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| ativelkov | Hi folks | 14:59 |
|---|---|---|
| rakhmerov | hi there | 15:00 |
| ativelkov | Let's start the meeting | 15:00 |
| ativelkov | #startmetting Murano | 15:00 |
| ativelkov | #startmeeting Murano | 15:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Mon Oct 21 15:00:43 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ativelkov. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Murano)" | 15:00 | |
| gokrokve | Hi Alex | 15:00 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'murano' | 15:00 |
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| katyafervent | Hi guys! | 15:00 |
| akuznetsova | Hello | 15:00 |
| sergmelikyan | Hi! | 15:00 |
| tsufiev | hi there | 15:01 |
| ativelkov | Cool, lot's of people ) | 15:01 |
| stanlagun | hi all! | 15:01 |
| ativelkov | We have an agenda here: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/MuranoAgenda#Agenda | 15:01 |
| ogelbukh | o/ | 15:02 |
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| ativelkov | So, let's start with the review of the previous week's AIs | 15:02 |
| ativelkov | #topic AI review | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "AI review (Meeting topic: Murano)" | 15:02 | |
| ativelkov | Here we have this list: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/murano/2013/murano.2013-10-14-15.01.html | 15:02 |
| ativelkov | So, about backporting of our Heat patches: according to Heat team, these were not bugs, but rather features, so backporting of them to grizzly branch is forbidden | 15:03 |
| ativelkov | so, we will not be able to commit our backports to official grizzly branch | 15:04 |
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| ativelkov | That is why we will have to distribute release 0.3 either without quantum support at all, or include patches to Heat with our distribution | 15:05 |
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| katyafervent | Does this fix present in havana? Do we fully support it? | 15:06 |
| ativelkov | Of course, we may use custom for of Heat repository for this as well, but this is not a good practice and should be avoided for public releases | 15:06 |
| ativelkov | katyafervent, Most of them are present, yes | 15:06 |
| ogelbukh | eltn | 15:06 |
| ogelbukh | oh | 15:06 |
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| ativelkov | however, there was one fix (made by sergmelikyan) which did not get accepted before the check-in gate was closed, so it will get only to icehouse branch | 15:07 |
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| gokrokve | Can we offer quantum as optional for release 0.3? | 15:08 |
| ativelkov | gokrokve, yes, I think so | 15:08 |
| gokrokve | I mean on the code level are there any hard dependencies for Quantum? | 15:08 |
| ativelkov | Not on the code level | 15:08 |
| ativelkov | And the question is not quantum itself | 15:09 |
| ativelkov | question is limited support for quantum in Heat | 15:09 |
| tnurlygayanov | so, we will not support nova network in release-0.3.... | 15:10 |
| ativelkov | for example, grizzly Quantum support security groups on the port level, but grizzly Heat does not fully support this feature | 15:10 |
| ativelkov | tnurlygayanov, I would suggest to support it "out-of-the-box" | 15:10 |
| ativelkov | I mean, the default templates which we distribute with Murano should be targeting Nova Network | 15:11 |
| tnurlygayanov | ativelkov: but we should have prepared patch for this | 15:11 |
| ativelkov | but we should include an archive with the quantum-ready templates | 15:11 |
| tnurlygayanov | yes | 15:11 |
| ativelkov | and include a manual how to a) substitute the NN templates with the Quantum ones b) patch Heat | 15:12 |
| ativelkov | by the way, NN templates will work with Quantum as well, but the set of functionality will be different | 15:12 |
| tnurlygayanov | it is should be 'one magic command', not complex document ) | 15:13 |
| gokrokve | Still it should be documented in installation guide. | 15:13 |
| ativelkov | #info The default templates which we distribute with Murano should be targeting Nova Network, but we will include an archive with the quantum-ready templates and ways to migrate and patch the Heat | 15:13 |
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| ativelkov | gokrokve, yes, we should provide a detailed explanation | 15:14 |
| ativelkov | patching an infrustructure-level component should not be done blindly | 15:14 |
| ativelkov | but an easy-to-use authomation script is also a good idea | 15:15 |
| akuznetsova | btw I created task in jira that we need to update our documentation before release | 15:15 |
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| ativelkov | Thanks, akuznetsova | 15:15 |
| ativelkov | Two other action items are related to r0.3 task synchronization. sergmelikyan, can you provide an update on the release status and what is going to be included there? | 15:16 |
| sergmelikyan | We had synchronized all tasks for 0.3 | 15:17 |
| ativelkov | what about Murano Panel? Have you decided if it should be part of 0.3 or not? | 15:18 |
