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| vineetmenon | alaski: Do we have meeting today nova-cell-v2? if yes at what time? 1700 UTC or 2200 UTC? | 09:01 |
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| alaski | vineetmenon: it's at 2200 today. I am going to show up for it but I'm guessing it will be really light and fast today | 14:42 |
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| amuller | armax: drivers meeting is supposed to be now right? | 15:03 |
| armax | amuller: I am actually confused, but I think it might start in 30 mins | 15:03 |
| armax | mestery is offline so I suspect that’s the case | 15:04 |
| armax | hang on, just a tad longer ;) | 15:04 |
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| salv-orlando | aloha fellow drivers. | 15:05 |
| salv-orlando | armax I now recalled that it’s actually in 24 minutes | 15:06 |
| vineetmenon | alaski: yeah.. it will be fast today.. Only 'Pacificers' and some owls from Europe, IMO. :) | 15:06 |
| salv-orlando | mestery move it but we never updated our calendars I think | 15:06 |
| armax | the meeting page says the meeting starts on the half of the hour | 15:07 |
| armax | so I am going to flood myself with a pint of coffee | 15:07 |
| amuller | Tonight: Tragedy in California; Man literally drowns himself in coffee | 15:08 |
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| armax | amuller: ah…I survived! | 15:14 |
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| amuller | Good news! | 15:14 |
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| mestery | aloha neutron drivers! | 15:29 |
| * mestery steals salv-orlando's trademark entrance music | 15:29 | |
| armax | yello | 15:30 |
| salv-orlando | ALOHA | 15:30 |
| mestery | lol | 15:30 |
| mestery | markmcclain: Yo! | 15:30 |
| mestery | #startmeeting neutron-drivers | 15:30 |
| markmcclain | hi | 15:30 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Nov 26 15:30:43 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mestery. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:30 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron-drivers)" | 15:30 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_drivers' | 15:30 |
| mestery | nice timing markmcclain ;) | 15:30 |
| mestery | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/NeutronDrivers Agenda | 15:30 |
| mestery | We have a short agenda | 15:30 |
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| mestery | And amotoki cannot make it today. | 15:31 |
| mestery | #topic Sub-Team Charter Review | 15:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Sub-Team Charter Review (Meeting topic: neutron-drivers)" | 15:31 | |
| mestery | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/NeutronSubteamCharters | 15:31 |
| mestery | Has anyone looked at these yet? | 15:31 |
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| armax | I did, sir | 15:31 |
| mestery | Any early thoughts armax? | 15:31 |
| markmcclain | I was waiting on the sub-team for sub-teams to organize | 15:31 |
| mestery | rofl | 15:32 |
| dougwig | lol | 15:32 |
| armax | :) | 15:32 |
| mestery | I like what carl_baldwin has done for L3 there. | 15:32 |
| mestery | He has specific BPs/specs he's tracking for Kilo | 15:32 |
| mestery | dougwig, you also have a clear charter for LBaaS | 15:32 |
| mestery | Although no unicorns dougwig :( | 15:33 |
| mestery | Only rainbows | 15:33 |
| dougwig | ha | 15:33 |
| armax | we’d need to monitor how this page evolves, as it looks the list is potentially not complete yet | 15:33 |
| mestery | armax: Yes, agreed. | 15:33 |
| mestery | Mostly just wanted an early look today, and to make sure drivers were looking at it :) | 15:33 |
| armax | but I think it makes sense to be explicit upfront about the fact that subteams are not lifelong teams | 15:33 |
| mestery | ++ | 15:33 |
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| mestery | #info Continue tracking Sub-Team Charter page for another week | 15:34 |
| markmcclain | I am concerned about adv svcs.. not sure what they're actually setting out to accomplish | 15:34 |
| mestery | #info Ensure people are aware sub-teams are not lifelong teams | 15:34 |
| armax | one thing that’s not clear | 15:35 |
| mestery | That one stood out for me too markmcclain | 15:35 |
| markmcclain | also the edge vpn… should that be something that starts out in stackforge? | 15:35 |
| armax | is what we do if as a drivers team does not feel a subteam should exist | 15:35 |
| mestery | Well, either stackforge or in the new vpnaas repo | 15:35 |
| armax | or cannot be supported effort-wise by the core team | 15:35 |
| mestery | armax: Move it to stackforge? | 15:36 |
| salv-orlando | markmcclain: my guess it that the adv svcs charter is a stub at the moment | 15:36 |
| markmcclain | yeah… I still think we need to better scope the barbican interaction since it seems necesarry | 15:36 |
| armax | right, but that might still need help by the core | 15:36 |
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| markmcclain | salv-orlando: ok if it is a stub then we should prob ask for clarity | 15:36 |
| mestery | armax: Agreed, but maybe we encourage iteration in stackforge while the cores have no time? | 15:36 |
| armax | what if for instance | 15:36 |
| armax | I want to come up with my own subgroup | 15:36 |
| armax | but drivers team feels there’s no scope for it in Kilo at all | 15:37 |
| salv-orlando | markmcclain: I don’t know if they want to commit to that… it’s so vague that makes me wonder what the team is there for | 15:37 |
| armax | the charter is per-cycle after all | 15:37 |
| armax | the subteam can still work indepently and locally | 15:37 |
| markmcclain | right folks can still self organize | 15:37 |
| mestery | Right, we're not preventing that | 15:37 |
| armax | but at one point there would be an interaction point with the core | 15:37 |
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| markmcclain | but this is really to say these teams are doing tracked work for Kilo | 15:38 |
| mestery | ++ | 15:38 |
| armax | what if the core can’t commit to it by Kilo. Do we even have to worry about it? | 15:38 |
| mestery | That's the real gist there | 15:38 |
| mestery | These teams should be tracking actionable work for Kilo | 15:38 |
| mestery | OR whatever release we're currently on | 15:38 |
| salv-orlando | yeah that’s pretty much it for me. I think we aim at tracking sub-teams that do stuff which has to be part of the deliverable of this release cycles | 15:38 |
| salv-orlando | if other groups of people do stuff more or less related to neutron in stackforge, we don’t have a need to keep track of them. | 15:38 |
| armax | ok, but if the team produces deliverables in stackforge | 15:39 |
| armax | why would we even track it here? | 15:39 |
| salv-orlando | even though obviously they can “interact” with neutron core | 15:39 |
| mestery | Right | 15:39 |
| mestery | We're not saying we'll ignore them | 15:39 |
| mestery | Just that if they are doing work for Kilo we can track it in a sub-team | 15:39 |
| salv-orlando | it’s not like we tell them “sorry, you’re stackforge I won’t talk to you. Go away!" | 15:39 |
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| mestery | armax: Makes sense? | 15:39 |
| salv-orlando | mestery: yes, that’s pretty much it in my opinion | 15:39 |
| armax | ok | 15:39 |
| armax | not sure what’s the value in that, but ok | 15:40 |
| armax | for instance the edge vpn team | 15:40 |
| salv-orlando | it’s funny no subteam stated an endgoal | 15:40 |
| salv-orlando | jusrt lbaas has “exit criteria" | 15:41 |
| armax | their charter is pretty clear | 15:41 |
| kevinbenton | What is the drivers team endgoal? | 15:41 |
| marun | lol | 15:41 |
| armax | is the core gonna do any anthing about it this cycle? | 15:41 |
| salv-orlando | kill the other teams | 15:41 |
| mestery | rofl | 15:41 |
| markmcclain | haha | 15:41 |
| mestery | The drivers team can go away when people stop proposing specs for neutron kevinbenton. | 15:42 |
| mestery | Since our goal is to approve specs :) | 15:42 |
| marun | not really | 15:43 |
| amuller | So lbaas subteam is done when there's no more bugs and RFEs? | 15:43 |
| dougwig | if we need to be a sub team after v2, i'll ask for another charter. | 15:43 |
| kevinbenton | mestery: so wouldn't the L3 team exist for an also undefined amount of time? | 15:43 |
| salv-orlando | maybe the rest of the teams can indict the drivers team and ask for its suppression :) | 15:43 |
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| markmcclain | dougwig: right that's the correct way to do it | 15:43 |
| mestery | salv-orlando: I'd prefer a revolt personally, there's more bloodshed that way | 15:43 |
| markmcclain | I also think a valid charter is to be dedicated to the ongoing stable maintenance of a feature | 15:43 |
| mestery | kevinbenton: If the L3 team has things to accomplish in "L", then it can re-charter | 15:44 |
| dougwig | otherwise, bugs get folded into whichever team is involved (neutron), and we're not going anywhere. | 15:44 |
| markmcclain | especially if that sub area requires SME | 15:44 |
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| salv-orlando | I think at some point we can consider the L3 team complete… once DVR-related items are complete, BGP is introduced, and it scales to a point that it won’t be a concern in large deployments | 15:44 |
| kevinbenton | mestery: ok | 15:44 |
| salv-orlando | frankly I expect the L3 team to be done either for Kilo or L | 15:44 |
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| mestery | My guess would be L, not sure BGP lands in Kilo at this point, but maybe | 15:44 |
| kevinbenton | salv-orlando: l3 is not done until I see ISIS support | 15:45 |
| markmcclain | salv-orlando: agreed.. I was guessing M | 15:45 |
| salv-orlando | kevinbenton: that is an acronym you can’t use anymore on IRC unfortunately. It’s been hijacked. | 15:45 |
| salv-orlando | and now you’ve got CIA and NSA on your back | 15:45 |
| kevinbenton | salv-orlando: that just occurred to me :) | 15:45 |
| * mestery thinks we're all being watched anyways | 15:46 | |
| kevinbenton | IS-IS | 15:46 |
| dougwig | salv-orlando: it's not like kevinbenton is going to bomb an airport and kill the president. | 15:46 |
| armax | kevinbenton: try IS-IS | 15:46 |
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| mestery | dougwig: Now we're in trouble | 15:46 |
| armax | oh my | 15:46 |
| dougwig | come on wiretaps. | 15:46 |
| dougwig | :) | 15:46 |
| * markmcclain awaits knock on his door from three letter agents | 15:46 | |
| armax | I am gonna leave this room | 15:46 |
| kevinbenton | What's a letter agent? | 15:46 |
| salv-orlando | markmcclain knows that even mentioning agencies puts them on your back ;) | 15:47 |
| mestery | OK, lets focus again. | 15:47 |
| mestery | Sub-Teams: We'll keep waiting for more people to add charters and re-review next week. Sound good? | 15:47 |
| salv-orlando | sounds good to me. | 15:47 |
| markmcclain | mestery: I'm intrigued about Kevin's holiday plans with a now frozen bank account :p | 15:47 |
| mestery | lol | 15:48 |
| mestery | As if on queue ... | 15:48 |
| kevinbenton | So IIUC each sub team justifies its existence at the start of each cycle | 15:48 |
| salv-orlando | markmcclain: I think he’s going to cuba.. the easternmost tip | 15:48 |
| mestery | #topic Service Split BP | 15:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Service Split BP (Meeting topic: neutron-drivers)" | 15:48 | |
| mestery | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/136835/ | 15:48 |
| mestery | Wanted to make sure the drivers are getting in on the fun with this one. | 15:48 |
| mestery | We almost had 80 comments for revision one | 15:48 |
| dougwig | 84, i thought | 15:48 |
