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| krotscheck | #startmeeting StoryBoard | 15:00 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Mon May 11 15:00:17 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is krotscheck. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| krotscheck | hi hi, anyone here? | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'storyboard' | 15:00 |
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| ttx | o/ | 15:01 |
| krotscheck | Woo, that's one! | 15:01 |
| krotscheck | Well, I'm 2 | 15:01 |
| krotscheck | We don't reallly have quorum yet, but then our agenda isn't really very full | 15:02 |
| krotscheck | So let me just run through the updates. | 15:02 |
| ttx | Yeah, I did some reviews and broke it, but the revert seems to be enough to fix it | 15:03 |
| krotscheck | Agenda: | 15:03 |
| krotscheck | #Link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/StoryBoard#Agenda | 15:03 |
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| yolanda | hi | 15:03 |
| krotscheck | Ohai! | 15:03 |
| krotscheck | More people! | 15:03 |
| krotscheck | #topic Actions from Last Week: | 15:03 |
| krotscheck | None | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Actions from Last Week: (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 15:03 | |
| krotscheck | #topic Urgent Items | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Urgent Items (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 15:03 | |
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| krotscheck | Looks like there was an unexpected side effect of one of my patches that broke login. | 15:04 |
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| krotscheck | mordred was kind enough to fast-track a revert of that. | 15:04 |
| yolanda | krotscheck, do you know details, or it needs more investigation? | 15:04 |
| mordred | I didn't do it? | 15:04 |
| mordred | oh. yeah I did | 15:04 |
| krotscheck | yolanda: Well, after I saw what patch it was I deduced the reason. | 15:04 |
| krotscheck | I'm assuming that my "Hey redirect things to the webclient" patch on the API also caught any legitimate redirects to the auth endpoints, and thus shortcircuited the login redirects. | 15:05 |
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| krotscheck | Since I still feel that's the correct way to go about building links to individual tickets, I'll add a few tests onto the original patch and resubmit it. | 15:06 |
| krotscheck | #action krotscheck Revisit link redirect patch and make it sane for login. | 15:06 |
| krotscheck | Any other urgent items? | 15:06 |
| yolanda | ok, maybe adding some exception for the auth ones? | 15:06 |
| krotscheck | yolanda: Yep, that's the idea. | 15:06 |
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| krotscheck | Alright, assuming no urgent items. | 15:07 |
| krotscheck | #topic User Feedback | 15:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "User Feedback (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 15:08 | |
| krotscheck | Anyone get any? | 15:08 |
| yolanda | nope | 15:08 |
| krotscheck | Alrightey | 15:09 |
| krotscheck | #topic In Progress (email) | 15:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "In Progress (email) (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 15:09 | |
| krotscheck | Righto.... | 15:09 |
| krotscheck | So a ton of email patches landed this morning, which I was _not_ expecting. | 15:09 |
| krotscheck | Leading to the above mentioned login bug. | 15:09 |
| ttx | krotscheck: I thought those were the reviews you were looking for | 15:09 |
| krotscheck | ttx: Well, yes, they were. | 15:10 |
| ttx | when you called for reviews earlier | 15:10 |
| krotscheck | ttx: But they've been languishing for so long that I'd almost given up hope :) | 15:10 |
| krotscheck | (After all, we still have infra-specs reviews from january) | 15:10 |
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| krotscheck | Anyway, I put in the remaining code pieces for single-event email workers, here: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/179542/ | 15:11 |
| krotscheck | I only put one of the text email templates into it, so that discussion can focus on the actual implementation of the event handling rather than the email templates themselves. | 15:13 |
| krotscheck | I will add additional templates in various other followup patches. | 15:13 |
| yolanda | checking | 15:13 |
| krotscheck | But with that patch, the remaining piece is to make sure everything is kosher with the puppet module. | 15:13 |
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| yolanda | krotscheck, any reason to have the template name on caps? | 15:14 |
| jeblair | whoah, landing those email patches was not cool | 15:14 |
| jeblair | i was patiently waiting for krotscheck to have a conversation with me about them | 15:15 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: I responded to your comments.... lemme check | 15:15 |
| jeblair | krotscheck: yeah, i wasn't around then | 15:15 |
