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| flaper87 | #startmeeting Zaqar | 15:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Mon Dec 1 15:00:02 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is flaper87. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Zaqar)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'zaqar' | 15:00 |
| *** jpomero has joined #openstack-meeting-3 | 15:00 | |
| flaper87 | good morning world | 15:00 |
| flaper87 | #topic Roll Call | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: Zaqar)" | 15:00 | |
| flaper87 | (o/ | 15:00 |
| kragniz | \o/ | 15:00 |
| flaper87 | (o) | 15:00 |
| flaper87 | \o) | 15:00 |
| flaper87 | kragniz: you ruined my dance | 15:00 |
| kragniz | flaper87: sorry, man | 15:00 |
| kragniz | \o\ | 15:00 |
| kragniz | /o/ | 15:00 |
| flaper87 | kragniz: are you skiing ? | 15:01 |
| flaper87 | that's not dancing | 15:01 |
| flaper87 | :P | 15:01 |
| flaper87 | vkmc: ? | 15:01 |
| vkmc | o/ | 15:01 |
| flaper87 | I guess kgriffs will join in a bit | 15:01 |
| flaper87 | aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway | 15:01 |
| flaper87 | #topic Agenda | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Agenda (Meeting topic: Zaqar)" | 15:01 | |
| flaper87 | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Zaqar#Agenda | 15:01 |
| flaper87 | that's what we have for today | 15:02 |
| flaper87 | We still have 2 more specs to review and we're dong with that for a bit | 15:02 |
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| flaper87 | #topic Deprecate sqlalchemy for the data plane | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Deprecate sqlalchemy for the data plane (Meeting topic: Zaqar)" | 15:02 | |
| flaper87 | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/134248/ | 15:02 |
| flaper87 | Any initial comments on that? | 15:02 |
| flaper87 | The TL;DR is that we were planning to get rid of sqlalchemy | 15:03 |
| flaper87 | at least on the data plane | 15:03 |
| flaper87 | That means you would still be able to use it to store pools, flavors etc | 15:03 |
| flaper87 | but not to store messages | 15:03 |
| vkmc | how hard would be to update it and maintain it in the codebase? | 15:03 |
| flaper87 | However, after some extra consideration, we (or was it just me?) also mentioned that we should just get rid of it entirely | 15:04 |
| vkmc | community has shown interest in sql backends | 15:04 |
| flaper87 | We could keep it outside as an external driver | 15:04 |
| vkmc | that sounds good | 15:04 |
| flaper87 | In stackforge | 15:05 |
| vkmc | we know that for Zaqar's use case sql is no good | 15:05 |
| flaper87 | it'd have gates and whatnot | 15:05 |
| vkmc | well, maybe we have to look into that again and look for other sql alternatives | 15:05 |
| vkmc | I'm speaking without certainty | 15:05 |
| flaper87 | vkmc: that may be an overstatement. Depending on how it's implemented and configured, rdbms could also work very well | 15:05 |
| flaper87 | however, as of now, the implementation is not good, not optimized and it's being quite a pain to maintain | 15:06 |
| vkmc | yeah, that's why I'm saying that we might need to look into that again | 15:06 |
| vkmc | all right | 15:06 |
| vkmc | another concern | 15:06 |
| flaper87 | Shipping something that works with things like mysql but doesn't work well is not good for the project reputation | 15:06 |
| vkmc | we use sqlite for testing... a lot | 15:06 |
| flaper87 | right | 15:06 |
| vkmc | removing it would make testing heavier | 15:06 |
| flaper87 | right | 15:06 |
| vkmc | so... we need something in between maybe | 15:07 |
| flaper87 | Do we? | 15:07 |
| flaper87 | I mean, is it really that bad to ask devs to have mongodb installed ? | 15:07 |
| flaper87 | or redis | 15:07 |
| vkmc | I don't think it is | 15:07 |
| vkmc | but | 15:07 |
| flaper87 | We used to have an sqlite only driver but again, we have to maintain it | 15:07 |
| vkmc | I'm not an operator | 15:08 |
| vkmc | we should ask this on the list and try to get feedback | 15:08 |
| vkmc | if you didn't do that already :) | 15:08 |
| flaper87 | wait, this is devs we're talking about | 15:08 |
| flaper87 | I really hope there's noone deploying Zaqar + sqla | 15:08 |
| vkmc | yeah me too | 15:09 |
| vkmc | well... in the case of devs... | 15:09 |
| flaper87 | we gave it a full cycle for deprecation | 15:09 |
| flaper87 | now it's time to remove it | 15:09 |
| vkmc | I dunno... if you are deploying a cloud I could assume you won't have trouble deploying mongo | 15:09 |
| vkmc | right...? | 15:10 |
| flaper87 | As far as tests go, I'm just concerned about devs installing mongodb somewhere | 15:10 |
| flaper87 | to test this whole thing | 15:10 |
| flaper87 | to be fair | 15:11 |
| flaper87 | we could also just keep the sqlalchemy code, rename it to sqlite, use it as is and allow just "sqlite" url's | 15:11 |
| flaper87 | That would keep testing easy | 15:12 |
| flaper87 | we can try to maintain that code just for sqlite | 15:12 |
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| vkmc | mh.. | 15:12 |
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| flaper87 | if someone is interested in making it work well with mysql and psql then fine | 15:12 |
| vkmc | how that is different from keeping sqlalchemy? | 15:12 |
| flaper87 | we'd just keep it as-is, rename the package to sqlite (or not), forbid url's for things that are not sqlite | 15:13 |
| vkmc | I like that approach | 15:14 |
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| flaper87 | what about the renaming? | 15:14 |
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| vkmc | nobody will use sqlite for production and its default in most distros | 15:15 |
| vkmc | let's adjust sqlalchemy to be sqlite | 15:15 |
| flaper87 | renaming it would clear any doubt | 15:15 |
| flaper87 | ok | 15:15 |
| vkmc | for tests we need sqlite | 15:15 |
| flaper87 | If someone wants to copy that code, make it better, etc. Then, be my guest | 15:15 |
| vkmc | neat | 15:15 |
| vkmc | we should submit a blueprint for that | 15:16 |
| vkmc | if its not already there | 15:16 |
| flaper87 | There's a spec but I now have to update it | 15:16 |
| flaper87 | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/134248/ | 15:16 |
| vkmc | <3 | 15:16 |
| flaper87 | ok, moving on | 15:16 |
| sriram | just a thought here, have you looked at mocking frameworks? | 15:16 |
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| sriram | mongomock, fakeredis. | 15:16 |
| flaper87 | sriram: erm, nope | 15:17 |
| sriram | that could remove dependency on sqlite for tests. | 15:17 |
| flaper87 | sriram: sounds interesting | 15:17 |
| flaper87 | sriram: do you have a link ? | 15:17 |
| sriram | sure gimme one sec. | 15:17 |
| vkmc | sriram, that sounds cool | 15:17 |
| sriram | https://github.com/jamesls/fakeredis | 15:17 |
| sriram | https://github.com/vmalloc/mongomock | 15:17 |
| sriram | obviously there could be better versions out there. | 15:17 |
| sriram | these are ones I know of. | 15:18 |
| vkmc | neat! | 15:18 |
| flaper87 | awesome, I'll take a look and update the spec based on that | 15:18 |
| flaper87 | thanks, sriram | 15:18 |
| vkmc | :D thanks sriram | 15:18 |
| sriram | glad I can help :) | 15:18 |
| flaper87 | #topic Deprecate queues in favor of topics | 15:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Deprecate queues in favor of topics (Meeting topic: Zaqar)" | 15:18 | |
| flaper87 | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/134015/ | 15:18 |
| flaper87 | So, no need to decide that right now, that will likely slip to k-2 anyway | 15:19 |
| flaper87 | but please, lets take a better look at that spec and review it thoroughly | 15:19 |
| flaper87 | it's quite a change and we need to be sure about it | 15:19 |
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| flaper87 | there were interesting comments w.r.t getting messages from the topic | 15:20 |
| flaper87 | and how the URL should be formatted | 15:20 |
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| flaper87 | comments? | 15:21 |
| flaper87 | thoughts? | 15:21 |
| flaper87 | worries? | 15:21 |
| flaper87 | gummy bears? | 15:21 |
| flaper87 | hugs ? | 15:21 |
| * flaper87 is talking to himself | 15:21 | |
| * vkmc checks the spec | 15:21 | |
| vkmc | gummy bears and hugs pls | 15:21 |
| flaper87 | vkmc: awesome | 15:22 |
| flaper87 | no need to go throught right now, Lets have a more detailed discussion about it next week | 15:22 |
| vkmc | so... well, I agree that we might no need to change the url | 15:22 |
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| flaper87 | ok, moving on | 15:23 |
| vkmc | as Gordon mentioned, it doesn't mean that we are dealing with containers (queues/topics) as first-class citizens | 15:23 |
| * flaper87 stops | 15:23 | |
| vkmc | and it allows us to have a more intuitive API | 15:24 |
| flaper87 | right, but it does have a meaning for REST Apis | 15:24 |
| flaper87 | it means there's a "resource" | 15:24 |
| vkmc | oh... true that | 15:24 |
| flaper87 | the difference is that it'll be a virtual resource | 15:24 |
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| vkmc | does REST specify how virtual resources should be accessed? | 15:25 |
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| flaper87 | AFAIK, it says nothing about virtual resources | 15:25 |
| flaper87 | I just made that up | 15:25 |
| flaper87 | :P | 15:25 |
| vkmc | lol | 15:25 |
| vkmc | you should totally propose the term | 15:26 |
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| vkmc | and add some specs for it | 15:26 |
| * flaper87 for president | 15:26 | |
| vkmc | haha | 15:26 |
| vkmc | ok, let's discuss about this later if you please | 15:26 |
| vkmc | I'm really sorry that we didn't get feedback in the mailing list | 15:26 |
| flaper87 | sure thing | 15:26 |
| flaper87 | yeah | 15:27 |
| vkmc | that would make things easier | 15:27 |
| flaper87 | ok | 15:28 |
| flaper87 | moving on | 15:28 |
| flaper87 | #topic Do we need message_data in config files? | 15:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Do we need message_data in config files? (Meeting topic: Zaqar)" | 15:28 | |
