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| sarob | #startmeeting training-manuals | 15:01 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 12 15:01:46 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is sarob. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: training-manuals)" | 15:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'training_manuals' | 15:01 |
| sarob | who do we have this morning/evening? | 15:02 |
| alagalah | hey | 15:03 |
| sarob | morning | 15:03 |
| sarob | i was up late with pranav chatting, so he is prob sleeping | 15:04 |
| sarob | #topic training guides restructuring | 15:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "training guides restructuring (Meeting topic: training-manuals)" | 15:05 | |
| sarob | #link https://docs.google.com/a/yahoo-inc.com/drawings/d/1ju78O-PjkZIeSbpGkUndIohQeQy06QXseRPbCy2F6F8/edit?usp=sharing | 15:05 |
| alagalah | No access, I requested | 15:06 |
| *** demorris has quit IRC | 15:06 | |
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| sarob | access granted | 15:07 |
| alagalah | got it | 15:08 |
| sarob | i whiteboarded the conversion of install guides and aptira content | 15:08 |
| sarob | along with the actual training schedule | 15:09 |
| alagalah | Looks good | 15:09 |
| sarob | i realized we were trying to do too much with the associate guide | 15:09 |
| alagalah | This gives some nice context around the actual objective of a class | 15:10 |
| sarob | yeah, i think this is on the right track | 15:10 |
| alagalah | How does this change the structure? Does this mean cards need to be refactored to diffferent guides or is it a major re-write ? | 15:10 |
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| sarob | i think so | 15:11 |
| alagalah | Which ? | 15:11 |
| alagalah | Both ? | 15:11 |
| alagalah | :) | 15:11 |
| sarob | the content is the same but needs to be across two guides | 15:11 |
| sarob | two days of training | 15:11 |
| sarob | plus quizes and test | 15:12 |
| sarob | means very focused material | 15:12 |
| alagalah | That makes sense | 15:12 |
| sarob | we had more like two weeks | 15:12 |
| sarob | to teach | 15:12 |
| alagalah | Hmmm yeah the intro course needs to be short | 15:12 |
| sarob | once i wrote out the schedule, it was a head slap | 15:13 |
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| sarob | breaks, lunch, quizes, test | 15:13 |
| sarob | all eat into two days | 15:13 |
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| alagalah | Ok so what's next then? | 15:14 |
| alagalah | You need validation of your whiteboard?> | 15:14 |
| sarob | yeah | 15:14 |
| sarob | pranav liked it | 15:14 |
| alagalah | Is there a reason we only use one compute node? | 15:14 |
| sarob | it turns out to be very close to what aptira has structured for their training this week | 15:15 |
| sarob | do we need more than one? | 15:15 |
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| sarob | alagalah if you can double check and tweak the gdraw | 15:17 |
| sarob | ill feel like we can more forward | 15:17 |
| sarob | id really like to get colin's input too | 15:17 |
| alagalah | I shall | 15:18 |
| sarob | i was hoping he'd pop in, but vacation and all | 15:18 |
| alagalah | Yeah totally understandable, nfi what the time diff is | 15:18 |
| sarob | very selfish | 15:18 |
| sarob | its in the evening | 15:18 |
| sarob | his time | 15:18 |
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| sarob | thats all i have | 15:19 |
| alagalah | Well, I guess the real question is what would we gain out of 2 compute nodes? | 15:19 |
| alagalah | live migration ? | 15:19 |
| alagalah | Or is that out of scope? | 15:19 |
| sarob | im game if you think we them | 15:19 |
| sarob | we need them | 15:20 |
| alagalah | Well... I'm just thinking about the sorts of things a VMWare admin might want to see in a course | 15:20 |
| sarob | sure that would be a reason | 15:20 |
| sarob | hmm, right | 15:20 |
| alagalah | I mean you can take the stand point of "I know nothing about virtualisation, openstack me" or "We have vmware but want to investigate this openstack stuff" | 15:20 |
| sarob | keeping noodling on it | 15:20 |
| sarob | yeah, we need to service both | 15:21 |
| alagalah | I guess the real thing would be to just bang it out as is and then get a final version and market test it | 15:21 |
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| sarob | member that the assoc guide is very intro | 15:21 |
| alagalah | Ok that's a fair answer should it come up | 15:22 |
| alagalah | So I guess that falls under "duly noted" | 15:22 |
| sarob | experienced vmware eng could breeze through assoc, then focus on oper | 15:22 |
| alagalah | There ya go! | 15:22 |
| alagalah | hold 1 | 15:22 |
| alagalah | Do we call out pre-reqs for the courses? | 15:22 |
| sarob | ah, right you are | 15:23 |
| sarob | want to add that to the gdraw? | 15:23 |
| alagalah | I shall | 15:24 |
| alagalah | But I don't want to mess it up | 15:24 |
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| alagalah | Any thoughts on changing this meeting to a ghangout so we can share information? | 15:24 |
| sarob | it needs to be at least irc | 15:25 |
| sarob | for logging on easedrop | 15:25 |
| sarob | we could add hangout too if you think it has value | 15:25 |
| sarob | share information how? | 15:26 |
| alagalah | diagrams, trello etc | 15:26 |
| alagalah | I know these things are "real time" and you can follow along if directed but it's easier to see people edit stuff in realtime if they are sharing their screen | 15:26 |
| alagalah | Anyway, just a thought. | 15:27 |
| alagalah | So I'm working on adding pre-reqs | 15:27 |
| alagalah | So far I have: | 15:27 |
| alagalah | pre-requisites: | 15:27 |
| alagalah | - working knowledge of Linux CLI | 15:27 |
| alagalah | - basic networking knowledge (Ethernets, VLAN, IP addressing) | 15:27 |
| alagalah | - mysql ????? | 15:28 |
| alagalah | That's a stretch | 15:28 |
| sarob | yeah | 15:28 |
| alagalah | Virtualisation concepts ? | 15:28 |
| alagalah | Can you see my edits? | 15:29 |
| sarob | its off the page | 15:29 |
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| alagalah | I know that, I didn't want to mess up your formatting | 15:30 |
| alagalah | But I wanted to capture it | 15:30 |
| sarob | no formatting here | 15:30 |
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| sarob | dig in my son | 15:31 |
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| alagalah | Ok what else should go in there? | 15:33 |
| alagalah | The basic linux sysadmin is very subjective | 15:34 |
| sarob | yeah, i think ability to use vi, ssh, | 15:35 |
| sarob | prob the req | 15:35 |
| alagalah | sudo apt-get :) | 15:36 |
| alagalah | Do we need to call out what OS it is? Ubuntu I imagine is the leading candidate | 15:36 |
| sarob | i think we need to give them those | 15:36 |
| alagalah | Seems to have the highest distribution from the survey | 15:36 |
| sarob | they will be running everything in virtualbox | 15:37 |
| sarob | so ubuntu is the os | 15:37 |
| alagalah | Right. | 15:37 |
| sarob | laptop that can run virtualbox | 15:37 |
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| alagalah | Or just say Virtual box? | 15:37 |
| alagalah | I changed it | 15:38 |
| alagalah | Normally I just tell people to bring their type2 hypervisor | 15:38 |
| alagalah | When doing labs and such but ... if we are doing virtual box that simplifies it, consistent | 15:38 |
| sarob | we should have ubuntu on a stick | 15:38 |
| sarob | as well to minimize overloading the remotes | 15:39 |
| alagalah | Ok that would be instructor resources required... right? | 15:39 |
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| sarob | hmm, sure | 15:39 |
| alagalah | Hack away son, going AFK, saying good bye to daughter | 15:40 |
| alagalah | back in 5 | 15:40 |
| sarob | righto | 15:40 |
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| alagalah | back | 15:45 |
| alagalah | So we need a gdraw -> trello compiler | 15:45 |
| sarob | hmm, ill get right on that | 15:49 |
| alagalah | made change to pre-req | 15:49 |