| mestery | Right dougwig, we did cross 80, apologies :) | 15:48 |
| dougwig | sorry, 82 | 15:48 |
| mestery | I think dougwig has done a good job with most of the technical details here | 15:49 |
| mestery | But I wanted to highlight we're now proposing per-service repositories | 15:49 |
| dougwig | the three biggest hot areas are: governance (which isn't even covered by the spec), whether extensions move before they're refactored, and the notion of making the services auto-install somehow with neutron in the kilo cycle. | 15:50 |
| mestery | This will let each services team iterate at their own pace | 15:50 |
| mestery | Thoughts? | 15:50 |
| salv-orlando | mestery: that maes more sense. | 15:50 |
| marun | auto-install? | 15:50 |
| markmcclain | mestery: +1 | 15:50 |
| mestery | #info For the services split, we will have a per-service git repository, letting teams iterate at their own pace. | 15:50 |
| dougwig | marun: you install neutron, you get lbaas v1, fwaas, vpnaas automatically, so your upgrade doesn't break any existing deployments. in mark's email to the TC, it was stated as neutron having a dependency on the services project. | 15:51 |
| marun | Isn't that up to the distros/packagers? | 15:51 |
| markmcclain | backwards compatibility makes it a bit messy | 15:51 |
| markmcclain | marun: the master much follow deprecation cycles | 15:52 |
| markmcclain | s/much/must/ | 15:52 |
| marun | I'm saying it doesn't necessarily matter for distros/packagers. | 15:52 |
| marun | We don't have the same backwards compatibility requirements as upstream. | 15:52 |
| markmcclain | correct the distros can work with their customers to meet their needs | 15:52 |
| dougwig | so can we strike that as a technical issue and just work with the distros on packaging? | 15:53 |
| marun | maybe not | 15:53 |
| salv-orlando | dougwig: so are the services splitting or cloning? And in the latter case, the “original” ones in neutron will go in the deprecation path? | 15:53 |
| dougwig | splitting. the goal is to get some code out of neutron. | 15:54 |
| marun | is the idea that neutron would reference the new distributions of the services as explicit dependencies? | 15:54 |
| mestery | For LBaaS, the new neutron-lbaas project will also take lbaasv1 with it | 15:54 |
| mestery | right dougwig ? | 15:54 |
| dougwig | mestery: right | 15:54 |
| salv-orlando | mestery: so when you talk about backward compability we’re talking about it from a deployer perspective, not consumer, is that right? | 15:54 |
| dougwig | marun: if necessary, yes. something that makes packaging implicit to the outside world, though i don't like the circular requirements.txt dependency | 15:55 |
| marun | dougwig: yeah, that would be messy | 15:55 |
| mestery | salv-orlando: Yes | 15:55 |
| marun | dougwig: at least in the case of the vendor decomposition there's only one explicit dependency | 15:55 |
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| salv-orlando | cool thanks. It seems to me we’re having a discussion we should have in gerrit. | 15:56 |
| markmcclain | dougwig: yeah working through how we can make the deps unidirectional | 15:56 |
| marun | salv-orlando: because chatting via comments is so much better than irc? | 15:56 |
| mestery | salv-orlando: ++ | 15:56 |
| salv-orlando | marun: it’s just that I think the meeting is over soon :) | 15:57 |
| salv-orlando | dougwig: have you tried to play a bit with the code to see how the spin off for lbaas for instance would work? | 15:58 |
| dougwig | markmcclain: right now i've got it specified as a circular dependency with a hacking check in neutron to prevent it being used circularly. which is barely palatable because i know the circle gets broken in a cycle or two. but i'd love to hear a better way. | 15:58 |
| mestery | I am good with a 30 minute meeting today :) | 15:58 |
| markmcclain | dougwig: yeah… I keep thinking if there is a way have a weak dep | 15:58 |
| markmcclain | mestery: ++ to short meeting | 15:59 |
| dougwig | salv-orlando: i have played with the also git script and experimented with two repos. | 15:59 |
| dougwig | oslo | 15:59 |
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| armax | perhaps we need a third repo | 16:00 |
| armax | to break the circular deps? | 16:00 |
| marun | oy | 16:01 |
| marun | make neutron depend on the repos, because it has to | 16:01 |
| dougwig | like a networking umbrella repo? i had thought of that, but it won't solve the "pip install -U neutron" case, so to speak. | 16:01 |
| marun | make the services not depend on neutron and require an explicit install | 16:01 |
| markmcclain | marun: eventually yes, but we'll have to tackle to short term operator impact | 16:01 |
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| marun | markmcclain: which operator is not going to install neutron? | 16:02 |
| marun | it's only the folks that want to try to install services without neutron that have to do an extra step | 16:02 |
| marun | i.e. not people with an existing install | 16:02 |
| dougwig | the services repos are spec'ed to include neutron as a library dependency in kilo, so separate service installs aren't in the cards right now. | 16:03 |
| mestery | Yes, for Kilo, lets keep it that way dougwig. | 16:03 |
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| marun | dougwig: but doesn't that imply that the services have an explicit dependency on Neutron? | 16:04 |
| marun | dougwig: Given the compat requirements the explicit dep would seem more necessary for Neutron, and unless I"m missing something there can only be one. | 16:04 |
| kevinbenton | So we have a circular dependency issue if we want neutron to auto install services | 16:04 |
| dougwig | they do right now, since they have to import neutron to reach under the covers. | 16:04 |
| marun | dougwig: They can import Neutron without having the explicit dep | 16:05 |
| dougwig | kevinbenton: hence the messiness. :) | 16:05 |
| marun | dougwig: It just requires an explicit install step. | 16:05 |
| marun | i.e. pip install neutron-lbaas neutron | 16:05 |
| kevinbenton | marun: that's just a temporary hack, right? | 16:05 |
| kevinbenton | Because that's exactly the opposite of the real dependency | 16:05 |
| dougwig | just import and pray in kilo? hmm, that's a possibiility | 16:06 |
| marun | kevinbenton: Sure, for however long we need backwards compat | 16:06 |
| salv-orlando | I believe that what marun is suggesting is acceptable, but I’m no operator | 16:06 |
| marun | salv-orlando: I would hope documenting this requirement would be sufficient for any given operator. | 16:06 |
| mestery | Also +1 to marun's idea, seems like it would work | 16:06 |
| dougwig | the only place it really bites you is if you install a service in a way that would process requirements.txt, and have an older neutron, and then you'll import weirdness. but i don't think that's a real scenario. | 16:06 |
| marun | I like to think they have brains | 16:06 |
| mestery | lol | 16:06 |
| marun | dougwig: It will probably happen, but again, docs :) | 16:07 |
| salv-orlando | I also understand markmcclain’s point. But if I had to choose between a circular dependency and requiring operators to do an additional manual step after pkg upgrade, I’d vote for the manual step | 16:07 |
| salv-orlando | still, if you have a 3rd option which will give us the best of both worlds, the we’ll go for that | 16:08 |
| marun | (pony!) | 16:08 |
| kevinbenton | Nobody reads docs | 16:08 |
| dougwig | i'll go with marun's idea unless someone pulls some magic out of a hat. | 16:08 |
| marun | kevinbenton: true. it's more a 'get out of jail free' card | 16:08 |
| marun | kevinbenton: 'something went wrong? did you read the docs?' | 16:09 |
| kevinbenton | Yeah | 16:09 |
| armax | what about hte usual RTFM | 16:09 |
| armax | ? | 16:09 |
| marun | trying to avoid channeling linus | 16:09 |
| kevinbenton | That's what people say when they have bad UX :) | 16:09 |
| marun | but that would work too | 16:09 |
| armax | :) | 16:09 |
| dougwig | linus strikes me as more of a PEBKAC kind of guy. | 16:10 |
| salv-orlando | oh you don’t say RTFM in openstack. We simulate respect for others | 16:10 |
| marun | hah | 16:10 |
| kevinbenton | Dougwig made a good point though. This will just be a weird corner case | 16:10 |
| mestery | lol | 16:11 |
| * mestery thinks we've ratholed deep enough | 16:11 | |
| salv-orlando | ok… can you guys remind me why are we worrying about that if it’s a weird corner cases that can be easily documented and distros don’t really care about it? | 16:11 |
| mestery | salv-orlando: See rathole comment above | 16:11 |
| mestery | ;) | 16:11 |
| dougwig | we're not, we're just dribbling into IRC. | 16:12 |
| salv-orlando | indee | 16:12 |
| armax | either way we go, people need to be aware that something in Kilo changed | 16:12 |
| dougwig | continue rathole in gerrit. i want to break 100 comments on this rev. | 16:12 |
| armax | so they need to document themselves of the potential pitfalls | 16:12 |
| mestery | I think it's safe to assume people can read, now whether they do that is harder to predict | 16:12 |
| armax | right | 16:12 |
| mestery | "Hey, new shiny thing!" <Throws manual away and starts playhing> | 16:12 |
| armax | our job should stop at ‘documenting' | 16:12 |
| salv-orlando | dougwig: it’s like you win a teddy bear if you reach 100 comments on a single patchset… you win that if you reach 100 patchsets! | 16:12 |
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| * dougwig writes down his new goal. | 16:13 | |
| *** Ark is now known as Guest8638 | 16:13 | |
| dougwig | i'll just submit PS1 as ruby, and let people review it as python. | 16:13 |
| * mestery pulls us back out of the hole | 16:13 | |
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| mestery | OK, make sure to review dougwig's spec if you haven't. | 16:13 |
| mestery | Good stuff in there. | 16:13 |
| mestery | And it's important, we need to be moving forward on this next week if we want to make progress before the holidays | 16:13 |
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| salv-orlando | mestery: I think they’ll go back to the manual immediately after upgrade once their neutron server won’t start because it does not find the lb service plugin | 16:14 |
| mestery | #topic Open Discussion | 16:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: neutron-drivers)" | 16:14 | |
| mestery | Anything else? | 16:14 |
| mestery | salv-orlando: If they can find the manual ;) | 16:14 |
| kevinbenton | Ihar has made a point on the vendor pl | 16:14 |
| kevinbenton | Vendor split* | 16:14 |
| armax | kevinbenton: I am actually pushing another revision shortly | 16:14 |
| kevinbenton | That Red Hat will likely not create packages for the vendors | 16:14 |
| kevinbenton | Unless they are partners | 16:15 |
| armax | ihar’s point is well taken, but I think that makes quite a bit of sense | 16:15 |
| marun | Unless a vendor has zero extra dependencies, I'm not sure that's really a problem. | 16:15 |
| mestery | I'll I'm going to say here is that the only way to make that possible (packages by distros) is if we have a single, shared repo for all the plugins and drivers, not in neutron itself. | 16:15 |
| dougwig | so? where the packages stop, pypi takes over. | 16:15 |
| mestery | And that presents a whole host of other issues | 16:15 |
| kevinbenton | It's a problem for our code | 16:15 |
| marun | mestery: The problem of having extra non-Neutron deps is common to pretty much any solution. | 16:16 |
| kevinbenton | Because we have no other deps | 16:16 |
| mestery | marun: Ack | 16:16 |
| armax | we can always figure out ways to make everyone happy, but all things considered, potential lack of packaging is not the real stopper to adoption of a specific vendor solution IMO | 16:16 |
