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| ttx | o/ | 14:00 |
|---|---|---|
| alexismonville | hello :) | 14:00 |
| * fungi smells a meeting | 14:00 | |
| gothicmindfood | ohhai | 14:01 |
| gothicmindfood | sorry, I went to the wrong channel | 14:01 |
| * persia watches | 14:01 | |
| EmilienM | bonjour :-) | 14:01 |
| gothicmindfood | #startmeeting openstack-swg | 14:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Dec 8 14:01:59 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is gothicmindfood. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:02 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: openstack-swg)" | 14:02 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_swg' | 14:02 |
| * gothicmindfood needs to get her irssi windows memorized better | 14:02 | |
| gothicmindfood | anyhoo | 14:02 |
| gothicmindfood | #agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/SWGMeeting | 14:02 |
| * jroll moves over here | 14:03 | |
| gothicmindfood | I'll do a reping | 14:03 |
| gothicmindfood | amrith, dhellmann, gothicmindfood, ttx, jroll, johnthetubaguy, sdague, mordred, carolbarrett, nikhil, mugsie, thingee, alexismonville, edleafe, EmilienM, harlowja, devananda, bastafidli | 14:03 |
| gothicmindfood | #topic Review/recap action items | 14:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review/recap action items (Meeting topic: openstack-swg)" | 14:04 | |
| ttx | livefixing startmeeting stanza: https://review.openstack.org/408633 | 14:04 |
| * EmilienM is dancing for his first swg meeting :-) | 14:04 | |
| alexismonville | :) | 14:04 |
| gothicmindfood | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_swg/2016/openstack_swg.2016-11-08-15.04.html | 14:04 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: oh yeah, thanks! | 14:04 |
| gothicmindfood | I was going to bring that up in open discussion | 14:05 |
| gothicmindfood | things are a bit disorganized in our logs because of inconsistency | 14:05 |
| gothicmindfood | welcome EmilienM :) | 14:05 |
| gothicmindfood | so I had all sorts of fun action items | 14:05 |
| gothicmindfood | go me | 14:05 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: had one | 14:06 |
| gothicmindfood | and amrith had another, which was to change this meeting time and he already did that. | 14:06 |
| * gothicmindfood high fives amrith | 14:06 | |
| fungi | i could probably stream-edit the old logs on disk and them move them to a consistent directory, but that breaks any logs/minutes anyone might have linked to elsewhere (e.g., mailing list posts, et cetera) | 14:06 |
| ttx | Haven't collected my thoughts on that one yet. I consider it non-urgent though, more of a long-term discussion | 14:06 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: no worries! that looks like a long-term project | 14:06 |
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| gothicmindfood | ttx: does it help to keep it as an action for the next meeting? Or do we want to maybe track it somewhere else/the vision doc for the PTG/etc? | 14:07 |
| ttx | One thing we should discuss however is how to retrofit johnthetubaguy's visioning into this group activity | 14:07 |
| gothicmindfood | agreed - I was planning on that for open discussion | 14:07 |
| ttx | gothicmindfood: probably better to track it elswhere | 14:07 |
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| persia | Formal agendas are good :) | 14:07 |
| gothicmindfood | I can move through my stuff pretty quickly, so I'll get going :) | 14:07 |
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| gothicmindfood | so - I'll do my "Send a note to the ML about the SWG" | 14:08 |
| gothicmindfood | that is here now: | 14:09 |
| gothicmindfood | #link http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2016-November/107712.html | 14:09 |
| gothicmindfood | there were zero responses | 14:09 |
| gothicmindfood | which was a little sad | 14:09 |
| gothicmindfood | but maybe that just means I'm really good at explaining things? | 14:09 |
| gothicmindfood | I'd love it, though, if folks from the group can chime in with their thoughts on the ML | 14:09 |
| gothicmindfood | any thoughts? | 14:10 |
| gothicmindfood | it was also pretty close to Thanksgiving, so it might've been lost in vacation for US folks | 14:10 |
| alexismonville | ok, we could define on what aspect we want to foster the conversation ? | 14:10 |
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| gothicmindfood | alexismonville: one productive direction might be to latch onto what you think we should accomplish in the next 6 or so months? | 14:11 |
| gothicmindfood | I'd love to start a ML discussion on what people perceive the needs to be in the community around these themes | 14:11 |
| ttx | I think we can't explain much more... we should focus on getting something visible done | 14:11 |
| ttx | so that we can point back to it to illustrate how useful the SWG is | 14:12 |
| alexismonville | the draft of the vision that is announce in the email? | 14:12 |
| fungi | we've certainly got some hard conversations the tc is raising, so maybe those fit into the set of "sorts of things [we'd] like to see tackled" | 14:12 |
| ttx | yeah, that sounds like a good visible thing | 14:12 |
| gothicmindfood | fungi: yeah, I mean, part of "getting things done" feels more like fostering conversations that wouldn't happen otherwise, and less "here is a document" sometimes | 14:12 |
| gothicmindfood | (not all the time, but sometimes) | 14:12 |
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| ttx | the principles and goals initiatives were not really SWG byproducts, more of a consequence of the training discussion | 14:13 |
| ttx | (which is good, but doesn't help "selling" the SWG | 14:14 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: do you want to bring up the vision in the ML thread? | 14:14 |
| ttx | I can reply to thread and tie the visioning to the group yes | 14:14 |
| gothicmindfood | that'd be great | 14:14 |
| gothicmindfood | anyone else have ideas for where that thread might want to go to start a larger discussion? | 14:14 |
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| ttx | action me on that. Happy to leave it to johnthetubaguy if he wants it, since he started it | 14:14 |
| gothicmindfood | #action ttx or johnthetubaguy to reply to [swg] thread on mailing list with conversation about TC vision | 14:15 |
| gothicmindfood | cool | 14:15 |
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| ttx | I'll do it tomorrow unless he beats me to it | 14:15 |
| alexismonville | I would like to hear what EmilienM has to say as a new TC member :) | 14:15 |
| ttx | yes, that would be nice. Like how it is compared to how he thought it would be | 14:16 |
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| gothicmindfood | EmilienM: we'd love to hear from you on what you think the SWG can do! | 14:16 |
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| ttx | (Emilien volunteered to drive eth Pike goals initiative, which is good trial by fire too) | 14:17 |
| gothicmindfood | oooh, fun | 14:17 |
| ttx | gothicmindfood: sshh. Don't discourage him yet | 14:17 |
| EmilienM | yes I'm on travel this week but back home next week, i'll continue the work | 14:17 |
| gothicmindfood | that actually dovetails nicely into my next item, which is TC members/more leadership training dates | 14:17 |
| fungi | tc members already seem well-placed to initiate "difficult conversations" so perhaps the swg is in a better position to help those outside leadership positions to be able to do the same? | 14:17 |
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| EmilienM | ttx: good luck to discourage me. | 14:17 |
| gothicmindfood | fungi: they might be well placed, but they often don't manage to always do it | 14:18 |
| gothicmindfood | fungi: and sometimes that's just because there's not a shared language around it | 14:18 |
| gothicmindfood | fungi: and sometimes that's for other reasons | 14:18 |
| fungi | at least i'm certainly not one to shy away from raising difficult issues. the bigger problem there is that it can be hard to get anyone else to engage in other sides of the conversation | 14:18 |
| ttx | fungi: yeah, I don't see the SWG really help the TC having discussion. Once it is raised at TC level we usually do a good job at addressing it. It's before and below that I think the SWG is most useful | 14:18 |
| ttx | Like identifying stuff we should be discussing, helping others having discussions, and providing tools | 14:19 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: ++ | 14:19 |
