit will be a great time to work through a lot of the TODOs on the list and put together some concrete next steps13:58
alcabreraflaper87: with as much as the network is dropping me... :P13:58
kgriffsgenerally speaking, I need everyone's help to connect the dots, that is why some folks in the community are confused by marconi's future13:58
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kgriffswe can't just *do* something for horizon, for example, and not help people see that that connects to, say, the reason why it makes sense for Marconi to be integrated.13:59
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flaper87kgriffs: yeah, thing is we also need to make sure we've everything they need too13:59
flaper87for example, we cut the first client version quite late and that was blocking the work on heat14:00
kgriffsI think that people will discover, if we can do this, that we all share very similar interests and goals14:00
kgriffsflaper87: yes, totally 100% agree14:00
kgriffsone of our goals should be to put a number down on team members14:00
flaper87kgriffs: speaking about the client, we should cut another version14:00
kgriffsX new contributors during the next 6 months14:00
kgriffsY new core members14:01
flaper87We've claims support now14:01
flaper87and the kombu transport needs that14:01
alcabrerasriram1: good morning. :)14:01
flaper87kgriffs: +1 to that too14:01
alcabreravkmc: o/14:01
alcabrerakgriffs: +1 for setting growth plans14:01
kgriffsflaper87: sounds good, +2 from me on cutting a new version14:01
alcabreramarconi really needs it14:01
kgriffswe have been growing slowly, but steadily. I would like to accelerate that growth. We have a ton of work to do in the next 6 months to graduate and need a bigger plot of land from which to farm ideas and code14:02
sriram1alcabrera: top of the morning to ya :)14:02
kgriffsso, flaper87, let's make sure that is added as a sort of meta-TODO for graduation14:03
kgriffsand then we can identify concrete actions to take in growing the team14:03
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vkmcHi all! :)14:04
sriram1+1 for more contributors. I would also like to start contributing more towards marconi :)14:04
vkmcalcabrera, o/14:04
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kgriffssriram1: We would love to have you contribute more!14:09
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alcabreramalini: o/14:09
kgriffsmalini: morning!14:09
maliniGood Morning!!14:09
maliniI am glad to see us back in action :)14:09
alcabreraI like our new plan forward.14:10
alcabrerait feels less stressful and less conflict-y14:11
maliniI like the plan14:12
maliniAdding to it ,we need to make ourselves more visible in the community14:12
alcabreraI feel like the ML party that's been going on over the past few days has been a great step in that direction14:14
alcabreraeven if it was rocky at first14:14
maliniyes, we need to sustain the momentum we have now14:14
maliniContinue the discussions we had14:15
alcabreraIt seems that very targeted topics, like "[marconi] Discuss API v2.0: Topics v. Queues" and [marconi] The Latest on Falcon/Pecan" draw a lot more attention that "[marconi] Team Meeting March 25"14:16
sriramyes, I agree. Having more specific discussions in the open will definitely increase Marconi 's awareness in the Openstack community.14:19
kgriffsmalini: +1, Flavio and I were actually just discussing the ML earlier.14:22
kgriffsbasically, we need to work within our sphere of influence14:22
maliniI am adding some community related stuff in the etherpad14:22
maliniOne of our issues is we were too comfortable living in our little bubble14:22
kgriffsby that I mean, we can make a lot of noise on the ML, but we can't necessarily influence community members and leaders to proactively come to us when they have questions or concerns.14:23
kgriffsmalini: agreed. I think we used to a do a better job, and now we can do a much better job than we ever did before14:23
maliniI agree.we should not just generate noise - will make it easy for folks to ignore us :D14:23
kgriffsmalini: I would appreciate your thoughts and help in crafting some concrete actions on this14:24
maliniSure !!14:24
maliniThis week was rough, but we got a lot of feedback & has helped us in creating plans to improve14:24
kgriffssilly shift key14:25
flaper87btw, we should probably stop calling the pecan / falcon discussion as "Falcon vs Pecan"14:27
alcabrerakgriffs: syntax error14:27
alcabreraflaper87: +214:27
flaper87I don't think the frameworks need to compete14:27