| sergmelikyan | We have several major features: Support for Managing Linux Instances, Usage of Quantum and ability to mark images in glance via UI | 15:19 |
| sergmelikyan | Panel (actually Dashboard in terms of Horizon) not going to be introduced in 0.3 | 15:19 |
| tsufiev | ativelkov: it is simple to implement on its own, but can potentially break many things in 0.3 | 15:20 |
| ativelkov | so, we'll have the same UI layout for 0.3? | 15:20 |
| tsufiev | ativelkov: yes | 15:20 |
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| ativelkov | #info new leyout of Murano Dashboard will not be included with the release 0.3 and is postponed till 0.4 | 15:21 |
| ativelkov | OK, next AI (we have quite a lot of them btw) | 15:21 |
| ativelkov | tnurlygayanov, what about the test plan for release-0.3? | 15:22 |
| tnurlygayanov | ativelkov: we are working on it... | 15:23 |
| ativelkov | any estimations? | 15:23 |
| tnurlygayanov | and also on automated testing for all services and new workflows with automated testing inside the workflows. | 15:23 |
| tnurlygayanov | yes, I plan to finish for 2 days. | 15:24 |
| tnurlygayanov | and it will not only for release-0.3 test plan, also for 0.4 too. | 15:24 |
| ativelkov | #info Release 0.3 test plan is in progress, as well as updated automation testing scenarios. The ETA is 2 days | 15:24 |
| ativelkov | good, thanks | 15:24 |
| ativelkov | Last AI is on me | 15:25 |
| ativelkov | I asked Boris to do some follow up on Mistral announcement | 15:26 |
| ativelkov | It turns out that he didn't get enough time for this, as he is quite busy with his own releases | 15:26 |
| ativelkov | But we still get some community responses to the announcement | 15:27 |
| rakhmerov | can we ask him provide some feedback on the tech docs we have? | 15:27 |
| ativelkov | I asked, but he said that he is too busy now, probably later | 15:28 |
| rakhmerov | his opinion should be valuable due to his specific experience | 15:28 |
| ativelkov | As far as I understood he is interested in Taskflow library, so he should probably have some attention to Mistral as well | 15:28 |
| rakhmerov | yes, I know but I meant ask him to do that before the next meeting or so | 15:28 |
| ativelkov | I'll try | 15:28 |
| rakhmerov | ok, thanks | 15:28 |
| ativelkov | So, seems like we are done with AIs | 15:29 |
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| gokrokve | Did we test Linux Agent? | 15:29 |
| gokrokve | Is it ready for delivery? | 15:29 |
| ativelkov | Yes | 15:29 |
| ativelkov | But with quite a simple scenario by now | 15:29 |
| gokrokve | Do we have example workflow for it? | 15:30 |
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| ativelkov | we simply deploy telnet | 15:30 |
| ativelkov | #topic Release-0.3 | 15:30 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Release-0.3 (Meeting topic: Murano)" | 15:30 | |
| ativelkov | #info LinuxAgent is ready to be delivered in Release-0.3, with simplest possible deployment workflow | 15:31 |
| ativelkov | sergmelikyan, do we have anything important to discuss about 0.3? | 15:31 |
| ativelkov | what are the open issues there, etc? | 15:32 |
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| rakhmerov | sorry, a quick note/question: as for LinuxAgent, should we start calling it PythonAgent meaning it can be used not on Linux only? | 15:33 |
| gokrokve | Yes. | 15:33 |
| rakhmerov | or it's already been discussed and approved? | 15:33 |
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| ativelkov | well, we were calling it Unified (vNext) Agent | 15:33 |
| gokrokve | LinuxAgent is not an official name. We use it just to highlight that it works on Linux. | 15:33 |
| gokrokve | remove vNext. Nobody understands that. | 15:34 |
| rakhmerov | right, however it may get people confused | 15:34 |
| rakhmerov | who is right here, ha :) | 15:34 |
| rakhmerov | Unified Agent seems to be ok | 15:35 |
| sergmelikyan | ativelkov, right now we don't have any outstanding issues | 15:35 |
| rakhmerov | sorry for interrupting, back to open issues | 15:35 |
| ativelkov | sergmelikyan, what are our estimation on release date? | 15:36 |
| katyafervent | So we just selected official name - Unified Agent? | 15:36 |
| rakhmerov | I would suggest so | 15:36 |
| stanlagun | I guess official name for Murano Agent is Murano Agent :) | 15:36 |
| ativelkov | katyafervent, the idea is that we have a unified agent specification (the one which is available at https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Murano/UnifiedAgent) | 15:37 |
| ativelkov | the name of the exact implementation does not matter much, as we expect that other implementations may appear | 15:38 |
| sergmelikyan | ativelkov, end of October, first days of November | 15:38 |
| ativelkov | sergmelikyan, thanks | 15:38 |
| ativelkov | #info Release0.3 is on its way, no outstanding issues, release planned to end of October-beginning of November | 15:38 |
| ativelkov | Ok | 15:39 |
| ativelkov | #topic Networking Changes for 0.4 | 15:39 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Networking Changes for 0.4 (Meeting topic: Murano)" | 15:39 | |