| flaper87 | So, exploreshafali is working on splitting the control and the data planes | 15:28 |
| flaper87 | That means we'll have 2 new sections in our config files | 15:28 |
| flaper87 | message_plane and data_plane | 15:28 |
| flaper87 | Those sections will be used to configure the database for each plane | 15:29 |
| flaper87 | There are 2 questions: | 15:29 |
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| flaper87 | 1) Do we want to keep supporting non-pooled Zaqar deployments ? | 15:29 |
| flaper87 | 2) Assuming pools are enabled, can we just forbid using Zaqar in non-pooled mode? | 15:30 |
| flaper87 | I mean, if someone enables pools, we currently allow them to use it with and without pools | 15:31 |
| flaper87 | (AFAIR :P) | 15:31 |
| vkmc | yeah | 15:31 |
| flaper87 | Which creates the whole problem with both planes being together | 15:31 |
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| flaper87 | What if instead of splitting them, we just forbid people to use Zaqar in a non-pooled way when pools are enabled | 15:32 |
| vkmc | I think that would be a better solution | 15:32 |
| flaper87 | I think she's going to kill me | 15:32 |
| flaper87 | you tell her | 15:32 |
| flaper87 | :P | 15:32 |
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| vkmc | haha | 15:33 |
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| vkmc | we can get another thing for her | 15:33 |
| flaper87 | ok, I'll run this through Kurt as well before we make a final call | 15:33 |
| flaper87 | I'd also like to get her feedback on this | 15:33 |
| vkmc | sounds good | 15:33 |
| vkmc | IMO we shouldn't work to fix users negligence | 15:34 |
| vkmc | but constrain it | 15:34 |
| flaper87 | yeah | 15:34 |
| vkmc | splitting planes would take more work than forbbiding 0 pools in a pooled deployment | 15:34 |
| vkmc | for that, you have the non-pooled deployment | 15:34 |
| flaper87 | also, there's the whole deprecation thing | 15:34 |
| flaper87 | and more sections | 15:34 |
| vkmc | yeah | 15:34 |
| flaper87 | and config duplication | 15:34 |
| flaper87 | ok | 15:34 |
| vkmc | more trouble | 15:35 |
| vkmc | more manteinance | 15:35 |
| vkmc | more code | 15:35 |
| * vkmc -> moar! | 15:35 | |
| flaper87 | Yeah, we don't want more trouble... we already have you | 15:35 |
| vkmc | that is my mission here in Zaqar | 15:35 |
| flaper87 | trouble-maker | 15:35 |
| flaper87 | ok, that's all I had | 15:36 |
| vkmc | haha | 15:36 |
| flaper87 | I guess we can jump into open discussions or just close the discussion for today | 15:36 |
| flaper87 | :P | 15:36 |
| vkmc | sure :) | 15:36 |
| flaper87 | it's not like we won't keep talking in #os-zaqar anyway | 15:36 |
| vkmc | we also have the osprofiler spec | 15:36 |
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| vkmc | oh wait | 15:36 |
| vkmc | wait... | 15:36 |
| flaper87 | vkmc: do we? I didn't see it | 15:36 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: just joined | 15:36 |
| vkmc | kgriffs has joined | 15:36 |
| flaper87 | miracles happen | 15:36 |
| vkmc | hahahaha | 15:36 |
| kgriffs | lol, sorry had a meeting conflict | 15:37 |
| flaper87 | yeah yeah, that's what everyone says | 15:37 |
| vkmc | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/135612/ | 15:37 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: we went through some specs but we deferred the discussion 'til next week | 15:37 |
| flaper87 | we need to provide more reviews there | 15:37 |
| flaper87 | that said, we were now talking about whether we really need to split control and data plane | 15:38 |
| kgriffs | oic | 15:38 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: TL;DR: If pooling is enabled, can't we just forbid users to use zaqar in a non-pooled way? | 15:38 |
| flaper87 | ah wait | 15:38 |
| flaper87 | no yeah, that | 15:39 |
| flaper87 | :P | 15:39 |
| flaper87 | sorry, had one of those moments | 15:39 |
| kgriffs | mmm | 15:39 |
| flaper87 | that way we can still keep it under the same config section, avoid duplicating options | 15:39 |
| flaper87 | and deprecating the ones we have | 15:39 |
| flaper87 | fewer docs to write, etc | 15:40 |
| flaper87 | The "etc" is the most important bit there | 15:40 |
| kgriffs | so | 15:40 |
| flaper87 | :D | 15:40 |
| kgriffs | is this different from having "always on pools" | 15:40 |
| flaper87 | That was the other question | 15:40 |
| flaper87 | but yes, it's different | 15:40 |
| kgriffs | ok | 15:40 |
| vkmc | that other question.. I would say no | 15:40 |
| flaper87 | It'd, however, make the transition to "always pools" easier | 15:41 |
| flaper87 | (if we ever decide to do so) | 15:41 |
| kgriffs | let me see if I understand | 15:41 |
| kgriffs | I thought that when you enable pooling, you already can't do anything "non-pooled" | 15:42 |
| kgriffs | like, it is all-or-nothing | 15:42 |
| vkmc | kgriffs, you can enable pooling and don't have pools | 15:42 |
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| kgriffs | when you enable pooling, doesn't that cause the pooled driver to get loaded in between every interaction, so you have to have pools then? | 15:43 |
| kgriffs | (technically, the proxy controllers that the pool driver exposes) | 15:43 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: yes, but I think you can still create a queue and post messages | 15:43 |
| * vkmc tries it | 15:44 | |
| flaper87 | if the queue doesn't exist, I believe it just uses the default config | 15:44 |
| flaper87 | OMG, we should know this | 15:44 |
| kgriffs | before flavors, it would just shard the queues across all available pools | 15:44 |
| flaper87 | but if there were no pools it'd just use the same configs | 15:45 |
| flaper87 | AFAIR | 15:45 |
| kgriffs | you create a queue and it would hit the proxy queue controller. that would add the queue to the catalog so it is mapped to a pool | 15:45 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: I thought it would just raise an error if there were no pools to choose from | 15:45 |
| flaper87 | mmh, damn, now I'm confused | 15:45 |
| kgriffs | or perhaps that is what I would have expected, if it isn't the reality | 15:45 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: same here | 15:45 |
| kgriffs | in my mind, pools were always all-or-nothing | 15:45 |
| flaper87 | if that's the case, then why are we doing this in the first place? | 15:46 |
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| flaper87 | I mean, splitting both planes | 15:46 |
| flaper87 | I think I just lost track of the motivation behind this work | 15:46 |
| kgriffs | let me see | 15:46 |
| flaper87 | actually, the benefits | 15:46 |
| kgriffs | I think we discussed that an operator may not want to use the same data store type for control vs. data | 15:47 |
| kgriffs | or they may want to use different settings | 15:47 |
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| kgriffs | like have more strict/safe replication settings in the connection settings | 15:47 |
| kgriffs | (for control) | 15:47 |
| flaper87 | right but pools are configured through the API | 15:47 |
| flaper87 | When you create a pool, you have to specify the connection URI | 15:47 |
| kgriffs | good point | 15:48 |
| flaper87 | it wouldn't use the same store unless you tell it to do so | 15:48 |
| kgriffs | so then you should still be able to mix-and-match | 15:48 |
| flaper87 | right | 15:48 |
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| kgriffs | but really, I recall something about the original motivation | 15:48 |
| kgriffs | being more architectural - it was messy to glom the two drivers together in the same bucket | 15:49 |
| flaper87 | ok | 15:49 |
| kgriffs | also | 15:49 |
| kgriffs | it is confusing to have the same config section be used for the catalog/control when pooling is enabled, but the data store when pooling is not enabled. | 15:50 |
| kgriffs | that being said | 15:50 |
| vkmc | btw, it raises an error | 15:50 |
| flaper87 | vkmc: good | 15:50 |
| kgriffs | perhaps we are taking a hatchet to this when we really need a scalpel | 15:50 |
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| vkmc | http://paste.openstack.org/show/142676/ | 15:50 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: indeed, I started thinking about that earlier today | 15:50 |
| kgriffs | i think the root of the problem is the dual-mode | 15:51 |
| kgriffs | if you do not use pooling, yeah then having a couple config sections is necessary | 15:51 |
| kgriffs | (in order to mix-and-match) | 15:51 |
| flaper87 | so, having some nodes non-pooled and others pooled | 15:52 |
| kgriffs | if you do have pooling, a single config section (as we have today) is groovy. We may still want to move control stuff into its own module inside each driver directory, but that is just refactoring | 15:52 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: no, I mean when non-pooled | 15:52 |
| kgriffs | I may want to use different driver settings for my catalog vs. my message data | 15:52 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: why if you're in a non-pooled mode? | 15:53 |
| flaper87 | AH WAIT | 15:53 |
| flaper87 | I remember the real motivation | 15:53 |
| kgriffs | red bull? | 15:53 |
| flaper87 | we wanted to move queue's out of the data plane | 15:53 |
| kgriffs | oh, and put their info somewhere else? | 15:54 |
| flaper87 | therefore we needed a way to split both planes even in a non-pooled mode | 15:54 |
| flaper87 | yeah | 15:54 |
| kgriffs | yeah, I you are right. that was another reason | 15:54 |
| kgriffs | hmm | 15:54 |
| * flaper87 is right | 15:54 | |
| * flaper87 won't give kgriffs gummy bears | 15:54 | |
| kgriffs | (happens sometimes on accident) | 15:54 |
| kgriffs | ;) | 15:54 |
| flaper87 | :P | 15:54 |
| flaper87 | ok, we solved the mistery | 15:54 |
| vkmc | ok | 15:55 |
| vkmc | please | 15:55 |
| vkmc | write it down | 15:55 |
| kgriffs | ok, so here is the thing | 15:55 |
| vkmc | somewhere | 15:55 |
| flaper87 | It was the majordomo | 15:55 |
| flaper87 | in the living room | 15:55 |
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| flaper87 | with a knife | 15:55 |