| sarob | i have a hard stop at 8 | 15:49 |
| alagalah | for op guide | 15:49 |
| alagalah | Same here | 15:49 |
| alagalah | in fact I'm doing double duty | 15:49 |
| alagalah | OTP working on a report for a client :D | 15:49 |
| sarob | double pay, awesome | 15:50 |
| sarob | if you can double check the ideas, tweak at will | 15:51 |
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| sarob | i also need to finalize which online service we use for quizzes and tests | 15:52 |
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| alagalah | surveymonkey is simplest I think | 15:52 |
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| sarob | for quiz? | 15:53 |
| alagalah | yeah | 15:53 |
| alagalah | Why not? | 15:53 |
| sarob | hmm, i didnt think of that | 15:54 |
| alagalah | You could make it faux timed by making the test at the end of the class? | 15:54 |
| alagalah | Limit internet access to survey monkey? stop googlefu ? Don't know | 15:54 |
| sarob | well lets bang it around | 15:55 |
| alagalah | Action item for discussion | 15:55 |
| alagalah | It needs to be documented... you archiving this chat? | 15:55 |
| sarob | moodle.org is another | 15:55 |
| alagalah | Never heard of it, I'll check it out | 15:55 |
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| alagalah | Ok, I have to split and jump on a call | 15:56 |
| alagalah | This is great, btw, Sean | 15:56 |
| sarob | later | 15:56 |
| sarob | :) | 15:56 |
| sarob | #endmeeting | 15:56 |
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| *** openstack changes topic to "Action items from the last meeting (Meeting topic: savanna)" | 15:56 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 12 15:56:49 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:56 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/training_manuals/2013/training_manuals.2013-11-12-15.01.html | 15:56 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/training_manuals/2013/training_manuals.2013-11-12-15.01.txt | 15:56 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/training_manuals/2013/training_manuals.2013-11-12-15.01.log.html | 15:56 |
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| adrian_otto | #startmeeting Solum Team Meeting | 16:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 12 16:00:12 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is adrian_otto. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Solum Team Meeting)" | 16:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'solum_team_meeting' | 16:00 |
| adrian_otto | #topic Pre-Announcements | 16:00 |
| adrian_otto | 1) Roll Call will not need your company affiliation in #openstack-meeting-alt as that is not customary here. | 16:00 |
| adrian_otto | You can simply respond with a hello of some sort. Responding at roll call is optional. | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Pre-Announcements (Meeting topic: Solum Team Meeting)" | 16:00 | |
| adrian_otto | #topic Roll Call | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: Solum Team Meeting)" | 16:00 | |
| adrian_otto | Good morning! | 16:01 |
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| coolsvap | Hey, Swapnil Kulkarni(coolsvap) here | 16:01 |
| gokrokve_ | Good morning! Georgy from Mirantis is here | 16:01 |
| tomblank | Tom Blankenship, Rackspace | 16:01 |
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| uri1803 | Hi folks, Uri Cohen, GigaSpaces | 16:01 |
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| jwforres | hi, Jessica Forrester | 16:02 |
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| claytonc | Clayton Coleman | 16:02 |
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| paulczar | Paul Czarkowski, Rackspace | 16:02 |
| muralia | Murali Allada, Rackspace | 16:02 |
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| alexheneveld | alex heneveld, cloudsoft | 16:03 |
| adrian_otto | would you all like to have an informal ODS retrospective during our open discussion today? | 16:04 |
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| claytonc | }1 | 16:05 |
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| claytonc | +1 | 16:05 |
| muralia | Yes. | 16:05 |
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| uri1803 | +1 | 16:05 |
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| danmcp_mtg | Dan McPherson, Red Hat | 16:05 |
| alexheneveld | +1 | 16:05 |
| sapuri | Sandeep Puri, Cisco | 16:05 |
| gokrokve_ | +1 | 16:05 |
| Subbu_ | Subbu Allamaraju, eBay | 16:05 |
| adrian_otto | okay, I will raise that for discussion right before open discussion | 16:05 |
| devkulkarni1 | Devdatta Kulkarni, Rackspace | 16:05 |
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| adrian_otto | okay, let's proceed. | 16:06 |
| adrian_otto | anyone else may chime in at any time. | 16:07 |
| adrian_otto | #topic Review action items from prior meeting | 16:07 |
| adrian_otto | ACTION: adrian_otto to create a breakout session index on the wiki (adrian_otto, 16:58:01) | 16:07 |
| adrian_otto | Status: completed: https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Solum/BreakoutMeetings | 16:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review action items from prior meeting (Meeting topic: Solum Team Meeting)" | 16:07 | |
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| adrian_otto | that was the only action item | 16:07 |
| adrian_otto | #topic Announcements | 16:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: Solum Team Meeting)" | 16:07 | |
| adrian_otto | 1) Mirantis is joining the Solum team. Please welcome them. | 16:07 |
| funzo | welcome! | 16:08 |
| muralia | Welcome folks! | 16:08 |
| adrian_otto | we have gokrokve_ here with us this morning | 16:08 |
| rajdeep | Welcome, even though i am also new! | 16:08 |
| coolsvap | Hello! | 16:08 |
| gokrokve_ | Thank you! | 16:08 |
| adrian_otto | rajdeep: welcome! | 16:08 |
| gokrokve_ | We plan to have more folks from Mirantis here. | 16:08 |
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| adrian_otto | great! | 16:09 |
| Subbu_ | adrian_otto: small typo on the wiki - it is referring to #solum channel | 16:09 |
| Subbu_ | Was that intentional> | 16:10 |
| Subbu_ | ? | 16:10 |
| adrian_otto | oh, my | 16:10 |
| adrian_otto | which page is that appearing on? | 16:10 |
| Subbu_ | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Solum/BreakoutMeetings | 16:10 |
| adrian_otto | actually, that's right, those will be in #solum | 16:10 |
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| noorul | Hello | 16:10 |
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| tnurlygayanov | Hello ) | 16:10 |
| Subbu_ | k | 16:11 |
| adrian_otto | because the #openstack-meeting-alt channel is used for regularly scheduled meetings | 16:11 |
| stanlagun | hello :) | 16:11 |
| adrian_otto | and I did not want to interfere with any others | 16:11 |
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| adrian_otto | Subbu_: will taht be okay, do you think? | 16:11 |
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| Subbu_ | makes sense. less conflicts | 16:11 |
| adrian_otto | okay, so here is our next announcement: | 16:12 |
| adrian_otto | 2) Solum API Deep Dive schedules for this week: | 16:12 |
| adrian_otto | PART I: Wednesday 2013-11-13 1:00 PM US/Pacific (2100 UTC) | 16:12 |
| adrian_otto | #link http://www.worldtimebuddy.com/?qm=1&lid=8,0,4726206&h=8&date=2013-11-13&sln=13-14 | 16:12 |
| adrian_otto | PART II: Friday 2013-11-15 1:00 PM US/Pacific (2100 UTC) | 16:12 |
| adrian_otto | #link http://www.worldtimebuddy.com/?qm=1&lid=8,0,4726206&h=8&date=2013-11-15&sln=13-14 | 16:12 |
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| rajdeep | looks very asia unfriendly time | 16:13 |
| rajdeep | :( | 16:13 |
| adrian_otto | as discussed above, these will be in #solum and are intended for those who are interested in this topic to spend more focused time on it | 16:13 |
| adrian_otto | the timeslot was selected from a croudsourced poll. | 16:13 |
| funzo | adrian_otto: is the plan for the deep dive to do part of it on IRC so folks can participate that aren't in the office? | 16:13 |