| ativelkov | So, we have an important question to discuss | 15:40 |
| ativelkov | It turns oput that we will to introduce a new major feature in Release 0.4 | 15:40 |
| ativelkov | turns out* | 15:40 |
| ativelkov | In quantum-enabled version of 0.3 we have isolated each environment into is own L2-segment | 15:41 |
| ativelkov | I.e. each env creates its own network with its own subnet, then creates a router and then plugs this router to some external network | 15:42 |
| gokrokve | Did you test that with Quantum VM still able to communicate with RabbitMQ? | 15:42 |
| ativelkov | Yes, sure | 15:42 |
| ativelkov | the deployments are successfull | 15:43 |
| ativelkov | The problem is with the IP range of the external network | 15:43 |
| ativelkov | Our approach means one router per environment | 15:43 |
| ativelkov | and each router in external network obviously consumes 1 IP address from its range | 15:43 |
| ativelkov | And these IP{ addresses are quite a valuable resource | 15:44 |
| ativelkov | The proper way of doing these should be different | 15:44 |
| ativelkov | we should have a single Router per tenant | 15:44 |
| ativelkov | and plug all the Networks of this tenant into this router | 15:45 |
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| ativelkov | But to do this we will have to define non-overlapping subnets | 15:45 |
| tnurlygayanov | probably we can configure some 'murano' router and assign all networks to this router | 15:46 |
| ativelkov | tnurlygayanov, the proper solution should be more complex | 15:46 |
| tnurlygayanov | and user will select new network range for new environment | 15:46 |
| tnurlygayanov | ok) need to describe arch in images | 15:46 |
| tnurlygayanov | it will more clear for everyone | 15:47 |
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| ativelkov | Yes. I am writing a new document on this topic right now | 15:47 |
| gokrokve | ok. We need to document this. It is not self obvious about Quantum networking topologies. | 15:47 |
| ativelkov | #action ativelkov to complete the "Per Environment Network Management" document | 15:48 |
| rakhmerov | so we should have something like subnet booking mechanism? | 15:48 |
| ativelkov | rakhmerov, yes | 15:48 |
| rakhmerov | gotcha | 15:48 |
| ativelkov | Also, we should allow the user to select an existing network for the new environment | 15:48 |
| ativelkov | (we had similar blueprint for security groups) | 15:49 |
| ativelkov | but this should be an advanced option | 15:49 |
| rakhmerov | probably we could provide two options and let the users make a choice | 15:49 |
| ativelkov | yup | 15:49 |
| rakhmerov | one the options is by default | 15:49 |
| ativelkov | but the default should be simple and secure | 15:49 |
| rakhmerov | right | 15:49 |
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| ativelkov | e.g. by default, a new network is created per environment, as subnet is allocated accordign to the existing subnets, and the network is plugged to some default router | 15:50 |
| ativelkov | and in advanced scenarios user will be able to override any of these defaults (i.e. choose existing network, or modify the ip range, or choose the router, etc) | 15:50 |
| ativelkov | As I said, I will complete the spec and will submit the blueprint | 15:51 |
| rakhmerov | ok | 15:51 |
| ativelkov | Seems like we are done with this topic, let's move on | 15:51 |
| ativelkov | #topic Open Discussion | 15:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: Murano)" | 15:51 | |
| ativelkov | :) | 15:51 |
| rakhmerov | the most pleasant one :) | 15:52 |
| ativelkov | yeah. So, any questions, guys? | 15:52 |
| katyafervent | Nope, thanks for making all questions clear | 15:53 |
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| ativelkov | Alright, so we are probably done | 15:54 |
| ativelkov | Just do not forget that we have a Mistral meeting in 6 minutes | 15:54 |
| rakhmerov | yes, sure | 15:54 |
| ativelkov | It's in different channel, #openstack-meeting | 15:54 |
| tnurlygayanov | ok ) got to the next meeting ) | 15:54 |
| sergmelikyan | And in another channel ;) | 15:54 |
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| ativelkov | so, thanks for joining and see you soon | 15:55 |
| ativelkov | #endmeeting | 15:55 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings (alternate)" | 15:55 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Mon Oct 21 15:55:12 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:55 |
| rakhmerov | yep, thank you | 15:55 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/murano/2013/murano.2013-10-21-15.00.html | 15:55 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/murano/2013/murano.2013-10-21-15.00.txt | 15:55 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/murano/2013/murano.2013-10-21-15.00.log.html | 15:55 |
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| alcabrera | o/ | 16:00 |
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| kgriffs | Marconi time | 16:00 |
| malini | o/ | 16:01 |
| flaper87 | \o/ | 16:01 |
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| kgriffs | ok, looks like we've got a good crew together | 16:03 |
