Thursday, 2017-02-02

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* gothicmindfood peers around14:00
gothicmindfoodanyone here for the SWG meeting?14:00
gothicmindfoodping amrith, dhellmann, gothicmindfood, ttx, jroll, johnthetubaguy, sdague, mordred, carolbarrett, nikhil, mugsie, thingee, alexismonville, edleafe, EmilienM, harlowja, devananda, bastafidli14:00
* dhellmann has a conflict :-/14:01
* jroll totally forgot but is here14:01
gothicmindfooddhellmann: no worries!14:01
* edleafe is here, but has to leave in a few14:01
gothicmindfoodwe have a few people, so I'll go ahead14:01
gothicmindfood#startmeeting openstack-swg14:01
openstackMeeting started Thu Feb  2 14:01:43 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is gothicmindfood. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.14:01
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: openstack-swg)"14:01
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'openstack_swg'14:01
gothicmindfoodfirst off, reviewing action items (both mine):14:02
gothicmindfood1) after some discussion, it seems having everyone in person is the most ideal situation for visioning. And we're looking at the day after the TC & Board meeting as an idea option to have a day of vision facilitation just for the TC14:03
gothicmindfoodI'll be either at the next TC meeting to discuss that and/or will ask ttx to bring it up if I can't make it14:03
gothicmindfood(really, I'll be there)14:03
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johnthetubaguydid that date get announced now, I guess it has14:04
gothicmindfoodthere is some concern that the PTG in February, the board/TC joint session in March, potentially Leadership Training in April (for half the TC who hasn't been) and then "summit" in May is a lot14:04
gothicmindfoodjohnthetubaguy: I haven't seen it yet - was it on the -dev list?14:05
mugsieI havent seen anything for it yet14:05
johnthetubaguynot that I know of, its just I though it was being agreed at the board meeting that just happened14:05
gothicmindfoodah, I see.14:05
johnthetubaguynope: "We are hoping to schedule a date in March" is all I see in :
johnthetubaguynever mind14:06
gothicmindfoodlast I heard it was some time in the first couple of weeks in March, in Boston14:06
johnthetubaguyI can confirm thats a lot of travel, each of those means I loose two weekends and burn $2500 of travel budget I don't have.14:06
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gothicmindfoodjohnthetubaguy: one of the things ttx and I discussed right after the busyness of the travel (esp for folks living in Europe or Asia) is that we could push off training until the summer, potentially. I'm just worried that plenty of people who've already said the week of April 10th works for them will have other commitments (especially with kids out of school)14:07
johnthetubaguygothicmindfood: that is tempting, but agreed its never going to be idea for everyone14:08
gothicmindfoodokay. I think I'm holding on making any of those calls til we set this board/TC & TC visioning date, though14:09
gothicmindfoodthen I'll check in with attendees to see what works better, and we can take scheduling from there14:09
gothicmindfoodokay - #2 action item was for me to submit a talk for the summit in May.14:09
* gothicmindfood hates calling it a "Summit" it's confusing14:10
gothicmindfoodbut I submitted it yesterday14:10
gothicmindfoodthe abstract is basically saying we will summarize the TC vision draft, and discuss the process and leave room for Q&A after14:10
gothicmindfoodnothing too fancy.14:10
johnthetubaguysounds good14:10
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gothicmindfoodwe discussed it last meeting, but if anyone else has any other ideas for a talk for Boston re: SWG, now is the time to discuss in #openstack-swg if you want feedback from the group :)14:11
gothicmindfood#topic Review updated PTG Vision14:12
*** openstack changes topic to "Review updated PTG Vision (Meeting topic: openstack-swg)"14:12
gothicmindfood(sorry about that - forgot to topic my action item recap)14:12
gothicmindfoodis looking pretty good!14:12
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gothicmindfoodthere wasn't a ton of feedback on the mailing list, so I have a feeling we might have to start actively recruiting/pinging folks to get them to come and get engaged with us on Monday if they're available14:13
gothicmindfoodI will bring this up in channel/off meeting, but should we start a list of people to 'recruit' to swing by on Monday for help with prioritizing our work?14:13
mugsieI know the first few days are going to be very busy for some people14:13
gothicmindfoodyeah, I'd love for us to be a stop-over point for folks when they have breaks14:14
gothicmindfoodto contribute14:14
alexismonvillethe list makes sense14:14
gothicmindfoodso I'm wondering if our goal is to get a sense of what everyone else thinks our priorities should be if we should have like, a post-it wall14:14
gothicmindfoodfor people to write and leave comments and move things around, so they don't necessarily have to be there all day or for extended periods?14:15
gothicmindfoodwe could also lure them in with snacks14:15
alexismonvillegreat! that could be a tree, with roots ,small branches and leafs14:15
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alexismonvilleand people put their notes where they think it belongs14:16
gothicmindfoodright, or maybe they comment on where existing notes should be? or how they're related?14:16
gothicmindfoodor they just write their own and place them as a kind of +114:16
* gothicmindfood should get a bunch of +1 stickers printed up14:17
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mugsiemaybe a whiteboard, with post its14:17
mugsieso, people can comment beside goals, or link them visually14:17
