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| mclaren | markwash: hey | 15:01 |
|---|---|---|
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| markwash | mclaren: hello | 15:02 |
| markwash | hmm, do you think we can have it in here? | 15:02 |
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| mclaren | markwash: wasn't sure ... is openstack-glance better? | 15:03 |
| markwash | this might be better, and I think its free | 15:03 |
| markwash | the meeting schedule indicates it is free | 15:03 |
| mclaren | ah, ok so :-) lets squat! | 15:04 |
| markwash | #startmeeting glance | 15:04 |
| openstack | Meeting started Fri Nov 15 15:04:39 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is markwash. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:04 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: glance)" | 15:04 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'glance' | 15:04 |
| iccha | hey | 15:04 |
| rosmaita | howdy | 15:04 |
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| flaper87 | o/ | 15:05 |
| mclaren | hey all, not sure if everyone got a chance to see the latest draft of the doc I put together? | 15:05 |
| * rosmaita is reading now | 15:06 | |
| iccha | same here | 15:06 |
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| iccha | thanks for putting together the document mclaren | 15:06 |
| mclaren | https://region-a.geo-1.objects.hpcloudsvc.com/v1/61624292678963/public_referenced/consistent-multi-tenant-swift-backend.pdf | 15:06 |
| markwash | #topic swift backend and security | 15:06 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "swift backend and security (Meeting topic: glance)" | 15:06 | |
| markwash | I'm still catching up to the latest revision | 15:06 |
| mclaren | np, its all selfishly motivated, I'll like to sleep more peacefully ;-) | 15:06 |
| markwash | I was going over this with a security guy recently, and realized again how desperately we need a fix for this | 15:07 |
| mclaren | So I still don't have a perfect proposal... | 15:07 |
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| mclaren | Closest right now is a 2nd swift (but expensive, admin headache etc) | 15:08 |
| mclaren | Anyone know any Keystone gurus? I hit the limit of knowlege on how they might be able to help really fast | 15:08 |
| rosmaita | mclaren: quick question | 15:08 |
| mclaren | sure | 15:08 |
| rosmaita | for multitenant, are images really stored one-per-container (bottom of p 1)? | 15:09 |
| rosmaita | (i am completely ignorant of multitenant) | 15:09 |
| markwash | rosmaita: yes | 15:09 |
| mclaren | I believe so, I think that must be the case because Swift ACLs are at the container level | 15:09 |
| iccha | thats how we can share images | 15:09 |
| iccha | with per containter image acls | 15:09 |
| iccha | by granting other users read priviledge | 15:10 |
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| mclaren | yup | 15:10 |
| mclaren | I'm interested to know how people feel about | 15:10 |
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| mclaren | multi-tenant being less fragile than single tenant | 15:11 |
| iccha | like you mentioned mclaren the biggest concern is user being able to access them directly outside of glance and manipulatun them | 15:11 |
| iccha | i definitely see the benefits of multitenant | 15:11 |
| iccha | also ho easy/painful would it be to migrate from single tenant to multitenant? | 15:11 |
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| markwash | I do personally wonder if multitenant even really works at a basic level | 15:11 |
| markwash | for a long time the basic sharing aspect did not work with swift acls | 15:12 |
| mclaren | markwash: ok, can you expand? do you mean the current implementation? | 15:12 |
| markwash | yeah | 15:12 |
| rosmaita | well, as mclaren points out, it's a pretty crappy user experience when you list your containers | 15:12 |
| markwash | I also wonder if we could accomplish some of the general robustness to deletion of X by allowing for a more complex default structure among swift containers in the single tenant store | 15:13 |
| iccha | could you elaborate markwash | 15:13 |
| markwash | like, instead of having one default set of credentials for all writes | 15:13 |
| markwash | we could have some sort of round-robin | 15:13 |
| markwash | so that folks generally ended up with multiple equally balanced containers | 15:14 |
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| mclaren | so password change issues with that! :-P | 15:14 |
| mclaren | so/no | 15:14 |
| markwash | let's talk about password changes for a sec | 15:15 |
| markwash | I have a naive hope | 15:15 |
| iccha | have we eliminated all possible work arounds for password issue? | 15:15 |
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| iccha | markwash: types faster than me :p | 15:15 |
| markwash | which is that it is possible to have multiple passwords simultaneously valid on a given account | 15:15 |
| mclaren | I think that the user access key keystone blueprint gives hope in that area | 15:15 |
| iccha | mclaren: can you link to the bp? | 15:16 |
| mclaren | it would allow rolling upload of credentials (key now rather than p/w) | 15:16 |
| markwash | so that way you can do a simple "add second creds", "roll update to creds", "delete old creds" | 15:16 |
| markwash | ah good | 15:16 |
| markwash | mclaren: how much of the issue with password updates would that resolve? | 15:16 |
| mclaren | https://blueprints.launchpad.net/keystone/+spec/access-key-authentication | 15:16 |
| mclaren | a lot | 15:17 |
| iccha | and we would abstract away the user credentials from locatuion | 15:17 |
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| iccha | and store it elsewhere like config? | 15:17 |
| iccha | is that what you re thinking about mark? | 15:17 |