| kgriffs | #startmeeting marconi | 16:03 |
| openstack | Meeting started Mon Oct 21 16:03:26 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is kgriffs. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:03 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: marconi)" | 16:03 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'marconi' | 16:03 |
| flaper87 | <o/ \o> | 16:03 |
| kgriffs | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Marconi#Agenda | 16:03 |
| kgriffs | #topic Review teh actionz from teh last timez | 16:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review teh actionz from teh last timez (Meeting topic: marconi)" | 16:04 | |
| flaper87 | :D | 16:04 |
| kgriffs | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/marconi/2013/marconi.2013-10-07-16.03.html | 16:04 |
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| kgriffs | so, looks like flaper87 was the only one with anything to do this past week. | 16:04 |
| kgriffs | ;) | 16:04 |
| alcabrera | lol | 16:04 |
| flaper87 | erm, mmh, erm erm mmhh | 16:05 |
| flaper87 | I totally failed on that but I got feedback on the devstack patch | 16:05 |
| flaper87 | does that count? | 16:05 |
| flaper87 | :D | 16:05 |
| kgriffs | heh | 16:05 |
| flaper87 | I'll get to it this week | 16:05 |
| flaper87 | promissed | 16:05 |
| kgriffs | #action flaper87 to research heat | 16:06 |
| kgriffs | ok | 16:06 |
| kgriffs | otherwise | 16:06 |
| kgriffs | quick not regarding API freeze | 16:06 |
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| kgriffs | as Murphy's Law dictates, immediately after freezing the API we started getting people complaining about certain aspects of it | 16:06 |
| kgriffs | So, i started a page to track feedback. We will need to review it at some point. | 16:07 |
| kgriffs | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Marconi/specs/api/next | 16:07 |
| zyuan | :) | 16:07 |
| alcabrera | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Marconi/specs/api/next | 16:07 |
| alcabrera | #info Now tracking API feedback for future versions. | 16:07 |
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| flaper87 | interesting notes | 16:08 |
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| flaper87 | I would like us to break them down on an etherpad / bugs and comment there | 16:08 |
| flaper87 | I can help with bugs creation | 16:08 |
| kgriffs | yeah, let's hold off for a bit and see what else comes in | 16:09 |
| flaper87 | sure, I'd say we should start putting them in an etherpad then | 16:09 |
| zyuan | i think we need to discuss them first | 16:09 |
| kgriffs | fwiw, I thought this post was pretty relevant. ;) | 16:09 |
| flaper87 | and add some comments | 16:09 |
| kgriffs | http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2013/09/when-to-speak-up.html | 16:09 |
| flaper87 | heheh | 16:10 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: let me set that up for next week. We've got sharding to focus on for now. | 16:10 |
| alcabrera | yup - speak up before it is done, though getting people to break the inertia before use is tough. :P | 16:10 |
| flaper87 | yeah, I meant to do it off-line | 16:10 |
| flaper87 | not right now | 16:10 |
| flaper87 | sorry for not being explicit enough :D | 16:10 |
| kgriffs | ok, feel free to set up etherpadz or whateverz | 16:10 |
| flaper87 | okeyz | 16:11 |
| flaper87 | neeeext topicz | 16:11 |
| flaper87 | :D | 16:11 |
| kgriffs | #topic teh updatez on teh shardzes | 16:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "teh updatez on teh shardzes (Meeting topic: marconi)" | 16:11 | |
| alcabrera | lol | 16:11 |
| alcabrera | yeah, there's a lot going on there~ | 16:12 |
| * flaper87 didn't know kgriffs knows french | 16:12 | |
| alcabrera | So, with a link to summarize the state of things | 16:12 |
| alcabrera | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/sharding-merge-strategy | 16:12 |
| alcabrera | Wr've gotten a lot of the foundational stuff down. | 16:12 |
| alcabrera | *We've | 16:12 |
| alcabrera | Pipeline enhancements, a sharding driver stubbed out | 16:13 |
| alcabrera | It's been a load of development towards making sharding a real thing. | 16:13 |
| alcabrera | (for marconi) | 16:13 |
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| alcabrera | the proposed admin API is currently under review | 16:13 |
| alcabrera | once that's merged, we'll have a sharding and a catalogue queues storage driver for controlling shard registration | 16:14 |
| kgriffs | ok, any big questions or concerns or blockers? | 16:15 |
| zyuan | requires_mongodb | 16:15 |
| flaper87 | not from me! | 16:15 |
| zyuan | does not work T_T | 16:15 |
| alcabrera | the only blocker is already being addressed - let's keep reviewing the admin API branch and get those storage drivers in. :) | 16:15 |
| flaper87 | The whole idea and work looks good | 16:15 |
| flaper87 | zyuan: mmh, it does work for here :( | 16:15 |
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| kgriffs | ok, rock on | 16:16 |
| zyuan | just not on jenkins with py26. discuss latter. | 16:16 |
| kgriffs | we'll continue working through those patches in #openstack-marconi | 16:16 |