gothicmindfoodmugsie: totally. We'll probably need a few, I'm guessing! :)14:17
mugsieyeah :)14:17
* mugsie wonders if the hotel can paint a wall in whiteboard paint :)14:17
gothicmindfoodI like the idea of accomodating the hecticness of everyone's schedule by making this drop-in friendly.14:18
gothicmindfoodshould we just reserve the whole day for that drop-in prioritizing, but have a few concentrated sessions, too?14:19
johnthetubaguyso I was hoping we could kick start efforts for the next few months, till we meet at the summit (or next PTG)14:19
gothicmindfoodjohnthetubaguy: me too. Do you think it's possible to do that with everyone's schedule being so crazy already?14:20
johnthetubaguybut with visioning paused, I am not quite sure what other things we should prioritise right now14:20
gothicmindfoodwell, we still have a list of things from before:14:20
johnthetubaguyso put this another way, for the folks that attend this meeting, who will be there14:20
mugsieI will be around - but have a lot of other stuff to get done as well14:21
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gothicmindfoodI'm mostly thinking about starting work on a passport14:21
gothicmindfoodfor the TC and potentially for PTLs14:21
johnthetubaguyOK, I guess I don't have the context to feel excited by those other ones yet14:22
gothicmindfoodI think that can happen without a vision, because a lot of it is already codified culturally - it just entails interviewing TC members (past and present) and PTLs (past and present) initially, to get some good feedback on what they think they need14:22
johnthetubaguythe process change and the passport thingy14:22
gothicmindfoodthe passport is basically just a way of writing down what the expectations of a particular position are in terms of knowledge base and understanding, and is a way to explain to people how to learn about those/get trained up14:23
johnthetubaguyI always thought that was done quite well here, I guess: for context14:23
johnthetubaguynot quite the same format, but a similar aim14:24
gothicmindfoodjohnthetubaguy: yeah, I think that's a great taxonomy/explanation of the community, but it's not speaking towards those people specifically14:24
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gothicmindfood"so you're a new TC member... here's what to expect, here are some resources that can help"14:25
gothicmindfoodor even "so you'd like to be a TC member... here's how to get there"14:25
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gothicmindfoodso this goes a bit deeper there to really speak to a specific person, not just explain the broad strokes of a role14:25
johnthetubaguyI guess, there is certainly missing bits there14:26
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gothicmindfoodI'm sure we'll also get lots of suggestions for things at the PTG that we'll want to sort through14:27
gothicmindfoodshould we plan on a close-to end of day session to try for that?14:27
gothicmindfoodall together?14:27
gothicmindfoodwith the obvious understanding that some people won't be able to do it?14:27
mugsieyeah, a close out session could be good.14:28
johnthetubaguythat could work I think, its just I was hoping to make progress on some of them together, but sounds like thats not going to happen14:28
gothicmindfoodjohnthetubaguy: besides the vision, what else would you like to make progress on? We can certainly try to have a specific session around something if it matters!14:29
gothicmindfoodI'm a bit frustrated with how slowly things have gone as well, fwiw, but I had to remind myself last week that a lot of this stuff, because it really requires buy-in from so many, takes awhile.14:30
alexismonvillechanges are not happening overnight14:31
johnthetubaguywell, the principals have got documented, and we have the new goals process, thats all good14:31
alexismonvillethis community will still need the energy from others to help it :)14:31
gothicmindfoodyeah, and both of those had some folks pretty up in arms over that change :)14:32
gothicmindfoodalexismonville: ++14:32
johnthetubaguyfor me, the visioning will help build agreement on what comes next, for sure14:32
gothicmindfoodjohnthetubaguy: ++14:32
gothicmindfoodokay, so I'll write a bit about trying to get as many SWGers together towards the end of Monday's day to take a look at the feedback we've gotten, and attempt to sort through it14:33
gothicmindfoodand that will probably close out our visioning for the PTG :)14:33
gothicmindfood#topic Where to store vision examples for pre-reading before vision facilitation?14:33
*** openstack changes topic to "Where to store vision examples for pre-reading before vision facilitation? (Meeting topic: openstack-swg)"14:33
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gothicmindfoodthis was just to remind me of a question I have14:34
gothicmindfoodI was sent some more visions as examples to use14:34
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gothicmindfoodone is a draft vision for ZingTrain 2020 that they're sharing so we can compare it to how it relates to the Zingerman's overall 2020 vision14:34
gothicmindfoodand the other is a vision from a pediatric clinic that did a vision14:35
gothicmindfoodthey're in pdf or doc format, collectively14:35
gothicmindfoodso I'm not sure how best to go about sharing them with anyone who wants to read through visions as an exercise before the TC does their own.14:35
gothicmindfoodshould I just make sure to send to attendees of that session once we book it?14:36
gothicmindfoodor should I share with the broader community in some way?14:36
johnthetubaguyso we can keep using this etherpad to share ideas as we go:
johnthetubaguythen send that to attendees when that makes sense14:36
gothicmindfoodyup - but if people want to read examples, I can't really attach a doc or pdf to an etherpad, right?14:37