| adrian_otto | sorry for those of you on the other side of the globe. | 16:13 |
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| rajdeep | ok np | 16:13 |
| adrian_otto | fungi: they are IRC meetings. What did you mean? | 16:14 |
| funzo | adrian_otto: didn't realize that | 16:14 |
| stanlagun | It is midnight for most of Mirantis folks | 16:14 |
| adrian_otto | oh, yes, you can participate by IRC. | 16:14 |
| adrian_otto | stanlagun: sorry about that. We secured the timeslots before we knew you would be joining us. | 16:14 |
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| adrian_otto | we used a tool called Doodle, which we will use again when we select future meeting times. | 16:15 |
| adrian_otto | so if you see a link to Doodle anywhere in the ML, be sure to participate in that so we can accommodate your preferences. | 16:15 |
| adrian_otto | next announcement... | 16:15 |
| adrian_otto | 3) My deepest apologies for the confusion on the meeting time. My calendar emitted a rouge meeting invite. | 16:16 |
| adrian_otto | PLEASE *delete* all appearances of "Solum Team Meeting" or "Solum Weekly Meeting" from you calendars. I will find a way to start fresh. | 16:16 |
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| adrian_otto | those of us in attendance already got the right time. | 16:16 |
| adrian_otto | so my apologies to those of you reading this from transcripts. | 16:17 |
| adrian_otto | okay, next we will move into blueprints | 16:17 |
| adrian_otto | I have a few that were carried over from a prior agenda: | 16:17 |
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| adrian_otto | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/Solum | 16:18 |
| adrian_otto | #topic Git Deploy Blueprint | 16:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Git Deploy Blueprint (Meeting topic: Solum Team Meeting)" | 16:18 | |
| adrian_otto | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/solum/+spec/git-integration | 16:18 |
| adrian_otto | Present child blueprints and identify any ready for approval. | 16:18 |
| adrian_otto | (do we actually have anything new on this to discuss) | 16:18 |
| adrian_otto | ? | 16:18 |
| rajdeep | one question : what if developer is not using git as a source control | 16:19 |
| adrian_otto | we also have... | 16:19 |
| adrian_otto | rajdeep: good question | 16:19 |
| adrian_otto | they will be able to bypass that | 16:19 |
| adrian_otto | they will have a few options, including using the REST API directly | 16:19 |
| adrian_otto | using a CLI tool | 16:19 |
| adrian_otto | using an IDE plugin, or another UI | 16:20 |
| noorul | adrian_otto: Is this blueprint taken to mailing list? | 16:20 |
| stanlagun | hg? TFS? | 16:20 |
| claytonc | there has also been discussion about pluggable source | 16:20 |
| claytonc | Git is the initial focus | 16:20 |
| adrian_otto | yes, we can discuss this on ML. | 16:20 |
| gokrokve_ | Will the git commit pass a gerrit review before? | 16:20 |
| alexheneveld | did y'all get the chance to discuss this at all in HK? | 16:20 |
| claytonc | but the desire would be to abstract that detail to a source provider | 16:20 |
| adrian_otto | gokrokve_: we have not discussed that yet, but we might use Gerrit in Solum | 16:21 |
| gokrokve_ | Is it supposed that there will be some specific development process? | 16:21 |
| adrian_otto | Gerrit would host the git repo in that case | 16:21 |
| funzo | it would be a good idea to implement a gate, that could be jenkins or gerrit or whatever | 16:21 |
| rajdeep | i guess wrapper is a better approach and pluggin git, svn , TFS | 16:21 |
| kraman | alexheneveld not everyone was present in HK. A lot of the design discussion will also take place at F2F | 16:21 |
| claytonc | funzo: that's a good point - there are probably two source flows: a) pushes to a repo, b) flows from a gate | 16:21 |
| sapuri | any review tool (like gerrit) probably should not have tight coupling - more likely an optional coupling | 16:21 |
| alexheneveld | k thx adrian_otto - as some of you know my 2p is that this will be easier if we split it into smaller parts | 16:22 |
| funzo | claytonc: +1 | 16:22 |
| claytonc | sapuri: absolutely | 16:22 |
| adrian_otto | we have not sorted out how best to support the gating use case | 16:22 |
| alexheneveld | code repo and build on one side ... deploy and run on the other | 16:22 |
| adrian_otto | but we will certainly allow a deployment artifact to bypass the build and go straight to deployment | 16:22 |
| rajdeep | sapuri +1, many enterprise developers find gerrit cumbersone | 16:22 |
| adrian_otto | so if you want to run your own Jenkins, you can do that | 16:22 |
| kraman | if we keep the seperation clean and just have git invoke REST API when it is ready to push out code. might make it more flexible for other source controls as well | 16:23 |
| adrian_otto | we have room for this on the Design Workshop agenda, so we can revisit it then too | 16:23 |
| stanlagun | What is gonna be in that git for short-term plans? Python projects? Or do you plan on building C++ apps etc? | 16:23 |
| devkulkarni1 | kraman: +1 | 16:23 |
| claytonc | stanlagun: that is intended to be generic | 16:24 |
| claytonc | see the language packs discussion in the wiki | 16:24 |
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| alexheneveld | kraman: +1 | 16:24 |
| sapuri | kraman: +1 | 16:24 |
| coolsvap | claytonc: +1 | 16:24 |
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| adrian_otto | I should have mentioned the Design Workshop in the announcements section, sorry. Here is the registration link if you plan to attend in person in San Francisco on Nov 19+20: | 16:25 |
| adrian_otto | #link https://www.eventbrite.com/event/9130831563 | 16:25 |
| alexheneveld | I will be with you all in spirit. | 16:26 |
| adrian_otto | we will be in #solum too | 16:26 |
| Subbu_ | thx for the link | 16:27 |
| adrian_otto | and we are discussing how we might also use Google Hangout for some of it | 16:27 |
| coolsvap | adrian_otto : +1 :) | 16:27 |
| adrian_otto | my understanding is that there are 3 meeting rooms so we can have concurrent meetings | 16:27 |
| coolsvap | for #solum & hangout, I will be on lookout for its announcement | 16:27 |
| alexheneveld | great | 16:27 |
| uri1803_ | +1 for hangout | 16:28 |
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| stanlagun | +1 for hangout too | 16:28 |
| noorul | I am trying to understand a use case for DU Count > 1 | 16:28 |
| adrian_otto | ok, we have a few more blueprints to touch on | 16:28 |
| claytonc | noorul: php and python parts of an app | 16:29 |
| claytonc | that's one | 16:29 |
| gokrokve_ | Regarding Jenkins, do you see it inside solum to make actual build or it should be outside? | 16:29 |
| claytonc | there was a long ML discussion on that a while back | 16:29 |
| adrian_otto | #topic Shell Access Blueprint | 16:29 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Shell Access Blueprint (Meeting topic: Solum Team Meeting)" | 16:29 | |
| claytonc | noorul: about whether it was a good idea | 16:29 |
| adrian_otto | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/solum/+spec/shell-access-to-du | 16:29 |
| claytonc | so on ssh key distribution specifically, had a long discussion with adam young at design summit | 16:29 |
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| claytonc | one concrete point of statement from keystone was that they don't plan on being a key distribution / change management system (even though they might implement ceilometer notifications for credential added / removed) | 16:30 |
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| claytonc | so an integrator wishing to implement ssh access and distribute keys would need to build something on top of keystone to do that | 16:30 |
| adrian_otto | Cloud Keep (barbican) may be a good fir for that | 16:30 |
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| coolsvap | claytonc : +1 | 16:30 |
| adrian_otto | s/fir/fit/ | 16:30 |
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| claytonc | adrian_otto: the one integration point that might complicate it is the many to many relationship of keys (user a has 10 keys, user b has 10 keys, they can overlap occassionally for machine system keys) | 16:31 |