| alcabrera | awesome | 16:16 |
| kgriffs | #topic The future of the proxy | 16:16 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "The future of the proxy (Meeting topic: marconi)" | 16:16 | |
| * alcabrera notes how serious the tone suddenly became - 90% fewer z's | 16:17 | |
| alcabrera | *100% | 16:17 |
| * kgriffs has to budget his z's - doesn't want to run out early | 16:18 | |
| alcabrera | kgriffs: want to lead the discussion on this one? | 16:18 |
| kgriffs | sure | 16:18 |
| kgriffs | so, given that we will have storage-layer sharding | 16:18 |
| kgriffs | how far will that allow Marconi to scale? | 16:18 |
| kgriffs | (without any proxy thingy) | 16:19 |
| flaper87 | Far enough, imho! | 16:19 |
| alcabrera | it seems like it would go for some time. Some potential bottlenecks are CPU/connections|node, but those seem far off atm. | 16:19 |
| flaper87 | I was also thinking that Marconi it'sef could be use as a shard in case of more partitions are needed | 16:20 |
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| flaper87 | meaning, we coul have a Marconi storage backend that talks to a remote Marconi server | 16:20 |
| flaper87 | in case that's ever needed | 16:20 |
| kgriffs | my mind just exploded | 16:20 |
| flaper87 | LOL | 16:21 |
| kgriffs | cool idea | 16:21 |
| alcabrera | lol | 16:21 |
| alcabrera | That's like nova in docker in nova in... | 16:21 |
| flaper87 | :D | 16:21 |
| flaper87 | I'll create a bp for that then :D | 16:21 |
| amitgandhi | so a marconi storage backend would talk to another marconi transport? | 16:22 |
| kgriffs | ok, so the proposal is to stamp a big-ole YAGNI on the proxy? | 16:22 |
| alcabrera | That's my favored outcome for the proxy. | 16:22 |
| flaper87 | I'd say so | 16:22 |
| flaper87 | amitgandhi: yeah, it'd talk to another Marconi | 16:22 |
| flaper87 | that bp will obviously depend on the client being ready | 16:23 |
| alcabrera | That'd be -2372 LOC for removing the proxy - easier to manage. | 16:23 |
| flaper87 | shall we vote? | 16:23 |
| amitgandhi | biggest fear there for me is the latency of it | 16:23 |
| alcabrera | flaper87: good idea | 16:23 |
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| kgriffs | #startvote Remove the proxy, salvaging what we can for the sharding feature? Yes, No, Abstain | 16:23 |
| openstack | Begin voting on: Remove the proxy, salvaging what we can for the sharding feature? Valid vote options are Yes, No, Abstain. | 16:23 |
| openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 16:23 |
| flaper87 | amitgandhi: yeah, that needs to be examined a lot! | 16:23 |
| alcabrera | #vote yes | 16:23 |
| flaper87 | #vote yes | 16:23 |
| amitgandhi | #vote yes | 16:23 |
| zyuan | #vote Abstain | 16:24 |
| kgriffs | #vote yez | 16:24 |
| openstack | kgriffs: yez is not a valid option. Valid options are Yes, No, Abstain. | 16:24 |
| alcabrera | lol | 16:24 |
| zyuan | ... | 16:24 |
| * kgriffs bots have no humor | 16:24 | |
| kgriffs | #vote yes | 16:24 |
| kgriffs | going once... | 16:25 |
| kgriffs | twice... | 16:25 |
| zyuan | when? | 16:25 |
| kgriffs | #endvote | 16:25 |
| openstack | Voted on "Remove the proxy, salvaging what we can for the sharding feature?" Results are | 16:25 |
| openstack | Yes (4): amitgandhi, alcabrera, kgriffs, flaper87 | 16:25 |
| openstack | Abstain (1): zyuan | 16:25 |
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| kgriffs | ok, once sharding is packaged up with a pretty bow, we can nuke the proxy code | 16:25 |
| zyuan | ok | 16:25 |
| kgriffs | let's leave it around until then for reference | 16:25 |
| zyuan | +1 | 16:26 |
| alcabrera | I've already started the salvaging process. | 16:26 |
| kgriffs | anything else on that topic? | 16:26 |
| alcabrera | the admin API feature branch used many of the idioms and storage patterns I put together while working on the proxy. | 16:26 |
| alcabrera | *uses | 16:26 |
| alcabrera | Plus, it has pagination. :P | 16:26 |
| alcabrera | Anyway, that's it from me on the proxy. | 16:27 |
| alcabrera | (nuke it from orbit) | 16:27 |
| kgriffs | #topic API Spec server sidez | 16:27 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "API Spec server sidez (Meeting topic: marconi)" | 16:27 | |
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| alcabrera | more zzzzs | 16:27 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 16:27 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 16:27 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: go for it | 16:27 |
| flaper87 | o/ | 16:27 |
| * flaper87 runs towards it | 16:27 | |
| * flaper87 is still running | 16:27 | |
| * flaper87 is getting tired | 16:27 | |
| * flaper87 fainted | 16:27 | |
| flaper87 | ok | 16:27 |
| flaper87 | seriously | 16:28 |
| zyuan | that's the first issue? | 16:28 |
| flaper87 | The idea there is to have something similar to what we have in the client but adapted a bit for the server | 16:28 |
| flaper87 | it all starts from the thought that we don't have a good way to version our server-side API | 16:28 |
| flaper87 | ... yet. | 16:28 |
| flaper87 | so, this is what we've in the client | 16:28 |