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gothicmindfoodmaybe I'll just add that anyone who wants them can email me and ask14:37
gothicmindfoodon that etherpad14:37
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johnthetubaguyah, I was assuming its a web accessable link, but I guess they don't want that?14:38
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gothicmindfoodyeah, I think it just hasn't been uploaded by them anywhere like that, so I'd prefer not to be the first, you know :)14:39
johnthetubaguyyeah, that makes it harder14:39
gothicmindfoodokay, I just added a little note to that vision that says folks can contact me for more, and I'll also make sure to send confirmed attendees to the vision session everything once we've scheduled that14:40
gothicmindfood#topic open discussion14:40
*** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: openstack-swg)"14:40
johnthetubaguyso was looking through the notes in the vision etherpad, I wonder if we have any UC board members around on the Monday of the PTG, possibly not14:40
alexismonvillegothicmindfood: reconnecting just now... where did you share the vision's examples ?14:41
gothicmindfoodalexismonville: some links are at the bottom of but I will also forward you the attachments I have that I don't feel comfortable publishing to the web!14:41
alexismonvillegothicmindfood: great! thank you14:42
gothicmindfoodjohnthetubaguy: we can certainly ask! Isn't there a user meetup happening in europe that week, though?14:42
johnthetubaguyI am thinking we could do something to help the UC, TC, PWG relationhip14:42
johnthetubaguyI don't know14:42
gothicmindfoodjohnthetubaguy: I think that's a great idea. I have folks from all of those lined up for leadership training as part of my evil plan for that :)14:42
gothicmindfoodjohnthetubaguy: but I'm certainly open to more ideas14:43
gothicmindfoodjohnthetubaguy: and I think it's a very very worthy thing to spend time on14:43
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johnthetubaguyit would be interesting to just go through with them, their top 5 things they want to change in OpenStack or something like that, and look at ways to make the change happen14:44
gothicmindfoodjohnthetubaguy: would you like to check with the UC members to see if they'll be at the PTG?14:44
gothicmindfoodif they can't be, we can certainly ask them for their input on that, and write it up/post-it to the wall on our PTG day!14:45
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johnthetubaguyyeah, give me that action I guess, I can see what we can do14:45
johnthetubaguyactually, scratch that, the UC elections are like the week before the PTG14:46
gothicmindfoodjohnthetubaguy: they're going to stay on for ~6 months to help with the transition though14:46
gothicmindfoodso it's not so bad to get the feedback14:47
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johnthetubaguytrue, but thinking on it, we don't have loads of folks in the room to help make the links, but we could try14:48
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gothicmindfoodI think at least knowing if they'll be around and if they have feedback/thoughts on what the SWG could do for them, that's not a bad thing to try14:49
* gothicmindfood started a ping list on the PTG vision14:49
gothicmindfoodI categorized areas where we might need to focus the list, but I also think just inviting anyone is a good thing14:50
gothicmindfoodso if we can start fleshing out that list now, and mark who we've contacted/invited14:50
gothicmindfoodthat will set us up well for our next and last meeting before the PTG I think14:51
gothicmindfood#action gothicmindfood to sort out logistics and supplies for SWG meeting room with ttx14:51
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johnthetubaguythe open invite sounds important, so does asking folks we want in the room14:51
gothicmindfoodjohnthetubaguy: ++14:51
gothicmindfoodit's too bad we're on the first day, otherwise having postcards made up to hand out to people there would be good14:52
* gothicmindfood may do that anyways14:52
gothicmindfoodswg-advertising :)14:52
gothicmindfoodanything else, before we get back to our days?14:53
gothicmindfoodI'm hoping we'll have more logistics sorted out and a plan of people to actively engage/invite into the room by our next meeting14:54
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gothicmindfoodand I think we're on the right track with all of this, too! :)14:54
gothicmindfoodif there's nothing else...14:55
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"14:56
openstackMeeting ended Thu Feb  2 14:55:58 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)14:56
openstackMinutes (text):
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mlavalle#startmeeting neutron_l315:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Feb  2 15:00:16 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is mlavalle. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.15:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)"15:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'neutron_l3'15:00
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mlavallehey john-davidge15:01
mlavalleI saw janzian joining the meeting also15:01
mlavallehaleyb: you around?15:01
janzianMorning everyone15:01
haleybyes, i'm here15:01
mlavalleAgenda for today is here:15:02
mlavalle#topic Announcements15:02
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mlavalleFirst one is we are cutting RC-1 this week15:02
mlavalleso we need to be careful merging patchsets15:03
mlavalleSecond announcements, this week the community is holding PTL elections:15:04
mlavalleIn the case of Neutron, we have two candidates. Please don't forget to cast your votes15:05