flaper87it's just a matter of picking the right tool for Marconi14:28
kgriffsflaper87: that is a great point14:30
kgriffslet me expound on that and say we need to stop calling a lot of these topics X vs. Y14:30
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kgriffsone of the most common logical fallacies used in arguments is the "either/or fallacy"14:30
* kgriffs learned that in Honors English class in college14:31
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kgriffsThere are needs in the community today that are not served by just one framework.14:32
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kgriffsThat is why today we have Falcon AND Pecan AND swob14:32
kgriffsConvergence is the holy grail of technology, but history and the market have proven again and again that often times AND is the most viable answer, and we just have to try and mitigate the downsides14:33
alcabrerakgriffs: as demonstrated by the Facebook HackLang project, quite recently (PHP And Hacklang) ;)14:35
maliniWe also should do our future Pecan work more in the open..Send constant updates in the ML, solicit feedback directly from specific people & have the community direct us on how to evaluate.14:35
maliniWe did an unbiased review .14:35
maliniBut we needed to do more than  presenting the final report .14:36
maliniIt is a good lesson for everything we do in future14:36
kgriffsTaken to an extreme, convergence in technologies optimizes for a local optimum, not a global one.14:39
kgriffsmalini, flaper87: I think we should suggest the TC commission a cross-sectional committee that includes members from all core OS projects (certainly including Swift) to do another eval14:41
kgriffsthe first step is coming up with the weights and criteria for a new decision matrix14:41
kgriffsthat would be discussed on the ML and given plenty of time for everyone's voice to be heard and duly considered.14:41
kgriffssecond, they should work out a methodology and get sign-off on that from the community14:42
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maliniThat is a good idea. We should also have Doug/ Ryan in the committee.The debates should happen within the evaluation committee14:42
kgriffsPecan and Falcon maintainers, and recent contributors, should not be on that committee14:43
kgriffsmalini: no, they should not be on the committee, because they, like me, are biased14:43
maliniwho selects the committee?14:44
maliniwe need unbiased opinions14:44
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kgriffsmalini: good question, I would suggest that PTLs do that, and/or they are on the committee14:44
kgriffsso, this is one way to tackle this issue14:45
amettsSomeone from Swift needs to participate14:45
kgriffshowever, I fear that we are still asking the wrong question14:45
kgriffsametts: yes, agreed 1000%14:45
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kgriffsI think that before proposing a round #2 on the eval14:46
kgriffsI guess it could be the same thing14:46
maliniThere is also the bigger question of the direction of OpenStack14:47
kgriffswhat I was going to say is, the community deserves an acknowledgment that, first of all, some kinds of APIs have significantly different needs than others14:48
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* ametts put that point into flaper87's etherpad14:48
maliniThe direction of OS will be the key to answering concerns on noSQL, more data plane APIs etc14:48
alcabrerathe direction of openstack - that's going to be an interesting discussion14:49
kgriffsalso, we need to be clear that the goals of reducing variance among projects are worthy, but it is impossible to have a diverse set of APIs without having at least a slightly diverse set of frameworks, without making compromises that hamstring some APIs14:49
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kgriffsI added some categories of TODOs to the etherpad14:56
kgriffsWe have conceptual as well as technical TODOs to work on14:57
alcabrerakgriffs: added a few bullets14:59
kgriffsalcabrera: thanks!14:59
kgriffsok folks, I gotta go. I can't promise I'll be online much today, but I will try to pop in when I can15:01
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alcabreragotta run15:09
alcabrerasee yall later15:09
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kgriffsametts: did Alej say that our talk didn't make the cut for the summit? I was trying to figure out how he knew... did I miss an email?15:13
amettsAs far as I could tell, the talks weren't posted as of yesterday.15:13