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| gothicmindfood | okay - so I was able to contact folks new to the TC and folks in the TC who haven't attended leadership training yet | 14:19 |
| ttx | the principles stuff for example is a good example of something we should have been discussing earlier | 14:19 |
| persia | Would it also be useful to indicate that those not on the TC who may not think the issue is ready to raise to the TC are welcome to suggest the issue to the SWG? | 14:19 |
| ttx | the longer we waited, the more difficult it was to write | 14:20 |
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| ttx | "Office hours for questions on leadership" | 14:20 |
| fungi | persia: maybe, though i also wouldn't want people to get the impression that the tc or its members are unapproachable | 14:20 |
| gothicmindfood | persia: I think anyone can bring anything to the TC they want, but the SWG might stand in as an interpreter of items getting raised to help identify the themes around some of the issues and maybe the broader conversation that needs to hapen? | 14:20 |
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| alexismonville | ttx +1 on office hours | 14:21 |
| EmilienM | alexismonville: you want my feedback about my first days as a TC member? | 14:21 |
| persia | Absolutely. The narrative of unapproachability is already too string. | 14:21 |
| gothicmindfood | persia: I don't see us as being some kind of intermediary for TC agenda items :) | 14:21 |
| persia | s/string/strong/ | 14:21 |
| alexismonville | EmilienM: yes | 14:21 |
| EmilienM | http://my1.fr/files/emilien-right-now.jpg | 14:21 |
| gothicmindfood | EmilienM: :) | 14:21 |
| persia | gothicmindfood: I was also thinking of expanding/exploring things for presentation, or facilitating raising the point. | 14:21 |
| gothicmindfood | so - re: leadership training at ZingTrain - we're looking at the week of April 10th | 14:22 |
| EmilienM | alexismonville: I notice the TC meetings are quite difficult to follow and participate as a non-native english speaker | 14:22 |
| gothicmindfood | dhellmann: ttx - I know we three in particular discussed the idea of having at least one person who was present at the last training present at the new one | 14:22 |
| alexismonville | EmilienM: why are they difficult to follow specifically? | 14:22 |
| EmilienM | it has nothing to do with TC org itself, but the way we do meetings might be revisited sometimes | 14:22 |
| alexismonville | EmilienM: what could be the suggestions to make? | 14:23 |
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| gothicmindfood | dhellmann: ttx - how does the week of April 10 look for you? | 14:23 |
| EmilienM | alexismonville: the one from Tuesday was really hard, because of the high flow | 14:23 |
| EmilienM | alexismonville: a lot of thoughts in the same time, quite hard to comment / express / give feedback on IRC during one hour | 14:24 |
| jroll | gothicmindfood: I'm happy to do that if nobody else wants to, given it's easy travel for me - otherwise I'll come meet up for dinner :P | 14:24 |
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| gothicmindfood | jroll: ah cool, \o/ for not having to take a plane there :) | 14:24 |
| jroll | \o/ indeed! | 14:24 |
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| EmilienM | alexismonville: other than meetings, a lot of positive things, like being able to give +2 on governance decision after thinking about it (outside a meeting ;-)) | 14:25 |
| gothicmindfood | alexismonville: persia - are either of you interested in attending a leadership training the week of April 10? | 14:26 |
| * gothicmindfood already checked with fungi and EmilienM | 14:26 | |
| fungi | EmilienM: yeah, i think an unanticipated downside to explicit voicing in the discussion is that everyone queued up their positions and blasted them into the channel when their turn came around. as a native english speaker even i have trouble reading that fast | 14:26 |
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| persia | gothicmindfood: I can let you know by end-of-day. I don't have an answer now. | 14:26 |
| EmilienM | gothicmindfood: yes, I checked with management, and I'm 99% sure to come. I'll confirm with you asap next week | 14:26 |
| gothicmindfood | #action gothicmindfood to poll #openstack-swg channel on leadership training dates | 14:26 |
| alexismonville | I am interested | 14:26 |
| gothicmindfood | EmilienM: sounds good! | 14:26 |
| * EmilienM will bring canadian mapple sirup | 14:27 | |
| gothicmindfood | Where the date stands, btw: I have two separate weeks held with ZingTrain and will be checking in with the foundation on funding and their attendance this week | 14:27 |
| flaper87 | gothicmindfood: will it be the same training ? | 14:27 |
| gothicmindfood | flaper87: it will! | 14:27 |
| gothicmindfood | flaper87: except different people, so probably will feel a bit different, I'm sure | 14:27 |
| alexismonville | gothicmindfood: please avoid the spring break week :) | 14:27 |
| flaper87 | gothicmindfood: gotcha, will that target still be the entire TC team ? | 14:28 |
| alexismonville | April 17 | 14:28 |
| gothicmindfood | alexismonville: yeah, everyone has different spring breaks across the country | 14:28 |
| flaper87 | gothicmindfood: and across the world :P | 14:28 |
| gothicmindfood | the week of April 17 was most people's, which is why I'm pushing for April 10th | 14:28 |
| jroll | spring break is a great time to be in michigan, everybody vacates to florida | 14:28 |
| * alexismonville was not aware that it was different dates in the US | 14:28 | |
| alexismonville | gothicmindfood: cool | 14:29 |
| fungi | schools and school systems all decide for themselves | 14:29 |
| fungi | it's pretty chaotic | 14:29 |
| gothicmindfood | flaper87: right now the target is TC members who haven't gone, and others who are interested. And I'm very open to suggestions on targets for recruiting | 14:29 |
| * gothicmindfood is thinking user committee and board members | 14:29 | |
| EmilienM | gothicmindfood: do we have some documentation / website about that training? (like some sort of agenda, etc) | 14:29 |
| fungi | as someone who lives in a spring break destination, we have a mini tourist season here that stretches for a month or so | 14:29 |
| flaper87 | gothicmindfood: I was actually going to suggest that target so ++ | 14:29 |
| gothicmindfood | and one product working group member | 14:29 |
| gothicmindfood | EmilienM: it's an amalgamation of a couple of the trainings that ZingTrain offers - I sort of worked with them for a few months to design it specifically for OpenStack | 14:30 |
| gothicmindfood | EmilienM: https://www.zingtrain.com/our-seminars/leading-with-zing | 14:30 |
| gothicmindfood | and https://www.zingtrain.com/our-seminars/managing-ourselves | 14:30 |
| alexismonville | gothicmindfood: I don't remember the cost of the training | 14:30 |
| EmilienM | fungi: i'm not really concerned about "/me not being able yet to be productive during TC meetings" as I consider meetings a sync process. I personally consider more important async tasks, like Gerrit reviews and ML decisions. | 14:31 |
| EmilienM | gothicmindfood: thank you | 14:31 |
| gothicmindfood | and cost will (hopefully, still confirming) be covered by the Foundation, so attendees only need to cover their travel costs | 14:31 |
| fungi | EmilienM: i completely agree with that viewpoint | 14:31 |
| alexismonville | gothicmindfood: great :) | 14:31 |
| ttx | sorry got sidetracked, reading scrollback | 14:31 |
| flaper87 | fwiw, the feedback after last year's training was that it was useful. That was my feeling as well and I'd recommend it | 14:32 |
| flaper87 | fungi: EmilienM ++ | 14:32 |
| * edleafe wanders in late | 14:32 | |
| jroll | flaper87: +1 | 14:32 |
| * ttx looks up APril calendar | 14:32 | |
| flaper87 | I'm not new in the TC already but I remember when I started as if it was yday | 14:32 |
| flaper87 | so, I'm happy to talk about it and provide feedback | 14:32 |
| fungi | i have an extreme distrust in "leadership seminars" on the whole, but i trust gothicmindfood so i'll be there ;) | 14:33 |
| jroll | fungi: I do too, and found this one super valuable | 14:33 |
| gothicmindfood | fungi: hahah. So much pressure! but I think you might actually enjoy it | 14:33 |
| gothicmindfood | I have more confidence in it now that I've taken a group through it | 14:33 |
| ttx | April 10 week still open for me, but might close if I organize personal vacation. So no commitment yet | 14:33 |
| fungi | i'm familiar with too many which are fronts for brainwashing ponzi schemes | 14:34 |
| gothicmindfood | okay - my *last* action item for this meeting was "drive the creation of a list of deliverables for PTG" | 14:34 |