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mlavalleThird, the PTG is 3 weeks. You can find the Neutron etherpad here:15:06
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mlavalleIf you have subjects you want discussed during the PTG, add them to the etherpad15:06
mlavalleany other annoucements from the team?15:07
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mlavalle#topic Bugs15:08
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mlavalleFirst up today is
openstackLaunchpad bug 1610483 in neutron "Pluggable IPAM rollback mechanism is not robust" [High,In progress] - Assigned to Aliaksandr Dziarkach (aliaksandr-dziarkach)15:09
mlavalleI see that Launchpad wants to assign it to haleyb15:09
mlavalleand haleyb is pushing it back ;-)15:09
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mlavallehaleyb: thanks for the review15:09
mlavalleI'll probably ping the author or johnbelamaric to see what is the next step15:10
mlavalleany other comments?15:10
haleybyes, i updated, but then ?? fixed it15:11
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mlavallehaleyb: i'll ping John, if they don't follow up, we can fix it. ok haleyb?15:12
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mlavallenext up
openstackLaunchpad bug 1570122 in neutron "ipv6 prefix delegated subnets are not accessable external of the router they are attached." [High,In progress] - Assigned to John Davidge (john-davidge)15:13
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john-davidgemlavalle: The patch has a +2 from haleyb, but is getting caught in the gate15:13
haleybit needs another +2, and i got it on the RC1 list15:14
mlavallejohn-davidge: but is ready to go, right?15:14
john-davidgemlavalle: Wait, no, that's the other one getting caught in the gate :)15:14
haleybthat nova bug fix has almost merged...15:14
john-davidgemlavalle: Yes, ready to go, needs another +215:14
john-davidgehaleyb: Thanks@15:14
mlavalleah ok, in that case I'll review it later today and merge it15:14
mlavallejohn-davidge: ^^^^15:14
john-davidgemlavalle: perfect, thank you15:15
haleybuntil merges (nova) it's probably going to fail recheck15:15
haleybi hope15:15
mlavalleNext up is
openstackLaunchpad bug 1660607 in neutron "Newton: Changing fixed ip doesn't work when a subnet is using service type" [High,In progress] - Assigned to John Davidge (john-davidge)15:16
haleybthat's stuck in the gate queue as well15:17
mlavallejohn-davidge: this is the one caught in the gate, right?15:17
john-davidgemlavalle: That's the one getting caught in the gate, alreayd has 2 +2s and workflow15:17
haleybmlavalle: i just added two other IPv6 PD bugs to the wiki as well15:17
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mlavallehaleyb: yeah I saw that15:17
haleybor maybe just the one, broken w /dvr15:17
mlavallethis is the bug:
openstackLaunchpad bug 1541406 in neutron "IPv6 prefix delegation does not work with DVR" [Medium,In progress] - Assigned to Brian Haley (brian-haley)15:18
haleybjohn-davidge: can you take a look at ^^, might as well fix all the PD issues we can15:18
haleybHA is the only remaining after that15:18
john-davidgehaleyb: Sure15:18
mlavallehaleyb: I'll take a look as well. Ideally, we want thos for Rc-1, right?15:19
haleybmlavalle: yes, they have been approved for RC115:19
mlavallealready in my pile of reviews15:20
john-davidgehaleyb: This is a pretty big chnage that hasnt been looked at since Feb, do you think its realistic to merge for rc1?15:20
haleybpeople should make sure their bug is on that list15:20
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haleybjohn-davidge: did i paste the wrong link?  i didn't think the change was large15:21
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john-davidgehaleyb: Ah, yeah, my bad, looking at the wrong patch15:21
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mlavalleok, next up is
openstackLaunchpad bug 1627424 in neutron "FlushError on IPAllocation" [High,Confirmed] - Assigned to Miguel Lavalle (minsel)15:22
haleybyou didn't fix that yet? :)15:23
mlavalleI made great progress with this one. I figured out what the problem is15:23
mlavalleno fix yet, but now I know what is going on15:23
haleybnice, was being sarcastic15:23
mlavallethe FlushError is really just a symptom of a deeper problem with our retry logic15:24
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mlavallewe have a port P with ip addresses ip1 (subnet S1), ip2 (subnet S2) and more ip's on other subnets15:25
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mlavallewe get a request to delete S1 and another request to delete S215:25
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mlavalleeach one of those requests goes and tries to update P, removing the respective ip address15:26
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mlavallerequest to delete S2 succeeds updating P15:26
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mlavallewhen request to delete S1 tries to update P, it gets stale data from common attributes of the P15:27
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mlavallethe update_port for P is retried, but that update_port still has ip2 as a fixed ip of P15:27
mlavalleso it ends up adding back ip2 and trying to delete ip115:28
mlavalleand that is where we get the FlushError15:28
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mlavallehowpefully I didn't confuse you15:28
mlavalleI'll update the bug with my findings and propose a fix soon15:29
mlavalleany questions or advice?15:29
john-davidgemlavalle: Sounds like you have a good handle on it :)15:29
haleybmakes sense, looking forward to seeing fix.  i'd advise pinging kevin benton when you get a patch out is all15:29
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mlavallehaleyb: yeah, that is my plan. he is the one who really knows the retry logic plumbing15:30