| claytonc | would be good to talk about barbican on ML or in a breakout related to this topic | 16:31 |
| adrian_otto | #link https://github.com/cloudkeep | 16:31 |
| funzo | adrian_otto: yeah, I heard folks talking about barbican being the key distribution of choice | 16:31 |
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| sapuri | claytonc: +1 - on many to many | 16:32 |
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| adrian_otto | in a nutshell, it's a central place where you can store secrets | 16:32 |
| stanlagun | Do you plan to support Windows as well? | 16:32 |
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| kraman | Same here. barbican was suggested as best way to distribute keys to applications as well. But that will depend on the container APIs to some extent | 16:32 |
| funzo | stanlagun: as guests? | 16:32 |
| stanlagun | yep | 16:32 |
| claytonc | noorul: maybe we should write up examples of multi DU on ML and try to counter example each one (about why it's a bad idea or not) | 16:33 |
| alexheneveld | ssh seems like a special case of the need to expose a management interface for DU's in some cases | 16:33 |
| funzo | stanlagun: in theory if using instances, that would be possible | 16:33 |
| adrian_otto | stanlagun: it's not explicitly mentioned as a goal, but language agnostic is. I see no reason why Windows could not be supported if there were a language pack for it. | 16:33 |
| claytonc | alexheneveld: good point - there are operations above and beyond ssh | 16:33 |
| alexheneveld | (and also for services) -- many will have a management dashboard for which barbican (or similar) would make sense for credential mgmt | 16:33 |
| claytonc | however SSH typically has specific key authorization needs that you can avoid via other management points - i think the key aspect is what makes it special | 16:33 |
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| Subbu_ | interesting discussion about windows - it further lowers the common denominator :) | 16:34 |
| kraman | alexheneveld: on openshift its used a lot during development and some during production to be able to log in and see what the processes are actually doing. cant run strace etc without shell access | 16:34 |
| adrian_otto | so do we have a desire to break this BP up into more child BP's that we can assign as work items? | 16:34 |
| stanlagun | This depends on overall architecture. Window might be very different. No SSH connectivity, np GNU toolstack etc | 16:34 |
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| alexheneveld | +1 claytonc - nice if user can supply a public key / credential where that is possible | 16:34 |
| gokrokve_ | What about HTTPS\CLI option? It is mentioned in BP. | 16:34 |
| funzo | stanlagun: definitely more complicated issues to think about re containers | 16:34 |
| alexheneveld | i'd like to make sure what we build doesn't rule windows out -- but do any of us want to endure that pain now :) | 16:35 |
| * funzo slowly takes one baby step back. | 16:35 | |
| stanlagun | Well you can never be sure until you try one | 16:36 |
| adrian_otto | my guidance on this is to keep windows in mind, and focus initially on the language types that will run on *nix | 16:36 |
| claytonc | alexheneveld: stanlagun a good way to think about it is that we should allow the mechanism by which you deploy to be plugged enough so that you can pass the appropriate info to start a windows instance and configure it | 16:36 |
| claytonc | (via heat) | 16:36 |
| claytonc | what adrian said | 16:36 |
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| funzo | +1 | 16:37 |
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| stanlagun | Windows is where all of your futures would be most interesting because there are not many solutions for that OS. If you can handle windows Linux wouldn't going to be a problem either | 16:37 |
| adrian_otto | and we should consider windows compat as a key criteria when evaluating options for the design | 16:37 |
| alexheneveld | kraman: absolutely we must be able to set up ssh access for many DU's. (though there could be some where it isn't ... e.g. if it's running in a multi-tenant JVM or OSGi framework...) | 16:37 |
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| adrian_otto | not necessarily implementing both tracks. | 16:37 |
| claytonc | alexheneveld: kraman possibly DU's have a set of capabilities that are intrinsic to what they are (containers, multitenant jvm, windows) | 16:37 |
| alexheneveld | i'm just saying we want to be able to expose *other* types of management endpoints which will also require credential mgmt | 16:37 |
| adrian_otto | alexheneveld: indeed | 16:38 |
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| adrian_otto | ok, let's proceed to our next BP | 16:38 |
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| adrian_otto | #topic WSGI Framework Discussion | 16:38 |
| adrian_otto | Pecan+WSME vs. Falcon | 16:38 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "WSGI Framework Discussion (Meeting topic: Solum Team Meeting)" | 16:38 | |
| tnurlygayanov | how user will connect to the different instances via ssh? only one session for one host? | 16:38 |
| adrian_otto | #link https://review.openstack.org/#q,topic:bp/rest-api-base,n,z | 16:38 |
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| kraman | alexheneveld yes, ssh or just shell access seup should be optional and up to cloud provider | 16:38 |
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| kraman | tnurlygayanov: that needs to be worked out still | 16:39 |
| alexheneveld | yep - a bunch of different capabilities of various types of {DU's, lang packs, services, kumquats} | 16:39 |
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| stanlagun | thats why I mentioned Windows in the first place as there is no SSH there | 16:40 |
| adrian_otto | ok, I offered this guidance last week: http://lists.openstack.org/pipermail/openstack-dev/2013-November/018430.html | 16:40 |
| muralia | adrian_otto: Have we decided to go with Pecan+WSME? What were some of the discussions you had with others at the summit in this regard? | 16:40 |
| rajdeep | supporting multiple OS will complicate things a lot | 16:41 |
| adrian_otto | I am seeking input on Falcon, as I have suggested we proceed with Pecan+WSME | 16:41 |
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| funzo | adrian_otto: so are we just going with falcon if that's what's in the patch | 16:41 |
| rajdeep | not sure how man paas can do that today | 16:41 |
| funzo | ah | 16:41 |
| adrian_otto | look at the review topic linked above | 16:41 |
| adrian_otto | we have a patch for Falcon, and another for Pecan+WSME | 16:41 |
| adrian_otto | at: https://review.openstack.org/#q,topic:bp/rest-api-base,n,z | 16:42 |
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| funzo | i see | 16:42 |
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| muralia | I'd like to hear more about the discussions that were had with the community around Falcon vs Pecan+wsme at the summit | 16:43 |
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| sapuri | adrian_otto: no opinion on either, i like your suggestion in the mailing list that, we should pick what other openstack projects are using, as a starting point | 16:43 |
| kraman | muralia: most projects are switching or are planning to switch to Pecan+WSME | 16:44 |
| adrian_otto | I discussed it at length with Kurt Griffiths, | 16:44 |
| adrian_otto | who is a key contributor to Falcon | 16:44 |
| claytonc | the documentation angle and the separation of API abstraction slightly from the underlying domain model abstraction were the factors that convinced me that pecan+wsme was the better choice for a general, control-plane API. | 16:45 |
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| adrian_otto | and a number of PTL's on OpenStack projects | 16:45 |
| kraman | claytonc: +1 | 16:45 |
| adrian_otto | Jay Pipes has good criticisms of Webob and WSME | 16:45 |