| flaper87 | :P | 15:55 |
| kgriffs | in an ideal world we would say pools are always on | 15:55 |
| flaper87 | That dude cut both planes into 2 | 15:55 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: I kinda agree | 15:55 |
| kgriffs | then you always have that config section mean the same thing | 15:55 |
| kgriffs | and it already gives you a way to use different data stores | 15:55 |
| flaper87 | with just 1 config section | 15:56 |
| kgriffs | so if you want that, please use pools | 15:56 |
| flaper87 | :) | 15:56 |
| flaper87 | oh no wait | 15:56 |
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| flaper87 | we would still want to have 2 | 15:56 |
| flaper87 | probably | 15:56 |
| flaper87 | to have a default one | 15:56 |
| flaper87 | no idea | 15:56 |
| flaper87 | that'd be confusing | 15:56 |
| vkmc | 2' | 15:56 |
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| kgriffs | we are almost out of time, but I don't think there is another meeting after us is there? | 15:57 |
| flaper87 | vkmc: SSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH | 15:57 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: I've oslo's | 15:57 |
| flaper87 | we should discuss this further | 15:57 |
| flaper87 | in the channel, perhaps | 15:57 |
| kgriffs | yes | 15:57 |
| flaper87 | rock on | 15:57 |
| flaper87 | thanks for all those thoughts | 15:57 |
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| krotscheck | Yep. Stoyrboard is here in 3 | 15:57 |
| flaper87 | krotscheck: 2 | 15:58 |
| flaper87 | :P | 15:58 |
| flaper87 | ok, we're out! | 15:58 |
| vkmc | thanks guys o/ | 15:58 |
| flaper87 | Thank y'all | 15:58 |
| flaper87 | #endmeeting | 15:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Mon Dec 1 15:58:20 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zaqar/2014/zaqar.2014-12-01-15.00.html | 15:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zaqar/2014/zaqar.2014-12-01-15.00.txt | 15:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/zaqar/2014/zaqar.2014-12-01-15.00.log.html | 15:58 |
| krotscheck | #startmeeting StoryBoard | 16:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Mon Dec 1 16:00:25 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is krotscheck. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'storyboard' | 16:00 |
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| krotscheck | Agenda! https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/StoryBoard#Agenda | 16:00 |
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| krotscheck | #topic Actions from last week. | 16:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from last week. (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 16:01 | |
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| * krotscheck reorganized things. Roadmap and meeting agendas are updated. | 16:01 | |
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| krotscheck | I also pinged persia and rainya about their own pieces. persia stated that he’d finally start having time again this week, rainya is in singapore on a school trip and will likely be able to come back on board after. | 16:02 |
| fungi | awesome | 16:02 |
| krotscheck | fungi: I totally forgot to ping you about storyboard-dev.openstack.org last week. | 16:02 |
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| fungi | krotscheck: 's okay. i totally didn't have time. maybe later this week | 16:02 |
| * krotscheck may have been suffering a turkey coma. | 16:02 | |
| krotscheck | Alright! | 16:02 |
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| krotscheck | #action krotscheck Pester fungi about storyboard-dev.openstack.org | 16:03 |
| fungi | sounds great | 16:03 |
| krotscheck | #topic User Feedback | 16:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "User Feedback (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 16:03 | |
| ttx | o/ | 16:03 |
| krotscheck | I’ve captured a few issues raised in channel. | 16:03 |
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| krotscheck | The first is related to mbitard’s inability to log in. At all. | 16:03 |
| krotscheck | I’ve been poking at it, but haven’t been able to figure out exactly why he hasn’t been able to do so. Apparently he’s encountering a reproducible 500 error. | 16:04 |
| fungi | did you get any clearer details on that? or retries? | 16:04 |
| krotscheck | No retries, unfortunately | 16:04 |
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| krotscheck | Does anyone want to take this on and see if we can at least coordinate logs + retry? | 16:05 |
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| fungi | if it happens at a known time i can try to pare down the logs well enough to spot it, but whatever the issue it didn't mention that username | 16:05 |
| krotscheck | And capture a good output? | 16:05 |
| fungi | knowing the source ip address would also be great | 16:05 |
| * SergeyLukjanov lurking | 16:05 | |
| krotscheck | No volunteers? Hoookay. | 16:05 |
| yolanda | i can do it | 16:05 |
| krotscheck | yolanda: Thanks! | 16:06 |
| *** david-lyle_afk is now known as david-lyle | 16:06 | |
| yolanda | krotscheck, is there any story filed? | 16:06 |
| krotscheck | yolanda: Not yet, since he couldn’t log in to file a story. | 16:06 |
| yolanda | of course :) | 16:06 |
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| jeblair | krotscheck: was he in irc? | 16:06 |
| krotscheck | #action krotscheck File a story for mbitard’s login issue. | 16:06 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: He was. This was 2 weeks ago. | 16:06 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: We tried to go off of his comment timestamp, that didn’t work :/ | 16:07 |
| yolanda | krotscheck, will be useful to have logs about it, do we have that available? | 16:07 |
| * SergeyLukjanov looking on server logs | 16:07 | |
| krotscheck | yolanda: We already had fungi go look back when it happened. He wasn’t able to whittle things down, so we’re hoping to capture mbitard and an infra-core online at the same time so we can capture an actual event. | 16:08 |
| krotscheck | yolanda: That’d be the first step. | 16:08 |
| fungi | yolanda: SergeyLukjanov: i already went through the logs. the trick is that we're logging all manner of errors but none which mention that account name and we have no feedback from the user as to when they got the error | 16:08 |
| SergeyLukjanov | okay | 16:09 |
| krotscheck | #action krotscheck File a story for storyboard spamming log errors. | 16:09 |
| fungi | so step 1 is to find this user and get them to try again under more controlled circumstances (get approximate timestamps, find out the source ip address, et cetera) | 16:09 |
| fungi | otherwise i don't think it will be able to move forward | 16:09 |
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| yolanda | do we have contact details for that user? | 16:10 |
| krotscheck | Next issue: reed reported that the project group summary page does not actually filter stories by project group. | 16:10 |
| SergeyLukjanov | fungi, where the log files located? I see the /var/log/storyboard empty | 16:10 |
| fungi | SergeyLukjanov: apache logs | 16:10 |
| krotscheck | yolanda: he’s mbitard on irc. | 16:10 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | fungi, thx | 16:10 |
| fungi | SergeyLukjanov: they're the access and error logs for the storyboard vhost | 16:10 |
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| fungi | SergeyLukjanov: since it runs as a subprocess of the apache daemon | 16:11 |
| krotscheck | Case and point: https://storyboard.openstack.org/api/v1/stories?project_group_id=57 | 16:12 |
| krotscheck | (57 is storyboard) | 16:12 |
| krotscheck | So that’s something that should be fairly straightforward to build some test cases and fix. | 16:12 |
| krotscheck | Anyone want to pick into the API and figure this out? Else I’ll do it. | 16:13 |
| krotscheck | #action krotscheck File a story for project group ID not working on stories API, fix. | 16:13 |
| krotscheck | Third issue is how Storyboard tends to log you out in a nonrecoverable manner. jedimike is on that. | 16:14 |
| krotscheck | #action krotscheck make sure that there’s a story for the login issue and assign it to jedimike. | 16:14 |
| yolanda | krotscheck, i created a story for it | 16:14 |
| krotscheck | yolanda: Awesome. | 16:14 |
| krotscheck | yolanda++ | 16:14 |
| krotscheck | #undo :) | 16:14 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Action object at 0x3dd1f10> | 16:14 |
| krotscheck | Whoa, that works? | 16:15 |
| krotscheck | Neat! | 16:15 |
| krotscheck | #topic Urgent Items | 16:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Urgent Items (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 16:15 | |
| krotscheck | None on the agenda, does anyone have one to raise? | 16:15 |
| rcarrillocruz | i have something, but not urgent | 16:15 |
| rcarrillocruz | not sure if applicable now | 16:15 |
| rcarrillocruz | https://storyboard.openstack.org/#!/story/153 | 16:15 |
| rcarrillocruz | i've looked a bit about it this weekend | 16:15 |
| rcarrillocruz | how about a websocket streaming api | 16:16 |
| rcarrillocruz | i think we could do this API around gevent-socketio, so consumers can subscribe to streams of events based on filters | 16:16 |
| krotscheck | For reference: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/105252/ | 16:16 |
| NikitaKonovalov | rcarrillocruz: I thought krotscheck had a spec for that | 16:16 |
| rcarrillocruz | etc | 16:16 |
| rcarrillocruz | k thx | 16:17 |
| krotscheck | And yes, it says WebSocket. | 16:17 |
| krotscheck | :D | 16:17 |
| rcarrillocruz | heh | 16:17 |
| krotscheck | (great minds, think alike, rcarrillocruz ) | 16:17 |
| rcarrillocruz | i'm glad it wasn't a totally mad idea | 16:17 |
| rcarrillocruz | krotscheck: have you started with it yet? | 16:17 |
| krotscheck | I know that there are other opinions about using the jabber protocol, however I’ve only received those in person. | 16:17 |
| krotscheck | rcarrillocruz: I have not. Go nuts! | 16:17 |
| rcarrillocruz | i haven't fiddled with storyboard yet, but i'm looking to start with something | 16:18 |