* mlavalle as a English speaker as a second language is always confused between advice and advise :-)15:32
mlavalleNext up is
openstackLaunchpad bug 1627480 in neutron "create_port can succeed without returning fixed_ips on all requested subnets" [High,Confirmed] - Assigned to James Anziano (janzian)15:32
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mlavallejanzian: any updates?15:32
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janzianI've been looking through the test case for this bug, there's one written specifically for it15:33
janzianIt's passing in my environment, where I think the test case was written to fail as long as the bug is present15:34
janzianSo I'm not quite sure what's going on yet, but still figuring things out15:34
mlavallejanzian: most of this failures show up with high level of concurrency, like in the gate15:34
mlavallejanzian: very seldom they show up just running a test case individually15:35
mlavallelike the one I explained above15:35
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mlavallejanzian: let's spend some time together looking at the logs15:35
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janzianmlavalle: Sounds like a plan15:35
mlavallejanzian: thanks for working on this, though15:36
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mlavalleLast one today is
openstackLaunchpad bug 1509004 in neutron ""test_dualnet_dhcp6_stateless_from_os" failures seen in the gate" [High,Confirmed]15:37
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mlavalleI haven't had time to track in down in Kibana. Has anyone taken a look?15:37
haleybit's been a while since i looked15:38
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mlavalleno problem. Now that I fiugured out the FkushEroor one, I'll start tracking this one15:38
mlavalleAny other bugs from the team?15:39
haleybcouple of times a day it looks like15:39
mlavallehaleyb: thanks for updating the etherpad with those bugs :-)15:39
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mlavalle#topic Prefix Delegation15:40
*** openstack changes topic to "Prefix Delegation (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)"15:40
mlavallebaoli: hi! Any updates?15:40
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mlavalleI think that means no.... :-)15:41
mlavalle#topic BGP Dynamic Routing15:42
*** openstack changes topic to "BGP Dynamic Routing (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)"15:42
mlavalleI was able to exchange some messages with tidwellr15:42
mlavalleHe is with Target now, leading a team that is deploying OpenStack for Target15:42
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mlavallehe plans to continue playing with us15:43
mlavallebut he's been too busy lately15:43
mlavalleany other comments?15:43
mlavalle#topic Routed Networks15:44
*** openstack changes topic to "Routed Networks (Meeting topic: neutron_l3)"15:44
mlavalleAll the code for this was merged last week, as well as the doc update15:44
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john-davidgemlavalle: Great work! Thanks for your efforts15:44
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mlavallejohn-davidge: I'll keep this subject in the agenda, since it seems we will come back to it during Pike for floating IPs15:45
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john-davidgemlavalle: Yeah, I'll post an RFE before the PTG, but I'm sure it will warrant plenty of discussion15:45
haleybmlavalle: yes, great job.  Did you see the recent tripleo email rgarding routed networks?15:45
haleyb in particular15:47
haleybi don't know if they need some help undertanding where things currently are15:47
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john-davidgehaleyb: I hadn't seen that either, will take a look15:47
mlavalle#topic Open Agenda15:48
mlavalleAny other topics from the team?15:48
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mlavallehaleyb: I'll take a look15:48
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mlavalleany other topics?15:49
john-davidgenot from me15:49
mlavalleok, team, thanks for your attendance and your follow up. Enjoy the rest of your days!15:49
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"15:50
openstackMeeting ended Thu Feb  2 15:50:04 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)15:50
openstackMinutes (text):
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cdent#startmeeting api-wg16:00
openstackMeeting started Thu Feb  2 16:00:09 2017 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes.  The chair is cdent. Information about MeetBot at
openstackUseful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.16:00
*** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: api-wg)"16:00
openstackThe meeting name has been set to 'api_wg'16:00
cdent#chair edleafe etoews16:00
openstackCurrent chairs: cdent edleafe etoews16:00
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cdenthi everybody16:01
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cdent#topic old biz and actions16:01
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cdentI was supposed to schmooze with the arch-wg about spending time at the ptg16:02
cdentI did16:02
cdentthey were happy16:02
cdentwe started some discussions about topics. some for daytime16:02
cdentsome for bar16:02
rosmaitafoo bar?16:02
cdent#link etherpad for arch-wg ptg talk:
scottdaI know we can't schedule cross-project talks, but is there an etherpad or some way to register names of interested individuals?16:03
scottdaThis came up for the Consistent Endpoints conversation...16:03
scottdaI guess just that etherpad ^^^ :)16:04
cdentscottda: yeah, lots of people have expressed this problem16:04
cdentand that etherpad is one way16:04
cdentbut I think we're going to have etherpad conflicts16:04
cdentas, for example, the py35-goals etherpad has the same thing: people registering their interest16:05