| stanlagun | Pecan (0.3.2) 7,111 req/sec Falcon (0.1.7) with Cython (0.19.1) - 52,858 req/sec according to off site | 16:46 |
| adrian_otto | I also sourced input from Clayton, and others from RH | 16:46 |
| adrian_otto | stanlagun: I see that performance difference as acceptable, from the perspective of a large scale cloud operator. | 16:47 |
| adrian_otto | control plane API's just don't see request rates that high | 16:47 |
| alexheneveld | everyone seems in violent agreement, but for the order of magnitude difference wrt pecan | 16:47 |
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| adrian_otto | and if they are, that means you have a service with a ton of usage, and can use horizontal scale out to address it | 16:47 |
| claytonc | as a practical example, in openshift we see control plane traffic that is roughly 1-2 req/sec per ten thousand active applications | 16:47 |
| alexheneveld | however +1 adrian_otto claytonc -- for the requests this will be handling raw throughput is less important than maintainability | 16:48 |
| claytonc | scale that up to ten million active active applications you're talking 1k req/s which is achievable using tens of python servers | 16:48 |
| adrian_otto | claytonc: we see similar use patterns in our existing systems that offer Web UI capability | 16:48 |
| muralia | I personally find falcon to be easier to use and less bulky. But I do buy into the separation of domain and api models. Performance is not really the issue. | 16:48 |
| alexheneveld | the higher throughput might be needed for the language pack, but falcon could still be used in language pack | 16:49 |
| kraman | adrian_otto: Webob used the be a problem but no longer an issue based on discussions during summit. | 16:49 |
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| stanlagun | agree. I also would like Pecan more. The only concern with performance here is it is good to have common approach for all projects and for some of them performance can be an issue | 16:50 |
| adrian_otto | in the absence of any new key drawback, I wold like to mark a decision in the direction of Pecan+WSME, and revisit it as needed. If it turns out that we have a real performance concern at some point, we can evaluate a tear out of Pecan+WSME, or other optimization options. | 16:50 |
| kraman | alexheneveld: the language packs can use any api or language they wish. doesnt have to be the same as solum | 16:50 |
| Subbu_ | As long as the control plane is stateless, and gets zero traffic from running hosts, we can handle. We had issues some OpenStack components like neutro which get traffic from data plane. | 16:50 |
| alexheneveld | kraman: +1 | 16:50 |
| alexheneveld | adrian_otto: +1 ... enough talk | 16:50 |
| adrian_otto | any objections prior to advancing the topic? | 16:50 |
| coolsvap | adrian, kamran : +1 | 16:50 |
| claytonc | +1 | 16:51 |
| tomblank | +1 | 16:51 |
| stanlagun | +1 | 16:51 |
| muralia | +1 | 16:51 |
| kraman | +1 | 16:51 |
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| claytonc | Subbu_: would recommend that data plane traffic into solum be a separate scalable component anyway | 16:51 |
| RRaj | +1 | 16:51 |
| funzo | doit | 16:51 |
| adrian_otto | #agreed we will use Pecan+WSME as the WSGI Framework for solum, to be revisited as-needed. | 16:51 |
| claytonc | that's a good addendum to adrian's comment - pecan is for control plane traffic | 16:51 |
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| adrian_otto | claytonc: agreed 100% | 16:52 |
| adrian_otto | #topic ODS Retrospective | 16:52 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "ODS Retrospective (Meeting topic: Solum Team Meeting)" | 16:52 | |
| adrian_otto | The HKG summit was full of a lot of energy | 16:52 |
| RRaj | Missed the summit - was there Solum discussion/session? | 16:53 |
| adrian_otto | about 99% of it toward Solum was positive. I expected more controversy. It seems that random bloggers have more criticisms than the core of the OpenStack community. | 16:53 |
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| adrian_otto | oh, in summary of events: | 16:53 |
| adrian_otto | I had a Lightning Talk on day 1 | 16:53 |
| adrian_otto | Unconference sessions on Day 2 and 3 | 16:53 |
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| RRaj | Nice | 16:54 |
| adrian_otto | a Panel on Day 1 where Solum came up a bit | 16:54 |
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| adrian_otto | and an Panel on Day 4 | 16:54 |
| claytonc | the best piece of criticism I heard was about whether Solum inside OpenStack drives people out of openstack or brings them in (relating this back to heat discussions that occurred previously). My argument there was that we are growing the space of potential people who can be involved in openstack (language authors, development tool frameworks, CI/CD, containers) more than we are hurting | 16:54 |
| kraman | We also had a design session on Container support on day 4 | 16:54 |
| noorul | http://www.forbes.com/sites/benkepes/2013/11/04/breaking-sorry-rackspace-et-al-ubuntu-to-offer-openstack-hosted-cloudfoundry-based-paas/ | 16:54 |
| adrian_otto | it was mentioned in the RedHat keynote | 16:54 |
| noorul | I saw that the other day | 16:54 |
| adrian_otto | I see all the Cloud Foundry buzz as irrelevant | 16:55 |
| alexheneveld | i do not think the bloggers are "random" ... everyone has their agenda #ignore | 16:55 |
| adrian_otto | the question really is about will Solum have the support it needs from community contributors to make it a valuable addition to the OpenStack ecosystem | 16:55 |
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| adrian_otto | and that's clearly a yes. | 16:56 |
| adrian_otto | there was one question that Clint Byrum raised in the Friday panel | 16:56 |
| Subbu_ | running code | 16:56 |
| sapuri | adrian_otto: +1 | 16:56 |
| claytonc | adrian_otto: that's what I was referring to above | 16:56 |
| coolsvap | adrian: I agree, have seen a lot of community interest in Solum in ODS | 16:56 |
| adrian_otto | about Heat being a disruptive force, and that Solum may also be disruptive | 16:56 |
| rajdeep | i had one question on messaging layer | 16:57 |
| adrian_otto | upon reflection, I did think of a better response | 16:57 |
| adrian_otto | that disruptive forces generally result in an overall improvement | 16:57 |
| adrian_otto | but can cause short term setbacks | 16:57 |
| adrian_otto | the long term gain is a certainty in my mind. Developers will become more productive using cloud technology when our vision is achieved. | 16:58 |
| claytonc | i'd also make the point that up until now openstack has focused mostly on administration and resource allocation - but IT is larger than it. I see openstack as helping IT organizations deliver value to their companies, and application lifecycle is a huge component of that | 16:58 |
| adrian_otto | and that's a good thing. | 16:58 |
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| alexheneveld | on that note adrian_otto open source is a huge disruptor ... typically decimates a market when there is an open source solution | 16:58 |
| alexheneveld | but is ultimately a good thing (imho :) ) | 16:58 |
| adrian_otto | I need to hit on open discussion too | 16:58 |
| adrian_otto | as we are running low on time | 16:58 |
| adrian_otto | #topic Open Discussion | 16:58 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: Solum Team Meeting)" | 16:58 | |
| noorul | adrian_otto: Is this still worked on http://lists.solum.io/pipermail/solum/2013-October/000130.html ? | 16:59 |
| alexheneveld | rajdeep: messaging? | 16:59 |
| alexheneveld | (or take to ML) | 16:59 |
| rajdeep | ok i will ask there | 16:59 |
| adrian_otto | noorul: I will need an update from Roshan on that one. | 16:59 |
| adrian_otto | I think that task is still pending | 17:00 |
| kraman | If anyone is interested in looking at what it will take to better integrate containers into Nova (or perhaps create a new service), please add your email to https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/docker-nova-hkg around line 70 | 17:00 |