| jeblair | i mean, i left my comments in februrary, and at krotscheck's request, waited two months for krotscheck to be ready to engage in a dialog | 15:15 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: lemme go look at the patch chain. | 15:15 |
| jeblair | it is not okay to just, while i am on a plane, leave some comments and then merge the series | 15:16 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: That was right around when mordred's thread on the viability of storyboard landed. | 15:16 |
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| jeblair | krotscheck: i do not think mordred's thread invalidates my concerns with those patches | 15:16 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: The comment I'm referring to was on April 28th. | 15:17 |
| krotscheck | That was 2 weeks ago. | 15:17 |
| krotscheck | For reference: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/151413/ | 15:17 |
| jeblair | krotscheck: i see that. i was traveling then. i expect that after waiting for two months for you to engage with me in a dialog, i could be given a more than a few days to respond. | 15:18 |
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| jeblair | krotscheck: i'm not upset with you, to be clear | 15:18 |
| jeblair | i believe that the patches should not have been merged | 15:18 |
| krotscheck | Well, I was waiting :) | 15:18 |
| krotscheck | Then ttx swoops in and +A's it | 15:18 |
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| krotscheck | And the entire chain came with it. | 15:18 |
| krotscheck | But with that in mind, removing the outbox patch that you had a specific issue with is actually fairly easily done. In the actual send worker patch, you can replace all instances of with get_outbox() as outbox: with get_sender as sender: | 15:19 |
| jeblair | generally when someone raises a substantial point on a -1 we wait until it has actually been resolved with the person who raised it | 15:19 |
| krotscheck | And, quite frankly, the more I worked on the problem the more I realized that the outbox piece was premature optimization. | 15:20 |
| ttx | I waited a few weeks and approved it | 15:20 |
| ttx | I thought the "better than nothing" argument wins | 15:20 |
| ttx | I'm fine with reverting though | 15:20 |
| jeblair | ttx: yeah, it would have been better to say "hey jeblair -- are you going to address krotscheck's points or should i just merge this?" | 15:20 |
| jeblair | communicating is always the right answer | 15:20 |
| ttx | right, my mistake | 15:21 |
| krotscheck | Ok, so here's a question. | 15:21 |
| * krotscheck gets away from the 'whodunnit' and gets back to the communicating about the code. | 15:21 | |
| ttx | My impression was taht this code was not used yet, so there was no permanent damage | 15:21 |
| krotscheck | It comes down to whether having an intermediary storage place for emails before they are sent is a thing we need. | 15:21 |
| krotscheck | My gut says it's premature optimization, but not necessarily bad. | 15:22 |
| krotscheck | Let's say we don't know where our sender is going. It could be exim, it could be mail.google.com, it could be exchange.... | 15:22 |
| jeblair | krotscheck: i have read your comment and i still believe you are over-engineering. everything you described is handled by an MTA. it is designed for reliable high-throughput high-concurrency activity. | 15:22 |
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| ttx | Also I misread the timeline there, thought it was one month ago | 15:23 |
| krotscheck | So for every single event that happens in StoryBoard, which "could" be many, we have two options. | 15:23 |
| ttx | not 3 days ago | 15:23 |
| krotscheck | Either 1: Send the email immediately, which incurs the connection overhead to our sender for every single email. | 15:24 |
| krotscheck | (which is small) | 15:24 |
| jeblair | (i measure it at 0.005 seconds) | 15:24 |
| krotscheck | (unless it's exchange, in which case *hand wavey*) | 15:24 |
| jeblair | it should never be exchange | 15:24 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: Infra isn't the only customer. | 15:25 |
| jeblair | and the reason i say that is that if you take on the responsibility of reliably talking to exchange, you are _really_ becoming an MTA | 15:25 |
| jeblair | krotscheck: exactly | 15:25 |
| jeblair | if you need to talk to exchange, then you need to run a local mta | 15:25 |
| jeblair | if you want to handle that directly in storyboard then you will need to implement all kinds of retry rules and queue expirations, etc. | 15:25 |
| jeblair | instead, just let an mta handle it. | 15:26 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: I get that. However at this time we're still discussing the need for an outbox, given a Sender Of Unknown Latency. | 15:26 |
| jeblair | what is a sender of unknown latency? | 15:26 |
| krotscheck | It is a sender that is abstracted behind get_sender(), which has a connection latency which we, as application developers, cannot reliably predict for every single install of storyboard in the wild. | 15:27 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: Can I finish explaining the cases before you jump into this argument? I promise I'll be fast. | 15:27 |