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| krotscheck | i.e. go for it. | 16:18 |
| rcarrillocruz | awesome | 16:18 |
| krotscheck | rcarrillocruz: Fair warning, taht’s a large piece of code. | 16:18 |
| rcarrillocruz | you can put me as an action | 16:18 |
| jedimike | o/ sorry i'm late | 16:18 |
| rcarrillocruz | yeah, i'll take an exploratory approach | 16:18 |
| jeblair | krotscheck: should i add that spec to the priority spec list? | 16:18 |
| NikitaKonovalov | As for an implementation of that I've not seen WebSocket frameworks used in OpenStack | 16:18 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: I don’t think so, it’s not on our critical path. | 16:18 |
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| krotscheck | #action rcarrillocruz Start working on the storyboard streaming API. | 16:19 |
| NikitaKonovalov | so we need to find a framework for that | 16:19 |
| krotscheck | NikitaKonovalov: Yeah, i don’t think openstack does a lot of web things :D | 16:19 |
| krotscheck | Any more urgent items? | 16:19 |
| jeblair | krotscheck: okay, i want infra-core to review that one before we get too far | 16:19 |
| jeblair | krotscheck: if someone is ready to start on impl, then i think we should | 16:19 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: You got it. | 16:19 |
| krotscheck | #topic Discussion | 16:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Discussion (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 16:20 | |
| krotscheck | #topic Discussion: Story Types | 16:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Discussion: Story Types (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 16:20 | |
| krotscheck | ttx: Floor is yours. | 16:20 |
| krotscheck | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/129267/ | 16:20 |
| ttx | So the numerous reviewers reported that the only thing that make story types tricky is trgheir interaction with branches | 16:21 |
| ttx | namely, the fact that some story types would restrict the target branches for tasks | 16:21 |
| ttx | that said, it's a bit difficult to discuss that until we actually have support for branches at all | 16:21 |
| ttx | since it leads to red herrings like "we need to support projects that don't really have branches" | 16:22 |
| ttx | which is a bit oethogonal to that discussion | 16:22 |
| ttx | +r | 16:22 |
| ttx | So... I'll draft the spec on branch support first :) | 16:22 |
| ttx | and revisit story types once that is done | 16:22 |
| krotscheck | Alrightey, shall I replace the discussion topic with branch support, or are you not yet ready to talk about that? | 16:23 |
| NikitaKonovalov | ttx: do you want the branches to look like they do in LP now? | 16:23 |
| ttx | NikitaKonovalov: well, minus the weird part | 16:23 |
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| ttx | (the weird part being... they have magic branch that is both current series and master | 16:24 |
| ttx | which is VERY confusing | 16:24 |
| ttx | ) | 16:24 |
| krotscheck | #topic Discussion: Branch Support | 16:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Discussion: Branch Support (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 16:24 | |
| ttx | so yeah, overall the idea is to allow to have tasks that are targeted toward the development branch (master) | 16:25 |
| ttx | and tasks that are about backporting to older branches | 16:25 |
| krotscheck | Ok, so where is a branch associated to a repository? Do projects need repo support? | 16:25 |
| ttx | the notion of development branch / master could degrade gracefully to mean "the current thing" | 16:26 |
| NikitaKonovalov | afaik, LP allows projects define their own branches and series, should we do the same? | 16:26 |
| ttx | krotscheck: oh, you mean, where would SB learn about the branches there are ? | 16:26 |
| krotscheck | ttx: Yep | 16:26 |
| ttx | krotscheck: importing branches from git would be neat | 16:26 |
| ttx | but LP forces you to define them | 16:26 |
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| ttx | so both approaches are possible I guess | 16:27 |
| ttx | I'll make sure to cover that in spec | 16:27 |
| krotscheck | ttx: Got it, | 16:27 |
| jeblair | i think since we're expeciting storyboard's git support to be external... | 16:27 |
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| jeblair | ..sort of like how we work with lp now -- we have scripts that interact with lp based on gerrit actions.. | 16:28 |
| ttx | krotscheck: fwiw I still think having a project name and a git URL in a separtate field would make sense | 16:28 |
| jeblair | ..we could have branches in storyboard automatically be created by those external tools | 16:28 |
| ttx | so that we stop wasting space listing "openstack/" or "openstack-infra/" on every task | 16:28 |
| jeblair | which still allows for the 'create arbitrary branch' use-case which may be useful for non-git projects | 16:28 |
| ttx | jeblair: yes | 16:29 |
| krotscheck | Yeah, this one’s going to get tricky :) | 16:29 |
| ttx | we just need to make sure projects without branches don't look too funny | 16:29 |
| ttx | I guess if there is a single branch, we could omit talking about "master" | 16:29 |
| ttx | that would look just like it looks today | 16:29 |
| krotscheck | So, first things first: A git repository can be associated with a project, yes? | 16:30 |
| ttx | (just no branch column in case the project only has one branch (or has no git repo) | 16:30 |
| jeblair | i think some non-git projects would actually want to use the term 'master' (after all -- many of them are still in service of things that have git branches) | 16:30 |
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| ttx | krotscheck: I'd say yes | 16:31 |
| krotscheck | Can a project have more than one git repository assocaited with it? | 16:31 |
| ttx | krotscheck: I'd say no | 16:31 |
| NikitaKonovalov | krotscheck: I'd say we need a git project url field for a project first, and then think of a flow how how to load branches if there is one | 16:31 |
| krotscheck | NikitaKonovalov: I agree. | 16:31 |
| NikitaKonovalov | so probably listening on gerrit events | 16:31 |
| krotscheck | NikitaKonovalov: We can either gerrit-event that or cron that. | 16:31 |
| ttx | NikitaKonovalov: could be cron | 16:31 |
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| * krotscheck is working on a new iteration of the cron plugin. | 16:32 | |
| NikitaKonovalov | that depend on how often do the branches appea | 16:32 |
| NikitaKonovalov | r | 16:32 |
| jeblair | just to be clear -- i do not think that listing to gerrit events and acting on them should not be a core part of storyboard | 16:32 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: That’s a double negative ;) | 16:32 |
| jeblair | storyboard should be useful without gerrit, or with other source control systems | 16:32 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: I agree. | 16:32 |
| NikitaKonovalov | It think that mostly happens when OS projects hit release time | 16:32 |
| jeblair | sorry, heh | 16:32 |
| jeblair | just to be clear -- i do not think that listing to gerrit events and acting on them should be a core part of storyboard | 16:32 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: The question becomes whether it’ll be a storyboard plugin in a separate repo, or a gerrit thing that talks to storyboard via the SDK | 16:33 |
| NikitaKonovalov | jeblair: it could be a plugin | 16:33 |
| jeblair | so yeah, we should develop a full suite of tools to do this, but not depend on them architecturally | 16:33 |
| jeblair | sounds like we're on the same page :) | 16:33 |
| krotscheck | Yep. | 16:33 |
| krotscheck | Approach may vary. | 16:33 |
| jeblair | i just really didn't want to get that one wrong :) | 16:33 |
| ttx | OK, should draft that branch thing this week | 16:35 |
| krotscheck | Alright, so it sounds like the first step is to get some way of adding a git repo field to a project, and let ttx write a spec from there. | 16:35 |
| krotscheck | That seems simple enough. | 16:35 |
| krotscheck | Anything else before we move on? | 16:35 |
| ttx | krotscheck: would that allow to make projects names be smaller | 16:35 |
| krotscheck | ttx: ....peeerhaps? | 16:36 |
| krotscheck | ttx: Those project names come from projects.config.yaml though | 16:36 |
| ttx | since we don't allow duplicates across orgs, "openstack-infra/storyboard" could be "storyboard" | 16:36 |
| krotscheck | So you’ll have to argue with jim about that :) | 16:36 |
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| ttx | I hate losing horizontal space. Pet peeve of mine | 16:37 |
| krotscheck | From a technical perspective there’s nothing preventing the project names from being shorter. | 16:37 |
| krotscheck | Ok, next topic | 16:37 |
| ttx | and we'll need more horizontal space with branches :) | 16:37 |
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| krotscheck | #topic Discussion: API Paging | 16:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Discussion: API Paging (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 16:37 | |
| krotscheck | jedimike: THis one’s yours! | 16:37 |
| * jedimike cowers | 16:37 | |
| jedimike | :) | 16:37 |
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| jedimike | ok, I guess we need to decide if we're going to go with some more expensive marker + results snapshot system, or just simple offset/limit? | 16:38 |
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| krotscheck | What’s your recommendation? | 16:38 |
| jedimike | if it's essential that our users don't miss or duplicate any data when paging, the marker+snapshot | 16:39 |
| jedimike | if it's not really an issue, offset+limit | 16:39 |
| jedimike | I would say that, probably, storyboard isnt going to lose people money or bring systems down if they miss out on a few records as they page | 16:40 |
| krotscheck | I agree - in most cases the things that will make people lsoe money should be at the top of the sort list anyway. | 16:40 |
| jedimike | yeah. If this were Horizon, I'd be firmly saying we need the more expensive, absolutely reliable option. But I don't think we do. | 16:41 |
