Monday, 2014-07-07

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krotscheck#startmeeting StoryBoard15:00
openstackMeeting started Mon Jul  7 15:00:13 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is krotscheck. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'storyboard'15:00
krotscheckGood morning, beautiful people!15:00
krotscheckOk, so looking at the agenda I see two major things which I think are going to take the majority of the discussion time.15:00
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krotscheckSo I’m going to rearrange the meeting a bit and get the quick stuff out of the way.15:00
krotscheck(Those two items being Vision and Search)15:01
jeblairkrotscheck: link to agenda?15:01
* krotscheck makes a note to self to make someone else update meetingbot with agenda pages.15:01
krotscheck#topic Ongoing Work.15:01
*** openstack changes topic to "Ongoing Work. (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)"15:01
krotscheckIsh is still in HP background check hell.15:02
* krotscheck is super annoyed at HR processes.15:02
krotscheckI spent last week with a bunch of rebases, specification docs, and getting annoyed at font encoding engines. Ultimately, little actual progress, though we did manage to land Quicknav.15:03
krotscheckMaxV: You around?15:03
krotscheckGuess not. NikitaKo_ ?15:03
NikitaKo_I'm here15:03
NikitaKo_So, I've been working on Teams API15:04
* krotscheck saw that, and likes where it’s going.15:04
NikitaKo_The DB part is on review15:04
NikitaKo_The superusers migration is also there15:04
NikitaKo_and the REST part is comming15:04
NikitaKo_I've also started looking at oslo.db15:05
krotscheckNikitaKo_: Oh? Is that new and/or somethign we should really use?15:05
NikitaKo_and I guess we will be able to migrate soon15:05
NikitaKo_Nothing new there, but now it will be installed through requirements.txt15:06
NikitaKo_which means no code syncs15:06
krotscheckThat’s nice.15:07
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NikitaKo_that's all from my side15:07
krotscheckttx: You wrote a pretty spiffy vision doc, which we’ll talk about in a bit. Anything else?15:07
ttxI iterated on Tags specs. Haven't worked on team/groups although I think the use cases I contributed to is probably most of it15:07
ttxso not sure a separate doc is still needed on that?15:07
krotscheckFair point. NikitaKo_? Thoughts?15:08
MaxVkrotscheck: hello15:09
ttxkrotscheck: I can give it another thought and if I have more, propose it in a comment on that spec15:09
krotscheckttx: That’ll work.15:09
ttxif we think it belongs to another doc we can still wiki it15:09
krotscheckMaxV: Hey there! Any updates from last week?15:10
NikitaKo_krotscheck: re separate spec, I need to have a look15:10
MaxVkrotscheck: No, I didn't had the time due to scss introduction in Horizon, but I think I will be able to make some patches and reviews during this week15:10
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krotscheckMaxV: Wow, sounds like y’all are doing good work over there :)15:11
MaxVkrotscheck: I have started a script to avoid to download node again on each run15:11
krotscheckAlright, Let’s see if teams and permissions can be merged.15:11
krotscheckMaxV: That would greatly speed up our builds.15:11
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krotscheckMaxV: It might be intersting to look at Trusty as a build node, since the version of node on that is way more recent. I’m a few months removed from that code though...15:12
jeblairMaxV: ++15:12
krotscheckAlright, on to specs...15:12
krotscheck#topic Specs15:12
*** openstack changes topic to "Specs (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)"15:12
krotscheckSo, from previous comments it sounds like Teams/Permissions are still under discussion.15:13
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krotscheckFYI - I just added the permissions spec because it was on Etherpad and I didn’t want to lose my thoguhts there, if it becomes superfluous then we can get rid of it.15:13
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krotscheckMost of the specs discussion (from past history) will likely focus on search, so I’d like to mention the others first.15:14
krotscheckFirst question for jeblair: At what point is a spec “approved”? For example, we’ve got the subscriptions spec, and it seems to have settled, and we’re already putting some of the pieces into place for that, but it’s not “Approved” yet.15:15
krotscheckjeblair: So what’s the expectation there?15:15
krotscheckOk, so teams & permissions are still up for discussion.15:17
jeblairkrotscheck: i'll take a look at that again soon then15:17
krotscheckOther than that we still have search.15:17
krotscheckttx, you added a comment to the search spec that I thought was interesting.15:17
krotscheckQuote: “The client-side implementation looks good. However game is not over yet on the server side final implementation. Maybe we could split this into initial search and scalable search, since it looks like we are implementing the first now ?”15:18
jeblairkrotscheck: approved is, well, approved -- so when an infra-core leaves an approval vote15:18
jeblairkrotscheck: and the patch lands to the repo15:18
krotscheckjeblair: Does it seem strange to you that storyboard-core can’t approve its own specs?15:18