| jeblair | krotscheck: um. i don't know what i just did to make you ask me not to jump into an argument. | 15:28 |
| krotscheck | Case 2: Roll up all the emails into an outbox, and send them as a batch. | 15:28 |
| krotscheck | There. | 15:28 |
| krotscheck | Those are the two options under discussion right now. | 15:28 |
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| krotscheck | Now, jeblair's point is that the sender, in its little black box, will likely have a ridiculously small connection overhead, and therefore batching things is unecessary. | 15:29 |
| jeblair | krotscheck: have you reversed the meaning of "sender"? | 15:29 |
| krotscheck | The thing that sends the emails? | 15:29 |
| jeblair | krotscheck: right, storyboard. | 15:29 |
| krotscheck | The component of storyboard that actually accepts a message and ensures its delivery. | 15:30 |
| krotscheck | Better? | 15:30 |
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| krotscheck | (basically the get_sender() method. | 15:30 |
| krotscheck | The counterargument is that batching is good, and we cannot predict how long the latency of establishing a connection to send an email will be. | 15:30 |
| krotscheck | And, well, the latter argument has no data. | 15:31 |
| jeblair | krotscheck: yes, that is an excellent argument which is why i fully agree with you and therefore storyboard should require a local MTA in all installations. | 15:31 |
| jeblair | krotscheck: it should not, however, implement it itself. | 15:31 |
| jeblair | krotscheck: if then, because storyboard is installed at a site that uses exchange, that local MTA is configured to forward to exchange, that's fine. | 15:31 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: Dude. I agree with you. | 15:32 |
| krotscheck | But fact is that nobody who's contributing code to storyboard has the necessary expertise to put that together. | 15:32 |
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| krotscheck | So we're left with the hammer, and something that looks like a nail. | 15:33 |
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| jeblair | krotscheck: it's quite simpla and i'm happy to help with that | 15:33 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: Neat! | 15:34 |
| * krotscheck should have said that sentence in february | 15:34 | |
| jeblair | krotscheck: well, in februrary you said you wanted to finish this entire line of development before having a conversation about it | 15:34 |
| krotscheck | Ok, so to be clear. | 15:34 |
| krotscheck | Well, true. | 15:34 |
| krotscheck | my bad. | 15:34 |
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| krotscheck | even so, we're losing a single patch out of the entire chain. | 15:34 |
| * krotscheck doesn't think the rest of his implementation has a problem. | 15:35 | |
| krotscheck | (template rendering, gathering resources to render, etc etc) | 15:35 |
| jeblair | ok, i didn't look much past the first patch | 15:35 |
| jeblair | yeah, sounds like that's the case | 15:35 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: Oh! | 15:35 |
| krotscheck | Alrighty then, how about I give a quick overview of how all the things work. | 15:36 |
| jeblair | sure | 15:36 |
| ttx | so shall we revert my misstep ? | 15:38 |
| ttx | or try to fix it and keep most of what landed in the patch chain ? | 15:38 |
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| krotscheck | ttx: Yes. Since I understand the code well enough I can switch the outbox code to use get_sender instead. | 15:38 |
| krotscheck | That last patch didn't land | 15:39 |
| krotscheck | But on to my explanation.... | 15:39 |
| krotscheck | The basic logic for the non-digest worker is that it receives an event from the API (Worker plugin framework), figures out who subscribed to it (subscription api), determines whether that person wants email (user preference api), resolves the necessary resources (DB session persistence courtesy of NikitaKonovalov), and then chooses a template from a URL pattern ({resourcename} | 15:39 |
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| krotscheck | The resource pattern is storyboard/email/templates/{{resourcename}}/{{HTTP_ACTION}}(_subject)?.(txt|html) | 15:39 |
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| krotscheck | It requires at least a subject template and a text template, but will also look for an html template. | 15:40 |
| krotscheck | It uses jinja2 to render those templates, builds a message, and passes it to the (outbox|sender) | 15:40 |
| krotscheck | The batching happens because each event may have N subscribers, so that's in a loop. | 15:41 |
| krotscheck | Anyway, that's the gist. | 15:41 |
| krotscheck | #action krotscheck Make storyboard use outbox instead of sender. | 15:41 |
| jeblair | okay, yeah that all makes sense; i think we can fix the plumbing around that | 15:41 |
| krotscheck | Oops | 15:41 |
| krotscheck | #action krotscheck Ignore previous action, use sender instead of outbox. | 15:42 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: So what piece will you provide? | 15:42 |