| krotscheck | I’m somewhat curious about the performance implications on someone using an API client to go through All The Things (TM), but I feel that that particular use case can be fixed by removing the max results limit on the API. | 16:42 |
| krotscheck | Assuming that the query prep on deep pages becomes an issue. | 16:42 |
| jedimike | depends on the number of results we'd typically deal with | 16:42 |
| krotscheck | jedimike: I’d say, conservatively, 100K or so? | 16:43 |
| NikitaKonovalov | jedimike: search by one tag may return a really large set | 16:43 |
| jeblair | i think the api case is key -- if you can't reliably interface with the system using the api (and "dropping results" is not reliably interfacing) then it's going to be of much lower value than we want | 16:43 |
| jedimike | and how often would someone page to the thousandth page if we had a result set of 100k? | 16:43 |
| krotscheck | jedimike: Well, we haz reports :) | 16:43 |
| jedimike | hmmm ok... | 16:44 |
| krotscheck | I get what you’re saying though. | 16:44 |
| krotscheck | Personally, I can see cases in which a marker-based page will also result in skipped records. | 16:44 |
| jedimike | the thing is, a non-snapshotted marker based paging system fails all of its goals when you can order by arbritary columns | 16:45 |
| krotscheck | Especially in sorted situations. | 16:45 |
| jedimike | if you snapshot, you can be golden, but it's much more expensive to do | 16:45 |
| krotscheck | Yeah, that requires all kinds of caching. | 16:45 |
| jedimike | yeah. can shard nicely though ;) | 16:46 |
| krotscheck | Though the request becomes more of a POST -> Create this result set for me, and then a 302 redirect to where that result set lives. | 16:46 |
| jedimike | yes, basically it does | 16:46 |
| krotscheck | And the POST can include a “Keep it around for X days" | 16:46 |
| krotscheck | Again, though, marker based paging gives us no idea of where within the result set a user is. | 16:47 |
| jedimike | and the position can change at any time, with no notification | 16:47 |
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| krotscheck | So I kindof feel that the need to snapshot and the method by which we traverse a result set are two different discussions. | 16:47 |
| jedimike | you could find yourself back on the first page after paging through 100 pages, with no idea it's happened | 16:47 |
| jedimike | if we snapshot, we can use markers to navigate and I'd recommend we do because of the nice use of indexes it brings | 16:48 |
| jedimike | and because we're snapshotting, underlying data changes won't affect where we are | 16:48 |
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| krotscheck | jedimike: How about the usability bit of “You’re on record X of YYYY”? | 16:48 |
| jedimike | but snapshotting 100k results for a search, or every time a search *changes* is not in any sense cheap | 16:49 |
| jedimike | krotscheck, that's easily done by caching counts, seeing how many records are after the marker and how many ther are in total | 16:49 |
| krotscheck | jedimike: That requires though that you start at the beginning in the client. | 16:49 |
| krotscheck | jedimike: If you don’t, you’ve got no idea. | 16:50 |
| jedimike | krotscheck, not if you calculate the page markers and cache them | 16:50 |
| jedimike | then you can jump to pages | 16:50 |
| krotscheck | jedimike: Right, or if the cached record set gives you an order index as well. | 16:50 |
| krotscheck | (Because users can be annoying and change their page sizes. | 16:50 |
| jedimike | and if you know the marker you can get back where marker > than this.marker to see how many follow, and you know the total | 16:50 |
| jedimike | yes | 16:50 |
| krotscheck | Yeah, sounds like there’s a solution there. | 16:51 |
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| jedimike | in the case of an ordered result set, the marker becomes a combination of pk and the value in the ordered column | 16:51 |
| krotscheck | That would also greatly improve API performance, because we can include expiration headers on search results and use the browser cache to reduce API calls. | 16:51 |
| jedimike | it just means a lot more inserts/deletes, and we need to figure out, based on our (predicted) usage patterns, which is going to serve us better | 16:52 |
| krotscheck | jedimike: You mean prewarmed result caches? | 16:52 |
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| jedimike | that's interesting, but cache invalidation becomes a problem that needs solving there | 16:53 |
| jedimike | i mean, which would be lesser - the overhead of snapshotting, or the overhead of using offsets, with the usage pattern we think we'll see when this gets big? | 16:53 |
| krotscheck | jedimike: Maybe. Just take a snapshot of the prewarmed results at that moment? | 16:54 |
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| krotscheck | jedimike: Don’t forget the overhead of breaking things downstream if we change our paging parameters. | 16:54 |
| krotscheck | Twice. | 16:54 |
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| jedimike | krotscheck, in the past, i've only snapshotted the pk and the value ordered by so that i can join on the main data table and highlight any changes to the ordered value in the ui without having the change affect the order | 16:55 |
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| krotscheck | jedimike: That’s sane. | 16:55 |
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| krotscheck | It feels like we’re coming to a consensus on using marker paging with snapshots. | 16:56 |
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| jedimike | yeah, so your table is narrow and if you left join, you even cope with deletes quite easily, without affecting any navigation | 16:56 |
| krotscheck | And that things like what-is-shapshotted and so forth should just be detailed out in a spec. | 16:56 |
| krotscheck | (Also we’re running out of time) | 16:56 |
| jedimike | yeah, and how the snapshots are sharded, the housekeeping around them, etc. | 16:56 |
| krotscheck | jedimike: Yeah, that’s implementation details :) | 16:57 |
| jedimike | indeed :) | 16:57 |
| krotscheck | jedimike: For the sake of sanity, can you put that into a spec for us? | 16:57 |
| jedimike | yes, I can write up the approach i outlined on the mailing list into a generic paging spec | 16:57 |
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| krotscheck | jedimike: Works for me. | 16:58 |
| krotscheck | #action jedimike Write paging spec. | 16:58 |
| jedimike | cool :) | 16:58 |
| NikitaKonovalov | jedimike: works for me as well | 16:58 |
| krotscheck | Since we only have a little time yet, I’m going to bounce out directly to open discussion and we’ll visit the other discussion topics next week or in channel. | 16:58 |
| krotscheck | #topic Open Discussion | 16:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 16:58 | |
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| krotscheck | Anything? | 16:59 |
| * krotscheck has nothing. | 16:59 | |
| NikitaKonovalov | I've finally got a client created | 16:59 |
| NikitaKonovalov | So there are a few changes up | 16:59 |
| krotscheck | WOO | 16:59 |
| rcarrillocruz | NikitaKonovalov: nice | 16:59 |
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| rcarrillocruz | where ? :-) | 16:59 |
| CTtpollard | cool NikitaKonovalov | 16:59 |
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| NikitaKonovalov | if the general approach is OK, I'll start covering it with tests docs and enpoint support | 16:59 |
| NikitaKonovalov | the repo is openstack-infra/python-storyboardclient | 17:00 |
| krotscheck | Cool | 17:00 |
| rcarrillocruz | awesome | 17:00 |
| CTtpollard | :) | 17:00 |
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| krotscheck | Alright, thanks everyone! We’re out of time. | 17:01 |
| krotscheck | #endmeeting | 17:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Mon Dec 1 17:01:07 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/storyboard/2014/storyboard.2014-12-01-16.00.html | 17:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/storyboard/2014/storyboard.2014-12-01-16.00.txt | 17:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/storyboard/2014/storyboard.2014-12-01-16.00.log.html | 17:01 |
| devananda | hi all! anyone here for the Ironic meeting, at our new place and time? | 17:01 |
| jroll | \o | 17:01 |
| lucasagomes | me | 17:01 |
| ChuckC | o/ | 17:01 |
| NobodyCam | w00 h00 nice new digs | 17:01 |
| Nisha | me | 17:01 |
| naohirot | o/ | 17:01 |
| vdrok | o/ | 17:01 |
| Shrews | o/ | 17:01 |
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| yuriyz | o/ | 17:01 |
| JoshNang | o/ | 17:01 |
| stendulker | o/ | 17:01 |
| rloo | o/ | 17:02 |
| devananda | great! let's get started | 17:02 |
| devananda | #startmeeting ironic | 17:02 |
| openstack | Meeting started Mon Dec 1 17:02:09 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is devananda. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: ironic)" | 17:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'ironic' | 17:02 |
| devananda | #chair NobodyCam | 17:02 |
| openstack | Current chairs: NobodyCam devananda | 17:02 |
| devananda | #topic announcements | 17:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "announcements (Meeting topic: ironic)" | 17:02 | |
| devananda | as usual, our agenda is here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Ironic | 17:02 |
| devananda | however, not as usual, we're at a new place and time | 17:02 |
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| devananda | and we're alternating -- so next week will *not* be at this time | 17:03 |
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| Nisha | devananda, thanks for the new times. It works for us | 17:03 |
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| devananda | next week will be at 0500 UTC tuesday, which translates to 11pm PST, for those who think in US time zones | 17:03 |
| devananda | Nisha: you're welcome | 17:03 |
| NobodyCam | :) | 17:03 |
| Nisha | :) | 17:04 |
