Thursday, 2014-11-27

etoewsi'm just making a quick edit of the meeting wiki page00:00
cyeohcool :-)00:00
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etoews#startmeeting api wg00:01
openstackMeeting started Thu Nov 27 00:01:36 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is etoews. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.00:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: api wg)"00:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'api_wg'00:01
etoewsi just updated the agenda00:01
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etoews#topic voting00:03
*** openstack changes topic to "voting (Meeting topic: api wg)"00:03
cyeohI guess I should really update that one00:03
etoewsi haven't had a chance to fully review that00:03
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elmikoi was kinda curious to see the next revision00:04
etoewscan you tl;dr?00:04
cyeohyea I'll get to that today my time and merge in the comments00:04
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etoewswhat's the consensus?00:04
cyeohI guess the only thing I'd like to really retain is that the voting %'s are based on who turns up to vote, not who is eligible to vote00:04
cyeohI think that would make it easier to get things through at this stage (we can tighten things up later if we want to)00:05
elmikoetoews: not sure i can tldr it well, there's a bunch of detail about how the process should work out.00:05
etoewscyeoh: that seems reasonable to me.00:05
elmikocyeoh: that makes sense, do we need some sort of minimum number for a quorum?00:05
cyeohelmiko: i suggested 5 in the comments00:06
elmikocool, missed that one00:06
cyeohif things look like they're going crazy with that being too small then we can always revisit...00:06
elmikoi can envision it being an issue, but i feel like with the time frames involved for voting it won't be a huge deal.00:07
etoewsdoes that minimum of 5 need to have a particular role? e.g. wg member, ptl, tc, etc.00:07
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cyeohetoews: honestly I think we should just go for speed for now, so no. those who are interested.00:08
cyeohit is all still marked as draft (I did merge that)00:08
cyeohand the TC still has the final say on the document overall before we can get out of draft - so there is sanity checking00:08
elmikoit seemed to me that the idea of creating a hierarchy would definitely need to be discussed00:08
cyeohelmiko: I'm ok with the there being more processes once we have more of a document (say a 1.0)00:09
elmikocyeoh: agreed, i just noticed that even talking about "wg members" proved to be contentious00:10
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cyeohelmiko: in the current document we have two gates to the document coming out of draft. The TC and the PTL rep vote - but that's just on the document overall, not on a per patch basis which I thikn would be too small00:10
etoewsso what happens in the case that the tc disagrees with some small detail of the guidelines? they veto publication and we fix small detail?00:10
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cyeohetoews: yea, I'd hope it would not go to a vote, that they'd just give us feedback ahead of time so we could fix00:10
elmikocyeoh: yea, after thinking about it more, i think the gate measures in place are good enough for what we are proposing, even if membership is wide open.00:10
etoewsso an action item for cyeoh to update it?00:12
etoews#action cyeoh to update based on feedback00:12
cyeohso for the record I am going to be pretty much out and uncontactable after 4th december until january. So after that point anyway should feel to update the patch if its not yet merged00:13
etoewss/anyway/anyone/ ???00:13
elmikocyeoh: good to know00:14
cyeohwell anyone who is really interested (sorry, unfortunately unavoidable but I have to go in for some surgery and not sure of recovery time yet00:14
elmikono worries, and good luck =)00:14
etoewscyeoh: youch. all the best.00:15
etoews#topic APIImpact flag00:15
*** openstack changes topic to "APIImpact flag (Meeting topic: api wg)"00:15
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etoewslooks like people are starting to use the APIImpact flag :)00:15
cyeohyes :-)00:16
elmikoyea, was gonna say it's a nice list00:16
etoewsis there anything we should look at right now?00:17
cyeohI think this one is worth a look:
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cyeohits proposing another use of resource/action on a resource00:18
cyeohwe do this a bit already in Nova especially in /servers/ but my understanding is that its not really well liked (bit of a hack)00:18
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cyeohso I'm interested in what people think00:18
miguelgrinbergyeah, actions are not good to have in URLs00:19
cyeohbit of background - this is for remove a server from a server group00:19
miguelgrinbergis the server a standalone resource?00:19
elmikomiguelgrinberg: i thought actions were acceptable if they are accessing an api function?00:19
cyeohI suggested DELETE /v2/fake/os-server-groups/<server_group_id>/<server_id> instead00:19
miguelgrinbergelmiko: acceptable by who? According to REST guidelines this is always bad.00:20
etoewsDELETE seems more natural to me too00:20
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miguelgrinbergif the individual server has a URI, then send a DELETE to that guy, yes00:21