| gothicmindfood | which i chose to do by starting the outline of a vision for the PTG for us | 14:34 |
| gothicmindfood | it's... kind of short and sad right now, which has everything to do with my current performance schedule and nothing to do with how excited I am for the PTG :) | 14:35 |
| gothicmindfood | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/AtlantaPTG-SWG | 14:35 |
| gothicmindfood | I invite folks to take a look there | 14:35 |
| gothicmindfood | I'll also post in the -swg channel so we can do edits between now and the next SWG meteing | 14:35 |
| gothicmindfood | we're entering holiday season, but do we think it's possible, given async contributions on that document, to get something we can feel excited about by our first meeting in January? | 14:36 |
| gothicmindfood | I'd love to give ourselves two months of prep working around a vision to plan and make the sessions great (including recruiting and driving ML activity prior) | 14:37 |
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| ttx | only two months away ? Oh god | 14:37 |
| EmilienM | what is the intent behing mesure targets for diversity? | 14:37 |
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| jroll | ttx++ | 14:37 |
| gothicmindfood | well, post-December | 14:38 |
| gothicmindfood | EmilienM: I mean diverse project representation | 14:38 |
| EmilienM | some project are single vendor, we know that already. | 14:38 |
| gothicmindfood | which is basically going for bringing in all sorts of different project perspectives | 14:38 |
| EmilienM | oh ok | 14:38 |
| * alexismonville ttx realize... honey, I shrink the release cycle :p | 14:38 | |
| gothicmindfood | EmilienM: and I'm not even sure it matters, which is why I asked there | 14:38 |
| gothicmindfood | I'm super open to input | 14:38 |
| gothicmindfood | we went with numbers for our Barcelona vision, so really I'm just wondering if we want to measure anything else based on types of attendee? | 14:39 |
| alexismonville | I think that representation from projects is something importnat to trakc | 14:39 |
| alexismonville | it will "force" us to encourage people from the different projects to joiun | 14:39 |
| EmilienM | gothicmindfood: indeed, we might be interested to know which projects in OpenStack have PTG sessions and collect some outputs (number of sessions, blueprints, topics, people, etc) | 14:39 |
| gothicmindfood | I also think representation from projects could lead to the nice "vision" of the SWG that ttx outlayed above - having a place to help facilitate conversations with the TC that increases communication between the TC and the rest of OpenStack | 14:41 |
| EmilienM | it might help in understanding how OpenStack is progressing, etc, somehow | 14:41 |
| fungi | EmilienM: that may also depend on the level of formality each team decides to apply to their time during the ptg | 14:41 |
| EmilienM | fungi: that is true | 14:41 |
| fungi | it's still unclear to me the extent to which we should expect to adhere to any formal agenda | 14:41 |
| fungi | (in planning for the infra team specifically, i mean) | 14:42 |
| gothicmindfood | fungi: given that level of formality-in-flux, do you think it's worthwhile for the SWG to plan on any informal reaching-out to teams there? and if so, what might that look like? | 14:42 |
| fungi | many teams may opt for unconference-style pitches the first morning, so be showing up with no pre-agreed-upon agenda at all | 14:42 |
| * gothicmindfood is very keen on diversifying our vision from just "we did these sessions" | 14:42 | |
| fungi | maybe it would help to get some community-wide discussions going about how different teams plan to organize )or not) their days | 14:43 |
| ttx | I'll admit I have limited time to dedicate to SWG activities with the PTG organization and all the things we usually do in 6 months to be done in 4.5 | 14:44 |
| EmilienM | fungi: as a PTL, I plan to prepare a rough agenda of our sessions. | 14:44 |
| ttx | shoudl be better in Pike ! | 14:44 |
| fungi | sharing ideas, for the benefit of teams who may not know what they want to do and are looking to others for suggestions | 14:44 |
| jroll | I plan to treat it like a midcycle, fwiw, a few set topics (priorites) and unconference for much of it | 14:44 |
| gothicmindfood | fungi: yeah, probably. Hm. Should we do another ML thread devoted to that discussion? Or leave it to a [tc] led discussion, or ptl discussion, and just chime in there? | 14:44 |
| EmilienM | fungi: specially as we are creating TripleO squads, I might expect to have multiple TripleO tracks in same time, so agenda will be useful :-) | 14:44 |
| fungi | for infra, and i know we're a little different (isn't every team?), i expect there will be subgroups of us working on lots of different things in parallel and floating back and forth fluidly as required | 14:45 |
| EmilienM | jroll: yes, preparing topics before PTG sounds great | 14:45 |
| ttx | yeah, I think it's a safe bet to consider it a midcycle on steroids, with the ability to plug other people in and to attend extra things | 14:45 |
| EmilienM | fungi: yeah, I've noticed infra sessions work very well like that | 14:45 |
| gothicmindfood | the PTG sounds way more fun now :) | 14:46 |
| gothicmindfood | I'd like to table this to move onto a quick discussion of johnthetubaguy 's vision, if y'all don't mind. We can continue this in the etherpad vision/ -swg channel and ML | 14:46 |
| fungi | but also we tend to send emissaries out to other teams' spaces to help them with infra-specific bits of their initiatives too | 14:46 |
| gothicmindfood | #topic Discuss TC vision document | 14:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Discuss TC vision document (Meeting topic: openstack-swg)" | 14:47 | |
| fungi | or at least that's how we structured our involvement during past summits so i expect things will sort of happen similarly in this context | 14:47 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: dyou have a link on you? | 14:47 |
| * gothicmindfood fishes in the -swg channel | 14:47 | |
| ttx | hmm | 14:47 |
| ttx | I have that | 14:48 |
| gothicmindfood | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/401225/ | 14:48 |
| ttx | * Add a draft TC vision structure [https://review.openstack.org/401225] | 14:48 |
| ttx | * Add a draft OpenStack technical vision [https://review.openstack.org/401226] | 14:48 |
| gothicmindfood | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/401226/ | 14:48 |
| gothicmindfood | awesome | 14:48 |
| gothicmindfood | johnthetubaguy: you around? | 14:48 |
| persia | I heard a rumour he was taking the week for personal activities. | 14:49 |
| fungi | yeah, he e-mailed the tc ml | 14:49 |
| fungi | he's otherwise occupied | 14:49 |
| gothicmindfood | ah, it is the vacation time of year :) | 14:50 |
| gothicmindfood | well, we can certainly have a quick cover of what's been going on with this and table further discussion til he's back | 14:50 |
| gothicmindfood | one of the things that came up was that it's sort of a "motion to describe what a vision is" rather than a vision itself... he's basically laying the groundwork for the vision. | 14:51 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: has there been discussion about this yet at TC meetings? | 14:51 |
| * gothicmindfood has been stuck in rehearsals for the last few tuesdays so has had to miss them | 14:51 | |
| ttx | yes there was | 14:51 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: what's the movement there right now? | 14:51 |
| ttx | the conclusion was that we should reboot the effort of building a vision, through the SWG group | 14:51 |
| gothicmindfood | oh fun | 14:52 |
| ttx | rather than iterate on review | 14:52 |
| gothicmindfood | ;) | 14:52 |
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| gothicmindfood | so it looks like we might have our first project, y'all | 14:52 |
| ttx | because it was unlikely to get anywhere fast. An etherpad was deemed a better solution to iterate fast on prose | 14:52 |
| ttx | let me fetch meeting slogs for ya | 14:52 |
| ttx | http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2016/tc.2016-11-29-20.01.log.html#l-239 | 14:53 |
| ttx | we also said we should work on TC vision before OpenStack vision, as it's simpler | 14:53 |
| fungi | presumably we'll just cram his draft change into an etherpad, hack it to bits, and then push the result up as a new patchset | 14:53 |
| ttx | and part of the TC vision can be to get an OpenStack vision developed | 14:53 |
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| ttx | fungi: ++ | 14:54 |
| jroll | fungi: ++ | 14:54 |