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| devananda | that's the only announcement from me. NobodyCam ? | 17:04 |
| ChuckC | 0500 UTC == 2100 PST | 17:04 |
| lucasagomes | I will be in brazil next week and on, that will me 3am for me. So I won't be able to join the next meeting | 17:04 |
| NobodyCam | no announcements here | 17:04 |
| naohirot | devananda: I noticed that Neutron team announced surprisingly early deadlines at here | 17:04 |
| devananda | ChuckC: urgh. you are correct | 17:05 |
| naohirot | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/NeutronKiloProjectPlan | 17:05 |
| naohirot | devananda: Are we going to announce such that deadlines too? | 17:05 |
| * ChuckC didn't want to stay up that late ;-) | 17:05 | |
| * dtantsur hopes no | 17:05 | |
| NobodyCam | wow that is a early deadline | 17:05 |
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| dtantsur | we won't land anything, if we do :D | 17:06 |
| naohirot | NobodyCam: yes | 17:06 |
| NobodyCam | like one week | 17:06 |
| rloo | my understanding is that we're going with this sched: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Kilo_Release_Schedule | 17:06 |
| jroll | wow, let's not do that | 17:06 |
| devananda | #info As we are now alternating weekly times, next week's meeting is at 0500 UTC Tuesday (or 2100 PST Monday) | 17:06 |
| devananda | naohirot: Neutron is doing a very massive refactoring this cycle | 17:06 |
| naohirot | rloo: I see | 17:06 |
| devananda | naohirot: they are, afaik, the only project doing that. so a separate schedule makes sense for them | 17:06 |
| devananda | we are not | 17:06 |
| lucasagomes | rloo, +1 | 17:07 |
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| zyluo_ | Should there be a specs deadline? | 17:07 |
| devananda | rloo pointed to the Kilo release schedule already, and my plan is to follow that for this cycle | 17:07 |
| NobodyCam | zyluo_: yes.. we had a deadline last cycle | 17:07 |
| devananda | zyluo_: there is. see the link | 17:07 |
| naohirot | devananda: so we are following the official schedule at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Kilo_Release_Schedule, right? | 17:07 |
| devananda | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Kilo_Release_Schedule | 17:07 |
| lucasagomes | zyluo_, yes, because of the feature freeze and all | 17:07 |
| devananda | yes | 17:07 |
| rloo | devananda: maybe an #info and an email out about the spec deadlines? | 17:07 |
| naohirot | devananda: Okay | 17:08 |
| yuriyz | +1 | 17:08 |
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| devananda | rloo: sure, will do | 17:08 |
| devananda | #topic subteam status | 17:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "subteam status (Meeting topic: ironic)" | 17:08 | |
| rloo | devananda: thx | 17:08 |
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| NobodyCam | I like the new status format .... thank you all | 17:08 |
| devananda | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/IronicWhiteBoard | 17:08 |
| devananda | giving folks a minute or two to review the status on the whiteboard | 17:09 |
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| devananda | if you have questions or comments, please raise them | 17:09 |
| jroll | oops | 17:09 |
| naohirot | NobodyCam: I added iRMC status :-) | 17:09 |
| * jroll forgot to update IPA status | 17:09 | |
| jroll | updated | 17:09 |
| * zyluo_ just saw featureproposalfreeze | 17:10 | |
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| NobodyCam | naohirot: awesome thank you :) | 17:11 |
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| naohirot | NobodyCam: wc | 17:11 |
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| devananda | Nisha: feedback for wanyen - it's great that she is reviewing other specs, but that's not really a driver status report | 17:12 |
| Nisha | devananda, ok | 17:12 |
| devananda | if there are no questions, let's move on | 17:13 |
| NobodyCam | +1 | 17:13 |
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| devananda | #topic changes to the 'maintenance mode' API | 17:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "changes to the 'maintenance mode' API (Meeting topic: ironic)" | 17:13 | |
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| devananda | I filed this bug last week | 17:14 |
| devananda | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/136934/ | 17:14 |
| devananda | tldr; there was a LOG line about deprecation | 17:14 |
| devananda | in the API service | 17:14 |
| devananda | we added a feature recently that allows tracking a maintenance reason, and in so doing, added a second RESTful means to change the status of the maintenance field | 17:15 |
| devananda | with no clear way to remove the first method | 17:15 |
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| devananda | I'd like to suggest that we don't remove it | 17:15 |
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| NobodyCam | devananda: for backward compat ? | 17:16 |
| lucasagomes | I was thinking about having it documented as deprecated for one cycle | 17:16 |
| devananda | lucasagomes: documentation != deprecation. users won't know. | 17:16 |
| rloo | I don't like having two different ways of doing almost the same thing. But I suppose we already have that/will have that in other situations. | 17:16 |
| jroll | I think I'm fine without removing it, I don't see a need to; the only downside of leaving it is that folks can clear maintenance mode without clearing the reason | 17:16 |
| lucasagomes | I understand it's hard to programatically say it's deprecated in that case because it's not an endpoint in the API only for that (so you can't use 301 (Permanently Moved) as return code for e.g) | 17:17 |
| lucasagomes | right yeah, my concern is once we start adding more stuff to the new endpoint | 17:17 |
| rloo | jroll: that isn't good, not clearing the reason | 17:17 |
| devananda | there is no means, AFAIK, to indicate to users of our API that PATCH /v1/nodes/<uuid> {op: replace, key: maintenance, value: othervalue} is no longer acceptable | 17:17 |
| lucasagomes | like sending notification once the node is put on the maitenance etc, we would need to change in both places | 17:17 |
| devananda | so, not clearing the reason is bad -- but also easy to fix | 17:17 |
| jroll | rloo: but we could special case *that* part | 17:18 |
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| rloo | jroll, devananda: yes (we should fix it) | 17:18 |
| Nisha | +1 | 17:18 |
| jroll | lucasagomes: but we should send notifications for PATCH /nodes/uuid as well, nova will see it either way | 17:18 |
| jroll | lucasagomes: so I disagree that's a problem | 17:18 |
| rloo | is the only reason for not getting rid of it is because we don't know how to deprecate it and we may break someone's usage? | 17:18 |
| devananda | lucasagomes: if a user('s existing automation tooling) is using the icehouse,juno PATCH approach, then they have no means to set the maintenance_reason. | 17:19 |
| Shrews | devananda: so are you suggesting that the old method could be adjusted to automatically clear the reason | 17:19 |
| Shrews | ? | 17:19 |
| devananda | lucasagomes: if they're using the new approach, it is clearer for them. | 17:19 |
| devananda | Shrews: yes | 17:19 |
| lucasagomes | jroll, it's not very user friendly to have 2 endpoints to the same thing | 17:19 |
| lucasagomes | not a technical reason | 17:19 |
| Shrews | devananda: yeah, that seems like a good compromise | 17:19 |
| devananda | Shrews: that solves the "two clients manipulating the same node in different ways leaves dangling data" problem | 17:19 |
| rloo | Shrews: and if they set to maintanance on, they can't specify the reason | 17:19 |
| lucasagomes | another approach maybe would be to add a custom HTTP header | 17:20 |
| lucasagomes | X-deprecated idk | 17:20 |
| Shrews | rloo: i don't see that as a problem | 17:20 |
| lucasagomes | and in the lib/client we can look at it and give the user a message | 17:20 |
| devananda | lucasagomes: I agree that it's not the most user friendly thing to have two APIs to change the same thing. However, breaking the current API without any user-visible warning isn't good either | 17:20 |
| rloo | when we have a v2, would we get rid of it then? | 17:20 |
| devananda | lucasagomes: there are other clients out there. making a change in ours doesn't inform everyone else of the change | 17:20 |
| devananda | rloo: yes :) | 17:20 |
| rloo | hmm. ok, i'm fine with this then. On to v2 one day... :-) | 17:21 |
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| NobodyCam | I can see the value to leaving it.. until we move on to a V2 api | 17:21 |
| lucasagomes | aight... yeah it's fine to keep it then. /me runs out of ideas to know how to deprecate that | 17:21 |
| devananda | if folks want to discuss futher, let's do that on the bug report / mailing list | 17:22 |
| lucasagomes | +1 | 17:22 |
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| Shrews | boo technical debt, but yay helping users | 17:22 |
| devananda | #topic discovery is blocked on the state machine | 17:22 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "discovery is blocked on the state machine (Meeting topic: ironic)" | 17:22 | |
| devananda | dtantsur: hi! I think this is you | 17:23 |
| rloo | can we decide now, what to do, or should we always send email to the list for those that can't attend the meeting? | 17:23 |
| dtantsur | oh sorry | 17:23 |
| devananda | dtantsur: hm, hang on one moment, sorry | 17:23 |
| devananda | #undo | 17:23 |
| openstack | Removing item from minutes: <ircmeeting.items.Topic object at 0x3ac00d0> | 17:23 |
| jroll | I mean, many things are blocked on the state machine... | 17:23 |
| *** jgrimm is now known as zz_jgrimm | 17:23 | |
| devananda | #agreed keep both endpoints for now, plan to drop the old one (if/)when we have a v2 API | 17:23 |
| devananda | #topic discovery is blocked on the state machine | 17:24 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "discovery is blocked on the state machine (Meeting topic: ironic)" | 17:24 | |
| devananda | there :) | 17:24 |