| adrian_otto | #endmeeting | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Action items from the last meeting (Meeting topic: savanna)" | 17:00 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 12 17:00:17 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:00 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/solum_team_meeting/2013/solum_team_meeting.2013-11-12-16.00.html | 17:00 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/solum_team_meeting/2013/solum_team_meeting.2013-11-12-16.00.txt | 17:00 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/solum_team_meeting/2013/solum_team_meeting.2013-11-12-16.00.log.html | 17:00 |
| adrian_otto | please continue in #solum | 17:00 |
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| lifeless | #startmeeting tripleo | 19:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Tue Nov 12 19:00:54 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is lifeless. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: tripleo)" | 19:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'tripleo' | 19:00 |
| lifeless | #topic agenda | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "agenda (Meeting topic: tripleo)" | 19:01 | |
| lifeless | bugs | 19:01 |
| lifeless | reviews | 19:01 |
| lifeless | Projects needing releases | 19:01 |
| lifeless | CD Cloud status | 19:01 |
| lifeless | CI virtualized testing progress | 19:01 |
| lifeless | Insert one-off agenda items here | 19:01 |
| lifeless | post HK wrapup | 19:01 |
| lifeless | open discussion | 19:01 |
| lifeless | #topic bugs | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "bugs (Meeting topic: tripleo)" | 19:01 | |
| lifeless | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/tripleo/ | 19:01 |
| lifeless | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/diskimage-builder/ | 19:01 |
| lifeless | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/os-refresh-config | 19:01 |
| lifeless | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/os-apply-config | 19:01 |
| lifeless | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/os-collect-config | 19:01 |
| lifeless | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/tuskar | 19:01 |
| lifeless | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/tuskar-ui | 19:01 |
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| lifeless | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/python-tuskarclient | 19:01 |
| jprovazn | hi | 19:01 |
| lsmola_ | hello | 19:02 |
| marios | evening all | 19:02 |
| pleia2 | o/ | 19:02 |
| lifeless | and -this is a first- we have no bugs that haven't been triaged; *and* we have no bugs that are critical open. | 19:02 |
| lifeless | congrats everyone! | 19:02 |
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| lsmola_ | yaay | 19:02 |
| slagle | nice | 19:02 |
| lifeless | #info -this is a first- we have no bugs that haven't been triaged; *and* we have no bugs that are critical open. | 19:03 |
| lifeless | Anyone have a pet bug they want to discuss ? | 19:03 |
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| dprince | well, my dog has fleas | 19:04 |
| lsmola_ | lol | 19:04 |
| lifeless | moving right along :) | 19:04 |
| lifeless | #topic reviews | 19:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "reviews (Meeting topic: tripleo)" | 19:04 | |
| lifeless | http://russellbryant.net/openstack-stats/tripleo-openreviews.html | 19:04 |
| lifeless | #link http://russellbryant.net/openstack-stats/tripleo-openreviews.html | 19:04 |
| lifeless | 3rd quartile wait time: 0 days, 6 hours, 35 minutes | 19:05 |
| lifeless | thats looking pretty hawt | 19:05 |
| jog0 | wow | 19:05 |
| lifeless | especially since we just had massive teamwide travel disruption etc | 19:05 |
| lifeless | #info reviews looking good - oldest review is < 7 hours | 19:06 |
| lifeless | Anyone have stuff around reviews they want to discuss? | 19:06 |
| slagle | you proposed to add me to core. did i pass the vote? :) | 19:06 |
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| SpamapS | I think we had massive teamwide busy-not-submitting-patches too.. but it is good to see we didn't let either side disrupt the other ;) | 19:07 |
| lifeless | slagle: I don't know | 19:07 |
| lifeless | slagle: lets see | 19:07 |
| lifeless | slagle: noone disagreed, but we didn't get as many respondents as I would have liked. | 19:08 |
| lifeless | slagle: so will add you | 19:08 |
| lifeless | slagle: and urge folk to vote next month | 19:08 |
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| lsmola_ | slagle, I have noticed only +1 | 19:08 |
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| lsmola_ | lifeless, I think I forgot to reply, so I give +1 to all :-) | 19:09 |
| jomara | easy, tiger | 19:09 |
| lsmola_ | hehe | 19:10 |
| lsmola_ | lifeless, seemed to me like there was 100% agreement anyway :-) | 19:10 |
| lifeless | let me action that now | 19:11 |
| lifeless | #info slagle added to core | 19:12 |
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| SpamapS | \o/ | 19:13 |
| SpamapS | moar core | 19:13 |
| lifeless | #topic Projects needing releases | 19:13 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Projects needing releases (Meeting topic: tripleo)" | 19:13 | |
| lifeless | rpodolyaka1: around? | 19:13 |
| rpodolyaka1 | lifeless: yep | 19:13 |
| rpodolyaka1 | it seems that only tuskar and python-tuskarclient have bugs in 'Fix commited' state | 19:14 |
| rpodolyaka1 | since the last release | 19:14 |
| rpodolyaka1 | I could volunteer to make releases of those this week too :) | 19:14 |
| lifeless | rpodolyaka1: I think we should go off of git, not off the bug tracker. | 19:14 |
| lifeless | rpodolyaka1: as code can land without bugs existing | 19:14 |
| rpodolyaka1 | make sense | 19:15 |
| lifeless | rpodolyaka1: and thanks! | 19:15 |
| SpamapS | I started working on a launchpad script to translate git -> LP bugs | 19:15 |
| lifeless | #info rpodolyaka1 to do another set of releases | 19:15 |
| rpodolyaka1 | ack | 19:15 |
| lifeless | SpamapS: what does that mean? | 19:15 |
| SpamapS | backburnered, but I can dig it out and get it up some where that everybody can use it. | 19:15 |
| SpamapS | lifeless: git knows whether or not a bug fix has landed in a release.. | 19:16 |
| lifeless | I have a prototype thing to report which projects need releases and help determine what version they need | 19:16 |
| rpodolyaka1 | btw, I made a wiki page to describe the release management process https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/TripleO/ReleaseManagement | 19:16 |
| lifeless | rpodolyaka1: I saw - awesome | 19:16 |
| lifeless | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/TripleO/ReleaseManagement | 19:16 |
| SpamapS | lifeless: we can scan fix committed bugs, find the review that landed, and move them to fix released. | 19:16 |
| lifeless | SpamapS: won't that leave fix committed bugs w/o metadata open and stale? | 19:16 |
| marios | rpodolyaka1: i can help too if you like - ah, was just about to say ï'll hassle you for info on how but you posted that wiki page | 19:17 |
| SpamapS | lifeless: yes. | 19:17 |
| lifeless | #topic CD Cloud status | 19:18 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "CD Cloud status (Meeting topic: tripleo)" | 19:18 | |
| lifeless | It's up. THen it's down. THen it's up. | 19:18 |
| lifeless | I think we need to forge ahead with state preservation, live upgrades and then circle back on reliablity | 19:18 |
| lifeless | because we'll end up blocking the CI effort otherwise. | 19:18 |
| marios | rpodolyaka1: so anyway, let me know if you need help | 19:19 |
| SpamapS | agreed, also we can start ramping up instrumenting to help debug the reliability. | 19:19 |
| rpodolyaka1 | marios: sure | 19:19 |
| lifeless | jog0: whats the status of the rebuild patches - they are now critical path in that we can't move ahead until they are done | 19:19 |
| jog0 | lifeless: make sense, but what are the reprocussions on CI if we cannot deploy reliably | 19:19 |
| * jog0 looks | 19:20 | |
| lifeless | jog0: thats what the rolling deploy story is about, so we don't take down a live node etc | 19:20 |