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| ttx | I think we also need to bootstrap the "visioning" exercise by setting a target vision date etc | 14:54 |
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| ttx | things that were not really discussed on the review at all because it wasn't formulated as a vision but more as a set of topics to address through a vision | 14:55 |
| jroll | I quite like the march 2018 date john used here | 14:56 |
| ttx | I think 18 months / 2 years is a good timeframe for a TC vision | 14:56 |
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| ttx | We know there are a number of changes we need to navigate in that timeframe | 14:56 |
| gothicmindfood | ttx: do you see the OpenStack vision covering a longer timeframe than that? | 14:56 |
| alexismonville | I agree with the 18-24 month, with intermediate results | 14:56 |
| *** galstrom is now known as galstrom_zzz | 14:56 | |
| ttx | March 2018 is on the short end of it, but works | 14:56 |
| ttx | Sept 2018 would work as well | 14:57 |
| jroll | agree | 14:57 |
| gothicmindfood | I think I'd be more comfortable with September. I'm also curious how long it will take to work in user committee and board feedback to a document | 14:57 |
| jroll | and if the goal is to finish this by end of PTG, march 18 is actually a bit short | 14:58 |
| ttx | Sept 2018 / by that time we would have had 3 PTGs and prepare for the 4th | 14:58 |
| alexismonville | so we could need to timebox the exercize? | 14:58 |
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| ttx | Yeah, I think Sept 2018 is better because it will take us a few months to get there | 14:58 |
| gothicmindfood | alexismonville: we absolutely should set a date for when we'll have a draft for community review, and then a final document | 14:58 |
| gothicmindfood | okay | 14:58 |
| flaper87 | ttx: ++ | 14:59 |
| gothicmindfood | this is pretty cool, I'm really excited that the TC and johnthetubaguy have started all of this and that we get to participate | 14:59 |
| ttx | and then a one-year horizon between vision-defined and vision-complete is /very/ short:) | 14:59 |
| EmilienM | does a document like this can really be final? | 14:59 |
| jroll | gothicmindfood: ++ | 14:59 |
| gothicmindfood | we have 60 seconds left, but I'd love to chat in #openstack-swg about this for a bit longer if you all have time | 14:59 |
| alexismonville | and we could encourage people to schedule 3 times 30 minutes in their calendar to work on that? | 14:59 |
| persia | EmilienM: It can be posted as authoritative, subject to modification by empowered bodies. | 14:59 |
| gothicmindfood | otherwise, there's our nice little PTG etherpad we can write in until our next meeting | 14:59 |
| gothicmindfood | :) | 14:59 |
| ttx | EmilienM: It's an exercise in describing a potential future, not an evolving roadmap | 14:59 |
| EmilienM | ttx: fair enough | 15:00 |
| ttx | (it's new for me too) | 15:00 |
| gothicmindfood | thanks so much for attending everyone! | 15:00 |
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| gothicmindfood | #endmeeting | 15:00 |
| jroll | EmilienM: it's "this is where we want to get to", which helps define some of our actions on that path, even if we don't make it | 15:00 |
| alexismonville | thanks :) | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Dec 8 15:00:28 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:00 |
| jroll | thanks gothicmindfood :) | 15:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_swg/2016/openstack_swg.2016-12-08-14.01.html | 15:00 |
| *** janzian has joined #openstack-meeting-3 | 15:00 | |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_swg/2016/openstack_swg.2016-12-08-14.01.txt | 15:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_swg/2016/openstack_swg.2016-12-08-14.01.log.html | 15:00 |
| ttx | EmilienM: it's a thing you can use to weigh your decisions along the way | 15:00 |
| mlavalle | #startmeeting neutron_l3 | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Dec 8 15:00:54 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mlavalle. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'neutron_l3' | 15:00 |
| mlavalle | Hi, who is here for the L3 sub-team meeting? | 15:01 |
| john-davidge | o/ | 15:01 |
| janzian | o/ | 15:01 |
| baoli | Hi | 15:01 |
| * edleafe lurks in the shadows | 15:01 | |
| haleyb | hi | 15:01 |
| mlavalle | Nice day to all of you! | 15:02 |
| mlavalle | #topic Announcements | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:02 | |
| mlavalle | Believe it or not, Ocata-2 is almost here: | 15:02 |
| mlavalle | #link https://releases.openstack.org/ocata/schedule.html | 15:03 |
| mlavalle | And the Ocata-3 will be just 5 weeks afterwards. So, keep an eye on your commited deliverables | 15:04 |
| *** psachin has quit IRC | 15:04 | |
| mlavalle | A reminder also to the team regarding the upcoming PTG, February 20th - 24th: | 15:05 |
| mlavalle | #link https://www.openstack.org/ptg/ | 15:05 |
| mlavalle | I checked half an hour ago, and there are 298 seats left | 15:05 |
| mlavalle | And finally, mlavalle completed his move to the Austin area yesterday.... :-) | 15:06 |
| john-davidge | mlavalle: Congrats! | 15:06 |
| janzian | Welcome to Austin! | 15:07 |
| *** rbak has joined #openstack-meeting-3 | 15:07 | |
| mlavalle | Still leaving surrounded by boxes, though ;-) | 15:07 |
| mlavalle | living^^^^ | 15:07 |
| edleafe | san antonio misses you already! | 15:07 |
| mlavalle | edleafe: LOL | 15:07 |
| mlavalle | Any other annoucements from the team? | 15:07 |
| mlavalle | Ok, let's move on | 15:08 |
| mlavalle | #Topic Bugs | 15:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Bugs (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:08 | |
| mlavalle | First one is https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1570122 | 15:09 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1570122 in neutron "ipv6 prefix delegated subnets are not accessable external of the router they are attached." [High,In progress] - Assigned to John Davidge (john-davidge) | 15:09 |
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| mlavalle | john-davidge: you got a question from the reporter on how to deploy / test the fix. Did you see it? | 15:10 |
| john-davidge | mlavalle: There's a WIP patch here: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/407025 - which has already been tested by promethianfire. An issue with it using the wrong device-id has been uncovered, I'll have a fix up shortly | 15:10 |
| mlavalle | is promethianfire the reporter? | 15:11 |
| john-davidge | mlavalle: Yes, ended up responding to him privately, will post on LP as well | 15:11 |
| mlavalle | ok, cool. THanks for the fix and the update | 15:11 |
| john-davidge | mlavalle: Yes he is | 15:11 |
| mlavalle | :-) | 15:11 |
| mlavalle | Next one is https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1627424 | 15:12 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1627424 in neutron "FlushError on IPAllocation" [High,Confirmed] - Assigned to Miguel Lavalle (minsel) | 15:12 |
| mlavalle | I've been looking at this one since yesterday. I just assigned it to myself. Analyzed some of the tracebacks we are seeing in the Neutron server logs | 15:13 |
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| mlavalle | And found a reference in the SQLAlchemy docs to the specific exception. I posted a pointer to the relevant piece of doc in the bug | 15:14 |
| mlavalle | Does anybody have any additional insight or comment? | 15:15 |
| lcastell | hey r1chardj0n3s forgot to ask yesterday about the search-first stuff for user listings... is it the same as the "filter first" I did for other pages? | 15:15 |
| mlavalle | lcastell: You might be in the wrong room. This is the Neutron l3 subteam meeting | 15:16 |
| lcastell | sorry yep | 15:16 |
| lcastell | I was reading the logs here :P... my bad | 15:16 |
| mlavalle | lcastell: np | 15:17 |
| mlavalle | ok, moving on to the next bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1627480 | 15:17 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1627480 in neutron "create_port can succeed without returning fixed_ips on all requested subnets" [High,Confirmed] | 15:17 |
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| mlavalle | This one has not an owner. It is next in my list / backlog after the previous one. If someone wants to wrestle it out of my hands, please go ahead | 15:18 |
| mlavalle | Ok, next one is https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1627902 | 15:19 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1627902 in neutron "DHCP agent conflicting with dynamic IPv6 addresses" [High,In progress] - Assigned to Brian Haley (brian-haley) | 15:19 |