| jeblair | krotscheck: i will not be able to do anything until after the summit. it is a very busy time for me. | 15:43 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: I get that much. | 15:43 |
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| * krotscheck is likely swamped as well | 15:43 | |
| krotscheck | jeblair: I just want to get the actual task into place. | 15:43 |
| krotscheck | I'm guessing it's mainly puppet work, plus some additions to storyboard's documentation? | 15:44 |
| jeblair | no puppet work should be necessary; there's already an MTA in place; so yeah, probably just the outbox/sender switch you mentioned and doc work | 15:44 |
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| krotscheck | I'm guessing that ptyhon's email library already knows how to talk to a local mta? | 15:45 |
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| krotscheck | The puppet module is the one I'm a little worried about, because I'd like that to install a fully functional piece. | 15:47 |
| jeblair | krotscheck: we install a working exim that delivers to the internet with our puppet | 15:47 |
| jeblair | i'm not certain that we should consider mta configuration in scope for puppet-storyboard | 15:47 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: StoryBoard's puppet will need to know how to do that. | 15:47 |
| jeblair | i would expect most sysadmins to want to be able to configure their mta of preference | 15:48 |
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| jeblair | the mta won't need any storyboard-specific configuration, it just needs a site-appropriate configuration | 15:48 |
| * krotscheck pondres this | 15:49 | |
| krotscheck | Ok, let me get back to you on whether I want that in the puppet module. | 15:49 |
| jeblair | (our "site-appropriate" config is "just deliver to the durn internet"; others might be "smarthost to our exchange server") | 15:49 |
| jeblair | krotscheck: ok, happy to discuss further | 15:49 |
| krotscheck | I'm trying to figure out what the userbase is going to be. Whether we're only-sysadmins or whether there's a "Hey we want joe random to install this on his home box" | 15:49 |
| krotscheck | I suspect that it's going to be the latter.... until someone decides to do a cheap Storyboard-as-a-Service and then suddenly it's only sysadmins again | 15:50 |
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| krotscheck | Aaaanyway | 15:50 |
| krotscheck | #action jeblair add references to exim configuration to storyboard docs. | 15:50 |
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| krotscheck | (or should that be mta) | 15:51 |
| krotscheck | Anywa | 15:51 |
| krotscheck | Are there any other points on Email right now? | 15:51 |
| jeblair | nak | 15:51 |
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| krotscheck | Alrightey. | 15:52 |
| krotscheck | #topic Discussion Topics (vancouver) | 15:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Discussion Topics (vancouver) (Meeting topic: StoryBoard)" | 15:52 | |
| krotscheck | We've got 8 minutes. | 15:52 |
| krotscheck | Also, no meeting next week! | 15:52 |
| krotscheck | #action Krotscheck Send no meeting announcement. | 15:52 |
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| yolanda | i'm finishing my sb slides now | 15:54 |
| yolanda | i'll send to ttx and krostcheck for review | 15:54 |
| yolanda | just short 10 minutes session | 15:54 |
| krotscheck | Yay! | 15:55 |
| jeblair | #link http://libertydesignsummit.sched.org/event/6dac7819d75ce432ecacca66010e3280#.VVDHY-SVtpg | 15:55 |
| krotscheck | jeblair: Neat! | 15:56 |
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| krotscheck | One question- in my discussions with mordred, he mentioned that some pressure was coming from working groups and the board. How do we make sure those individuals are represented? | 15:56 |
| jeblair | yeah, i hope we'll talk about mordred's email and come out of there with a direction | 15:56 |
| krotscheck | Right now they are really just "vague THEM!" | 15:57 |
| mordred | krotscheck: I'll try to get the to come to the session | 15:57 |
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| krotscheck | mordred: Thanks. I'll come to the board meeting sunday too, see if I can talk to them :) | 15:57 |
| mordred | krotscheck: and, once I've informed them that it exists, if they do not come and express themselves, they can live with our decisions, whichever they may be | 15:57 |
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| krotscheck | That's what I'm hoping for :) | 15:58 |
| krotscheck | Ok, thanks everyone! | 15:58 |
| krotscheck | #endmeeting | 15:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:58 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Mon May 11 15:58:18 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:58 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/storyboard/2015/storyboard.2015-05-11-15.00.html | 15:58 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/storyboard/2015/storyboard.2015-05-11-15.00.txt | 15:58 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/storyboard/2015/storyboard.2015-05-11-15.00.log.html | 15:58 |
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