| flaper87 | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/50638/7/marconiclient/queues/v1/api.py | 16:29 |
| flaper87 | In that JSON, I'm specifying the API that can be validated with json schema. | 16:29 |
| flaper87 | (if needed) | 16:29 |
| flaper87 | although it seems a bit HTTP tight, it actually isn't. | 16:30 |
| flaper87 | The whole point is that HTTP is the most partitioned protocol we have right now | 16:30 |
| flaper87 | other protocols can simple translate that to something they need | 16:30 |
| flaper87 | and can use | 16:30 |
| flaper87 | so, hope that explains a bit the idea | 16:31 |
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| flaper87 | thoughts so far? | 16:31 |
| alcabrera | it's true - zmq is just data + Maybe framing | 16:31 |
| alcabrera | HTTP is a bit more enveloped | 16:31 |
| alcabrera | I don;t know about websockets | 16:31 |
| alcabrera | And I'm pretty sure nanomsg is similar to zmq (data + Maybe frames) | 16:31 |
| flaper87 | For example, current wsgi controllers would register routes based on that dict | 16:31 |
| zyuan | zmq's frame is invisible | 16:31 |
| alcabrera | zyuan: it's invisible as long as you don't use the XSUB/XPUB patterns | 16:32 |
| zyuan | :( | 16:32 |
| alcabrera | flaper87: as for the idea in general, I'm pretty positive towards it. | 16:32 |
| alcabrera | It seems like it would greatly reduce the effort required to add a new transport. | 16:32 |
| * flaper87 is pretty sure it'll need tweaked a bit | 16:33 | |
| flaper87 | need to be* | 16:33 |
| alcabrera | Instead of implementing each of the resources for each protocol, it seems like only the low-level transport.api.py.thing would have to be implemented | 16:33 |
| flaper87 | but, yeah, the idea is to have a well defined API schema | 16:33 |
| alcabrera | and the resources just use the appropriate lower-level to forward/serialize data. | 16:33 |
| alcabrera | I'm +2 on the API schema | 16:34 |
| kgriffs | hmm | 16:34 |
| flaper87 | that would also give us a home endpoint for free and eventually help us a lot with API discovery | 16:35 |
| flaper87 | also, it will unified the API definition throughout transports | 16:35 |
| flaper87 | as for now, we basically need to 'define' it for each transport | 16:36 |
| kgriffs | so, the proposal is to define the API using json-schema | 16:36 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: ish, the idea is to have an API schema. Jsonschema has proven to be good for the job | 16:36 |
| flaper87 | it can be validated but it doesn't "have to" plus, it is flexible enough | 16:37 |
| kgriffs | so, one schema that all the transports are based on? | 16:37 |
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| flaper87 | kgriffs: yup | 16:37 |
| flaper87 | Transport would get an 'Api' instance that they'll use to 'register' endpoints | 16:38 |
| flaper87 | that Api instance contains the API version, schema and other things related to the API | 16:38 |
| flaper87 | this is what the base API looks like in the client https://github.com/openstack/python-marconiclient/blob/master/marconiclient/transport/api.py | 16:39 |
| flaper87 | #link https://github.com/openstack/python-marconiclient/blob/master/marconiclient/transport/api.py | 16:39 |
| flaper87 | I can work on a POC for it | 16:39 |
| flaper87 | and we can discuss it a bit further based on that | 16:40 |
| alcabrera | flaper87: To some extent, the client impl. is a pre-POC. :D | 16:40 |
| flaper87 | alcabrera: good point :D | 16:40 |
| kgriffs | yeah, let's do that | 16:40 |
| * flaper87 takes that back | 16:40 | |
| flaper87 | damn | 16:40 |
| alcabrera | lol | 16:40 |
| * flaper87 facepalm | 16:40 | |
| kgriffs | ? | 16:40 |
| flaper87 | :P | 16:40 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: just kidding! | 16:40 |
| flaper87 | I'll do some experiments on marconi-queues | 16:41 |
| flaper87 | and show the results | 16:41 |
| flaper87 | but I'd like to get a general thought now about the whole idea | 16:41 |
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| flaper87 | if you guys see some limitations | 16:41 |
| flaper87 | etc | 16:41 |
| kgriffs | do you see this complicating, simplifying, or keeping the WSGI driver code the same? | 16:42 |
| kgriffs | (keeping roughly same in complexity, I mean) | 16:42 |
| flaper87 | I see this simplifying the WSGI code | 16:42 |
| kgriffs | in what ways? | 16:42 |
| flaper87 | 1) The way routes are being defined, 2) We could reuse Controller classes in different versions | 16:44 |
| flaper87 | Number 2 obviously depends on the changes between versions | 16:44 |
| flaper87 | but what it definitely improves is API's consistency between transports | 16:45 |
| flaper87 | let me work on a POC | 16:45 |
| flaper87 | I think that will make this clearer | 16:45 |
| kgriffs | #action flaper87 to work on a POC for server API schema thingy | 16:46 |
| alcabrera | awesome. That'll be good to see growing. :) | 16:46 |
| flaper87 | cool | 16:46 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: i think I see where you are headed | 16:46 |
| kgriffs | btw, could you also consider the question of api extensions? | 16:47 |