| mlavalle | haleyb has a fix in progress for it, any comments? | 15:19 |
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| haleyb | re-fix is up for review, just had to add a release note to appease the review gods | 15:20 |
| haleyb | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/406428/ | 15:20 |
| mlavalle | yeah, I saw that. Actually it is the next patchset in my reviews backlog. I'll take a look later this morning | 15:20 |
| haleyb | it had two +2's before i updated it, so it's ready to go | 15:21 |
| mlavalle | can I still take a look? | 15:21 |
| mlavalle | haleyb: ^^^^ | 15:22 |
| haleyb | of course :) | 15:22 |
| mlavalle | :-) | 15:22 |
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| mlavalle | Next one is https://review.openstack.org/#/c/392183/ | 15:22 |
| mlavalle | Ooops | 15:22 |
| mlavalle | https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1636963 | 15:22 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1636963 in neutron "Service Subnets - DHCP port creation fails" [High,In progress] - Assigned to John Davidge (john-davidge) | 15:22 |
| mlavalle | This one has a number of +1's in the proposed fix | 15:23 |
| mlavalle | haleyb: any chance you take a look? | 15:23 |
| john-davidge | haleyb: commented to say he'd like to discuss it further here | 15:23 |
| haleyb | i had looked and actually added this one to the agenda | 15:23 |
| mlavalle | haleyb: let's do it now | 15:24 |
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| haleyb | john-davidge: did you think that allowing network:dhcp when dhcp is enabled is a good change? i haven't looked to see how difficult it would be | 15:25 |
| haleyb | but i would still do a fix that did not add network:dhcp to the types | 15:25 |
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| john-davidge | haleyb: Yes, I think that's a reasonable ammendment. I haven't looked into the complexity either, but I don't anticipate it would add much | 15:25 |
| john-davidge | haleyb: Yeah, your point about having to prevent users from removing it is valid, and would make for an ugly solution | 15:26 |
| haleyb | john-davidge: right, plus we'd still have to treat it special since having just netowrk:dhcp there would cause other problems | 15:27 |
| john-davidge | Let me look into what's necessary to restict it to dhcp_enabled subnets. If it's not too heavy I'll go ahead and do it | 15:27 |
| haleyb | john-davidge: ok, let me know if you need help | 15:27 |
| john-davidge | otherwise I'll comment with my findings | 15:27 |
| john-davidge | haleyb: Thanks, will do | 15:27 |
| baoli | haleyb, hohn-davidge: I think my comments is more towards the semantics of service type. So the current fix should be good. | 15:27 |
| haleyb | baoli: you raised a good point though - that fix always allowed dhcp, but should probably only do it if it's enabled, so hopefully just a minor tweak | 15:28 |
| john-davidge | baoli: I like your suggestion about only allowing it on dhcp_enabled subnets, narrows the use down some more | 15:29 |
| baoli | haleyb, john-davidge: cool, thanks | 15:29 |
| mlavalle | any other comments haleyb, john-davidge? | 15:30 |
| haleyb | mlavalle: nope | 15:30 |
| john-davidge | mlavalle: no | 15:30 |
| mlavalle | haleyb, john-davidge: Thanks for working on this. Also thanks to baoli for his comments | 15:30 |
| mlavalle | Last one today is https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1610483 | 15:31 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1610483 in neutron "Pluggable IPAM rollback mechanism is not robust" [High,In progress] - Assigned to Aliaksandr Dziarkach (aliaksandr-dziarkach) | 15:31 |
| mlavalle | There is a fix proposed for it: | 15:31 |
| mlavalle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/390594/ | 15:31 |
| mlavalle | I've been meaning to take a look at it. With the move to Austin, I couldn't find the time over the past few days | 15:32 |
| mlavalle | But I'll get back to it. I encourage others to take a look | 15:32 |
| mlavalle | Any other bugs I might have missed? | 15:33 |
| mlavalle | OK, moving on | 15:34 |
| mlavalle | #topic Prefix delegation | 15:34 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Prefix delegation (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:34 | |
| mlavalle | baoli: you are up | 15:34 |
| baoli | mlavalle: I have a couple of patches up for review | 15:34 |
| baoli | mlavalle: kevinbenton -1'ed on one of them, I've been trying to reach out to him on IRC a couple of times | 15:35 |
| baoli | malavalle, I updated the etherpad | 15:35 |
| mlavalle | baoli: he's hard to reach. Works at very odd hours. I advise conduct the conversation in Gerrit | 15:36 |
| baoli | mlavalle: I responded to his further comments. Let's what he has to say about it | 15:37 |
| baoli | s/what/wait | 15:37 |
| mlavalle | cool, any other updates? | 15:37 |
| baoli | I'd appreciate if folks in here would take a look at the patches | 15:38 |
| mlavalle | Ok, thanks! | 15:38 |
| baoli | malvalle: one of the things I'm working on is to support PD on HA routers | 15:38 |
| john-davidge | baoli: Cool! | 15:38 |
| mlavalle | yeah, that's great | 15:39 |
| mlavalle | Thnaks | 15:39 |
| baoli | john-davidge: sorry to take it over | 15:39 |
| baoli | john-davidge: do we have a bug for it? | 15:39 |
| john-davidge | baoli: You are very welcome to it :) | 15:39 |
| john-davidge | baoli: For HA support? No I don't think so | 15:39 |
| baoli | if not, should I create a regular bug or a EFT? | 15:39 |
| mlavalle | baoli: I say it is a RFE | 15:40 |
| john-davidge | baoli: I imagine that will need an RFE | 15:40 |
| baoli | john-davidge, mlavalle: sure, I'll create a RFE bug. | 15:40 |
| mlavalle | baoli: Thank you | 15:40 |
| mlavalle | Ok, moving on | 15:41 |
| mlavalle | #Topic Service Subnets | 15:41 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Service Subnets (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:41 | |
| mlavalle | We already covered the dhcp stuff earlier | 15:42 |
| mlavalle | Do we want to say anything about the doc | 15:42 |
| mlavalle | ? | 15:42 |
| haleyb | i have not gotten to it yet, in my backlog | 15:42 |
| mlavalle | That sounds good. Thanks! | 15:43 |
| mlavalle | #Topic Routed Networks | 15:43 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Routed Networks (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:43 | |
| haleyb | s/good/not good/ but... | 15:43 |
| mlavalle | :-) | 15:43 |
| mlavalle | I have continued working on the pathset to update Nova inventories with the routed neuworks ipv4 subnets topology | 15:44 |
| mlavalle | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/358658/ | 15:44 |
| mlavalle | kevinbenton asked me to do all the updates to Nova in batch | 15:45 |
| mlavalle | I finished that earlier this week | 15:45 |
| mlavalle | I've continued adding unit tests and I will be done with that soon | 15:45 |
| kevinbenton | \o/ | 15:45 |
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| mlavalle | And after that I just need to move my minimalist Nova placement client to a Neutron patchset | 15:46 |
| mlavalle | And will be done with this | 15:46 |
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| mlavalle | Any comments or questions? | 15:47 |
| john-davidge | Carl and I got together to discuss the external networks enhancement on Monday. Currently working on a spec to cover that work. Will update the group when I have something for review. | 15:47 |
| mlavalle | john-davidge: That's great. Thanks! | 15:48 |
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| mlavalle | and thanks toi carl_baldwin to keep spending some time playing with us :-) | 15:48 |
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| mlavalle | janzian: any comments as far as the Tempest test? | 15:49 |
| janzian | Nope, just waiting for more reviews at the moment :) | 15:49 |
| mlavalle | janzian: Thanks! | 15:50 |
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| mlavalle | I don't see tidwellr on line. So we are going to skip BGP Dynamic Routing, unless someone wants to talk about it | 15:50 |
| mlavalle | Ok.... | 15:51 |
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| edleafe | mlavalle: let me know if I can help on the Nova side | 15:51 |
| mlavalle | edleafe: will do, thanks. And also thanks for lurking in the shadows :-) | 15:52 |
| mlavalle | #topic Open Agenda | 15:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Agenda (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)" | 15:52 | |
| mlavalle | Any other topics the team wants to bring up? | 15:52 |
| mlavalle | Ok. Have a nice rest of your day | 15:53 |