| mclaren | but personally I feel multi-tenant has fewer paths to disaster | 15:17 |
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| mclaren | if we switched to user access keys we're still storing them on disk and can still leak them | 15:18 |
| markwash | mclaren: I definitely get that. . I'm just worried about the changes to swift we might need for multi-tenant to get someplace good | 15:18 |
| mclaren | the Zen of no-password in the multi-tenant approach I find hugely appealing, and the distributed container nature | 15:18 |
| markwash | multi-tenant on an internal-only swift is pretty much the "best" solution | 15:18 |
| markwash | but I don't think its viable for any other deployers than the largest | 15:19 |
| iccha | but unfortunately hardest one to actually do | 15:19 |
| mclaren | sure, I do wonder if there's some keystone 'magic' that could help (waves hands) | 15:19 |
| iccha | rosmaita: and me were having the same discussion if we could blacklist/white ips to contains | 15:20 |
| iccha | *containers in swift | 15:20 |
| markwash | talking about passwords again for a moment | 15:20 |
| markwash | I think the highest priority concern on the list is the fact that passwords are being stored in a database (even encrypted is pretty bad) | 15:20 |
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| rosmaita | yes, makes it impossible to change pw without big DB operations (very slow) | 15:21 |
| markwash | rosmaita: well, we could fix the speed of that DB update just by normalizing out the credentials to their own table | 15:22 |
| mclaren | yes and no, if the API process has an all powerful password in plaintext it can leak it -- this has happened before and is *bad* | 15:22 |
| markwash | but again, that means anyone who owns the db anywhere can try to attack those passwords | 15:22 |
| markwash | mclaren: hmm, good point. . but the only way to get around that is to figure out going completely passwordless, right? | 15:23 |
| mclaren | I think the single tenant password change is solvable, but I want to go futher! | 15:23 |
| mclaren | right | 15:24 |
| notmyname | would temporary URLs in swift be useful here? | 15:24 |
| notmyname | ie a signed URL that doesn't require extra creds? | 15:24 |
| markwash | okiedokie. . I'll back off for a bit. . I'm still really interested in your "best" approach :-) | 15:24 |
| markwash | notmyname: I think that does help us with the "client downloads image directly from swift" story | 15:25 |
| iccha | notmyname: we would still need the store creentials in a single tenant approach right? | 15:25 |
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| notmyname | iccha: you would need to know the shared secret, which is set on a per-account basis | 15:25 |
| markwash | notmyname: but glance still needs credentials in some form to have permissions to generate that temp url | 15:25 |
| markwash | yeah | 15:25 |
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| notmyname | markwash: if the shared secret is known, the tempurl can be generated with no other access required | 15:26 |
| iccha | notmyname: but we would need to store the shared secret | 15:26 |
| notmyname | markwash: and you can fetcht he shared secret if you have the creds for the account (ie it's set in account metadata) | 15:26 |
| nikhil__ | o/ | 15:27 |
| markwash | interesting | 15:27 |
| notmyname | and I'm guessing you already have the user creds | 15:27 |
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| mclaren | I did think about a per container shared secret with signing as part of a dual auth approach, is that roughtly what we're talking about? | 15:27 |
| nikhil__ | wonder if you all thinking about shared secrets, we can try to think about a 3 pass auth mechnism | 15:27 |
| notmyname | http://docs.openstack.org/developer/swift/misc.html#module-swift.common.middleware.tempurl | 15:27 |
| mclaren | are we trying to suggest a way to prevent a user modifying objects in their own container? | 15:28 |
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| * markwash is not sure | 15:29 | |
| iccha | so glance would have shared secret+user token from context. but users would not have shared secret so cannot access it ? is this a swft setting to ensure dual auth? | 15:29 |
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| markwash | it seems kind of like we're all focusing on different things right now | 15:29 |
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| markwash | which is good for parallelism, but really hard to construct a coherent conversation out of it | 15:30 |
| iccha | +1 | 15:30 |
| notmyname | seems like you were looking for a way to give people access to an object without having to create many different containers. tempurl is a way to do it | 15:30 |
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| markwash | so the focus right now I think is still, how could we make multitenant viable so that we could go passwordless | 15:31 |
| markwash | mclaren: do you agree with that focus for the moment? | 15:31 |
| mclaren | ok, we can investigate if tempurl potentially helps with that | 15:31 |
| mclaren | markwash: yes | 15:31 |
| mclaren | I think extra swift hardware is one way, and the holy grail is something software based | 15:31 |
| markwash | software based -> something like an internal only endpoint | 15:32 |
| mclaren | exactly | 15:32 |
| markwash | or a way to mark a container ABAC as "internal only" ? | 15:32 |
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| mclaren | like a virtual region (waves handes) | 15:32 |
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| mclaren | yeah | 15:32 |
| iccha | you read my mind mclaren | 15:32 |
| markwash | ABAC = attribute based access control, where something like your ip, or the interface you came in on, is an attribute | 15:33 |
| iccha | yeah like the whitelisting concept | 15:33 |