jeblairkrotscheck: not at all.  storyboard is a constituent project of the infrastructure program, and the overall direction of that program is set by the ptl and core team15:19
jeblairkrotscheck: i plan on seeing that you, ttx, and other important players are in agreement before approving storyboard related specs15:19
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krotscheckGot it.15:19
krotscheckI disagree, but now’s not the time to talk about that.15:20
krotscheckOn to ttx’s comment.15:20
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jeblairkrotscheck: if i do something you don't like there, feel free to discuss it with me.  you can always run for ptl or take it up with the tc.15:20
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krotscheckI thought his comment was intersting in the split between “initial search” and “scaleable search"15:20
jeblairkrotscheck: and as a last resort, you're welcome to work on whatever projects you want outside of the context of the openstack project.15:20
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krotscheckSee, the client implementation is purely a browse UI.15:21
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NikitaKo_There is a change for the server side15:21
jeblairkrotscheck: but as long as you're trying to work within it, please do attempt to follow our processes.15:21
krotscheckjeblair: Have I not?15:21
jeblairkrotscheck: you said you disagreed with them.15:22
krotscheckjeblair: As I said: A bit out of context for the scope of this meeting, so I’ll drop you a private email later. Honestly, I feel like most of the things will end up on the disucssion for the vision doc.15:22
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NikitaKo_which can be called "initial"15:22
NikitaKo_here it is
* krotscheck is getting split between two conversations.15:23
jeblairkrotscheck: i didn't start the conversation, but i am prepared to finish it.  i look forward to your email.15:23
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ttxkrotscheck: my point there is that I expect the discussion on the final server-side solution to take a bit of time -- and it shouldn't block the client-side implementation (which uses the primitive server-side SQL-backed search)15:23
krotscheckjeblair: Yes please, I’ll drop you a line (I don’t disagree with process, just with underlying assumptions)15:23
krotscheckI totally agree with you ttx.15:24
ttxwe can "improve" the server-side afterwards15:24
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NikitaKo_I also agree15:24
ttx(inserts something about bridges being crossed)15:24
NikitaKo_Action item for me to split it15:24
krotscheck#action NikitaKo_ Split search specification into “inital” and “scaleable"15:25
krotscheckI like the initial abstraction on that.15:25
krotscheckSo it sounds like initial search has consensus, do we want to talk about scaleable search?15:26
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* krotscheck may be wrong in assuming consensus.15:26
ttxit's fine by me (initial)15:26
ttxI don't have strong opinions on scaleable, i'll defer to those who will implement/maintain the beast15:27
* krotscheck has been familiarizing himself with the guts of Lucene/ES recently, so that he knows what he’s talking about :)15:28
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NikitaKo_Anyway the scalable solution will require messaging and a a lot of changes to puppet modules15:28
krotscheckMessaging would be driving index rebuilds, yes?15:28
NikitaKo_krotscheck: yes15:29
NikitaKo_I think it makes sense to use messaging for both notifications and indexing15:29
krotscheckNikitaKo_: I agree.15:30
krotscheckI’m a little worried that my own self-investment in that spec (due to my authorship) is making me blind to other potential solutions though, so if anyone has different thoughts...15:30
* krotscheck doesn’t want messaging to be the hammer and everything else to be a nail.15:31
krotscheckAnything else on specs before we switch over to Vision?15:31
krotscheck#topic Vision Document (ttx)15:32
*** openstack changes topic to "Vision Document (ttx) (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)"15:32
ttxOK, so I drafted a basic vision while you were celebrating independence, trying to stay high-level and hopefully implementation-agnostic15:32
ttxI wrote remarks at the bottom15:32
ttxabout things that were not as self-evident as the rest15:33
ttxwhich may trigger more discussions imho15:33
krotscheckAs it should :)15:33
ttxNot sure if the rest of the "vision" is fully consensual though15:33
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ttxit's just that it flowed consistently when I wrote it15:34
ttxwhile the two sticky points felt more artificially attached15:34
ttxI still stand by those, because I still think it's the easiest way to solve that hole in our tooling15:34
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ttxbut I welcome discussion on them15:34
krotscheckHonestly, I love that doc because I can pull actual features out of it very quickly.15:35
ttxit's a first draft, comments welcome15:35
krotscheckCase and point: The first paragraph tells me that tasks do not necessarily have to be attached to code.15:35