| mlavalle | Thanks for attending! | 15:53 |
| mlavalle | #endmeeting | 15:53 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:53 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Dec 8 15:53:32 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:53 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_l3/2016/neutron_l3.2016-12-08-15.00.html | 15:53 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_l3/2016/neutron_l3.2016-12-08-15.00.txt | 15:53 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/neutron_l3/2016/neutron_l3.2016-12-08-15.00.log.html | 15:53 |
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| cdent | #startmeeting api-wg | 16:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Dec 8 16:00:02 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is cdent. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: api-wg)" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'api_wg' | 16:00 |
| cdent | #chairs elmiko etoews | 16:00 |
| cdent | who's here, say hi. | 16:00 |
| * cdent makes coffee | 16:00 | |
| elmiko | hi | 16:00 |
| cdent | oh noes, just the two of us? | 16:01 |
| cdent | edleafe? | 16:01 |
| edleafe | \o | 16:02 |
| * edleafe was getting more coffee | 16:02 | |
| elmiko | +1 | 16:02 |
| cdent | coffee++ | 16:02 |
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| cdent | okay, lets get started | 16:04 |
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| cdent | #link agenda: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/API-WG#Agenda | 16:04 |
| cdent | #topic: old business | 16:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to ": old business (Meeting topic: api-wg)" | 16:05 | |
| cdent | #link meeting notes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/api_wg/2016/api_wg.2016-12-01-16.00.html | 16:05 |
| cdent | there was one action item on me to clean up references to api impact in the wiki, I did that | 16:05 |
| scottda | Hi | 16:05 |
| cdent | replaced it with directions for other ways to get out attention for important reviews | 16:05 |
| cdent | s/out/our/ | 16:06 |
| elmiko | nice | 16:06 |
| cdent | #topic open mic | 16:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open mic (Meeting topic: api-wg)" | 16:06 | |
| cdent | nothing on the agenda | 16:06 |
| cdent | anyone have anything they'd like to talk about? | 16:06 |
| * elmiko starts the beat-box | 16:06 | |
| cdent | looks like no | 16:08 |
| cdent | #topic guidelines | 16:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "guidelines (Meeting topic: api-wg)" | 16:08 | |
| cdent | #link under review: https://review.openstack.org/#/q/status:open+project:openstack/api-wg,n,z | 16:08 |
| cdent | looks like https://review.openstack.org/#/c/399131/ can be merged | 16:08 |
| cdent | and https://review.openstack.org/#/c/405515/ can be frozen | 16:09 |
| cdent | agree ? | 16:09 |
| * elmiko looks | 16:09 | |
| edleafe | yep | 16:09 |
| elmiko | +1 for merge | 16:09 |
| elmiko | and freeze | 16:10 |
| cdent | with etoews not around, I'll violate protocol a bit and +1 his +2 | 16:11 |
| cdent | done and done | 16:12 |
| cdent | #topic bug review | 16:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "bug review (Meeting topic: api-wg)" | 16:12 | |
| cdent | no new bugs | 16:12 |
| cdent | anybody have any bugs they think should exist? | 16:13 |
| etoews | oops. i'm around but fighting a fire. sorry i missed the first notification. | 16:13 |
| cdent | etoews: no worries, fire trumps guideline | 16:13 |
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| cdent | # topic newsletter | 16:14 |
| cdent | #link etherpad https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/api-wg-newsletter | 16:14 |
| cdent | anybody feeling saucy enough to write the gripping first paragraph? (I've done the rest) | 16:17 |
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| elmiko | "it was a cold and dreary hour that day in freenode..." | 16:18 |
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| elmiko | "it was the best of guidelines, it was the worst of guidelines", better? | 16:19 |
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| cdent | it is a far far better guideline | 16:21 |
| elmiko | hahaha | 16:21 |
| cdent | okay, how's what we see there? | 16:22 |
| elmiko | looks good to me | 16:22 |
| cdent | must be time to ship it then | 16:23 |
| elmiko | +1 | 16:23 |
| cdent | will do that after the meeting ends | 16:23 |
| cdent | #topic end matter | 16:23 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "end matter (Meeting topic: api-wg)" | 16:23 | |
| cdent | anything else? | 16:23 |
| elmiko | nothing from me | 16:23 |
| edleafe | just the feeling of powerlessness | 16:23 |
| elmiko | heh | 16:23 |
| * edleafe thinks cdent knows what I'm talking about | 16:24 | |
| scottda | Yeah, tough to sell smart API changes to Cinder team as well edleafe | 16:24 |
| edleafe | scottda: these aren't even changes | 16:24 |
| cdent | should we shut down for the 22nd? What about the 29th? | 16:24 |
| edleafe | they are brand spanking new greenfield APIs | 16:24 |
| elmiko | cdent: that seems reasonable to me | 16:24 |
| scottda | :( | 16:24 |
| elmiko | edleafe: ouch... | 16:25 |
| edleafe | Well, cdent and I teamed up to fight back the forces of evil | 16:25 |
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| scottda | I've had to retreat and regroup myself. | 16:26 |
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| cdent | It's a common problem. It's hard to do good HTTP when habits have already been set. | 16:28 |
| cdent | Especially when people aren't really wanting to do with HTTP what HTTP is for. | 16:28 |
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| cdent | but anyway, that's a topic best saved for shady booths in smokey bars with beverages | 16:29 |
| cdent | Shall we end the meeting? | 16:29 |
| edleafe | +1 | 16:29 |
| scottda | https://review.openstack.org/401941 is what I had issues with...thands edleafe for chiming in | 16:29 |
| scottda | s/thands/thanks | 16:29 |
| cdent | #endmeeting | 16:30 |
| cdent | thanks everyone for coming | 16:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:31 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Dec 8 16:30:59 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:31 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/api_wg/2016/api_wg.2016-12-08-16.00.html | 16:31 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/api_wg/2016/api_wg.2016-12-08-16.00.txt | 16:31 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/api_wg/2016/api_wg.2016-12-08-16.00.log.html | 16:31 |
| elmiko | thanks cdent | 16:31 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: hi | 18:00 |
| SumitNaiksatam | songole: hi | 18:00 |
| tbachman | SumitNaiksatam: hi! | 18:00 |
| songole | hi | 18:00 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #startmeeting networking_policy | 18:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Dec 8 18:00:57 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is SumitNaiksatam. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking_policy)" | 18:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'networking_policy' | 18:01 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | #info agenda https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/GroupBasedPolicy#Dec_8th_2016 | 18:01 |
| rkukura | hi | 18:01 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Remove expunge_all calls | 18:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Remove expunge_all calls (Meeting topic: networking_policy)" | 18:01 | |
| SumitNaiksatam | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/399772/ | 18:01 |
| tbachman | :( | 18:01 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i just rebased it | 18:01 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: :-) | 18:01 |
| tbachman | SumitNaiksatam: I just got back to this mid-yesterday | 18:02 |
| SumitNaiksatam | songole: any more data points at your end? | 18:02 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: np | 18:02 |
| songole | Regarding sharing across threads.. | 18:02 |
| songole | we use getsession method provided by neutron | 18:03 |
| songole | would that be an issue? we are talking about green threads here, right? | 18:03 |
| tbachman | songole: in my mind, it *shouldn’t*, but I have yet to get through this code | 18:04 |
| tbachman | I believe get_session is supposed to provide an interface that ensures each green thread gets its own session | 18:04 |
| tbachman | but I haven’t gotten thru this myself just yet | 18:04 |
| * tbachman is doubting :) | 18:04 | |
| songole | ok | 18:05 |