| marun | mestery: So if we solve some of it, they still have work to do. | 16:16 |
| marun | i.e. install contrail is not our job. | 16:16 |
| mestery | marun: Exactly | 16:16 |
| mestery | I agree marun | 16:16 |
| mestery | Frankly, the plugin/driver is the easy part | 16:16 |
| marun | So pretty much any vendor has to be able to package and distribute extra deps. | 16:16 |
| mestery | The controllers are likely way harder to install | 16:16 |
| *** zigo has quit IRC | 16:16 | |
| marun | Either with a distro's help or otherwise. | 16:17 |
| kevinbenton | Marun we don't now | 16:17 |
| salv-orlando | I think we already had this discussion about packaging and we reached a consensus that it was the plugin maintainer interest to ensure it was packaged properly? | 16:17 |
| marun | kevinbenton: You don't have software to install? | 16:17 |
| kevinbenton | No | 16:17 |
| marun | kevinbenton: just hardware? | 16:17 |
| salv-orlando | I am sure I bored you for about 20 minutes last week with this packaging story | 16:17 |
| kevinbenton | Yes | 16:17 |
| kevinbenton | Perhaps we are a corner case | 16:17 |
| kevinbenton | But there are no extra python libs for big switch | 16:18 |
| marun | kevinbenton: Hmmm... I'm not sure why I assumed bigswitch was primarily a software solution, my bad. | 16:18 |
| kevinbenton | Or code on the openstack nodes | 16:18 |
| salv-orlando | marun: you’re so 2012! | 16:18 |
| kevinbenton | Marun: we have an optional vswitch | 16:18 |
| kevinbenton | But it is optional precisely because we had some pushback from installing extra stuff | 16:19 |
| salv-orlando | anyway, let’s leave the controllers aside, and focus on another comment from the hyper-v team that they’re concerned of being neglected because their plugin has a smaller user base. | 16:20 |
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| kevinbenton | Oh well, I don't think I need to waste more of this meetings time | 16:20 |
| salv-orlando | what should we answer them to reassure they won’t end up being forgotten? | 16:20 |
| marun | I guess offline discussion is suggested then. | 16:20 |
| kevinbenton | Salv-orlando by who? | 16:20 |
| dougwig | we have ten minutes, unless there's another topic... | 16:20 |
| marun | That we want to focus our efforts on benefiting as large a part of the community as possible? | 16:20 |
| natarajk | Does the vendor code decomposition scope include vendor L3 service plugins also ? | 16:21 |
| mestery | dougwig: Now you've jinxed us :( | 16:21 |
| alexpilotti | salv-orlando: it’s not because of the user base size | 16:21 |
| salv-orlando | ah see hear it from alexpilotti. I did not want to offend you saying you’ve got a small user base ;) | 16:21 |
| mestery | natarajk: Not for stage one, but I defer to armax. Those will be spun into the respective service repositories. | 16:21 |
| armax | natarajk: I would think so | 16:21 |
| alexpilotti | salv-orlando: np, and thanks for raising this up :-) | 16:22 |
| kevinbenton | armax +1 | 16:22 |
| natarajk | armax: Thanks. I didn't see any mention of vendor of L3 service plugins in the spec. That's why the question | 16:22 |
| armax | I am sure there was, I’ll make the extra effort to emphasize | 16:22 |
| alexpilotti | salv-orlando: we definitely agree on getting the drivers out of Neutron | 16:22 |
| alexpilotti | our main concern is that if the drivers will land out of core (e.g. devstack), there will be different perceptions | 16:23 |
| mestery | So, for devstack, have folks seen this? | 16:23 |
| mestery | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/137054/2 | 16:23 |
| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: that's why all are being separated | 16:23 |
| mestery | That spec proposes pluggable devstack | 16:23 |
| salv-orlando | alexpilotti: did you mean devstack or stackforge? | 16:23 |
| mestery | And I think devstack will push to get rid of a lot of things upstream with regards to drivers :) | 16:24 |
| mestery | alexpilotti: Your conversation made me think of that | 16:24 |
| alexpilotti | salv-orlando: stackforge, horrible lapsus, sorry :-) | 16:24 |
| alexpilotti | the docs team already agreed in documenting only fully end to end open source stacks | 16:24 |
| dougwig | alexpilotti: well, they will have different perceptions because there are different realities. you're trading in-tree code for a healthier core project and more flexibility with your own code. that's the crux of agreeing to the split. | 16:24 |
| alexpilotti | dougwig: the way you put it, it sounds like you guys are kicking us out for Neutron’s benefit | 16:25 |
| salv-orlando | I think the “stackforge is a terrible place to be” discussion has come often. My answer in short is that it’s as good as any other place to keep your code public, but work is needed at the community level to communicate that if you go to stackforge is not because you’ve been booted out | 16:25 |
| alexpilotti | not caring about what actually happens with the plugins as it’s not your responsability anymore :-) | 16:25 |
| alexpilotti | my question is: since the plugin today is core code, why can’t we still be core? | 16:26 |
| alexpilotti | I mean, teh people writing and maintaining that code are the same | 16:26 |
| alexpilotti | so I don’t get why we should go back to the starting port (aka StackForge purgatory) | 16:27 |
| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: it's consuming community resources | 16:27 |
| dougwig | if we're cold-blooded, that is one of the net advantages. but i don't think the intent is to "kick out" or to lose the community aspect; merely to change the interface by which that happens. that's far from not caring. (i'm not a core, and i am a vendor, btw, so this is just my opinion.) | 16:27 |
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| armax | alexpilotti: core of what? | 16:27 |
| armax | stackforge is no purgatory | 16:27 |
| alexpilotti | teh plugins are a community asset, of course they consume community resources! | 16:27 |
| armax | I think people should refrain from making such statements | 16:28 |
| marun | alexpilotti: 'community asset'? | 16:28 |
| alexpilotti | armax: of cours it is: you have to wait to cycles before asking to be admitted in core “heaven” | 16:28 |
| mestery | communit assett? | 16:28 |
| mestery | We can't even test most of htem because they require proprietary controllers or HW | 16:28 |
| mestery | How are they community assetts? | 16:28 |
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| alexpilotti | the plugins are | 16:28 |
| marun | alexpilotti: core heaven is a process-heavy development environment that I wouldn't wish on anyone that didn't absolutely require it | 16:28 |
| armax | alexpilotti: there will no longer be a core heaven, and let me tell you, today the core is far from being heaven, perhaps hell if you ask me | 16:28 |
| mestery | armax: ++ | 16:28 |
| alexpilotti | the underlying technology not | 16:28 |
| mestery | marun: ++ | 16:28 |
| mestery | All the effort we've done to try to get people to test their code, run CI systems, all of that takes cycles from cores and other people upstream | 16:29 |
| mestery | It's a huge effort | 16:29 |
| kevinbenton | I think an analogy would be the way Linux drivers are a community asset | 16:29 |
| alexpilotti | armax: sure, nova for example for us is the closest thing to hell we’ve been in | 16:29 |
| marun | alexpilotti: neutron in it's current state is worse than nova | 16:29 |
| alexpilotti | mestery: we run our own CI | 16:29 |
| mestery | alexpilotti: You guys do a good job with that, but others ... | 16:30 |
| marun | alexpilotti: are you saying you find that productive? | 16:30 |
| alexpilotti | marun: trust me: you guys are angels in comparison ;-) | 16:30 |
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| marun | alexpilotti: I guess our standards differ. | 16:30 |
| alexpilotti | mestery: yeah, but why do we have to pay the price for others? | 16:30 |
| salv-orlando | alexpilotti: but still, we won’t be able to list any driver-specific item in kilo priorities, just like nova | 16:30 |
| mestery | OK we're at time | 16:30 |
| mestery | Thanks for a productive discussion folks. | 16:30 |
| mestery | #endmeeting | 16:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:30 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Nov 26 16:30:48 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:30 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2014/neutron_drivers.2014-11-26-15.30.html | 16:30 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2014/neutron_drivers.2014-11-26-15.30.txt | 16:30 |
| salv-orlando | adieuuuuu | 16:30 |
| marun | alexpilotti: everyone pays. | 16:30 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_drivers/2014/neutron_drivers.2014-11-26-15.30.log.html | 16:30 |
| alexpilotti | all we want is to be independent (so outside of neutron, nova, etc) | 16:30 |
| dougwig | bye | 16:31 |
| armax | alexpilotti: right | 16:31 |
| armax | and this effort enables to do that | 16:31 |
| alexpilotti | while still publishing our code on a place which can be considered THE openstack code | 16:31 |
| armax | this won’t change | 16:31 |
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| alexpilotti | it will | 16:31 |
| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: no, there will still be a hyper v folder | 16:32 |
| alexpilotti | as stackforge is not THE opensatck code repository | 16:32 |
| armax | are you saying that it will change? | 16:32 |
| armax | alexpilotti: that does not matter | 16:32 |
| armax | if you think it does, then there’s nothing we can say to change your mind, really | 16:32 |
| alexpilotti | in url terms, all I’d like to have is: https://github.com/openstack/hyper-v-drivers | 16:32 |
| alexpilotti | (or whatever the name will be) | 16:32 |
| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: it will just be a much smaller integration layer | 16:32 |
| marun | alexpilotti: Why should neutron have to carry of vendor-specific code that we don't understand and can't maintain? | 16:32 |
| marun | alexpilotti: Makes zero sense. | 16:32 |
| marun | alexpilotti: The proposed separation of concerns is for everyone's benefit. | 16:33 |
| armax | alexpilotti: that url you’re so fond of | 16:33 |
| alexpilotti | marun: to be clear, I don’t want this code to remain in Neutron | 16:33 |
| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: you can't have something in the OpenStack name space | 16:33 |
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| armax | has greater implications | 16:33 |
| armax | and you’ll have even more oversight than the one you already have | 16:33 |
| alexpilotti | kevinbenton: well, now I have it (as part of Neutron) | 16:33 |
| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: there are a bunch of infra rules governing how those are created | 16:33 |
| marun | alexpilotti: I don't understand why you expect OpenStack to continue blessing code we don't understand and can't maintain. | 16:34 |
| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: you will still have a folder in the neutron code | 16:34 |
| marun | alexpilotti: Providing this separation makes the responsibilities clear to both maintainers and end users. | 16:34 |
| armax | with the decomposition there will be a part of the hyper-v code that will still be part of neutron | 16:34 |
| alexpilotti | marun: because we (the driver mainteners) are part of the OpenStack community as much as you guys are | 16:34 |
| armax | the part that neutron does not need to worry about can be anywhere | 16:34 |
| armax | even in https://github.com/alexpillotti/hyper-v-drivers | 16:35 |
| armax | no-one should care | 16:35 |
| armax | but you | 16:35 |
| alexpilotti | there should be a new project for a driver with a new set of cores | 16:35 |