ttxkrotscheck: did I manage to stay implementation-agnostic enough ?15:36
ttxThe only thing that's pretty hardcoded in there is the task/story relationship15:36
krotscheckttx: Yes. I see no python.15:36
krotscheckThe third paragraph also tells me that personal goals are a separate way of organizing tasks.15:36
krotscheckI have one question: Does the spec meaningfully change if we replace “gerrit” with “code review system”?15:37
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krotscheck(similar with git vs. source control)(15:37
ttxkrotscheck: no. we could say code review system and VCS15:38
* ttx fixes15:38
krotscheckWhich of the notes do you want to talk about?15:38
krotscheckThe bug vs task tracker is interesting.15:39
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krotscheckWe have the “is_bug” flag in the db righ tnow.15:39
ttxso, another thing that emerged from this is that we could have 3 types15:39
ttxfeature, bug and vulnerability15:40
ttxwhich are the key components of changelogs/release notes15:40
krotscheckInteresting distinction15:40
ttxtaking a step back allowed me to see the 3rd type15:40
ttxsince I suddenly no longer saw it as a bug, but as a piece of release information to convey15:40
ttxthat said, if we drop the changelog task and let the VCS build it for us, it's a non-issue15:41
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ttxback to bugtracker/tasktracker15:41
ttxthe problem with bug tracking is that it's almost a workflow that happens before the main use case (task tracking) happens15:42
ttxwe can make the task tracker bug-submission friendly (which is the way we started to do that)15:42
ttxor we can try to have a separate tool / separate panels for bug submission/triaging15:42
ttxI still think the first option is the simplest, but i'm ready to have a long thought about it15:43
ttxI know that particular bit was bothering gothicmindfood as well15:43
krotscheckThat kindof jives with some of the UX feedback I got around the workflow for a feature. Design discussion is something that happens well before any tasks are assigned, right?15:43
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ttxkrotscheck: that's one way of seeing it yes... You could also consider it's just one of the tasks15:44
ttxtask 015:44
ttxespecially now that it lands in a code repo15:44
* krotscheck wonders if a bug is simply a story with the Bug system tag15:44
ttxand we can track the status of that15:44
krotscheckHi there, ish_!15:45
ish_Hi Michael..15:45
ttxkrotscheck: the trick there is... developers create stories and tasks for themselves in most cases. They may look at bugs and triage them, but it's almost a separate workflow15:45
krotscheckttx: Workflow-by-tag?15:46
* krotscheck is just throwing concepts up against the wall here.15:46
ttxkrotscheck: yeah, probably the simplest15:46
ttxkrotscheck: alternative is to have an incident response component in parallel of the task tracking component15:46
ttxbut I fear that the former would get ignored15:46
krotscheckttx: Not if we surface it.15:47
ttxgiven that our devs are all cats15:47
* gothicmindfood might be tired, but often thinks bugs are just a tag15:47
krotscheckI like cats15:47
krotscheckI have two of them. As long as you have a little shiny red dot they will go wherever you want them to.15:47
ttxkrotscheck: anyway, I just wanted to single out that those two parts of the "vision" were probably the ones were discussion should still happen15:47
* gothicmindfood also requests a joke 'feature' tag to put with bugs if someone wants15:48
ttxdo you see anything questionable in the rest of the vision ?15:48
ttxdoesn't mean it's done or designed -- the whole "organize their work" thing is pretty nebulous at this point15:49
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krotscheckttx: Well, given that we can (soon) describe a search via a fixed set of criteria, saving those criteria into your own customized dashboard isn’t hard :)15:50
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krotscheckttx: Ok, so what part in particular do you want more focus on?15:51
NikitaKo_krotscheck: do you mean we need something like gmail has, when you do a search and then say "create me a filter by that search" ?15:52
krotscheckNikitaKo_: That’s what I’m thinking. Rather than try to proscribe what goes on someone’s dashboard, let people design it themselves.15:53
krotscheck(and then go in and figure out what people have actually built, and inform our use cases from that)15:53
krotscheckBut that’s pie-in-the-sky right now.15:54
krotscheck#topic Open Discussion15:54
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)"15:54
ttxkrotscheck: I think the focus should still be on the milestones we defined on the roadmap15:54
NikitaKo_users could build their subscriptions with the same mechanizm then15:54
krotscheckttx: I agree15:54
ttxkrotscheck: defining them after user adoption requirements is a pretty fgood way of doing it15:54
krotscheckNikitaKo_: Yup.15:55
krotscheckOk, so we have 5 minutes, are there any major roadmap blockers that we’re running into?15:55
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krotscheckOne thing I noticed is that we have lots of admin-related tasks but we don’t have any place to really put them into the UI.15:56