| songole | regarding the specific patch, we ran tests locally with the patch | 18:05 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i dont thinkg neutron does anything there, i think this has to have been implemented in oslo_db | 18:05 |
| rkukura | songole: have you verified that each thread does its own getsession call, and that neither the session itself nor any of the DB objects associated with the sesssion are shared across threads? | 18:06 |
| songole | and we hit the db exception which sumit and I debugged for lbaas v1 | 18:06 |
| songole | rkukura: yes. each thread does its own getsession | 18:06 |
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| rkukura | songole: thanks | 18:06 |
| tbachman | okay, now I’m confused | 18:07 |
| tbachman | you’re hitting this w/o the expunge? | 18:07 |
| tbachman | (i.e. the DetachedInstanceError exception) | 18:07 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: i share your confusion ;-) | 18:08 |
| SumitNaiksatam | songole: you hit the exception with or without the expunge_all ? | 18:09 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: thanks for referring to the exact exception, just so that we know we are all talking about the same thing :-) | 18:10 |
| songole | I didn't see it myself. I just got an email from india team regarding this. | 18:10 |
| songole | I will confirm | 18:10 |
| SumitNaiksatam | songole: i hope its with the expunge_all call, otherwise it flies in the face of most of our analysis so far :-( | 18:10 |
| songole | SumitNaiksatam: I understand.. I will confirm.. | 18:11 |
| tbachman | SumitNaiksatam: I’m hoping to have a better handle on this tomorrow | 18:12 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: on the side perhaps we can continue to rebase/recheck your patch to see if we see any consistent pattern of failures | 18:12 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i will try to keep an eye as well | 18:13 |
| tbachman | I realize that we’re short on time here, so unfortunately I’m not sure what to do here. | 18:13 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i think there are several changes being made on the NFP side, and perhaps some of the exceptions we were seeing earlier on this patch were not related and might have gone away | 18:13 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: yeah same here, hence the offline email thread last week | 18:14 |
| tbachman | SumitNaiksatam: maybe we can address this again offline tomorrow? | 18:14 |
| tbachman | for at least the core GBP stuff? | 18:14 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: sue | 18:14 |
| SumitNaiksatam | *sure | 18:14 |
| tbachman | If we’re lucky, any findings there might give us clues for NFP as well (if there are any) | 18:15 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | songole: so you are confirming that your usage of threads in NFP is session-safe i.e. sessions are not getting shared threads? | 18:16 |
| songole | SumitNaiksatam: From our understanding, they are thread safe | 18:16 |
| SumitNaiksatam | *shared across | 18:16 |
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| songole | And, the lb db exception, i was seeing even without nfp | 18:17 |
| SumitNaiksatam | songole: oh, but i thought you were earlier saying that was not the case with the lb exception | 18:18 |
| SumitNaiksatam | songole: so the lb exception occured with or without GBP in the mix? | 18:19 |
| songole | with GBP and with or without nfp | 18:19 |
| SumitNaiksatam | songole: okay, so the expunge_all is still relevant | 18:19 |
| SumitNaiksatam | because without GBP, it wont be | 18:20 |
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| * tbachman would like to expunge expunge_all | 18:20 | |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: yay to that | 18:21 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: songole: any other data point we need to discuss? | 18:21 |
| tbachman | SumitNaiksatam: nothing from me (for now) | 18:21 |
| SumitNaiksatam | okay, so lets assume that NFP is indeed getting one session per thread | 18:22 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | and sessions are not leaking across threads | 18:22 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | can we analyze the exceptions we see henceforth on tbachman’s with that assumption? | 18:23 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman’s patch i meant | 18:23 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i think we got into the session leaking discussion because we were seeing some NFP exceptions which we could not explain | 18:24 |
| tbachman | SumitNaiksatam: FWIW, in the original bug report from Ivar, the problem seemed to be state that wasn’t being created | 18:24 |
| rkukura | Don’t forget that the DB objects stay associated with the session, so its important not to leak them across threads either. | 18:24 |
| tbachman | the UTs were failing b/c state wasn’t there | 18:24 |
| SumitNaiksatam | and attirbuted it to either the removal of the expunge_all call or the session leaking | 18:24 |
| tbachman | (e.g. assertEqual for a configuration that’s read back, but the configuration doesn’t exist) | 18:25 |
| tbachman | we should make sure that’s what the NFP failures were seeing (I believe they were, but don’t have the data in front of me atm) | 18:26 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: you are referring to this bug report, right: #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/group-based-policy/+bug/1404412 | 18:27 |
| openstack | Launchpad bug 1404412 in Group Based Policy "Session's persistent objects across transactions create inconsistency" [High,Fix released] - Assigned to Ivar Lazzaro (mmaleckk) | 18:27 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ? | 18:27 |
| tbachman | SumitNaiksatam: ack | 18:27 |
| SumitNaiksatam | what i recall was that the problem was of stale state | 18:27 |
| SumitNaiksatam | and there are not threading issues with the UTs (at least not that i am aware off) | 18:28 |
| SumitNaiksatam | doing the expunge_all was cleaning the in-session state and forcing reload from the db | 18:28 |
| tbachman | SumitNaiksatam: one theory I had was that tox runs UTs in parallel, and somehow the two threads were affecting the same DB state | 18:29 |
| tbachman | but that’s a shaky theory at best | 18:29 |
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| tbachman | so, it wasn’t the sequential transactions per-se | 18:30 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: hmmm, i would be doubtful about that | 18:30 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: it might very well have been a bug at that time though | 18:30 |
| songole | sorry, networking issues. reconnected | 18:30 |
| tbachman | SumitNaiksatam: ack | 18:30 |
| tbachman | yeah | 18:30 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: and hence that problem does not manifest any more now | 18:30 |
| tbachman | SumitNaiksatam: ack. But there are still a few things that don’t make sense to me | 18:31 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: because you are not seeing any issues with the UTs after removing the call | 18:31 |
| SumitNaiksatam | songole: np | 18:31 |
| tbachman | for example, changing it to expire should have had the same effect, were that the case | 18:31 |
| tbachman | but it didn't. | 18:31 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: hmmm, didnt think of that, but makes sense | 18:31 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: to your earlier point about sharing db objects across threads, if that is a culprit is some way with regards to the NFP errors, it would be difficult to track | 18:32 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: however, i don’t understand why it would manifest after removing the expunge_all call | 18:32 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | *is some way - in some way | 18:33 |
| rkukura | SumitNaiksatam: Agreed it might be difficult to track, but the DB objects use the session when you try to follow associations, etc. | 18:33 |
| tbachman | I think there are event logs we can turn on here, but I’m guessing it would be a complete overkill of info | 18:34 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: answering my own question, if db objects were being used across threads, and removing the expunge_all call led to an exception, i think it means that it actually revealed an incorrect use of the db objects (across threads), no? | 18:35 |
| tbachman | SumitNaiksatam: since the DB objects are tied to sessions, and sessions should only be used by a single thread, I’d say yes :) | 18:36 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: okay | 18:36 |