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| flaper87 | kgriffs: yes, will do! | 16:47 |
| kgriffs | just want to make sure whatever we implement takes that into consideration | 16:47 |
| kgriffs | ok | 16:47 |
| flaper87 | any thoughts so far? | 16:47 |
| flaper87 | like "WTF are you planning?" or "Yup, that could work" | 16:47 |
| kgriffs | so, I like the idea of defining the API in code, rather than on a wiki page | 16:47 |
| alcabrera | kgriffs: +1 | 16:48 |
| flaper87 | +1 | 16:48 |
| flaper87 | we can generate Wiki pages out of it | 16:48 |
| flaper87 | :D | 16:48 |
| flaper87 | ok, cool! | 16:48 |
| alcabrera | It gives us the opportunity to - yes, that | 16:48 |
| alcabrera | ^ | 16:48 |
| flaper87 | lets move on | 16:48 |
| flaper87 | there are other topics to talk about | 16:48 |
| alcabrera | next topic? | 16:48 |
| kgriffs | yeah, the basic idea is good, I just want to make sure it doesn't unnecessarily complicate the transport drivers | 16:48 |
| kgriffs | #topic API versioning strategy? | 16:49 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "API versioning strategy? (Meeting topic: marconi)" | 16:49 | |
| kgriffs | so, I put out some feelers re api versioning a few weeks back | 16:49 |
| kgriffs | it sounds like the community prefers extensions and major api revs over media type versioning | 16:49 |
| kgriffs | does that sound about right? | 16:50 |
| zyuan | only media type? | 16:50 |
| zyuan | without url? | 16:50 |
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| kgriffs | like, if a client requests queues/my-queue/messages with | 16:50 |
| kgriffs | accept: application/vnd.openstack.marconi.messages.v2 | 16:50 |
| kgriffs | then we return a different representation of the messages resource | 16:51 |
| zyuan | :( that will be curl un-friendly | 16:51 |
| alcabrera | hmmm... | 16:51 |
| kgriffs | so, this is the recommended approach instead - http://www.infoq.com/presentations/OpenStack-Extensions | 16:52 |
| kgriffs | (from what I could gather) | 16:52 |
| kgriffs | that's my first thought | 16:52 |
| alcabrera | Cool, I'll check that out. | 16:52 |
| kgriffs | second is whether to target v2 API for Havana, or stick with v1 plus maybe some extensions | 16:52 |
| kgriffs | #link http://www.infoq.com/presentations/OpenStack-Extensions | 16:52 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: Icehouse, you mena | 16:53 |
| flaper87 | mena | 16:53 |
| flaper87 | mean | 16:53 |
| kgriffs | oops, yeah | 16:53 |
| kgriffs | Icehouse | 16:53 |
| * alcabrera kgriffs is a time traveler | 16:53 | |
| alcabrera | **notices | 16:53 |
| zyuan | kgriffs: can briefly introduce the link above? | 16:53 |
| kgriffs | the idea being, we start out with a polished API for our first integrated release | 16:53 |
| kgriffs | zyuan: basically, you allow api extensions by introducing new resources (with new URLs), new headers, etc. | 16:53 |
| alcabrera | Icehouse is expected for 2014-04-04 | 16:53 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: we could also target some minor releases for v1 depending on what needs to be changed | 16:54 |
| alcabrera | #info Icehouse is expected for 2014-04-04 | 16:54 |
| flaper87 | lets note that our client doens't fully support v1 yet | 16:54 |
| kgriffs | you also provide a way for clients to discover said extensions | 16:54 |
| flaper87 | it'd be a bit ackward to release API v2 and leave the client behind | 16:54 |
| flaper87 | although that clients have a different release cycle | 16:54 |
| kgriffs | yes, i agree | 16:54 |
| zyuan | what an api extension looks like? | 16:54 |
| kgriffs | well, v2 would be a minor bump i suppose | 16:55 |
| kgriffs | i guess we could just do v1.1 instead | 16:55 |
| * flaper87 votes for 1.1 | 16:55 | |
| flaper87 | 1 -> 2 will create a LOT of confussion | 16:55 |
| alcabrera | v1.1 works for me, given the changes requested are rather small atm | 16:55 |
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| alcabrera | v2.0 makes me think of routing/exchanges and tags/topics | 16:56 |
| kgriffs | that would be more open-stacky, although the RESTafarian in me screams our in agony | 16:56 |
| kgriffs | flaper87: noted | 16:56 |
| kgriffs | ok, so let's think about doing a v1.1 for Icehouse | 16:56 |
| zyuan | /v1.1/ ? | 16:56 |
| zyuan | if so, LGTM | 16:57 |
| kgriffs | then 2.0 stuff we want to start working on we can have first as extensions - that will force us to start making extensions work for 3rd-parties | 16:57 |
| kgriffs | zyuan: right | 16:57 |
| zyuan | actually, i think we can provide extension between releases | 16:58 |
| flaper87 | plus, the summit is 2 weeks from tomorrow, we'll definitely get a lot of feedback tehre | 16:58 |
| flaper87 | there | 16:58 |
| zyuan | and merge them to new releases | 16:58 |
| flaper87 | we should also wait on that before taking any final decission | 16:58 |
| kgriffs | yeah, that is one of the purposes of extensions in general | 16:58 |
| zyuan | great | 16:58 |
| kgriffs | POCs | 16:58 |
| zyuan | we don't have much time left; can we discuss the object size / json doc length stuff? | 16:59 |
| kgriffs | yeah, just one moment | 16:59 |