krotscheckOh, also, ttx: Are project groups an admin thing or a anyone thing right now?15:56
ttxkrotscheck: I think it can be an admin thing15:57
ttxcoupled with personal project subscription15:57
ttxshould cover most cases...15:57
krotscheckttx: Admin it is then.15:57
krotscheckNobody has any roadmap blockers/15:58
krotscheck(Other than code reviews? :) )15:58
NikitaKo_nothing that I can see15:58
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"15:59
openstackMeeting ended Mon Jul  7 15:59:40 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)15:59
openstackMinutes (text):
krotscheckThanks everyone15:59
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jcoufalhi, any UXers around?16:59
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jackibjust the two of us?17:01
jcoufalhey Jacki17:01
lblanchardI'm here too, but I have an overlapping meeting17:01
jcoufalwe will see17:01
lblanchardso I hope to be somewhat available during this hour :)17:01
jcoufalwaiting for more attendees17:01
rbertramHorizon UX meeting?17:01
kadenceAhi. I'm new around here - sitting in to learn a bit17:02
jcoufalkadenceA: welcome17:02
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jcoufal#startmeeting UX17:02
openstackMeeting started Mon Jul  7 17:02:53 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is jcoufal. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.17:02
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: UX)"17:02
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'ux'17:02
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jcoufalHello everybody17:03
jcoufalFirst of all I have to apology, I need to leave in 30 min, but feel free to continue afterwords without me17:03
jcoufal#topic Meeting alternating times17:03
*** openstack changes topic to "Meeting alternating times (Meeting topic: UX)"17:03
jcoufalSo last meeting we didn't have many attendees17:04
jcoufalso it looks that the alternating times are confusing17:04
jcoufalespecially with bi-weekly occurance17:04
jcoufaltherefore there was suggestion to keep the meetings regular, on Mondays this time, every other week17:05
jcoufalwith this we can put into the meetings some regularity17:05
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jcoufaldo you all agree? or is there anybody against this proposal?17:06
rbertramI think it's a usability enhancement17:06
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jcoufalgeneral agreement, nice17:07
jcoufalso next meeting will be in 14 days, the same time as this one17:07
jcoufal#topic Wireframes review tool17:08
*** openstack changes topic to "Wireframes review tool (Meeting topic: UX)"17:08
jcoufalAdi couldn't make this meeting, but is there anybody who can give update on the progress here?17:08
lblanchardI left my feedback in the etherpad…does anyone have the link?17:08
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jcoufaljackib probably?17:08
jackibit's not on the meeting page17:08
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jcoufalAlright, it looks there are still just 2 given options, with some feedback left17:11
jcoufalif nobody has any updates...?17:11
jackibI don't have anything17:11
jcoufalthen I wll need to sync with Adi to see what's going on there17:12
jcoufal#topic Faceted Search17:12
*** openstack changes topic to "Faceted Search (Meeting topic: UX)"17:12
jcoufallast meeting we discussed this briefly but within smaller audience so we punted the topic to this meeting17:13
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jcoufalthere is quite old blueprint for this:
jcoufalbut recently started by Travis17:13
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jcoufalThe goal is to provide rich powerful search engine for Horizon17:14
jcoufaland the question is - Is anoyone in the UX group actively working on this? Has anyone given feedback in the past on it from a design perspective?17:14
lblanchardI have not been actively working on this...17:14
david-lyleso the work in that bp is dependent on a limited amount of meta-data that will be stored in glance in the future17:15
jcoufalIs anybody interested in helping and designing here?17:15
david-lylethat's not the short term answer or perhaps even the long term17:15
jcoufaldavid-lyle: does that mean that until Glance supports this, we cannot do anything in Horizon, right?17:16
david-lyleI would like to see a concept that incorporates current API capabilities17:17
david-lyleand include the meta-data queries once available17:17
jcoufaldid Travis moved somehow forward with that? Do you know about some initiative?17:17
david-lyleTravis started work on this before the summit, there was a grander architecture in mind, but the scope changed17:18
david-lyleso a giant db of all things in openstack isn't going to happen17:18
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david-lylewhat the graffiti work has become is storing meta-data definitions in glance17:19
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jcoufalalright, I guess we should wait with some UX designs until some architecture concept is done first17:20
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david-lylejcoufal: it would be beneficial to work on the UX of search based on API capabilities17:21
lblanchardwould an ideal search on table design be helpful?17:21