cdentbut not in a global way16:05
cdenton the day of there is going to be an ethercalc to help people manage space and topics16:05
scottdaMaybe we need a meta-etherpad, that points to all the other etherpads...16:05
cdentbut I hope we start that before the day of16:05
scottdacdent: OK.16:05
cdent#action cdent to agitate with whomever to make sure the ethercalc is available before ptg16:06
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edleafescottda: like ?16:07
scottdaedleafe: Yeah, like that.16:07
cdent#link ptg link of etherpads
cdentThe other action item was that edleafe and cdent were going to hobnob over how freezing etc works. We didn't do that because of cycle timing16:08
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cdentso we'll keep that for next time16:09
cdent#action edleafe to get with cdent to talk about freezing16:09
cdent#topic open mic and new biz16:09
*** openstack changes topic to "open mic and new biz (Meeting topic: api-wg)"16:09
cdent"We probably need to cleanup and correct the list of people notified when we freeze"16:09
cdentI realized that when we pester people with the auto-pester script we're probably not up to date. I'm not sure I remember where that list comes from or what it even means. etoews ?16:10
etoewsit's all documented here
etoews(which is linked to from step #2 of )16:11
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cdentyes, but do we have any indication that the json file is being kept up to date?16:12
etoewsthat's up to the liaison's themselves16:12
cdenthmmm, perhaps so, the last change was november last year, which is relatively good16:13
cdentI think we should add something in today's newletter reminding projects that that's the case16:13
edleafecdent: yes, especially with PTL elections ongoing16:13
edleafenew PTLs should be reminded of this16:14
etoewssee also #link
cdentk, moving on16:15
cdentlet's reorder and talk "Glance!" before stability guidelines as they are related and "Glance!" will warm us up. rosmaita, you ready ?16:15
rosmaitaReally need some timely input on this16:16
rosmaitaHere's the context: there's a disagreement between the Glance team and the QA team on what's the correct way to fix a bug.16:16
rosmaita(links in agenda)16:16
rosmaitaI think this is a clear case where the docs are correct, so the code should change, but some on the QA team think the docs have to change (which ordinarily would be the correct move, but I don't think so in this case)16:16
rosmaitaAnyway, Glance requests some timely advice. because while we were holding our patch until we received some advice, a tempest test was merged16:16
rosmaitaThis test will have to be reverted if the Glance patch is accepted, which of course is going to slow things down during RC time16:16
rosmaitawhich is really annoying because the QA team knew full well this issue was under discussion and that I was holding the Glance patch until we'd talked it over16:17
rosmaitaso i just want to state out loud my opinion that this power play by the QA team was not made in the proper community spirit16:17
rosmaitabut i digress16:17
cdentQA is being an activist judiciary?16:17
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rosmaitaat least16:17
rosmaitaself-appointed, to boot16:18
rosmaitabut again, i digress16:18
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rosmaitamy ask is if you could look those over and let me know what you think16:18
edleafeMy problem in understanding this is I don't use Glance on a regular enough basis to be affected by this, so I'm taking people's word for it16:18
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edleafeSome say that this change makes sense, and operators will be hurt without it16:18
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rosmaitathis is a different change, i think16:19
edleafeThe QA people say that making this change will cause all sorts of operator pain16:19
rosmaitathe visibility one got through16:19
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rosmaitathis change is just that a DELETE call for a metadefs operation returns 20016:19
edleaferosmaita: ah, I hadn't seen that16:19
rosmaitait is documented to return 20416:19
edleafethe last time I saw it QA was pretty strident about it16:19
rosmaitaand all the other DELETEs for metadefs do in fact return 20416:19
rosmaitathey seem to be strident about everything16:20
rosmaita(oops did i say that out loud)16:20
cdentLong ago and far away the goal of the api-wg was to achieve consistency across and within the apis16:20
cdenta random delete operation that behaves differently from all the others "next" to it is inconsistent16:20
rosmaitathat is my thought, too16:21
rosmaitabut, if the openstack consensus is inconsistent but stable is the ideal, we will do that16:21
rosmaitai'm just trying to figure out if i'm being stubborn or reasonable16:21
rosmaitaso my ask is to give me some feedback about that16:21
edleafeAnd if it's documented to return 204, then it's a bug if it returns 20016:21
rosmaitathat's what i think, the docs do provide a contract16:22
cdentsuccess handling is often fairly generic, such that 200 and 204 are both in the class of "success". So the stability cost here is different from changing a 403 to a 400 (or whatever)16:22
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rosmaitayeah, i think a consumer who hard coded in a 200 expectation here would be ... inept16:22
rosmaitathe other thing is, if we change the docs, we need to make a big deal about it16:23
rosmaitabecuase otherwise it looks like a typo16:23
rosmaitagiven what all the other operations do16:23
* cdent nods16:23
rosmaitawhich is fine16:23
rosmaitaif that's the appropriate thing to do16:23