| armax | or anyone who works with you | 16:35 |
| marun | alexpilotti: You are free to do that. | 16:35 |
| armax | and you can do whatever you want with this repo | 16:35 |
| armax | push with or without control | 16:35 |
| marun | alexpilotti: Why you would want the openstack process to slow you down is beyond me. | 16:35 |
| alexpilotti | armax: you don’t really get it | 16:35 |
| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: hyper v specific code is not relevant to the community | 16:35 |
| marun | alexpilotti: Do you really not like getting things done? | 16:35 |
| armax | alexpilotti: I don’t? | 16:35 |
| armax | ok | 16:35 |
| armax | so I am outta here | 16:35 |
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| alexpilotti | user xyz will never trust code on https://github.com/hohndoe/hyper-v-drivers | 16:36 |
| marun | alexpilotti: They do already | 16:36 |
| alexpilotti | not really | 16:36 |
| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: they won't know where it comes from | 16:36 |
| marun | alexpilotti: there are tons of dependencies that are not openstack-namespaced. | 16:36 |
| marun | alexpilotti: So, what makes your code special that they won't trust it? | 16:36 |
| alexpilotti | well, those dependies become “trusted” in the moment in which the requirements.txt lists them | 16:36 |
| alexpilotti | even if it’s obviously outside of the project’s scope | 16:37 |
| marun | alexpilotti: like talking to a wall | 16:37 |
| marun | alexpilotti: Sorry, but I think you're confusing upstream distribution with how end-users actually consume the code. | 16:37 |
| alexpilotti | I’ll take it like this: you kick the drivers pout from the “core” space :-) | 16:37 |
| marun | Mostly it's through distros like redhat | 16:37 |
| marun | (who I happen to work for) | 16:38 |
| armax | that’s not what we’re aiming for | 16:38 |
| alexpilotti | those “distros” use our code | 16:38 |
| armax | we’re taking out what makes no sense to be in the core | 16:38 |
| alexpilotti | they’re legal teams have huge issues in accepting anything ouside of core, for example | 16:38 |
| armax | that’s nonsense | 16:38 |
| marun | alexpilotti: you want to prove that point? | 16:38 |
| alexpilotti | well speak w them | 16:38 |
| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: neutron depends on tons of packages not in the core | 16:39 |
| armax | there’s exactly no difference from a legal standpoint | 16:39 |
| alexpilotti | marun: I can ask some of them to come out with their opinion | 16:39 |
| armax | so long as the licensing terms are kept equal | 16:39 |
| alexpilotti | I can’t make names now of course | 16:39 |
| marun | alexpilotti: we can make _zero_ guarantees of the quality of code that happens to be in tree | 16:39 |
| marun | alexpilotti: that's why it doesn't belong | 16:39 |
| alexpilotti | marun: that’s why it has to go in another project, where OTHER people guarantee on the quality | 16:39 |
| alexpilotti | those people being the driver mainteners | 16:40 |
| alexpilotti | de facto you trusted us until now | 16:40 |
| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: it will, but that doesn't need to be in openstack | 16:40 |
| alexpilotti | kevinbenton: that’s where we disagree | 16:40 |
| alexpilotti | kevinbenton: we’ve been part of openstack until now | 16:40 |
| alexpilotti | you trusted our code | 16:40 |
| armax | alexpilotti: and you’re continue to be | 16:40 |
| salv-orlando | alexpilotti: by that analogy these “distros” will not install any software that does not come in the OS DVD? Sounds a bit extreme, but I’m sure there a lot of strange realities out there | 16:41 |
| alexpilotti | armax: no | 16:41 |
| armax | now, we clearly failed to convince you | 16:41 |
| alexpilotti | armax: as we won’t be “core” | 16:41 |
| armax | so I see no point to continue this conversation in this venue | 16:41 |
| alexpilotti | I guess we are in a loop :-) | 16:41 |
| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: there will still be a hyper v integration point in neutron! | 16:41 |
| marun | alexpilotti: we've ignored the fact that we have no basis for trusting your code | 16:41 |
| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: to indicate that there is a level of testing | 16:41 |
| marun | alexpilotti: that's not the same as 'trusted' | 16:41 |
| salv-orlando | alexpilotti: since nobody will be “core” these distros of yours will just have to stop using neutron then ;) | 16:42 |
| marun | alexpilotti: but if you want to presume, that's you right | 16:42 |
| dougwig | alexpilotti: marketing of core code aside, realistically speaking, we have a constrained problem that is failing. and it's been ongoing. neutron has insufficient resources to maintain all this vendor code. you can't increase neutron resources quickly. how would you suggest breaking the constaints and solving the problem? and "just let me stay in core" | 16:42 |
| dougwig | isn't breaking any constraint at all; it's the status quo that isn't working. | 16:42 |
| alexpilotti | dougwig: nobody is disagreeing with the solution to the Neutron problem: aka the fact that drivers need to go out | 16:42 |
| alexpilotti | if you look at the ML, I’m fighting with Nova since 2 years to have the same result there | 16:43 |
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| dougwig | so what are you asking for? | 16:43 |
| alexpilotti | geez | 16:43 |
| * mestery is really confused | 16:43 | |
| alexpilotti | 1) get the drivers out 2) keep the drivers in core | 16:43 |
| armax | alexpilotti: there’s no need to use inflamatory language here by the way | 16:43 |
| armax | alexpilotti: calm down | 16:43 |
| armax | please | 16:43 |
| dougwig | alexpilotti: i read that as contradictory. can you explain? | 16:43 |
| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: so maybe for comparison, how do you guys vet the netaddr library | 16:44 |
| alexpilotti | dougwig: let me rewind. Please let me know if you want to move thsi to another channel | 16:44 |
| armax | I might be tempted to say, take it to review | 16:44 |
| armax | but I really don’t see why it would be any different | 16:44 |
| marun | kevinbenton: if I read him right, the fact that openstack explicity depends on it is what qualifies it | 16:44 |
| marun | kevinbenton: the fact that we gate on it | 16:44 |
| alexpilotti | driver sub-teams are de-facto are maintaining their own code | 16:45 |
| armax | it seems like fundamentally we have been unable to express exactly what the intentions are | 16:45 |
| kevinbenton | marun: ack | 16:45 |
| alexpilotti | until now neutron/nova/etc cores blindly trusted the code | 16:45 |
| alexpilotti | we provide | 16:45 |
| marun | kevinbenton: the fact that we don't gate or otherwise test any part of the 'trusted' vendor stuff ourselves - we have to trust 3rd party ci - doesn't appear to be figuring into his thinking | 16:45 |
| alexpilotti | except for the usual “add a unit test here and there“ | 16:45 |
| alexpilotti | we have a CI, which is defending our drivers against regressions in neutron/nova/etc | 16:46 |
| alexpilotti | and at the same time making sure that new code does not break anything | 16:46 |
| alexpilotti | but the first part is the mnost important one | 16:47 |
| alexpilotti | (for driver devs) | 16:47 |
| alexpilotti | the day in which we’ll be out, without being in a TRUSTED localtion | 16:47 |
| alexpilotti | we’ll lose the ability to gate Neutron/nova/etc agains regressions | 16:47 |
| marun | no, you won't | 16:47 |
| dougwig | and your stub in the neutron core isn't trusted? | 16:47 |
| marun | so long as your driver stub is in the tree, 3rd party ci will remain in force | 16:48 |
| alexpilotti | dougwig: stub? | 16:48 |
| marun | that's the precondition for its inclusion | 16:48 |
| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: you will still have CI | 16:48 |
| dougwig | every plugin/driver will have a stub in neutron core that calls out to the real code. | 16:48 |
| dougwig | that's the in-tree hook and review point. | 16:48 |
| alexpilotti | kevinbenton: a driver CI in Neutron? | 16:48 |
| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: the integration point I mentioned earlier | 16:48 |
| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: yes, anyone with an integration point will need to tesy | 16:49 |
| kevinbenton | Test* and report results | 16:49 |
| kevinbenton | Just like now | 16:49 |
| marun | alexpilotti: The only thing that's changing is where the code lives that currently implements a given plugin/driver | 16:49 |
| marun | alexpilotti: some remains in tree, some goes out. same 3rd party ci requirements. run tempest against configured integration point, including configured backend, and return a result | 16:50 |
| alexpilotti | kevinbenton: so if Neutron will contain a requirement, configuration or whatvere saying that the “official” place where driver xyz lives is https://… I’m good | 16:50 |
| marun | alexpilotti: it will | 16:50 |
| dougwig | it will | 16:50 |
| marun | alexpilotti: that's in the spec | 16:50 |
| armax | alexpilotti: dude, read the spec :) | 16:51 |
| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: yes, the requirements.txt in the spec | 16:51 |
| alexpilotti | marun armax: I must have missed it, I read (and reviewed) the specs :-) | 16:51 |
| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: each plugin folder will have one | 16:51 |
| armax | alexpilotti: apparently not thoroughly enough | 16:51 |
| marun | alexpilotti: Each plugin/driver will have a requirements.txt that points to the external dependency. | 16:51 |
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| kevinbenton | alexpilotti: specifies the python library required to operate | 16:51 |
| dougwig | he said he's good, let's all go sing around the campfire now. | 16:52 |
| marun | alexpilotti: It won't allow automatic installation, but it will allow for discovery via other tools and for packaging. | 16:52 |
| alexpilotti | armax: sorry for missing this. This improves the scenario | 16:52 |
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| kevinbenton | dougwig: smoke inhalation leads to increased risk of lung cancer | 16:52 |
| marun | kumbaya! | 16:52 |
| dougwig | gotta die sometime. | 16:52 |
| dougwig | ok, we only a few minutes before this becomes someone else's meeting channel. | 16:53 |
| kevinbenton | Ok | 16:53 |
| dougwig | good discussion, thanks alexpilotti | 16:53 |
| alexpilotti | it’s still a very faint ombelical cord between core and the orphaned drivers | 16:53 |
| kevinbenton | Bye bye folks | 16:53 |
| alexpilotti | but better than nothing :-) | 16:53 |
| alexpilotti | thanks folks! | 16:53 |
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| salv-orlando | I have to admin that I’m struggling to follow this discussion, but I think that 1) being neutron core means nothing. in or out of tree all the plugin will be treated in the same way; 2) the assumption that to be core you’ve got to be in the same repo is nonsense, and I hope we all understand that, and finally 3) packaging wise nothing should change. Plugins will be installed in the same way, with | 16:54 |
| salv-orlando | the difference that they will pull some extra dependencies, which will be packaged and distributed by repos in the same way. | 16:54 |
| dougwig | salv-orlando: it was resolved. :) | 16:55 |
| salv-orlando | It seems to me that the argument if that the code doesn’t come from git.openstack.org/openstack then it’s not trusted | 16:55 |
| salv-orlando | dougwig: good to know | 16:55 |
| salv-orlando | I type slowly today | 16:55 |
| marun | Funny to think that whole thing was about needing an authoritative link to the external dependency to be in the neutron tree. | 16:56 |
| marun | which we had already decided was necessary | 16:57 |