david-lylethat's an accomplishable goal and would still be a great improvement17:21
lblanchardWould it help drive requirements?17:21
david-lylelblanchard: I think designing to use current API capabilities and how to improve upon that to drive development17:22
david-lylewould be highly useful17:23
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david-lylelblanchard: so yes, as long as it builds on what's currently available17:25
david-lylecapabilities wise, not current implementation wise17:25
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lblancharddavid-lyle: okay thanks17:27
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lblanchardjcoufal: unfortunately I don't have cycles currently to take this on…maybe keep it on the agenda to ask…or maybe we just need a blueprint for UX around it?17:28
jcoufalalright, I think we will get back to this topic at least one more time17:28
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jcoufal#topic Open Discussion17:29
*** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: UX)"17:29
jcoufalnow it's time for any agenda you have on top of your mind17:29
jcoufalany question, feel free to ask or to point to something17:29
* zehicle side note - if you are looking for Refstack. we're on -alt17:29
david-lylelaunch instance?17:29
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david-lyleI don't feel like we have a solid plan forward on improving the launch instance flow17:30
jcoufalI am sorry I need to leave now, but please don't get disturbed and continue17:30
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david-lylejcoufal: add lblanchard as a chair so she can end the meeting17:30
jackibCedric and Maxime are setting up some usability testing for later this month17:30
jcoufaldavid-lyle: you know how to add a chair?17:30
jackibtesting the version Maxime did and potentially some mocks for another option17:30
david-lyle#chair lblanchard17:30
jcoufal#chair lblanchard17:31
openstackCurrent chairs: jcoufal lblanchard17:31
jcoufalthat was easy :)17:31
jcoufalthanks, I will still be around though17:31
jcoufalhave a great day all and thank you for participation17:31
lblanchardalrighty…anyone have anything else around faceted search?17:31
david-lylejackib: I feel the current proposed improvements are a bandaid of sorts, I think something more drastic is necessary17:32
david-lylebut I may have missed some points in the conversation17:32
jackibwell…I agree but I think doing some testing will prove that…and then give us a reason to change that design17:33
lblanchardoh sorry we are already on open discussion :) Some chair I am!17:33
jackibrather than starting over17:33
david-lylejackib: I don't have a grand idea for it, so I'm in favor of incremental improvement, but I don't know that it will get us all the way there17:34
david-lylebut can improve the experience in the interim17:35
lblanchardjackib, david-lyle: yeah, I agree…since there has been work done to improve it already by some folks maybe we can do the testing and drive even more changes based on testing feedback17:35
lblanchardones that feel less like bandaids?17:35
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jackibthat's kinda what I was thinking17:35
jackibI think we revisit after the testing - put the results out there and get feedback on proposed solutions17:36
jackibI'd like the testing to happen sooner, but I'm not doing the planning :)17:36
david-lyleI'm going to play with a more visual workflow, if I can ever find the time17:37
* david-lyle won't ever find the time :(17:38
jackibhmmmm….if you elaborate on what you mean I could give you a hand17:38
ToshiI feel like from implementation point of view, if it is provided more like general UI component, that'd be great.17:38
david-lylejust thinking about building the instance out of the elements almost topographically17:39
ToshiIs it only for instance view?17:39
ToshiI mean is it re-useable for other UI?17:40
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david-lyleToshi: nowhere near that far yet, maybe the framework17:41
david-lyleI may be off in left field, let me try to work through it a bit more17:41
david-lyleat least wireframe it17:42
Toshidavid-lyle: got it17:44
david-lyleLike a lot of things in Horizon, I just feel like we can paint a better picture than we are now to help the user understand the relationship amongst the components17:44
david-lyleToshi: I think the network topology is a great example17:44
david-lylethanks for that :)17:44
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Toshidavid--lyle:Thanks, grad to hear that :)17:45
lblanchardany other topics?17:46
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lblanchardsounds like that's all I guess...17:48
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lblanchardthanks everyone…I believe our next meeting will be in two weeks on Monday the 21st17:49
jackibbye! ;)17:49
david-lylelblanchard: #endmeeting17:50
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"17:50
openstackMeeting ended Mon Jul  7 17:50:13 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)17:50
lblanchardthanks all!!17:50
openstackMinutes (text):
lblancharddavid-lyle:  :)17:50
david-lylethanks lblanchard17:50
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