| lifeless | jog0: CI won't start out gating, just silent queue, so we can iterate up | 19:20 |
| jog0 | lifeless: oh right | 19:20 |
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| jog0 | lifeless: patches are in review | 19:20 |
| jog0 | both got comments today one -1 will look at that and work on the patch you handed me as well | 19:21 |
| lifeless | jog0: so - https://trello.com/b/0jIoMrdo/tripleo | 19:22 |
| jog0 | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/51735/ https://review.openstack.org/#/c/52704/ https://review.openstack.org/#/c/54308/ | 19:22 |
| lifeless | jog0: we need nova rebuild for baremetal, we need rebuild preserving ephemeral for baremetal and we need baremetal ephemeral support | 19:22 |
| lifeless | jog0: I believe only the latter one is in review | 19:22 |
| lifeless | jog0: this worries me as I think atm only you have picked up the cards for this set of work | 19:23 |
| lifeless | Can anyone else dive in and help with these changes? | 19:23 |
| jog0 | ack, will get patches out this afternoon (after I file expense reports :/) | 19:23 |
| lifeless | yeah, tell me about that :) | 19:24 |
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| * dprince filed his | 19:24 | |
| jog0 | dprince: did you just volunteer to help with the nova changes? | 19:25 |
| dprince | jog0: I can, certainly if we need it | 19:26 |
| dprince | jog0: but I was referring to filing my expense report :) | 19:26 |
| dprince | jog0: happy to help though w/ Nova too | 19:26 |
| jog0 | dprince: being this is the MVP help is good | 19:27 |
| lifeless | SpamapS: can you ? | 19:27 |
| rpodolyaka1 | I'm willing to help too :) | 19:27 |
| lifeless | rpodolyaka1: awesome | 19:28 |
| lifeless | ok, so - the top two cards in the trello I linked, under 'current MVP' - they link to an etherpad with details | 19:29 |
| SpamapS | lifeless: yes I can, currently just playing with the other side (element changes to support /mnt/state) | 19:29 |
| lifeless | please ask me/jog0 if you have any questions about whats needed in nova | 19:29 |
| lifeless | SpamapS: I suspect latency on the nova side is going to dominate | 19:29 |
| rpodolyaka1 | lifeless: ack | 19:30 |
| SpamapS | lifeless: agreed | 19:30 |
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| jog0 | lifeless: yeah, although I can use up some of my karma on this once we have all the patches in place | 19:30 |
| lifeless | ok | 19:30 |
| lifeless | #topic CI virtualized testing progress | 19:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "CI virtualized testing progress (Meeting topic: tripleo)" | 19:31 | |
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| lifeless | pleia2: ^ | 19:32 |
| pleia2 | got to meet up with dprince and derekh at summit about this, so they're going to help out | 19:32 |
| pleia2 | we all need to get on the same page with a lifeless chat though | 19:32 |
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| dprince | pleia2: sure. The extra trello for tripleo-ci efforts is meant to help out here. | 19:33 |
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| pleia2 | dprince: do you want to sync up with lifeless after meeting, or plan something when derekh can attend (maybe tomorrow?) | 19:35 |
| dprince | pleia2: lets sync up ASAP | 19:35 |
| pleia2 | ok good | 19:35 |
| lifeless | pleia2: cool; is there anything we should touch on team wide about this? | 19:35 |
| pleia2 | lifeless: I don't think so | 19:35 |
| lifeless | ok | 19:35 |
| lifeless | #topic post HK wrapup | 19:36 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "post HK wrapup (Meeting topic: tripleo)" | 19:36 | |
| lifeless | so I need to go through all the blueprints, set administrivia state etc | 19:36 |
| lifeless | can everyone that submitted a session make sure you've captured action items in the etherpads: any pad with no action items I'm going to presume to be historical record and close the blueprint that pointed at it:) | 19:36 |
| lifeless | I'm not likely to get this done until next week or even the week after, so no need to panic - OTOH doing it while fresh helps prevent memory decay | 19:37 |
| lifeless | I thought our sessions were fairly effective, though one thing stood out to me | 19:38 |
| slagle | there wasn't a bp open for the session i proposed. should i just open one in that case? | 19:38 |
| lifeless | We're not communicating clearly that we embrace diversity - e.g. the ceph vs glusterfs discussion | 19:38 |
| lifeless | slagle: no, please don't :) | 19:38 |
| slagle | ok | 19:38 |
| lifeless | In my head we totally want both things to be installable. | 19:38 |
| mordred | lifeless: I'm only lurking here, butI'd agree with that | 19:39 |
| lifeless | And -if- there are sufficient resources we should gate on both setups working | 19:39 |
| mordred | I constantly have to communicate to people that tripleo is open | 19:39 |
| lifeless | If there aren't sufficient resources, or if neither is working at all, then we have a triage problem vs an openness problem. | 19:39 |
| lifeless | Same for o*c/puppet/chef - we should totally support what users will want; we deliberately designed to be neutral on the enterprise-CM front by having a super light weight layer that noone can confuse for chef/puppet/salt/ansible etc etc etc | 19:41 |
| lifeless | mordred: thanks for the feedback | 19:41 |
| lifeless | Does anyone disagree with what I'm saying? THis is an idea time to discuss... | 19:41 |
| mordred | one clarifying thing, just so that we don't get in a wad later | 19:42 |
| mordred | I agree with what you said | 19:42 |
| mordred | except | 19:42 |
| mordred | if you combine this sentence: | 19:42 |
| mordred | And -if- there are sufficient resources we should gate on both setups working | 19:42 |
| mordred | with this one: | 19:43 |
| mordred | Same for o*c/puppet/chef - we should totally support what users will want | 19:43 |
| mordred | it might lead people to believe that if we had resources we might gate on puppet or chef | 19:43 |
| mordred | which is not the case | 19:43 |
| lifeless | isn't it? | 19:43 |
| mordred | no | 19:43 |
| mordred | categorically not | 19:43 |
| lifeless | why not? | 19:43 |
| mordred | bcause those aren't about having enough resources | 19:43 |
| mordred | they're about developer segmentation | 19:43 |
| mordred | we want any openstack developer to have a reasonable expectation to be able to debug an issue that pops up in the gate | 19:44 |
| lifeless | So thats not currently touched on in the stuff I wrote up for review in the infra docs | 19:44 |
| mordred | gating on chef or puppet or salt increases teh surface area to an unreasonable amount of material each developer would need to grok | 19:44 |
| lifeless | about requirements to have things gated | 19:44 |
| clarkb | lifeless: right thats the bits I was talking about needing more 'why' | 19:45 |
| mordred | I think it's a different thing | 19:45 |
| lifeless | I don't disagree with you, but thats a infra constraint, not a tripleo constraint | 19:45 |
| mordred | or a different aspect of the same | 19:45 |
| mordred | it's neither | 19:45 |
| mordred | it's a project constraint | 19:45 |
| mordred | well, scuse me - said that wrong | 19:45 |
| lifeless | we're about to rathole; but | 19:45 |
| mordred | it's not an infra constraint either- we can and do run puppet/chef | 19:45 |
| mordred | but yes | 19:45 |
| slagle | what's the way forward on getting the work we did for the puppet based elements as "part of tripleo"? | 19:45 |
| mordred | just wantedot clarify yourlanguage | 19:45 |
| slagle | should we propose for stackforge or something? | 19:46 |
| lifeless | openstack as a whole is very wide already - I doubt any single developer truely understands cinder + neutron + tempest + nova + all the clients + devstack + d-g + jenkins + nodepool sufficiently well to debug any arbitrary gate failure | 19:46 |
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| ccrouch | lifeless: +1 | 19:46 |
| dprince | lifeless: I do | 19:46 |
| lifeless | mordred: so what you're saying isn't actually making sense to me | 19:46 |
| * dprince :) | 19:46 | |
| mordred | d-g + jenkins + nodepool | 19:46 |