cyeohmiguelgrinberg: yes, we generally access server stuff through /servers00:21
cyeohmiguelgrinberg: in this case we're not deleting the server, just removing it from the server group00:21
miguelgrinbergthen send a PUT to the group00:21
miguelgrinbergand include all the servers in the group minus the one you are removing00:22
cyeohwhat is currently proposed in the spec is /v2/fake/os-server-groups/<server_group_id>/action00:22
cyeohmiguelgrinberg: a bit racey though isn't it?00:22
miguelgrinbergI see that the URI ends with /action, that cannot be a URI of a group resource00:22
stevelleis there additional metadata associated with the server's membership in the group?  that would make it a proper resource.00:22
cyeohstevelle: no a server is simply in the group or not00:23
miguelgrinbergwhat stevelle suggests is always a viable option. Have a resource that maintains the membership of a server to a group, then DELETE that resource00:23
stevellecyeoh: that would generally support miguelgrinberg's suggestion it seems00:24
cyeohmiguelgrinberg: is that what a server_group_id is?00:24
cyeohi mean isn't that what a server group id is?00:24
cyeohyou create through os-server-groups resource a server group which contains a list of server_ids00:24
miguelgrinbergI need to look up the API docs, I can't find that in this patch00:25
stevelleDELETE /v2/fake/os-server-groups/<server_group_id>/<server_id> seems legitimate as well to me00:25
etoewsthe api docs for the rest of the ops would be a big help here00:25
stevelleits a very specific statement about how to patch the server - group membership00:25
cyeohmiguelgrinberg: yea this is just a proposal to be able to remove a server from a group since that was not supported in the original impl00:25
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etoewsstevelle: maybe DELETE /v2/fake/os-server-groups/<server_group_id>/servers/<server_id>00:26
stevelleetoews: also acceptable to me00:26
miguelgrinbergcyeoh: what's in the "members" attribute in the response when you ask for a server group?00:26
stevelledon't believe we have come to any convention on the topic of naming resources before identifying them in paths00:26
miguelgrinbergis it URIs or IDs?00:26
cyeohmiguelgrinberg: id's  - we only very very rarely have uris in nova00:27
miguelgrinbergI think we need to separate our discussions into the practical and the forward looking.00:27
miguelgrinbergIf we talk about the best solution, then I would put URIs to group-membership resources in that list00:28
miguelgrinbergthen you can DELETE any of those00:28
miguelgrinbergof course we'll have to figure out something else for the short term00:28
miguelgrinbergmore in line with current practices00:28
cyeohnote that ids refer to the servers ids (so we don't want to delete them)00:28
miguelgrinbergcyeoh: yes, I understand that00:29
etoewsi expect that currently you can't even refer to individual servers in a server group00:29
etoewsi would expect to get a list of servers in a group at /v2/fake/os-server-groups/<server_group_id>/servers/00:29
cyeohetoews: yea, can't do that, only can get it through the members list00:30
cyeohbut I think I understand what you're saying now00:30
cyeohso anyone I think it'd be nice if we can comment what the least-worst solution is for what we have now00:31
cyeoh(on the proposed spec)00:31
miguelgrinbergthe problem with /servers is that it doesn't give you the membership, we are still missing the concept of a group membership, which is what you may want to remove00:31
miguelgrinbergyes, that makes sense00:31
cyeohI think /action is the worst solution ;-)00:31
miguelgrinbergbut it is consistent with other things currently in place, correct?00:32
cyeohwe do use actions a lot on /servers00:32
miguelgrinbergah, I see, there is no /actions on server-groups yet00:32
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cyeohbut I've heard a few people complain about it. Yea, nothing on server-groups yet so we can avoid it00:32
stevellethe reboot action does not have a clear HTTP verb00:32
miguelgrinbergso what do you think if the members list is sent in a PUT request without the server that needs to be removed?00:33
cyeohmiguelgrinberg: my first thought is potentially racey?00:33
miguelgrinbergis this async?00:33
cyeohsomeone adds one while someone deletes one?00:33
etoewsit's also kind of painful for a client to code to00:33
miguelgrinberghow bit are these groups normally?00:34
etoewsyou can never just remove a server membership00:34
etoewsyou always need to know all the members00:34
cyeohmiguelgrinberg: I don't really know, I guess they could get pretty big. mostly just used for affinity at the moment I think, but either way I think only being able to set the group is awkward. and we won't support adding a server for a whiel00:35
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miguelgrinbergwell, given the current state of things, editing the members list is the most restful option, without having to go into exposing URIs for memberships00:37
miguelgrinbergand it leaves the door open to additions when they are implemented00:37
miguelgrinbergis this members list paginated?00:38
miguelgrinbergor is there ever a situation where you would get a partial list00:38
cyeohdon't know for sure, I doubt it00:38
miguelgrinbergwhat do you think about having a /server-groups/<group-id>/servers/<server-id> resource?00:40