* ametts is checking again15:13
kgriffshmm, did I misread something15:14
sriramI think it was flaper87 who mentioned it.15:14
kgriffsman, I'm really burned out. wonder why?15:14
amettsBy "not posted", I meant "the entire schedule isn't posted".15:15
amettskgriffs:  I wonder where flaper87 got his advance info?15:16
kgriffsflaper87: when you get a chance, can you comment on the summit talk and workshop proposals?15:16
kgriffsoh oh. battery is about to die15:17
amettsI wonder if he knows if ANY Marconi projects got approved.  I bought oz_akan a Sumit ticket yesterday, and I want my money back.15:17
amettsoz_akan submitted a Marconi ops talk.15:17
* flaper87 back15:18
* flaper87 was watching the ongoing OAS session until it was turned into a private session15:18
amettsflaper87 is sneaky15:18
flaper87ah yeah, the talk didn't get accepted15:18
flaper87well, I got an email saying that15:18
flaper87there's a chance the workshop will be accepted15:19
amettsAnd maybe the Ops talk.15:19
flaper87ah right, I had forgotten about that one. That's an important talk, I hope it gets accepted15:20
flaper87TBH, non of my talk proposals got accepted :(15:20
flaper87like 015:20
flaper87I wanted to talk about mentoring15:20
amettsflaper87:  You need to stop pissing people off. :)15:20
flaper87ametts: LOOOOOOOOOOL, true that15:20
kgriffsametts: I can't say I'm a big fan on the process for voting for talks this year, but then, I'm biased.15:26
amettskgriffs:  What was it you didn't like?  The random presentation in the voting site?15:27
amettsThe fact that the voting wasn't the official go/no-go decision?15:27
kgriffslooks like Barbican got the shaft to15:28
kgriffssee #openstack-meeting log from the last few minutes15:28
amettsGeez, I wonder what DID make it in....15:29
kgriffsametts: mostly the randomness and there were a lot of talks that seemed pretty half-baked in their abstracts. I got tired after a while wading through so many things15:30
kgriffsI would rather have had more structure, like, what topics are you interested in? OK, within that set, now we can do the random voting thing15:30
amettsMakes sense15:30
kgriffsoops, climate, not barbican15:31
kgriffsmisread the topic in the meeting channel15:31
kgriffsthey are talking about something called #vbroundbag15:32
kgriffs"There is, however, an opportunity to have a speaking platform at the Summit that you may want to pursue. New to the Atlanta Summit the #vbrownbag Tech Talks will be onsite. The TechTalks offer a forum for community members to give ten minute presentations. TechTalks have a small in-person audience and will be livestreamed in real time. Additionally the presentations are video recorded and published to YouTube. If you are intere15:32
kgriffssted in"15:32
flaper87kgriffs: I think we could release another version of the client next week. I think we should play around with it a bit and test the claim stuff well enough first15:33
flaper87Like, releasing it on Tuesday / Wednesday15:33
kgriffsflaper87: ok, maybe do that and post something to the ML asking for other people to try it and report back.15:34
kgriffsflaper87: so, how are people finding out about votes on their talks/workshops?15:34
kgriffsDid I miss an email?15:35
flaper87kgriffs: I'm not sure. I was wondering when those results would have been made public and BANG! I got an email this morning15:37
Guest88731kgriffs: apparently a lot of people are missing the email15:37
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amitgandhikgriffs: there is an internal email going around currently about it15:38
flaper87amitgandhi: Ah yeah, I read that email and replied too.15:39
* flaper87 is messing with amitgandhi15:39
amitgandhiits ok flaper87, you are a racker in my mind =D15:39
flaper87haha, :D15:39
flaper87on a more serious note15:39
flaper87I did read it from ametts laptop, I just didn't replied15:40
* amitgandhi may need to pay flaper87 some bitcoin to get that access ;-)15:40
kgriffsflaper87: so, just to confirm, neither proposal got enough votes? (talk, workshop)15:41
flaper87kgriffs: I'll forward you the email :)15:41
flaper87kgriffs: but the workshop may get accepted15:41
flaper87it's more something like: "If one of the accepted presenters has a terrible accident and can't attend, then you may have a chance"15:42
maliniso lock one of the accepted presenters in their hotel room ?15:42
amitgandhiwe own this town, jus sayin15:43
maliniWe have the POWER!!15:43
malinilets just give the talk at Olympic Park15:44
flaper87I want everyone +1'ing this email, NOW!