| rloo | thx devananda | 17:24 |
| rloo | jroll: i'll offer to update the spec | 17:24 |
| jroll | rloo: what spec? | 17:24 |
| NobodyCam | victor_lowther: just put up a new state machine spec that I have not had a chance to look at BTW | 17:25 |
| rloo | jroll: the maintenance spec with the deprecate thingy that I added | 17:25 |
| dtantsur | aha. just wanted to get your opinion, if we can short-cut discovery specs, while we're talking about state machine | 17:25 |
| devananda | rloo: ++ | 17:25 |
| jroll | rloo: ok, cool, gopher it | 17:25 |
| dtantsur | because discovery only needs 2 new states and does not need e.g. talk about zapping to finish | 17:25 |
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| rloo | i think we should all try to get the state machine spec approved instead of shortcutting anything else | 17:25 |
| victor_lowther | NobodyCam: This rev is tox compliance, speling fixes, and fix the bothced state machine ascii art. | 17:25 |
| dtantsur | rloo, discovery spec is ~ready, while state machine is not even close to | 17:26 |
| NobodyCam | ahh :) | 17:26 |
| devananda | dtantsur: it seemed that the state machine spec discussion had stalled around the init/enroll/discovery process | 17:26 |
| victor_lowther | All the substantive issues are still present. :) | 17:26 |
| devananda | dtantsur: which makes me hesitant to short cut something in that space | 17:26 |
| devananda | dtantsur: also, that discussion is on the agenda today too | 17:26 |
| dtantsur | devananda, then maybe postpone this question and proceed to the 2nd? | 17:26 |
| devananda | ++ | 17:27 |
| jroll | I mean, we know there will be discovery states, it's just the transitions that are stalling yes? | 17:27 |
| devananda | #info question deferred until later in the agenda | 17:27 |
| rloo | dtantsur: you're only blocked on getting code approved for discovery, right? | 17:27 |
| lucasagomes | jroll, seems so | 17:27 |
| dtantsur | which is: any objections for discovery to be in it's own interface? like IntrospectionInterface? | 17:27 |
| jroll | so the discovery spec can just go ahead IMO | 17:27 |
| victor_lowther | IMO, discovery should be totally driven by introspection. | 17:28 |
| jroll | everyone seems to like IntrospectionInterface, and we'll probably need it... but our driver matrix is getting insane | 17:28 |
| victor_lowther | my latest comments to the discovery spec points out that system hw properties are not stable in INIT. | 17:28 |
| victor_lowther | jroll: hence composable drivers. | 17:28 |
| lucasagomes | yeah... I like the interface as well it gives flexibility to the drivers | 17:28 |
| jroll | victor_lowther: I want to try that. people don't think it will work. | 17:29 |
| devananda | victor_lowther: or cute names for drivers | 17:29 |
| lucasagomes | I believe that people may start compositing their own driver downstream with the interfaces they like | 17:29 |
| victor_lowther | jroll: crowbar does it. | 17:29 |
| * NobodyCam likes cute names | 17:29 | |
| rloo | so +1 to IntrospectionInterface | 17:29 |
| jroll | victor_lowther: right, of course it works in general, I just mean in ironic | 17:29 |
| rloo | -1 to cute names ;) | 17:29 |
| NobodyCam | ;) | 17:29 |
| dtantsur | I think Nisha agreed to IntrospectionInterface too, right? | 17:30 |
| victor_lowther | No reason it could not in Ironic | 17:30 |
| Nisha | ++ | 17:30 |
| victor_lowther | v2, that is | 17:30 |
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| victor_lowther | because there would probably be incompatible API changes. | 17:30 |
| devananda | if Ironic "ships with" a set of composed drivers, and instructions on how to compose them differently, should an operator so desire | 17:30 |
| devananda | is that enough? | 17:30 |
| jroll | victor_lowther: there may be reasons, e.g. drivers sometimes depend on each other | 17:30 |
| jroll | I want to figure it out, to be clear | 17:31 |
| devananda | I think we'll want to improve the testing around arbitrarily-composable drivers if we go the route of enouraging downstream compositing | 17:31 |
| devananda | jroll: exactly my concern | 17:31 |
| jroll | devananda: I really want to look into composing them arbitrarily | 17:31 |
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| jroll | yeah | 17:31 |
| victor_lowther | As long as they declare the depencency and the core does the Right Thing with dep info, that is not a problem. | 17:31 |
| jroll | yeah | 17:31 |
| rloo | we need a spec for composable drivers :-) | 17:31 |
| lucasagomes | devananda, it sounds good. Tho we still need to work on some interface dependencies, for e.g pxe deploy also depends on the pxe vendor | 17:32 |
| devananda | I don't think we have that today. and so, at least in this cycle, yes, I think we'll see a continued increase in number of entries in the driver namespace | 17:32 |
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| lucasagomes | without it it doesn't work (because of the pass_deploy_info) | 17:32 |
| lucasagomes | but I believe it's a good goal | 17:32 |
| devananda | lucasagomes: right | 17:32 |
| jroll | indeed | 17:32 |
| jroll | enabled_drivers will get interesting, too | 17:32 |
| devananda | #info arbitrary driver compositing is a good goal, but not there today (and unlikely for this cycle, given other work) | 17:33 |
| dtantsur | are we still arguing about IntrospectionInterface? | 17:33 |
| * dtantsur is confused | 17:33 | |
| NobodyCam | jroll: oh thats a good point | 17:33 |
| victor_lowther | Not really, but we should be. | 17:33 |
| jroll | dtantsur: no, I don't think anyone is saying no to that | 17:33 |
| lucasagomes | dtantsur, I think we mostly agreed with the Introspectioninterface | 17:33 |
| dtantsur | ack, I'll call it agreed :) | 17:33 |
| jroll | NobodyCam: x.x | 17:33 |
| rloo | so we're agreed then? +2 for IntrospectionInterfaace? | 17:33 |
| lucasagomes | now it's mostly about incrising the matrix to composite a driver | 17:33 |
| lucasagomes | but I see it as a diff problem | 17:33 |
| devananda | #info adding an IntrospectionInterface increases the number of entries in the driver namespace, but it's a good thing regardless | 17:33 |
| dtantsur | Nisha, ^^^ | 17:34 |
| jroll | lucasagomes: yeah, let's jfdi for now | 17:34 |
| devananda | #agreed add new IntrospectionInterface | 17:34 |
| NobodyCam | +1 :) | 17:34 |
| Nisha | :) +1 | 17:34 |
| devananda | #topic adding PUT support for API resources | 17:34 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "adding PUT support for API resources (Meeting topic: ironic)" | 17:34 | |
| devananda | vdrok: hi! | 17:34 |
| vdrok | devananda, hi | 17:35 |
| vdrok | there are couple of questions about adding put to create/update resources | 17:35 |
| vdrok | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/130228/ | 17:35 |
| vdrok | change for nodes is here^ | 17:35 |
| vdrok | should we PUT the whole document or only fields that need to be changed? | 17:35 |
| devananda | vdrok: AIUI, PUT by its definition requires one to PUT the whole document | 17:36 |
| lucasagomes | indeed, usually it's like GET -> [modify] -> PUT | 17:36 |
| lucasagomes | that's why we have PATCH for partial resources updates | 17:36 |
| victor_lowther | ya, but I have seen that pretty widely ignored. | 17:36 |
| vdrok | ok, then will udpate the change to do that | 17:37 |
| vdrok | to reflect the changes i need to add DocImpact and ApiImpact flags to commit messages, is it correct? | 17:37 |
| devananda | victor_lowther: how can one express the deletion of an element via PUT without honoring that? | 17:37 |
| jroll | just curious, have we already agreed that this is valuable? | 17:37 |
| lucasagomes | victor_lowther, well, I mean we should try to suck less then | 17:37 |
| devananda | i'm curious -- does anyone feel that we need PUT support for top-level resources (eg nodes, ports) in Ironic? | 17:38 |
| victor_lowther | In JSON terms, either by putting the thing with a nil value, or just not handling it well. | 17:38 |
| vdrok | jroll, i think i saw that on one of the summit etherpads | 17:38 |
| jroll | I don't think we need it, personally | 17:38 |
| lucasagomes | the only benefit I see with PUT is that it may be more user friendly | 17:38 |
| jroll | vdrok: I think that was just an idea someone through out | 17:38 |
| lucasagomes | right now we require people to build a json-patch | 17:38 |
| jroll | through/threw | 17:38 |
| victor_lowther | and there is a difference between JSON PATCH and the PATCH HTTP method | 17:38 |
| jroll | right, ok | 17:39 |
| jroll | so I think JSON PATCH is better | 17:39 |
| victor_lowther | https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6902 <-- JSON PATCH rfc | 17:39 |
| jroll | if you do a GET/PUT, there could be a race | 17:39 |
| jroll | and things get messy | 17:39 |
| devananda | victor_lowther: AIUI, a JSON PATCH is the BODY document sent to an HTTP PATCH request | 17:39 |
| lucasagomes | victor_lowther, yup we use a lib that implements that rfc | 17:39 |
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| lucasagomes | #link https://github.com/stefankoegl/python-json-patch | 17:39 |
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| rloo | i thought we wanted PUT cuz it was idempotent? | 17:40 |
| devananda | building a JSON PATCH is not necessarily simple. I ran into this when taking a stab at an ansible client | 17:40 |
| jroll | yeah, it makes declarative things harder | 17:40 |
| devananda | as a client, I want $this information on the Node, but it has $that information right now | 17:40 |
| devananda | with the current PATCH support, I have to figure out the transformation myself, in the client | 17:40 |
| lucasagomes | I believe that we could make the library smarter to help with that syntax problem | 17:41 |
| yuriyz | PUT with create-or-update logic is idempotent, this is a big advantage IMO | 17:41 |
| lucasagomes | like creating a json-patch by diffing documents | 17:41 |
| devananda | and anyone using a different client lib (or one in a different language) has to repeat that effort | 17:41 |
| devananda | lucasagomes: so that would help python developers. but there are other languages in the world ;) | 17:41 |