rosmaitawell, that's basically it ... would appreciate whether the fast fix (just change the docs) or the slow fix (get the code change + tempest test change) is the way to go16:24
etoewsit seems to this is clearly a code bug. so the bug should be fixed. period.16:24
etoewsif not, openstack risks going down the path of internet explorer where people wind up coding to the bugs and that way lies madness.16:24
cdentI think, unfortunately, you're going to need to go to the TC with this. The underlying issue is with regard to qa activism (which is a reasonable role for them to take, to a degree). You've got a sympathetic ear, but little in the way of executive power16:24
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rosmaitathe IE care!16:25
rosmaitawish i'd thought of that16:25
edleafeBTW, my "agree" was with etoews' assessment16:25
cdentwe three can pile on the review, if that will help16:25
cdentbut I don't think that will change anything in any permanent sense16:25
rosmaitayes, it would be good to see soem consensus16:25
rosmaitai will take it to the TC16:26
rosmaitajust wanted to make sure i had done appropriate groudwork first16:26
cdentI think so. edleafe, etoews ?16:26
edleafeYes, I think an #agreed is in order16:27
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edleafe#agreed The bug in is a code bug, not a documentation bug. The code should be fixed to return 204.16:28
openstackLaunchpad bug 1656183 in Glance "Delete tags return 200 status code but api-ref says 204" [High,In progress] - Assigned to Ian Cordasco (icordasc)16:28
edleafeIs that ok?16:28
cdenti reckon so16:28
* sigmavirus did not expect that resolution16:28
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rosmaitasigmavirus: call me roosmaita16:29
edleafesigmavirus: what resolution was your money on?16:29
asettlesigmavirus rosmaita - do you two just meet all day in separate channels?16:29
sigmavirusedleafe: that it was a doc bug16:29
sigmavirusasettle: yes16:29
asettleCool. I take my leave.16:30
rosmaitaasettle: we have to stop meeting like this16:30
sigmavirusrosmaita: or do we?16:30
asettle*twilight zone music*16:30
cdentsigmavirus: the api-wg is evidently not in the camp of permanent stability16:30
asettleI'm running a meeting in the other room if you guys wanna pop in :p16:30
rosmaitai think the api-wg stives for "flexible stability"16:31
edleafesigmavirus: If every similar delete method returns a 204, consistency would say that that method is incorrect16:31
rosmaitanot handicapping rigidity16:31
cdentsigmavirus: which is part of why I keep asking for input on the stabilty guideline, because it's hard to write about something like that without help from both the true believers and the opposers and the compromisers16:32
cdentwhich is a nice segue to the next topic16:32
cdentwhich can be summarized as: I'm really struggling to have any mental traction on refactoring/correcting etc the stability guidelines16:32
edleafemasterful sequeway16:32
rosmaitacdent: i have a really unhelpful comment16:33
rosmaitathe more i think about it, the more this stability tag seems like a bad idea16:33
rosmaitabecause, does it mean that if glance, for instance, doesn't adopt it16:33
rosmaitawe can do whatever the heck we want?16:33
rosmaitathat woudl be insane16:33
rosmaitai think we really need to all strive for stability period16:34
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rosmaitaalso, is tag application retroactive?16:34
rosmaitalike, the visibility thing we just went through16:34
rosmaitaare we doomed from ever getting the tag?16:34
rosmaitaif so, wild west time!16:35
edleaferosmaita: the tag is the TC's way of saying that "this project has achieved the stability as defined by x, y, and z..."16:35
cdentand it is at a point in time16:35
cdentfrom release X, this project's api is stable16:35
cdents/api is/is asserting its api is/16:35
edleaferosmaita: Not having the tag just means that a consumer cannot rely on that project to have as stable an API as OpenStack would like16:35
rosmaitathough that's not much help to people who want to use release Y16:35
rosmaitaok, thanks, maybe i've been thinking about this the wrong way16:36
edleafeprojects don't adopt that tag16:36
edleafeIt's assigned to them, based on the guidelines under discussion16:37
cdentedleafe: that's not entirely true16:37
edleafecdent: oh? Enlighten me16:37
cdentthe assertion tags (which this one is) are chosen by a project16:37
cdentand they are responsible for making that assertion16:37
cdentthe TC has to validate the gerrit change16:38
cdentbut the projects make it16:38
edleafeI understood that to be more procedural16:38
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edleafeInstead of the TC constantly combing the projects and evaluating each one16:38
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edleafewhen a project feels that it's ready, it creates the tag change16:39
edleafewhich is the signal to the TC16:39
cdentan assertion tag is described as "self-imposed contract"16:40
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edleafeSo a project can propose the tag change as much as they want, but it is the TC that always approves it16:40
rosmaitaso, tbh, the reason i've been stubborn about that bug mentioned earlier, is that i'm trying to figure out what kind of "compatibility" we're talking about -- consistency across APIs or IE-style sitck-with-what-you've-got16:41
cdentI think it is more that a project can choose _not_ to propose the tag16:41
edleafecdent: well, yeah, that's the flip side of the definition16:41
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cdentedleafe: and given rosmaita's concerns I'd be hard pressed to understand why any project (which didn't have microversions) would ever want to16:42
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cdentrosmaita: from my perception of the people responding on the guidelines it is "ie-style stick-with-what-you've-got for ever and ever amen"16:42