miguelgrinbergthat would be a membership resource, you can delete it to remove the membership00:40
miguelgrinbergand if you query the /servers you get the list00:41
cyeohmiguelgrinberg, etoews: if you could put your suggestings on the spec I think that would help (otherwise its likely to get just approved as-is)00:41
cyeohmiguelgrinberg: I'd be ok with that. I think it heads in the right direction00:41
elmikomiguelgrinberg: that option makes a lot of sense for me00:41
miguelgrinbergcyeoh: okay, I'll comment on the spec00:41
miguelgrinbergmy only (minor) concern is that it may look like you are deleting the server, not the membership00:42
etoews#action miguelgrinberg to comment on regarding restfully removing a server from a group00:42
elmikomiguelgrinberg: what about your suggestion earlier of having a membership id that could be deleted?00:42
etoewsi need to leave in a few minutes. can someone else end the meeting?00:42
cyeohetoews: only you have the power to end the meeting :-(00:43
miguelgrinbergthat would be this, I'm just saying that having a URL in form /groups/<group-id>/servers/<server-id> may seem like it points to a server, while it points to a membership00:43
elmikook, yea i could see that00:43
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miguelgrinbergstill better than what's proposed00:43
etoewsinstead of /servers/ it could be /server-memberships/ ?00:44
miguelgrinbergah, that would help00:44
elmikothat at least makes it clearer00:44
sigmavirus24+1 for good naming00:45
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etoewsor maybe its /group-memberships/ ?00:45
sigmavirus24(sorry for arriving late)00:45
etoewsdepends on the perspective...00:45
stevelleadding /members/ is shorter and coincides with a glance v2 api00:45
stevellebut I like the long form00:46
elmikoat that point do you even need the "group-" part?00:46
etoewsi'll stick around until 7 to end the meeting and just be late for my next thing. :P00:46
cyeohyea the only thing that could be a member is a server anyway00:46
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elmikoseems clearly spelled out in the uri /groups/<group-id>/memberships/<server-id>00:47
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etoewsi'd prefer consistency with glance and use /members/00:48
miguelgrinbergthese memberships are given when the group is created, correct?00:48
cyeohmiguelgrinberg: yes currently that is the only way00:48
elmikoetoews: agreed00:48
etoewsmembers is also consistent with what's in the json body00:48
cyeohetoews: +100:48
etoewsdo we want to try another APIImpact or move on to api-wg proposals?00:49
elmikoprobably should move on, only 10mins left00:50
stevelleother agenda items (if any) then circle back?00:50
sigmavirus24== stevelle00:50
etoews#topic Reviews00:50
*** openstack changes topic to "Reviews (Meeting topic: api wg)"00:50
etoewsi just updated my proposal.00:51
etoewsinitial feedback is positive00:51
etoewsanyone care to bring up another one?00:51
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miguelgrinbergI added the async counterpart, if anyone cares to review:
cyeohmiguelgrinberg: looks good to me00:53
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etoewsme too00:53
elmikomiguelgrinberg: lgtm, one piece of whitespace aside00:54
miguelgrinbergI think we should concetrate on simple statements, and get them merged asap. There's always going to be time to fine tune.00:54
etoewsthere's a bit of psuedo code in the paragraph00:54
etoewsdo we want to call it out with a slightly different format?00:54
etoewsthe only reason i ask is because in the first sentence it ends with the if statement but the next sentence starts with an if statement.00:55
etoewsit's just a bit harder for me to parse00:56
miguelgrinbergokay, I'll see if I can condense that, I tend to be wordy sometimes, to leave any possible ambiguity00:56
cyeohetoews: yea I think things like pseudo code/ rationale should be formatted differently00:56
elmikomiguelgrinberg: +100:57
miguelgrinbergokay, I'll reword, remove the whitespace and resubmit later today00:57
etoews#action miguelgrinberg to reword, remove the whitespace and resubmit
etoewsthanks everyone!01:00
miguelgrinbergthank you, see you next time01:00
elmikoetoews: thanks for chairing =)01:00
etoewshave a good holiday weekend if it's a holiday weekend where you are.01:00
cyeohetoews: thanks!01:00
etoewshave a good surgery if you're having surgery in the next couple of weeks.01:00
etoewsseriously though cyeoh. all the best.01:01
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"01:01
openstackMeeting ended Thu Nov 27 01:01:22 2014 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)01:01
openstackMinutes (text):
cyeohetoews: thanks. lots of movie watching for me over the next weeks :-)01:01
etoewsbye for now.01:02
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yamamotono l3 meeting today?15:04
jschwarzno l3 meeting?15:04
yamahatadue to thanksgiving?15:04
jschwarzahh right15:05
amullergood, less meetings :)15:06
amullerThanksgiving, giving us one more thing to thank for15:06
jschwarzI don't need to be thankful for anything ;p15:07
jschwarzhey - i have a free hour! thanks guys!15:07
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yamamotoapparently usa is the whole world15:08
yamamotogood night15:09
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