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| alexpilotti | salv-orlando: yes, that was the main point | 16:57 |
| alexpilotti | salv-orlando: but if we have code in git.openstack.org/openstack (your new stubs) pointing to the external code | 16:58 |
| alexpilotti | salv-orlando: this gives a kind of indirect official recognition | 16:59 |
| alexpilotti | we still have to solve the legal issues for the distros, but that’s a separate issue | 16:59 |
| dougwig | this is someone else's channel now... | 17:00 |
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| alexpilotti | dougwig: sorry about that, I didn’t see any start meeting message yet | 17:01 |
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| dougwig | it's almost turkey day, so it might be canceled. but our slot is well over. :) | 17:01 |
| dougwig | i knew it was open until 10 | 17:01 |
| marun | alexpilotti: What legal issues would the distros have to worry about? | 17:01 |
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| alexpilotti | marun dougwig: shouldn’t we move the converstaion to #openstack-neutron ? | 17:02 |
| marun | sure | 17:02 |
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| SridarK_ | Hi | 18:32 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: hi | 18:32 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: hi | 18:32 |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: bobmel: hi | 18:32 |
| bobmel | Hi, lurking in... | 18:32 |
| badveli | yes, sumit hello | 18:32 |
| badveli | hello sridark | 18:33 |
| SridarK_ | badveli: hi | 18:33 |
| SumitNaiksatam | bobmel: doing lurking duties for pcm :-P | 18:33 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | vishwana_: hi | 18:33 |
| SumitNaiksatam | lets get started | 18:33 |
| vishwana_ | hi Sumit | 18:33 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #startmeeting Networking FWaaS | 18:33 |
| vishwana_ | hi all | 18:33 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Nov 26 18:33:46 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is SumitNaiksatam. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:33 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)" | 18:33 | |
| bobmel | SumitNaiksatam: :-) | 18:33 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'networking_fwaas' | 18:33 |
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| SridarK_ | vishwana_: hi | 18:33 |
| vishwana_ | SridarK_: Hi | 18:34 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #announce SPD: Monday 12-8-2014 SAD: Monday 12-15-2014 | 18:34 |
| SumitNaiksatam | just retierating | 18:34 |
| SumitNaiksatam | *reiterating | 18:34 |
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| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: yes the pressure :-( | 18:35 |
| SumitNaiksatam | any other announcements anyone wants to share? | 18:35 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ok moving on | 18:36 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Bugs | 18:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)" | 18:36 | |
| Swami | hi | 18:36 |
| SridarK_ | Swami: hi | 18:36 |
| badveli | hello swami | 18:36 |
| SridarK_ | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+bug/1346986 | 18:36 |
| SumitNaiksatam | thankfully seems like nothing critical/high has showed up | 18:36 |
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| SridarK_ | oops sorry | 18:36 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: hi, thanks for joining | 18:37 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: yes nothing new | 18:37 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: we will get to your email on E-W in just a bit | 18:37 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: ok cool | 18:37 |
| SumitNaiksatam | we are still delinquent on: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/104132/ | 18:37 |
| SumitNaiksatam | lets review this at the earliest | 18:37 |
| Swami | SumitNaiksatam: no worries | 18:38 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: yes the client one will do that | 18:38 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: thanks | 18:38 |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: anything else on your radar on the bugs front? | 18:39 |
| badveli | Nothing as i could see | 18:39 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: okay, and you are still tracking the discussion around: https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1386543 and https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1335375, right? | 18:40 |
| badveli | yes | 18:40 |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: okay | 18:40 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Docs | 18:40 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Docs (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)" | 18:40 | |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: go ahead | 18:40 |
| SridarK_ | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+bug/1346986 | 18:41 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i noticed your post, thanks! | 18:41 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | just in the nick of time ;-P | 18:41 |
| SridarK_ | i think there is one section there - can one post a review for just our section ? | 18:41 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: :-) life seems to be "nick of time" all the time :-) | 18:42 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: :-) | 18:42 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: i think that should be good, perhaps we can send an email to ann gentle to check with her as to what is the process? | 18:42 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: ok will do | 18:42 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: great, thanks | 18:42 |
| SridarK_ | the other one: | 18:43 |
| SridarK_ | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+bug/1373674 | 18:43 |
| SridarK_ | is fixed but someone already | 18:43 |
| SumitNaiksatam | sweet! | 18:43 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | documentation seems to be okay on that | 18:44 |
| SumitNaiksatam | it would be good for us to be in the loop on these things | 18:44 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: yes it was a quick clarification | 18:44 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: yes - it seems the only way is to poll for these | 18:44 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: yeah :-( | 18:45 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: so on the DVR related documentation, your suggestion is that we wait and watch? | 18:45 |
| Swami | hi | 18:46 |
| Swami | Yes, we will wait till they have the networking guide and we can provide the feedback there to add the services that are supported and how it is supported. | 18:46 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: ok cool | 18:46 |
| Swami | I am working with Edgar, Matt Kassawara and Elke Vorghies | 18:47 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: is there any meeting that we should be attending? | 18:47 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: i recall references during the last neutron meeting | 18:47 |
| Swami | There is a meeting on Friday's from 9.00a.m to 10.a.m. | 18:47 |
| Swami | At this time, I will take care, and if needed I will let you know. | 18:47 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: woudl appreciate if you get SridarK_ and me plugged into that meeting | 18:47 |
| Swami | Ok, it is a google hangout meeting | 18:48 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: okay thanks | 18:48 |
| Swami | I will send you the link. | 18:48 |
| SridarK_ | Swami: thanks | 18:48 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: great! but hangout is wierd for this kind of a thing! | 18:48 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: thanks Swami for that input | 18:48 |
| SumitNaiksatam | anything else on docs? | 18:49 |
| Swami | that's what they do right now | 18:49 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: okay | 18:49 |
| SumitNaiksatam | moving on | 18:49 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic FWaaS team mission and charter | 18:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "FWaaS team mission and charter (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)" | 18:50 | |
| SumitNaiksatam | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/NeutronSubteamCharters#FWaaS_Team | 18:51 |
| SumitNaiksatam | we discussed this over emails | 18:51 |
| SumitNaiksatam | bringing it up here in case anyone missed it | 18:51 |
| SumitNaiksatam | currently this does not mention the DVR E-W | 18:51 |
| Swami | I have mentioned in the DVR charter. | 18:52 |
| SumitNaiksatam | we also need to append to the specs list once we post those | 18:52 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: great, nice to have cross team reinforcement | 18:52 |
| SumitNaiksatam | anything more to discuss here? | 18:53 |
| SumitNaiksatam | we will touch on the topic of services’ split in a bit | 18:53 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ok next topic | 18:53 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Kilo blueprints | 18:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Kilo blueprints (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)" | 18:53 | |
| SumitNaiksatam | related to our charter | 18:54 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Service groups and objects: #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/131596 | 18:54 |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: thanks for the updates | 18:54 |
| badveli | thanks sumit | 18:54 |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: sorry i havent had a chance to get back to it | 18:54 |
| SumitNaiksatam | is glebo here? | 18:54 |
| badveli | no problem, thanks | 18:54 |
| badveli | looks like not here | 18:55 |
| badveli | thanks giving | 18:55 |
| badveli | week | 18:55 |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: i understand, i did expect a light attendance today | 18:55 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | i wanted to check if he got any response to the emails he had sent to mestery or markmcclain regarding the service groups | 18:56 |
| badveli | do we need any inputs from him? | 18:56 |
| SridarK_ | badveli: i will go thru once more and put a +1 | 18:56 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i did not see a response, but just checking | 18:56 |
| badveli | thanks sridark, on that front, did not receive anything | 18:56 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: thanks, i need to read through again as well | 18:56 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: any update on the router/port based insertion? | 18:57 |
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| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: will put this together real soon | 18:57 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: okay thanks | 18:58 |
| SridarK_ | on router_id - we keep this optional | 18:58 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: did we get any response from arvind, brian or glebo on the use cases? | 18:58 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: no | 18:58 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: let me send a reminder | 18:59 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: okay | 18:59 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: based on what we have in our various discussions - i think ports seems more palatable | 18:59 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: okay, what does the rest of the team think about this? | 19:00 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: the other thing is that this will probab need to go as an attribute of the firewall extension | 19:00 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: okay | 19:00 |