cdentexcept that16:42
cdentfor those project that have microversions there is an immediately accessible get out of jail free card16:43
cdentexcept that card is only useful to developers of the project16:43
rosmaitahopefully this is not off topic, but what are the deprecation rules for microversions?16:43
cdentnot really all that useful to users of the api16:43
cdentrosmaita: again depends on who you talk to16:43
edleaferosmaita: my take is that you cannot change an API, except if not changing it causes more pain that doing so16:43
cdentsome people say never16:43
edleaferosmaita: that's a very high bar to cross16:43
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scottdaedleafe: My take is you can change an api (to a new microversion) but not remove the old one.16:45
edleaferosmaita: technically, a project could document that after a cycle, the minumum supported microversion will be a number higher than the current minimum16:45
rosmaitaedleafe: that makes sense, it would give people some time to adjust16:45
edleaferosmaita: but, at least among Nova, we've said that that will probably never happen16:45
scottdaMost in Cinder say it will never happen16:45
cdentedleafe: that would violate the stability guidelines, if they are being followed to the letter of some people's laws16:45
cdentthere is a vocal body of people who think none of the http apis should be deprecated ever16:46
cdentthere is a much less vocal body that thinks this allows tech debt to live forever16:46
edleafecdent: sure, but nova has already indicated that it will break stability by dropping the code to support nova-network16:46
scottdaI'd like to see a conversation about changing our understanding of microversions to allow incrementing the major version for a breaking change.16:47
edleafeNo one wants to support that rotting bit of tech debt16:47
cdentWe've got 13 minutes before we finish up. I feel like we're going round (and have been going round) in circles on this topic and I'm not sure what to do about it.16:48
scottdaMaybe we can mark things as "unsupported" and stay away from "deprecated"16:48
edleafescottda: there is no concept of "major version" with microversions16:48
etoewsrosmaita with respect to deprecation, it's if you assert that tag16:48
etoewsif you don't assert that tag then ¯\_(ツ)_/¯16:48
scottdaedleafe: I know.16:48
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scottdaedleafe: But to me, that is a cause of great confusion. We should just have microversions be interpreted as "versions" with the ability to bump both major and minor number16:49
edleafescottda: ah, ok. Some people think that since Nova's start at 2.1 and go up to 2.42 (now), at some point, we will go to 3.016:49
scottdaedleafe: Yes. IF nova removes nova networking (for example), go to 3.016:49
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scottdasure makes it easier to know when the change is, as opposed to "in microversion 2.87"16:49
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scottdaand makes it easier to explain to all the confused developers I work with...16:50
scottdawho hate microversions.16:50
edleafescottda: so no one will be able to request 2.21 anymore? Because that version won't have nova-network anymore, either16:50
scottdasure, you can request whatever "version" of the api you want...16:50
scottdausing the existing mechanism in the HTTP header16:51
scottdaIt's just a more user-friendly way of incrementing the numbers. Basically, semver16:51
edleafescottda: So at some point 2.x supports nova-net. Then nova-net is dropped. Now that same version number will behave differently16:51
scottdaedleafe: why would 2.x behave differently?16:52
scottdait's no different than microversions today16:52
etoewsat this point i think you're really just discussing deprecation16:52
edleafescottda: Because if you call a nova-net function as request version 2.x, it will no longer work16:52
scottdaif nova-net is dropped in 2.87,  you can use nova-net if you request 2.8516:52
edleafescottda: no16:53
edleafethe code is gone16:53
scottdaedleafe: Well, I'm assuming the code stays in the code base.16:53
cdentcompletely violating the microversion concept btw :)16:53
edleafescottda: that's the difference - it's gone16:53
cdent7 minutes16:53
scottdaedleafe: If the code is deleted, then all bets are off16:53
scottdaOK, we can talk more at the PTG16:53
edleafescottda: my point exactly16:53
edleafeLet's move on16:53
cdentYes, let's. Can people apply some of this enthusiams to the associated email threads and reviews (see link in the agenda).16:54
cdent#topic guidlines16:54
*** openstack changes topic to "guidlines (Meeting topic: api-wg)"16:54
cdentI thikn we can merge some stuff16:54
cdentthe stuff frozen last week didn't get any objects16:55
edleafeNot exactly controversial stuff :)16:55
cdenti'll merge (since I froze)16:55
edleafeHaven't gotten any more input on the boolean patch16:55
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edleafeIf people could go there just to register your preference for style, that would be a big help16:56
edleafeI.e.: 'is_enabled' or 'enabled' for naming16:57
cdent#action everyone look at to express preference on booleans16:57
etoewsi'm fine with it as written (hence my +1)16:57
cdentcapabilities is on the agenda (from several etherpads) for the ptg16:57
cdenti'm not sure on the status of pagination:
cdentany last words (I'll get the newsletter)16:59
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edleafeI'm good16:59
cdentthanks everyone for coming and trying to get to the bottom of things17:00
*** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings ||"17:00
openstackMeeting ended Thu Feb  2 17:00:09 2017 UTC.  Information about MeetBot at . (v 0.1.4)17:00
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