| kgriffs | #info Target v1.1 for Icehouse | 16:59 |
| kgriffs | #topic Updates on bugs | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Updates on bugs (Meeting topic: marconi)" | 17:00 | |
| kgriffs | zyuan: go for it | 17:00 |
| zyuan | currently, we define document limit in terms of JSON char count | 17:00 |
| zyuan | but obviously that does not work for other content like msgpack | 17:00 |
| flaper87 | zyuan: just a comment about that review. I'm ok with marking WIP in the summary but lets also use the WIP button in gerrit, pls! I didn't notice it was a WIP and reviewed it | 17:00 |
| zyuan | LOL, ok... | 17:01 |
| flaper87 | :P | 17:01 |
| zyuan | in addition, currently the code run in production does not perform real JSON char count checking | 17:01 |
| zyuan | I short cut it with content-length checking | 17:02 |
| zyuan | but if we enable the JSON char count checking.... that would be not just a little slow | 17:02 |
| zyuan | so my proposal is to redefine "document size" | 17:02 |
| zyuan | -- in terms of the total size of sub obejcts | 17:02 |
| zyuan | for example, int and double has size 8 | 17:03 |
| zyuan | empty array, {} has size 8 | 17:03 |
| zyuan | etc. | 17:03 |
| zyuan | so that any type of media type can have same size | 17:03 |
| zyuan | and the checking is cheaper than JSON char count (unless we have a sizing parser in C) | 17:03 |
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| zyuan | prototype: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/51921/ | 17:04 |
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| zyuan | comment? | 17:04 |
| flaper87 | I like the idea overall, I'm a bit worried about the iteration cost (I mean, going deeper on nested objects) but I think that's still cheaper than counting chars | 17:05 |
| kgriffs | I think it would be helpful to have a python sizing parser as a baseline | 17:05 |
| alcabrera | The recursion is elegant, and I don't expect it to be too expensive CPU-wise. | 17:05 |
| kgriffs | given a dict, it walks it and counts up JSON chars | 17:05 |
| alcabrera | If this becomes a CPU-bound task, then pypy would likely shine here. | 17:06 |
| alcabrera | Given it's pure Python. | 17:06 |
| zyuan | then you pretty much need N iteration, where N is JSON char counts... | 17:06 |
| kgriffs | I am still concerned about confusion on the part of the users/library developers when they get back an error response and they have to figure out why their message was too large. | 17:06 |
| alcabrera | Err, becomes a CPU bottleneck | 17:06 |
| zyuan | it has to be done in C | 17:06 |
| flaper87 | alcabrera: yeah, but we can't expect all deployments to use pypy | 17:06 |
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| alcabrera | flaper87: true. :) | 17:06 |
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| zyuan | i implemented it with recusion just because i don't how to do it without | 17:07 |
| flaper87 | kgriffs: that also had me thinking | 17:07 |
| kgriffs | also, we don't have much data on average message complexity | 17:07 |
| kgriffs | only what we can extrapolate from Rackspace's use of the internal precursor to Marconi | 17:07 |
| zyuan | ... and i suspect a manual recursion to be even slower... | 17:07 |
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| zyuan | kgriffs: i hope so? | 17:08 |
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| kgriffs | i mean, if messages are usually not very complex, then we may be doing premature optimization here | 17:08 |
| kgriffs | but we are still speculating | 17:08 |
| ekarlso | is RAX using marconi or ? | 17:08 |
| flaper87 | I guess we could examine this a bit further and re-schedule the discussion | 17:09 |
| kgriffs | we use a primitive sort of Marconi called RSE (really simple events) | 17:09 |
| flaper87 | like I said, I like the idea overall | 17:09 |
| kgriffs | so, requirements | 17:09 |
| kgriffs | 1. Users must not be confused | 17:10 |
| kgriffs | 2. It needs to be fast for the common case | 17:10 |
| zyuan | (as a numerical anaysis user, i feel *really* confused with JSON char counts) | 17:10 |
| zyuan | (i agree, performance improvement, hopefully) | 17:11 |
| kgriffs | 3. Don't optimize prematurely; a naive python character counter may be good enough, for example | 17:11 |
| kgriffs | anyway, we are out of time | 17:11 |
| kgriffs | let's keep discussing | 17:11 |
| flaper87 | lets re-schedule this for next week | 17:11 |
| * flaper87 gtg now | 17:11 | |
| * kgriffs has to go too | 17:12 | |
| kgriffs | #endmeeting | 17:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack meetings (alternate)" | 17:12 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Mon Oct 21 17:12:06 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:12 |
| kgriffs | thanks! | 17:12 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/marconi/2013/marconi.2013-10-21-16.03.html | 17:12 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/marconi/2013/marconi.2013-10-21-16.03.txt | 17:12 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/marconi/2013/marconi.2013-10-21-16.03.log.html | 17:12 |
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