| mordred | are not required for the dev to understand | 19:46 |
| mordred | they are not relevant | 19:46 |
| mordred | they dev DOES need to understand and be able to reproduce devstack + clients + their code | 19:47 |
| mordred | adn they can do that right now | 19:47 |
| lifeless | mordred: d-g and jenkins are; nodepool you are right | 19:47 |
| mordred | no, they are not | 19:47 |
| lifeless | mordred: hang on, you just massively reduced the scope by saying 'their code', not 'all of openstack' | 19:47 |
| mordred | it is totally possible for a dev to reproduce a failure without jenkins | 19:47 |
| mordred | ok | 19:47 |
| mordred | back to the beginning | 19:47 |
| mordred | because we're in the middle | 19:47 |
| lifeless | mordred: but you're assessing whether gating on e.g. chef would make sense for part of tripleo by 'any openstack developer', not by 'tripleo devs' | 19:47 |
| lifeless | thats inconsistent | 19:47 |
| mordred | ok. we are talking about two different thigns | 19:48 |
| mordred | let's finish talking about hte first one | 19:48 |
| dprince | As someone who has run quite a bit of puppet/chef upstream in the past I'm quite used to the idea of them being considered 3rd party. | 19:48 |
| lifeless | slagle: the puppet stuff needs to meet the technical aspects - decoupling the things it conflates - then its fine to come in | 19:48 |
| dprince | Having them upstream might be a good feedback loop however. | 19:48 |
| mordred | the point of any of this is that a developer who uploads a change should have a reasonable expectation of being able to locally test the change as the gate tests it | 19:49 |
| mordred | so that if the gate fails their change | 19:49 |
| lifeless | So it may be moot, as I'm confident we don't have test resources yet. | 19:49 |
| mordred | they have a reasonable expectation that they can debug the problem | 19:49 |
| mordred | that's a design tenant for the gate and always has been | 19:49 |
| slagle | lifeless: not sure i follow. you mean seperating the element that enables puppet support vs the ones that are puppet based? | 19:50 |
| mordred | lifeless: does that part make sense? | 19:50 |
| lifeless | slagle: supporting package based install vs supporting puppet for CM in the deployed image vs actual puppet details of CM | 19:50 |
| lifeless | mordred: sure | 19:51 |
| slagle | yea, ok, makes sense. i think we were going to try an split that stuff up | 19:51 |
| mordred | great. so that's the general integrated gate | 19:51 |
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| mordred | now, as for having a tripleo specific gating test that gates on things all the way including running puppet in node ... honestly that's a new scenario that I don't think we've well defined yet | 19:52 |
| mordred | I would be opposed to gating nova on that | 19:52 |
| mordred | but I think an argument could be made that a tripleo gate containing that could be in-game | 19:52 |
| lifeless | I think of the same way as things like postgresql - and yes I know we have headaches with that :) | 19:53 |
| lifeless | which is that where there is a pluggable layer with significant community interest, and we have resources [provided by said community], gating on it is beneficial to keeping it intact. | 19:53 |
| dprince | mordred: if we don't gate Nova on it too then it'll just end up broken, no? | 19:53 |
| lifeless | And it will have the same headaches if the level of interest is too low. | 19:53 |
| mordred | dprince: it's possible | 19:53 |
| lifeless | so I think we need to be very clear about the commitment needed to add extra backends to the gate | 19:54 |
| mordred | dprince: but I do not think that the puppet/chef rule changes just because we're doing tripleo and not devstack | 19:54 |
| dprince | I see this whole space as 3rd party | 19:54 |
| dprince | And very valuable all the same. | 19:54 |
| lifeless | ok, I'm going to timebox this now | 19:54 |
| mordred | kk | 19:54 |
| lifeless | since we have 6 minutes | 19:54 |
| dprince | People get all worked up about gates sometimes. | 19:54 |
| mordred | sorry for the diversion | 19:54 |
| lifeless | #topic open discussion | 19:54 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "open discussion (Meeting topic: tripleo)" | 19:54 | |
| lifeless | now of course, if y'all want 6 minutes of gate discussion, go to town | 19:55 |
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| marios | has anyone given thought to the whole merge.py/tripleo-heat-templates long term? | 19:55 |
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| lifeless | marios: yes, that should be entirely HOT | 19:56 |
| marios | i ask because we're trying to get tuskar using that (merge.py) | 19:56 |
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| stevebaker | there needs to be some kind of client-side inclusion mechanism | 19:56 |
| lifeless | marios: a small number of highly parameterisable templates, they should live in tripleo-heat-templates (as they should be directly usable) and tuskar shouldn't need to do any mangling of them at all. | 19:56 |
| marios | so one thing... could we make merge.py have a'main' so i canimport and call, vs something fugly like subprocess | 19:56 |
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| lifeless | marios: totally - just add it | 19:57 |
| slagle | that came up in a design session. the plan is to clearly identify why merge.py exists and how we use it, and submit as enhancements to Heat | 19:57 |
| marios | lifeless: ack, kinda working on that on my local branch but wanted to sanity check | 19:57 |
| marios | thanks | 19:57 |
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| marios | slagle: i'll ping you about that tomrorrow - would like to hear more | 19:58 |
| lifeless | in general, tuskar needs to lean /much/ more heavily on nova and neutron - we need to stop manually scheduling stuff and depend on nova/heat to get it right | 19:58 |
| stevebaker | It might be that only individual resource properties need an inclusion mechanism | 19:58 |
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| lifeless | I have on my todo to review where we are at and describe clearly whats in my head for getting long term reuse | 19:58 |
| marios | lifeless: yes... that whole business of the 'bash script in heat meatdata to create flavors' etc... (as one example) is one of the things we need to resolve this next sprint | 19:58 |
| lifeless | marios: interestingly, I was chatting with mikal | 19:59 |
| lifeless | marios: and he did not understand *at all* why flavor creation was at all interesting for tuskar. | 19:59 |
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| lifeless | marios: so - one thing I think we might want to do is validate that vs deployer needs. | 19:59 |
| marios | lifeless: yeah. i guess the hk demo wasn't demonstrating that since there was only one compute class created | 19:59 |
| lifeless | marios: not even that | 20:00 |
| lifeless | marios: I went through it with him on sunday | 20:00 |
| lifeless | marios: and he just didn't get the value, even if you have multiple different hardware profiles like racksapce does. | 20:00 |
| lifeless | marios: I am worried we're solving a problem that we only think deployers have. | 20:00 |
| lifeless | ok, sorry to cut this short, but EOM. | 20:01 |
| lifeless | #endmeeting | 20:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Action items from the last meeting (Meeting topic: savanna)" | 20:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Tue Nov 12 20:01:03 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tripleo/2013/tripleo.2013-11-12-19.00.html | 20:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tripleo/2013/tripleo.2013-11-12-19.00.txt | 20:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tripleo/2013/tripleo.2013-11-12-19.00.log.html | 20:01 |
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| marios | lifeless: ok, lets talk some more later/tomorrow | 20:01 |
| lifeless | marios: ack | 20:01 |
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| lsmola_ | thanks, bye | 20:02 |
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