| badveli | sridark, does it seem odd to ask the user to give the port | 19:00 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: given that extensions are being clamped down | 19:00 |
| badveli | may be we are asking more from user | 19:00 |
| SridarK_ | badveli: the thought was that the port is a representation of the subnet "behind" it | 19:01 |
| SridarK_ | badveli: and we are add a fw for that subnet | 19:01 |
| SridarK_ | badveli: did u have something else in mind ? | 19:01 |
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| badveli | currently i do not have much, i need to think more | 19:02 |
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| SridarK_ | badveli: ok - do send an email | 19:03 |
| badveli | i am not sure if the customers really would like anything like this | 19:03 |
| SridarK_ | badveli: we need to go away from the all routers all ports model | 19:03 |
| badveli | thanks sridark, will let you know | 19:03 |
| badveli | yes that would be ideal | 19:04 |
| SridarK_ | badveli: based on the feedback from the summit | 19:04 |
| badveli | sridark, my only thaught was when this happens would be a undo the one that we had done | 19:04 |
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| SridarK_ | badveli: if we want to fw a particular subnet for ex engineering | 19:04 |
| badveli | from the configuration | 19:05 |
| SridarK_ | badveli: router port provides a good abstraction | 19:05 |
| badveli | 19:05 | |
| SridarK_ | badveli: sorry don't understand | 19:06 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: we had discussed one option of having router_id and router_ports, both as optional attributes | 19:06 |
| badveli | sridark ideally we do not want to tie up to ports / routers | 19:06 |
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| badveli | sumit, so this will be optional parameters | 19:07 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: yes by specifying the router-id and the ports associated | 19:07 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: perhaps a subset or all | 19:07 |
| SumitNaiksatam | badveli: its an option to have these as optional parameters :-) | 19:08 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: okay | 19:08 |
| SumitNaiksatam | okay so lets wait for SridarK_’s spec | 19:08 |
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| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: :-) yes all are optional | 19:08 |
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| badveli | good one | 19:08 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: but what is ur thought on attribute to firewall extension | 19:09 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: i guess that would be okay ? | 19:09 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: you mean an extension to the firewall resource, or add an attribute to the current firewall resource? | 19:10 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: attribute to the firewall resource | 19:10 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: perhaps that might be the more palatable option | 19:10 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: the extension to firewall resource may have some acceptance issues | 19:10 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: the attribute extension mechanism is more flexible in that it does not pollute the base model, but it has its downside | 19:11 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: yeah | 19:11 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: perhaps we can put that as an Alternative | 19:11 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: perfect | 19:11 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i would also like to hear the opinion of the rest of the team on this | 19:12 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: ok thx | 19:12 |
| SumitNaiksatam | so i think looking at the spec people can provide an informed opinion | 19:12 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ok moving on | 19:12 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | we should also be discussing pcm’s patch of the L3 agent refactor | 19:12 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/135392/ | 19:13 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | i believe pcm is on vacation, we can probably have this discussion in this meeting if he is around in the next week | 19:13 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: yes pcm is out | 19:14 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: ok thanks | 19:14 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic FWaaS for E-W traffic scenario with DVR | 19:14 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "FWaaS for E-W traffic scenario with DVR (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)" | 19:14 | |
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| SumitNaiksatam | Swami just sent some detailed ideas, which i have shared with the rest of the team | 19:15 |
| Swami | #link https://docs.google.com/document/d/11Gp62Yfyi1WH6yM6E_308OB4CC9A6xhxKZJ8B5jOwLc/edit | 19:15 |
| SumitNaiksatam | perhaps we can take a quick min to peruse the diagrams | 19:15 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: thanks! | 19:15 |
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| Swami | Just to give a brief summary of the two options that we discussed in Paris. | 19:16 |
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| badveli | thanks swami, will take a look | 19:16 |
| Swami | Option 1: is to have a bump in the wire scenario. To add a bridge in between the br-int and br-tun and track all the traffic incoming and outgoing. Apply the rules there. | 19:16 |
| Swami | Option 2: Instead of applying firewall rules in multiple places for East-West and north south, let us apply it in the "qr" namespace. | 19:17 |
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| Swami | But when the return traffic hits the br-int, if possible we can force the traffic to get into the router, like a loopback interface and apply the rules there. I am not sure if it is viable and has any issues. But it has to be investigated from the flow rules and from the routers perspective. | 19:18 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: does applying in the “qr” namespace introduce a single choke point? | 19:18 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: btw, thanks for the summary (was about to ask)! | 19:19 |
| Swami | It will not be a single choke point, because you are also applying all the compute nodes. But it will be single choke point for that particular host. | 19:19 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: So the point is that the “qr” namespace itself is distributed since it manifests on all the hosts? | 19:20 |
| Swami | Yes. | 19:20 |
| badveli | swami: adding a bridge | 19:21 |
| Swami | badveli: yes | 19:21 |
| badveli | add forcing the traffic towards it | 19:21 |
| SridarK_ | Swami: we will do the "return traffic thru qr" if we have fw configured ? | 19:21 |
| badveli | how do we do that? | 19:22 |
| badveli | 19:22 | |
| Swami | adding a bridge will be similar to the security groups where you apply all the rules in a bridge and then attach it with the veth pairs. | 19:22 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: in that case, i believe the advantage with the second method is that from a fwaas perspective we only have to deal with the “qr” namespace, always (regardless of E-W or N-S traffic)? | 19:22 |
| badveli | thanks swami | 19:22 |
| Swami | SridarK_: Yes, if firewall is configured for the tenant we force the traffic to send it back to the "qr" and so all your rules will be applied in a single place. | 19:22 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: okay i think you answered my question as well with that response | 19:23 |
| SridarK_ | Swami: ok that way we will take a sub-optimal path only then | 19:23 |
| SridarK_ | Swami: defn looks like a viable option but need to think some more | 19:24 |
| SumitNaiksatam | good discussion | 19:24 |
| Swami | Yes we don't need to decide today. But give it a thought. | 19:24 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: thanks for the timely interjection with this proposal :-) | 19:24 |
| Swami | I have also asked "Vivek" to check on the flow rules and any impact for option 2. | 19:24 |
| Swami | Whichever option is viable and riskless we can go on that direction. | 19:25 |
| SumitNaiksatam | lets circle back on the email thread, and have a more definitive discussion in the next meeting | 19:25 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: thanks | 19:25 |
| SumitNaiksatam | 5 mins left | 19:25 |
| Swami | Sorry I was supposed to send you out this picture after the paris trip, but I was on Jet lag for a week. | 19:25 |
| badveli | yes, thanks sumit | 19:25 |
| SumitNaiksatam | Swami: np | 19:25 |
| SridarK_ | Swami: thanks | 19:25 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Vendor drivers | 19:25 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Vendor drivers (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)" | 19:25 | |
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| SumitNaiksatam | vishwana_: you posted your spec, right? | 19:25 |
| SumitNaiksatam | link? | 19:26 |
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| vishwana_ | yes, I did, thanks to you and SridarK for initial review and comments | 19:26 |
| SumitNaiksatam | vishwana_: np, just procedural nits | 19:26 |
| vishwana_ | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/136953/ | 19:27 |
| vishwana_ | I am yet to address your review comments | 19:27 |
| SumitNaiksatam | vishwana_: thanks for the link | 19:27 |
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| vishwana_ | What is the Ipv6 impact requirement? | 19:27 |
| SumitNaiksatam | any other vendor related bps posted or in the pipeline? | 19:27 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/129836/ | 19:27 |
| SumitNaiksatam | vishwana_: i am not completely sure on this | 19:27 |
| SumitNaiksatam | vishwana_: however there was a thread in the -dev ML on this | 19:28 |
| SumitNaiksatam | vishwana_: perhaps you can post your question there | 19:28 |
| vishwana_ | Any guidance on how to approach that would be valuable | 19:28 |
| vishwana_ | SumitNaiksatam: Thanks | 19:28 |
| SumitNaiksatam | vishwana_: i believe in your case there should not be any IPv6 impact since this is vendor specific | 19:28 |
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| vishwana_ | I see | 19:28 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: thanks, did not notice that one | 19:28 |
| SumitNaiksatam | vishwana_: again, my comment was more procedural ;-) | 19:29 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: no worries - it has extension written all over it :-) | 19:29 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: :-) | 19:29 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Open Discussion | 19:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: Networking FWaaS)" | 19:29 | |
| vishwana_ | SumitNaiksatam :understaood | 19:29 |
| SumitNaiksatam | we have one minute | 19:29 |
| SumitNaiksatam | one quick one - #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/136835/ | 19:29 |
| SumitNaiksatam | services’ split ^^^ | 19:29 |
| SumitNaiksatam | this is shaping up in a different way from what we discussed in the paris summit | 19:30 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: +1 :-( | 19:30 |
| SumitNaiksatam | at any rate i have volunteered to help out on the fwaas side of things | 19:30 |
| SridarK_ | SumitNaiksatam: i can also help | 19:30 |
| SumitNaiksatam | others should read this spec carefully and express their opinion as well | 19:30 |