amitgandhiOlympic Park (Centennial Park?)15:45
amitgandhiflaper87: i was the first to +1 it =D15:46
amitgandhimalini:  you owe me15:46
flaper87amitgandhi: good boy!15:46
* flaper87 gives amitgandhi a scooby snack15:46
malinithanks amitgandhi! you dont talk abt these deals in public15:47
* amitgandhi mmmm schrooby schnack15:47
kgriffsd00d. "and had to make some tough decisions for the schedule."15:47
kgriffsthat is some serious fodder for conspiracy theorists15:47
kgriffsflaper87: ^^^15:47
flaper87sounded pretty much like that15:52
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kgriffsfolks, gotta go again. ttfn.16:13
flaper87kgriffs: kk16:14
flaper87AAzza: malini dropped a comment on your patch16:18
AAzzaflaper87: yeah) I saw) updating now)16:18
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flaper87AAzza: are you lisp programmer or what? :P16:20
AAzzaflaper87: hmmm, as far as I know - no)16:20
flaper87AAzza: hahaha16:21
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openstackgerritNataliia Uvarova proposed a change to openstack/marconi: Add more unit tests for message controller
AAzzaand by the way is there more storage tests to add/modify? I can search for myself, but if you want smth special, you can order)16:29
notmynamekgriffs_afk: flaper87: just read the buffer playback. as you know I'm a big fan of marconi (although still haven't looked at the code or installed it ;-)). let me know where I can be useful16:29
flaper87notmyname: thanks a lot! We'll start working on a set of discussions and evaluations that we'd like to bring to the mailing list. We'll ping you as soon as we sort a plan out16:36
flaper87notmyname: thanks for the support :)16:36
notmynameflaper87: I've got several use cases that I want to use it for, both inside and outside of swift (but none of them involve compute.....)16:36
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flaper87notmyname: hehehe. I'm curious to know what those use cases are and if we can start doing something right away (or during Juno)16:46
flaper87malini: ping16:46
maliniflaper87: pong16:48
flaper87malini: erm, I think we have a problem. That patch for the devstack stderr issue seems to always send marconi-server to the background16:48
flaper87malini: have you tried it ?16:48
maliniflaper87: I know it does16:48
maliniis that a problem?16:49
flaper87malini: well, if I want to keep it in the foreground it is :D16:50
notmynameflaper87: container sync (in swift), utilization (swift ecosystem), management eg cluster hardware health (swiftstack), distributed test runner, trigger/callback system in swift (eg drop a message in a queue when an object is updated in a container)16:50
maliniflaper87: want to open a bug for that?16:53
flaper87malini: well, this hack should be temporary, right?16:54
flaper87malini: I mean, we should find a better way to do it that doesn't imply forking this process16:54
maliniflaper87: we didnt intend it to be temporary :-P16:54
flaper87malini: not big deal now, really16:55
flaper87malini: LOOOOL16:55
notmynameflaper87: note than in precisely zero of those use cases I want marconi to provision an AMQP broker for me :-)16:59
flaper87notmyname: haha, that's a relief and a good point :P17:00
flaper87notmyname: those sound like very interesting use cases. Do you think we could have a session during the next summit where we could discuss this scenarios ?17:01
flaper87notmyname: (using one of Marconi's slots)17:01
notmynameflaper87: ya, I'll work it in between the 4 conference talks, swift summit sessions, and customer meetings ;-)17:01
flaper87What I'd like to get from such a session is where Marconi is standing and what needs to be done to fulfill those use-case's requirements17:02
notmynameflaper87: in all seriousness, though, yes. I'd love to be a part of that, if at all possible :-)17:02
flaper87notmyname: lol, lucky you, none of my talks got accepted :(17:02
notmynameflaper87: the "Swift trigger" use case is an interesting one, I think. I've seen how it could be very useful in Swift itself (container sync), from SwiftStack customers, and in 3rd-party ecosystem projects (ie ZeroVM)17:04
flaper87notmyname: awesome. We could use that session to examine the "Swift trigger" use case and how other parts of swift could use that as well.17:07
notmynameflaper87: cool. if you do submit/accept a session on that, please mention it in #openstack-swift and #zerovm.17:08
flaper87notmyname: will do!17:09
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openstackgerritJenkins proposed a change to openstack/marconi: Updated from global requirements
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