| NobodyCam | devananda: ++ | 17:41 |
| devananda | so at least, in this regard, adding PUT support would make things simpler for some users | 17:42 |
| jroll | this might be useful btw http://json-delta.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ | 17:42 |
| victor_lowther | PUT is only idempotent of nothing has changed since you got the original on the server. | 17:42 |
| jroll | actually | 17:42 |
| jroll | https://github.com/stefankoegl/python-json-patch/blob/master/doc/commandline.rst | 17:42 |
| victor_lowther | We have a mechanism in place for detecting that? | 17:42 |
| jroll | same person as json patch ^ | 17:43 |
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| devananda | victor_lowther: ooh. nope | 17:43 |
| jroll | victor_lowther: no, that's one of my problems with this | 17:43 |
| victor_lowther | ya | 17:43 |
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| victor_lowther | so | 17:43 |
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| victor_lowther | when updating something, send back the old one and the new one | 17:43 |
| lucasagomes | jroll, nice | 17:43 |
| jroll | I think devs that nee declarative things could use python-json-patch | 17:43 |
| jroll | need* | 17:43 |
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| victor_lowther | then the server can say, sorry, try again if its copy of the resource does not match the old one you sent | 17:44 |
| jroll | ... or just send a PATCH :| | 17:45 |
| jroll | I don't see much value in this work | 17:45 |
| vdrok | so, whats the agreement then? | 17:46 |
| devananda | json-delta looks like it addresses my needs | 17:46 |
| NobodyCam | *<15 minutes to go | 17:46 |
| * NobodyCam needs to look at json-delta more | 17:47 | |
| jroll | nonono, look at python-json-patch https://python-json-patch.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ | 17:47 |
| devananda | anyone have a strong argument in favor of PUT, such that we should do the work to support it properly? | 17:47 |
| victor_lowther | PUT or PATCH a json patch, and handle it according to HTTP PATCH settings no matter how you get it. | 17:47 |
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| rloo | devananda: you filed the bug that may have led to that patch: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ironic/+bug/1272599 | 17:48 |
| devananda | victor_lowther: I mean, w.r.t. handling PUT of a whole document, not a patch | 17:48 |
| victor_lowther | point and laugh at the client. :) | 17:49 |
| devananda | rloo: indeed I did. and we now have support for client-side UUID creation | 17:49 |
| devananda | actually, I think that bug can be closed | 17:49 |
| victor_lowther | or live in an eventaully consistent world | 17:49 |
| NobodyCam | *ten minutes | 17:50 |
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| rloo | devananda: great, let's close the bug then. | 17:50 |
| rloo | vdrok: thx for all the work you put in this... | 17:50 |
| vdrok | okay, then i'll update the change to put json patches? | 17:50 |
| jroll | we already have patch for json patches? | 17:50 |
| devananda | jroll: huh? | 17:50 |
| lucasagomes | PUT a json patch!? | 17:50 |
| lucasagomes | oh noes please | 17:50 |
| vdrok | or abandon? :) | 17:50 |
| lucasagomes | it's not needed | 17:50 |
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| rloo | do we want PUT for anything? doesn't sound like it? | 17:51 |
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| jroll | devananda: I guess that wasn't a question | 17:51 |
| jroll | I vote we don't need PUT | 17:51 |
| NobodyCam | sounds like we're talking our selfs out of put support | 17:51 |
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| jroll | yes | 17:51 |
| devananda | as a user, I still feel that it would be easier to write clients for PUT, especially of subresources (like node.properties) | 17:52 |
| jroll | we really need to land the state machine spec this week... | 17:52 |
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| lucasagomes | I see the UX benefit in having PUT (as a whole document) I just don't know if that's really needed | 17:52 |
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| devananda | but let's move on, since it sounds like there's agreement to not bother with PUT now, and alternatives alraedy exist | 17:52 |
| yuriyz | +1 for put whole document | 17:52 |
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| victor_lowther | jroll: state machine scope will have to be narrowed if it is to land this week. | 17:53 |
| devananda | #info no agreement on whether we should or shouldn't have PUT, but also, no clear need for it. deferring any further discussion | 17:53 |
| jroll | what, why? | 17:53 |
| devananda | #topic new state machine | 17:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "new state machine (Meeting topic: ironic)" | 17:53 | |
| NobodyCam | I added some comments to help reviewers do just that | 17:53 |
| victor_lowther | no real discussion or consensus on wait_flag | 17:53 |
| victor_lowther | so that should probably be deferred until later | 17:54 |
| devananda | a lot of other things depend on the state machine at this point | 17:54 |
| victor_lowther | and dropped from the current spec | 17:54 |
| jroll | we can't defer it, ironic doesn't work with a wait flag | 17:54 |
| lucasagomes | one thing that I see on the proposed state machine is that it's too complex/hard to debug | 17:54 |
| lucasagomes | for e.g | 17:54 |
| devananda | so I agree, we need to focus on getting agreement on _enough_ of that so we can proceed | 17:54 |
| lucasagomes | from INIT to AVAILABLE | 17:54 |
| lucasagomes | you have 3 paths | 17:54 |
| devananda | even if there are other aspects which take longer to flesh out | 17:54 |
| lucasagomes | INIT -> DISCOVERING -> ZAPPING -> AVAILABLE | 17:54 |
| lucasagomes | INIT -> AVAIALABLE | 17:54 |
| lucasagomes | INIT -> ZAPPING -> AVAILABLE | 17:55 |
| lucasagomes | once in available you never know from where you came from | 17:55 |
| lucasagomes | it can be very hard to debug | 17:55 |
| devananda | lucasagomes: maybe I'm being dense. why does that matter? | 17:55 |
| dtantsur | lucasagomes, ++ and we also found that DISCOVERING may need to be _after_ ZAPPING... | 17:55 |
| victor_lowther | I am cool with killing the shorter paths and allowing some of the longer states to be NOOP'able | 17:55 |
| jroll | we're doing the last 2 paths in prod today, it hasn't been a problem | 17:55 |
| jroll | (as a note) | 17:56 |
| victor_lowther | they are in because people had use cases for them at the summit | 17:56 |
| rloo | can we address that (if we need to) with a 'previous state' ? | 17:56 |
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| lucasagomes | devananda, well because image you have N nodes, they are same but configured different | 17:56 |
| lucasagomes | some will pass, some will fail | 17:56 |
| lucasagomes | and you never know the previous action | 17:56 |
| jroll | logs can give you an idea, no? | 17:56 |
| lucasagomes | well the idea of having a state mahcine | 17:56 |
| devananda | state transition log table? | 17:56 |
| lucasagomes | is that you can see what are the transitions | 17:56 |
| jroll | oh god | 17:56 |
| lucasagomes | and in our state machine we don;t diff states and actions | 17:57 |
| NobodyCam | rloo: that seems like a lot up keep | 17:57 |
| victor_lowther | I would expect we would be logging the state transitions for any given node as a matter of course. | 17:57 |
| lucasagomes | we only talk about states there, we may need to think like | 17:57 |
| devananda | victor_lowther: I do not think everyone shared taht assumption | 17:57 |
| rloo | NobodyCam: if just the prev state, it isn't cuz to change the state to the new state, you knew what the current state was | 17:57 |
| lucasagomes | to go from state A to B we need an action | 17:57 |
| victor_lowther | lucasagomes: such as? | 17:57 |
| lucasagomes | victor_lowther, such AVAILABLE -> [DEPLOYING] -> DEPLOYED | 17:58 |
| lucasagomes | [deploying] is an action | 17:58 |
| lucasagomes | not a state | 17:58 |
| victor_lowther | no | 17:58 |
| victor_lowther | it is a state in which actions are being performed to the node by Ironic | 17:58 |
| devananda | lucasagomes: it's a state. the system is [CURRENTLY DEPLOYING] | 17:58 |
| lucasagomes | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Finite_state_machine_example_with_comments.svg/244px-Finite_state_machine_example_with_comments.svg.png | 17:58 |
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| NobodyCam | i see that as a state | 17:58 |
| NobodyCam | +1 it is a state in which actions are being performed | 17:59 |
| NobodyCam | *one minute | 17:59 |
| yuriyz | yes when deploy is running | 17:59 |
| devananda | lucasagomes: the action is the user POSTing the new state to Ironic's REST API | 17:59 |
| lucasagomes | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_machine#Concepts_and_terminology | 17:59 |
| victor_lowther | from my POV, the actions that transition between states are API calls | 17:59 |
| victor_lowther | either the REST API or direct method calls | 17:59 |
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| NobodyCam | *beep | 18:00 |
| jroll | back to our channel :| | 18:00 |
| victor_lowther | ya | 18:00 |
| dtantsur | thanks! | 18:00 |
| devananda | thanks all -- clearly this is a longer conversation | 18:00 |
| NobodyCam | ya | 18:00 |
| devananda | #endmeeeting | 18:00 |
| lucasagomes | thanks all | 18:00 |
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| lucasagomes | yeah channel | 18:00 |
| devananda | #endmeeting | 18:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:00 | |
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| openstack | Meeting ended Mon Dec 1 18:00:49 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ironic/2014/ironic.2014-12-01-17.02.html | 18:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ironic/2014/ironic.2014-12-01-17.02.txt | 18:00 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/ironic/2014/ironic.2014-12-01-17.02.log.html | 18:00 |
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