| SumitNaiksatam | SridarK_: great | 19:30 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ok, lets call it a wrap | 19:30 |
| SumitNaiksatam | happy thanksgiving to all! | 19:30 |
| SridarK_ | Ok bye all | 19:30 |
| Swami | will take a look at it. | 19:31 |
| SumitNaiksatam | bye | 19:31 |
| vishwana_ | bye | 19:31 |
| badveli | bye all | 19:31 |
| SridarK_ | Happy Thanks giving | 19:31 |
| Swami | bye, happy thanksgiving | 19:31 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #endmeeting | 19:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:31 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Nov 26 19:31:17 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:31 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_fwaas/2014/networking_fwaas.2014-11-26-18.33.html | 19:31 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_fwaas/2014/networking_fwaas.2014-11-26-18.33.txt | 19:31 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_fwaas/2014/networking_fwaas.2014-11-26-18.33.log.html | 19:31 |
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| alaski | Anyone around for the cells meeting? | 22:00 |
| tonyb | alaski: yup | 22:00 |
| belmoreira | yes | 22:00 |
| vineetmenon_ | alaski: yeah | 22:00 |
| leifz | alaski: I'm around... but more lurking than anything else | 22:00 |
| dansmith | I am, but only barely | 22:01 |
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| alaski | dansmith: same here :) | 22:01 |
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| alaski | #startmeeting nova_cells | 22:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Nov 26 22:01:24 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is alaski. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 22:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 22:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: nova_cells)" | 22:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'nova_cells' | 22:01 |
| alaski | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/NovaCellsv2#Next_Meeting | 22:01 |
| leifz | :-) | 22:01 |
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| alaski | I've carried over the agenda from last week, but we can just touch on everything quickly | 22:01 |
| alaski | #topic manifesto | 22:02 |
| vineetmenon_ | #help | 22:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "manifesto (Meeting topic: nova_cells)" | 22:02 | |
| alaski | I know dansmith has been working on the manifesto, but it isn't up for general feedback yet | 22:02 |
| dansmith | I'm cool with dropping it here if you are | 22:02 |
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| alaski | dansmith: sure | 22:03 |
| dansmith | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-nova-cells-manifesto | 22:03 |
| dansmith | if people have general feedback, please add it to a section at the bottom or something | 22:03 |
| alaski | I know leifz is also interested in this and has sent some ideas to me which might be worth incorporating | 22:03 |
| dansmith | cool | 22:04 |
| alaski | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/kilo-nova-cells-manifesto | 22:04 |
| bauzas | \o | 22:04 |
| leifz | dansmith: I can share directly, I just wanted to sanity check before... it's more big picture stuff.. I'll find a spot to add probably Friday. | 22:04 |
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| dansmith | cool | 22:05 |
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| leifz | good stuff by the way dansmith :-) | 22:05 |
| dansmith | I will say, for those that are looking at it, | 22:05 |
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| dansmith | we specifically didn't put in the solutions to all the problems we have, or even document all the problems | 22:05 |
| dansmith | we know there are lots of challenges to solve, but this was supposed to just be documentation of the idea/goal | 22:06 |
| alaski | right, I actually pushed back against that a little | 22:06 |
| dansmith | we can create another page for grievances or something and for solution brainstorming | 22:06 |
| leifz | It's less solutions and why people should care IMHO | 22:06 |
| alaski | I didn't want this to need editing after we had implemented a couple of specs | 22:06 |
| bauzas | dansmith: which kind of deliverable do you expect ? | 22:06 |
| vineetmenon_ | dansmith: but should be sort out almost all technical queries before going ahead? | 22:06 |
| alaski | vineetmenon_: those should be sorted out in specs I think | 22:06 |
| dansmith | yar | 22:07 |
| dansmith | bauzas: not sure what you mean | 22:07 |
| vineetmenon_ | alaski: fair enough | 22:07 |
| melwitt | agree that specs are for problem/solution details | 22:07 |
| bauzas | dansmith: I mean, how long can I review this manifesto ? | 22:07 |
| dansmith | bauzas: as long as you want? :) | 22:08 |
| dansmith | bauzas: as soon as alaski stops this meeting, I'm going away for four days, so .. :) | 22:08 |
| bauzas | dansmith: ok, so how the other people will know about the manifesto ? :) | 22:08 |
| alaski | dansmith: so I can keep you from that indefinitely? :) | 22:08 |
| alaski | bauzas: it will eventually get proposed to devref in Nova | 22:08 |
| bauzas | alaski: ack | 22:09 |
| belmoreira | dansmith: I'm reading it... very good stuff | 22:09 |
| dansmith | anyway, | 22:09 |
| dansmith | let's not read it together live, | 22:09 |
| dansmith | we can chat again next week | 22:09 |
| bauzas | agreed | 22:09 |
| dansmith | alaski: no, that's lower bound :) | 22:09 |
| alaski | :) | 22:09 |
| alaski | we'll come back to this next week | 22:09 |
| vineetmenon_ | #agreed | 22:09 |
| belmoreira | operators should be actively informed as well | 22:09 |
| alaski | #action anyone interested please read and comment on the manifesto | 22:10 |
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| alaski | belmoreira: good point. We can circulate this on the operators list for feedback as well | 22:10 |
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| alaski | but I'd like for that to happen once we've done a first pass on it | 22:11 |
| dansmith | yeah | 22:11 |
| vineetmenon_ | alaski: circulate it next week, then in the mailing list | 22:11 |
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| bauzas | eh, EU people don't have Thanksgiving, so you can go on vacation while we review the manifesto ;) | 22:12 |
| belmoreira | bauzas: :) | 22:12 |
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| dansmith | yeah, you poor folks :( | 22:12 |
| dansmith | although a whole holiday dedicated to eating is very american :) | 22:13 |
| alaski | vineetmenon_: let's see how it looks when we check back next week | 22:13 |
| bauzas | :) | 22:13 |
| alaski | #topic specs | 22:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "specs (Meeting topic: nova_cells)" | 22:13 | |
| alaski | unfortunately there's not a great link to provide here, though I can link them all separately | 22:14 |
| bauzas | +1 | 22:14 |
| alaski | but there are 3 specs now I think | 22:14 |
| bauzas | is there a Gerrit topic ? | 22:14 |
| alaski | https://review.openstack.org/135424 https://review.openstack.org/135644 https://review.openstack.org/136490 | 22:14 |
| alaski | bauzas: there isn't since they're associated with different bps | 22:14 |
| vineetmenon_ | alaski: yeah.. 1 about migration, 2 about cells. All of then from you | 22:15 |
| bauzas | alaski: oh right | 22:15 |
| vineetmenon_ | %s/then/them | 22:15 |
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| alaski | the topic of handling deleted rows has come up and started a ML discussion | 22:15 |
| bauzas | at least all of them are having dependencies, so that's easy provided you have the new Gerrit UI | 22:15 |
| alaski | bauzas: yeah, that's helpful | 22:16 |
| bauzas | alaski: sounds like you have consensus on the soft delete ? | 22:16 |
| alaski | bauzas: I think there's consensus on not doing soft delete like we currently do it | 22:16 |
| bauzas | alaski: well, not exactly consensus, but strong majority | 22:16 |
| alaski | but no clear plan forward | 22:16 |
| vineetmenon_ | alaski: and it has gather quite a bit of momentum, the email discussion | 22:16 |
| alaski | I don't want to block on that so I may try to defer that to a later spec | 22:17 |
| bauzas | alaski: +1 | 22:17 |
| belmoreira | alaski: +1 | 22:18 |
| alaski | but please review the specs, and if you see gaps please bring it up in a meeting or propose something to cover it | 22:18 |
| bauzas | alaski: I left a comment btw. on the URIs | 22:18 |
| alaski | I think there's at least one more spec needed for populating data in the cells mapping | 22:19 |
| bauzas | alaski: maybe this meeting is not the good time for discussing it | 22:19 |
| alaski | bauzas: well, you're keeping dan from vacation... :) | 22:19 |
| bauzas | alaski: agreed, and I'm keeping myself away from bed | 22:19 |
| belmoreira | alaski: we still don't have a clear picture how top and child dbs will look like | 22:20 |
| vineetmenon_ | "populating data in the cells mapping" specs requires new schema, right | 22:20 |
| belmoreira | alaski: having that will be important for the "delete" discussion as well | 22:20 |
| dansmith | belmoreira: why? | 22:20 |
| alaski | vineetmenon_: there's a schema proposed, but nothing proposed on how to get data into it | 22:21 |
| belmoreira | dansmith: I'm interested to know where instance information should live. top or child? | 22:21 |
| dansmith | belmoreira: definitely in the children, that's the whole point | 22:21 |
| bauzas | +1 | 22:21 |
| dansmith | see line 14 of the manifesto :) | 22:21 |
| vineetmenon_ | dansmith: does that mean top level will not have anything except the instance information as detailed in the spec? | 22:22 |
| belmoreira | dansmith: But if delete goes to top, how you remove old data from child? | 22:22 |
| alaski | belmoreira: I responded to your email on that. I think we want to make sure that deleting at the api level doesn't mean the same as deleting in the cell | 22:22 |
| dansmith | vineetmenon_: no, the top level will have the mapping, and also things like flavors, keypairs, and other bits of information that are common to the whole deployment | 22:22 |
| bauzas | belmoreira: I think deletes are different if you consider a cell or an instance | 22:22 |
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| alaski | belmoreira: a delete would delete in the child, and doesn't need to touch the mapping. that can be deleted independently | 22:22 |
| dansmith | belmoreira: I dunno what you mean about "old data", but any change (delete, update) that goes to the top will modify the thing in the child database, because that's the only place it lives | 22:23 |
| dansmith | unlike current cells, we don't need to delete it in both places and/or sync that it has been deleted | 22:23 |
| belmoreira | dansmith: maybe is that what I'm missing... understand how to delete in map table and child DB without sync | 22:24 |
| alaski | there's a big change here, which is that the mapping is almost wholly independent of the instance | 22:24 |
| alaski | so they don't need to be synced | 22:24 |
| leifz | We do talk about cache'ing the information at global level, but that is standard cleaning for a cache'ing implementation. | 22:24 |
| belmoreira | alaski: ok | 22:25 |
| bauzas | belmoreira: persistence is local to the object | 22:25 |
| leifz | child cell dbs are the authority for instance information. | 22:25 |
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| alaski | leifz: right | 22:26 |
| vineetmenon_ | ..and the command to alter the database is direct not via message queue | 22:26 |
| tonyb | So a query for a dleted instance would match in the top DB, lookup the mapping a query the child woudl say "doesnt exist" right? | 22:26 |
| alaski | belmoreira: does that make sense about deletes? | 22:26 |