| rkukura | SumitNaiksatam: Since expunge_all() dissaciates the DB objects from the session, it seems like it could be preventing the errors | 18:36 |
| * tbachman believes that’s what rkukura was getting at | 18:36 | |
| rkukura | dissassociates | 18:36 |
| tbachman | keep in mind that the DB objects can only be used in this state if no backrefs are accessed | 18:37 |
| tbachman | otherwise we get the exception | 18:37 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: ah okay | 18:37 |
| tbachman | So, if the NFP code is doing this and not accessing backrefs, then we won’t see the exceptions in their code | 18:37 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: but that is regardless of the expunge_all, right? | 18:38 |
| tbachman | SumitNaiksatam: actually, without the expunge_all, the object is still tied to the session | 18:38 |
| tbachman | and the backref will work | 18:38 |
| tbachman | and worse | 18:38 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: ah okay | 18:38 |
| tbachman | If two contexts are sharing the same DB object, and mutating it, then there are issues | 18:39 |
| tbachman | SumitNaiksatam: I will also say that I’m still worried that my understanding of this is limited | 18:40 |
| rkukura | I don’t think a DB object can be associated with two sessions at once | 18:40 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: by contexts you mean? | 18:40 |
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| rkukura | I read context as session, but maybe tbachman meant thread | 18:40 |
| tbachman | yeah | 18:40 |
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| * tbachman hates the terminology here | 18:40 | |
| tbachman | context here meant thread | 18:41 |
| tbachman | sorry about that | 18:41 |
| SumitNaiksatam | but how can the db object with multiple sessions? | 18:41 |
| SumitNaiksatam | *be associated with | 18:41 |
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| rkukura | SumitNaiksatam: I think “multiple sessions” was my mistaken interprettation of tbachman | 18:41 |
| tbachman | rkukura: ack | 18:41 |
| tbachman | I meant multiple threads sharing the same DB object | 18:41 |
| SumitNaiksatam | ah sorry | 18:41 |
| tbachman | SumitNaiksatam: my bad :) | 18:41 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: no my bad, didnt read your comment | 18:42 |
| * tbachman is barely monolingual :) | 18:42 | |
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| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: lol | 18:42 |
| SumitNaiksatam | one more item on the agenda | 18:42 |
| rkukura | My point was that the DB objects (until expunged) stay associated with the session, so if they are shared across threads, they can cause the session to be shared across threads. | 18:42 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: but that is not a good usage pattern, right? | 18:43 |
| rkukura | SumitNaiksatam: Correct | 18:43 |
| rkukura | I’d also be somewhat concerned about continuing to use DB objects in the same thread after the transaction in which they were obtained is commited, and especially if a new transaction on the thread’s session gets started. Those old DB objects might become involved in the new transaction. | 18:44 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: agree, but i believe that pattern exists in several places in neutron code | 18:44 |
| SumitNaiksatam | so we cant change that | 18:45 |
| tbachman | It might be something we should emphasize for new code | 18:45 |
| tbachman | (in GBP of course) | 18:45 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | as for our NFP code, removing the expunge_all call somehow is leading stale state being read within the threads, which was not earlier the case because (implicitly) the assumption for expunge was being made | 18:46 |
| SumitNaiksatam | *leading to | 18:46 |
| rkukura | Or we just call expunge_all in the right places to dissassociate the DB objects from the sessions they came from ;) | 18:46 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: oh that can get really messy, i am sure you were indeed joking :-) | 18:47 |
| SumitNaiksatam | one more item on the agenda | 18:47 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #topic Configuring extension drivers from policy drivers | 18:47 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Configuring extension drivers from policy drivers (Meeting topic: networking_policy)" | 18:47 | |
| rkukura | SumitNaiksatam: Not really - I think it might explain why expunge_all seems to solve some problems, and maybe cause others | 18:47 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: yes, it might explain, but i dont think we want to solve that by calling expunge in a different place | 18:48 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/407985/ | 18:48 |
| SumitNaiksatam | in the above review you mentioned something to the effect of aggregating the driver extension i have proposed in the patch with another one | 18:49 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: this was ostensibly to avoid the need (and potential error) in specifying multiple driver extensions in the configraion | 18:50 |
| rkukura | right | 18:50 |
| rkukura | Or configuring extension meant for one driver with the other driver. | 18:51 |
| SumitNaiksatam | i was thinking what if we allowed the policy driver to specify the driver extensions | 18:51 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | so if a particular policy driver always knows that it needs certaing driver extensions, it can internally specify that | 18:52 |
| SumitNaiksatam | that would avoid the need for any additional extension driver configuration for that particular policy driver | 18:52 |
| rkukura | SumitNaiksatam: That may be a reasonable idea, but I’m a bit worried about it not being consistent with the way EDs work in ML2. | 18:52 |
| tbachman | FWIW, here’s the log of a failure in the NFP gatefor the last recheck on the expunge_all (search for “Traceback”): http://logs.openstack.org/72/399772/3/check/gate-group-based-policy-dsvm-nfp-ubuntu-xenial-nv/67fd5b7/logs/q-svc.txt.gz | 18:53 |
| SumitNaiksatam | tbachman: thanks | 18:53 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: but the GBP framework can diverge where relevant, right? | 18:54 |
| rkukura | First question is whether we want users to be able to choose whether or not to enable these extensions. If so, we should make them individual EDs that are not automatically pulled in by the PD/MD. | 18:54 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: there are two aspects to this, one is how they are implemented, and second how they are configured | 18:54 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: if they are implemented as separate extensions/drivers, it leaves the possibility open for configuring them individually | 18:55 |
| rkukura | I think it would be reasonable for a deployer to decide they want to use the aim_mapping PD, but only expose the standard GBP API. But I don’t know if the PD code will even work if the EDs are not enabled. | 18:55 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: specificall as for the AIM PD (and its reliance on the ml2+, etc) i think there is enough going on there that we should assume that it wont work without the EDs | 18:56 |
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| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: so in such cases why not let the PD decide that it always needs certain EDs | 18:57 |
| SumitNaiksatam | * or at least certain EDs | 18:58 |
| rkukura | But then why package each (required) feature as a separate extension and ED? Wouldn’t it be a lot simpler to just have one extension and one ED for all of them? | 18:58 |
| SumitNaiksatam | rkukura: so that some other PD could potentially consume them in a different combination | 18:58 |
| rkukura | SumitNaiksatam: maybe that makes sense | 18:59 |
| SumitNaiksatam | okay we reached the hour | 18:59 |
| SumitNaiksatam | thanks all for your time | 18:59 |
| SumitNaiksatam | bye! | 18:59 |
| SumitNaiksatam | #endmeeting | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 19:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Dec 8 19:00:01 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_policy/2016/networking_policy.2016-12-08-18.00.html | 19:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_policy/2016/networking_policy.2016-12-08-18.00.txt | 19:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_policy/2016/networking_policy.2016-12-08-18.00.log.html | 19:00 |
| rkukura | bye | 19:00 |
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| tbachman | SumitNaiksatam: thanks! | 19:01 |
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