| vineetmenon_ | i mean n-api to child db | 22:26 |
| belmoreira | alaski: yes, thanks | 22:26 |
| tonyb | would the top table do anything other than pass that back to the caller? | 22:26 |
| dansmith | vineetmenon: correct | 22:26 |
| dansmith | tonyb: the top table is just a mapping of what is where, you still have to talk to the database that has the thing you're looking for, once you determine where it is | 22:27 |
| tonyb | dansmith: right. I get that part. | 22:27 |
| tonyb | oh wait the top DB tells the client "it's over there" | 22:27 |
| dansmith | no | 22:28 |
| tonyb | and the client talks the the child DB? | 22:28 |
| dansmith | bi | 22:28 |
| vineetmenon_ | alaski: all other service will use the usual message queue, except n-api-cell, which will directly get hold of DB... is this right | 22:28 |
| dansmith | no, it tells the api where to find it, on behalf of the client | 22:28 |
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| dansmith | tonyb: right now, it's implied that the instance is in "the" database, because there is only one (as far as the api is concerned) | 22:28 |
| tonyb | dansmith: okay that's wahtr I thought at first. | 22:28 |
| tonyb | dansmith: okay. that's also as I thought. | 22:28 |
| alaski | vineetmenon_: anything that uses a queue now will continue to use a queue | 22:28 |
| dansmith | this would add a switch in front of that to not just imply the database location | 22:29 |
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| bauzas | I think we all need to read the manifesto carefully :) | 22:29 |
| dansmith | yes :) | 22:29 |
| tonyb | I guess I'll read the specs and if they'er not at all clear poke at that level | 22:29 |
| tonyb | rather than keep eveyone here | 22:29 |
| vineetmenon_ | bauzas: haha.. yes | 22:29 |
| alaski | I think a diagram might help too | 22:29 |
| dansmith | alaski: yeah, good point, I suck at drawing, so I volunteer you :) | 22:29 |
| alaski | dansmith: heh. I'm fine with that | 22:30 |
| alaski | #action alaski to diagram cellsv2 flow and approximate table split | 22:30 |
| alaski | which leads to... | 22:30 |
| alaski | #topic analysis of tables | 22:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "analysis of tables (Meeting topic: nova_cells)" | 22:30 | |
| alaski | I don't believe there's anything to report here | 22:30 |
| dansmith | no, because I suck | 22:31 |
| dansmith | and because flavors have been kicking my ass all week | 22:31 |
| alaski | well, because flavors suck | 22:31 |
| bauzas | s/flavors/data migration, eh ? | 22:31 |
| vineetmenon_ | alaski: on that note, i have generated an ER diagram for nova db.. I can share it on ML if anyone needs... | 22:31 |
| dansmith | bauzas: no, just flavors | 22:32 |
| melwitt | flavors... | 22:32 |
| dansmith | bauzas: the migration is easy | 22:32 |
| bauzas | dansmith: speak for you :) | 22:32 |
| dansmith | flavors, I want to set on fire | 22:32 |
| alaski | I think getting this sorted out will help a lot with understanding of where this is headed | 22:32 |
| alaski | at least getting some things sorted out | 22:32 |
| bauzas | agreed | 22:32 |
| alaski | so maybe we just start with some easy ones and get something in place | 22:32 |
| vineetmenon_ | alaski: the patches by gary are all merged... shouldn't that solve flavor? | 22:32 |
| bauzas | YAE ? yet another etherpad ? | 22:32 |
| belmoreira | flavors is not the worst in my opinion... | 22:33 |
| alaski | vineetmenon_: yeah, share that on the ML | 22:33 |
| belmoreira | how about aggregates? | 22:33 |
| alaski | vineetmenon_: it solves some of it, although there are two more by him that need merging | 22:33 |
| alaski | bauzas: yeah, probably another etherpad | 22:33 |
| bauzas | belmoreira: I don't think that aggregates are considered as an easy one :) | 22:33 |
| bauzas | belmoreira: I'm personnally convinced that aggregates are local to cells | 22:34 |
| alaski | I'm going to take an action to get something together with just easy ones. like mapping tables in the api and flavors, and instances in the cells | 22:34 |
| bauzas | belmoreira: but some other people can argue on this | 22:34 |
| alaski | #action alaski start an etherpad on easy table splits | 22:35 |
| bauzas | belmoreira: cells are a certain level of segregation, aggregates are another level of segregation IMHO | 22:35 |
| alaski | that will pair nicely with the diagram I need to do | 22:35 |
| belmoreira | bauzas: I think we will need a meeting only for that. But I agree with you | 22:35 |
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| vineetmenon_ | bauzas, alaski, belmoeira: let's start with easy ones.. and subsequently resolve others... | 22:35 |
| bauzas | belmoreira: well, the problem is that contextual information (aka. metadata) is attached to a placement thing, and here comes our problems... | 22:35 |
| alaski | yeah, we can devote a much larger meeting time to that discussion | 22:36 |
| bauzas | vineetmenon_: ack, I was diverting | 22:36 |
| alaski | after we get some easier ones nailed down | 22:36 |
| alaski | #topic testing | 22:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "testing (Meeting topic: nova_cells)" | 22:37 | |
| alaski | There's this now https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/nova-cells-testing | 22:37 |
| alaski | which needs some real work from me | 22:37 |
| alaski | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/135285/ gets cells failures down from ~150 to ~95 | 22:37 |
| alaski | which is a possible short term solution which can be superceded by dansmiths flavor work | 22:38 |
| alaski | I have a tempest fix up for some service test failures | 22:38 |
| alaski | and I've determined that fixed-ip tests should be excluded | 22:38 |
| alaski | I've been looking at floating-ip tests to see what's up there but havne't made much progress yet | 22:39 |
| bauzas | ouch, are you planning to fix functional test coverage for Cells V1 ? | 22:39 |
| bauzas | I missed the rationale of that work :) | 22:39 |
| alaski | http://logs.openstack.org/85/135285/5/experimental/check-tempest-dsvm-cells/8b23f8d shows some other tests that need work though | 22:39 |
| vineetmenon_ | bauzas: to check what all things work under current inplementation | 22:40 |
| alaski | bauzas: fix, or exclude tests that we don't expect to work | 22:40 |
| dansmith | right, we need to make sure cellsv1 doesn't rot | 22:40 |
| bauzas | alaski: oh, for regression checking ? | 22:40 |
| alaski | exactly | 22:40 |
| bauzas | alaski: got it | 22:40 |
| alaski | there's been some progress, but there are still some test classes I'm not sure of yet | 22:41 |
| alaski | I'd like to get that laid out on the etherpad so others can help look if they're inclined | 22:42 |
| vineetmenon_ | alaski: I can do my bit, if guided... | 22:42 |
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| alaski | #action alaski record in progress test work, and remaining failing tests in etherpad | 22:42 |
| alaski | vineetmenon_: awesome. I'll ping you once I get the etherpad in better shape | 22:43 |
| vineetmenon_ | I'm a newbie, so... | 22:43 |
| * tonyb is also very happy to help with whatever can be delegated | 22:43 | |
| vineetmenon_ | alaski: sure | 22:43 |
| alaski | tonyb: noted, thanks | 22:43 |
| dansmith | ooh, nice | 22:43 |
| dansmith | tonyb: be careful what you volunteer for :) | 22:43 |
| leifz | I'd offer, but alaski already delegates enough to me :-) | 22:44 |
| * bauzas should do call for volunteers in other meetings... | 22:44 | |
| tonyb | dansmith: I'm green but feel free to pass work my way | 22:44 |
| tonyb | dansmith: Gotta learn somehow | 22:44 |
| dansmith | essellent | 22:44 |
| vineetmenon_ | dansmith: lisp | 22:44 |
| tonyb | dansmith: after your long weekend ;P | 22:44 |
| alaski | leifz: :) | 22:44 |
| melwitt | I want to help too, but new to cells. this is my first cells meeting | 22:45 |
| alaski | I had another topic on the agenda about cells scheduling requirements but there hasn't been any progress there yet | 22:45 |
| tonyb | melwitt: well it's inly the 2nd cellsv2 meeting ;P | 22:45 |
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| alaski | melwitt: cool | 22:45 |
| alaski | well have everyone as a cells expert in no time | 22:45 |
| dansmith | I think there was a plan to come up with some low-hanging fruit on the cellsv1 test effort | 22:46 |
| alaski | we'll | 22:46 |
| tonyb | (and the first at a "reasonable" time) | 22:46 |
| melwitt | :) | 22:46 |
| alaski | dansmith: yes. I haven't quite gotten there yet, but I'm going to get it into that etherpad | 22:46 |
| alaski | https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/nova-cells-testing | 22:46 |
| vineetmenon_ | tonyb: Americans can say that. :) | 22:46 |
| tonyb | vineetmenon_: Meh I'm in Australia | 22:47 |
| leifz | alaski: put an action for me to help find the categories... since i already did this run through once I should help. | 22:47 |
| alaski | #action leifz help categorize test failures | 22:48 |
| leifz | all in the U.S. have a good holiday.. all everywhere else have a good rest of the week, I'm out. | 22:48 |
| alaski | also, tonyb answered my question from last week about this later meeting time | 22:48 |
| alaski | leifz: ok. happy holiday | 22:48 |
| alaski | #topic open discussion | 22:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: nova_cells)" | 22:48 | |
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| alaski | this meeting time has drawn a few different folks than last week, so it may be worth having | 22:49 |
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| tonyb | alaski: please keep it if you can. | 22:50 |
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| tonyb | alaski: I'm keen to help and wont be at the alternate time | 22:50 |
| bauzas | I don't know if belmoreira can regularly attend this meeting, I took this one opportunisticly | 22:50 |
| alaski | tonyb: okay. good to know. I will keep running it if it's useful | 22:51 |
| belmoreira | bauzas: I will try | 22:51 |
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| alaski | anything else people would like to discuss here? | 22:52 |
| tonyb | alaski: you could move it an hour or two earlier if that helps (but only during the US winter) | 22:52 |
| alaski | tonyb: It might help the US east coast, but I don't think that helps Europe that much | 22:52 |
| bauzas | alaski: not really :) | 22:53 |
| bauzas | I mean, there was no good TV shows tonight... :) | 22:53 |
| alaski | heh | 22:53 |
| belmoreira | bauzas: :) | 22:53 |
| bauzas | then, I assume we're done ? :) | 22:54 |
| alaski | seems like it | 22:54 |
| alaski | #endmeeting | 22:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 22:54 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Nov 26 22:54:22 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 22:54 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_cells/2014/nova_cells.2014-11-26-22.01.html | 22:54 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_cells/2014/nova_cells.2014-11-26-22.01.txt | 22:54 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/nova_cells/2014/nova_cells.2014-11-26-22.01.log.html | 22:54 |
| bauzas | thanks all | 22:54 |
| alaski | dansmith: get out of here :) | 22:54 |
| bauzas | bye | 22:54 |
| alaski | thanks | 22:54 |
| tonyb | Thanks all | 22:54 |
| dansmith | wiit! | 22:54 |
| bauzas | enjoy Black Friday | 22:54 |
| dansmith | er, woot even! | 22:54 |
| vineetmenon_ | all: bye | 22:54 |
| tonyb | enjoy thanksgiving those that have it | 22:54 |
| belmoreira | thanks all | 22:54 |
| melwitt | thanks :) | 22:55 |
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| etoews | api wg meeting to start in a minute | 23:59 |
| cyeoh | etoews: hi! | 23:59 |
| etoews | cyeoh: hello! | 23:59 |
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