| markwash | one potential problem with this approach | 15:33 |
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| markwash | is that it would cause headaches for existing billing folks | 15:33 |
| markwash | because I think the normal right now is to charge folks for their swift storage & their glance image storage | 15:33 |
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| iccha | is the charge different? | 15:34 |
| mclaren | that's on the swift side, there may be keystone possibilities (eg https://github.com/openstack/keystone/commit/601eeb50b60a2e99041690fe19238202bc203503) but my knowlege on keystone is poor | 15:34 |
| markwash | iccha: well, in such a system, if we rolled this out it would suddenly be charging double, even if they're the same | 15:34 |
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| mclaren | personally I think billing is a secondary issue; design a robust system then figure out how to charge the $ | 15:35 |
| markwash | mclaren: that makes sense | 15:35 |
| rosmaita | it would require coordination before rollout | 15:35 |
| rosmaita | but not insurmountable | 15:35 |
| markwash | mclaren: would users be able to see such a container in their account? | 15:35 |
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| mclaren | so, anyone know any keystone gurus? :-) | 15:35 |
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| nikhil__ | markwash: if we keep pass in db and send it as a "digest" we can aboid whitelisting | 15:36 |
| mclaren | markwash: ideally no, ideally users wouldn't even know swift is the backend | 15:36 |
| nikhil__ | (single tenant) | 15:37 |
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| markwash | well, one thing to keep in mind is that this effort would be concurrent to the general effort of always publishing the location details | 15:37 |
| dolphm | o/ | 15:37 |
| markwash | oh, hey, I know a keystone guru :-) | 15:37 |
| iccha | and keystone guu appears | 15:37 |
| markwash | hi dolphm | 15:37 |
| dolphm | \o/ | 15:37 |
| markwash | A keystone guru uses knowledge! Its super effective. | 15:38 |
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| mclaren | hey dolphm general background doc for some night time reading https://region-a.geo-1.objects.hpcloudsvc.com/v1/61624292678963/public_referenced/consistent-multi-tenant-swift-backend.pdf | 15:38 |
| dolphm | mclaren: thanks | 15:38 |
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| mclaren | np, its basically a big shopping list with no solid proposals :-P | 15:39 |
| mclaren | although I do think that a multi-tenant approach feels right | 15:39 |
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| iccha | maybe we could start by asking dolphm the questions we had about what keystone could do or might be planning to do | 15:39 |
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| dolphm | (i'm reading this doc, but fire away) | 15:40 |
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| markwash | mclaren: i think you could probably state the questions best | 15:40 |
| mclaren | ok | 15:40 |
| mclaren | I think we're wondering if there is something which exists in keystone | 15:41 |
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| mclaren | or could be reasonably implemented | 15:41 |
| mclaren | which would give us a 'consistent multi tenant' solution | 15:41 |
| dolphm | in the multi-tenant case, shouldn't glance be querying the container for the images, rather than relying on it's own stale db? | 15:42 |
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| mclaren | swift objects would be stored on behalf of a user but would not be directly accessible by that user | 15:42 |
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| dolphm | except for a special group of users, everyone else only needs read access to the container for the multi-tenant solution? | 15:42 |
| mclaren | hmm | 15:43 |
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| markwash | its like we're looking for another swift endpoint that in general is guaranteed to have some sort of internal-only ABAC restriction on it | 15:43 |
| dolphm | it seems like you want some images shared, and some images managed privately per-tenant? | 15:43 |
| dolphm | markwash: abac or rbac? | 15:43 |
| markwash | abac | 15:43 |
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| dolphm | markwash: based on what attributes? | 15:43 |
| mclaren | dolphm: shared images can be handled easily enough with swift ACLs I think | 15:43 |
| markwash | network location, as a straw man | 15:44 |
| mclaren | so I think considering just the non-shared case at first keeps it a little simpler | 15:44 |
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| dolphm | is it one container per image in the multi-tenant case? | 15:44 |
| mclaren | yes | 15:44 |
| dolphm | i guess the other way around (one image per container) | 15:45 |
| markwash | that's just there for sharing, we could change that | 15:45 |
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| iccha | markwash: is there object level acl in swift? | 15:45 |
| mclaren | swift ACLs are enforced on a container so it may be practical to keep that way of working | 15:45 |
| notmyname | sharing can be done with tempurls. which would then allow you to do one glance account + one container per tenant | 15:45 |
| dolphm | iccha: i thought there was? | 15:45 |
| dolphm | chmouel: o/ | 15:45 |
| mclaren | no object level ACLs in swift I believe | 15:46 |
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| notmyname | no. ACLs are container-based | 15:46 |
| dolphm | notmyname: thanks! | 15:46 |
| markwash | iccha: let's just forget about sharing for now. if we had this swift solution we could make it so only glance has access to the containers and still manage sharing | 15:46 |
| iccha | makes sense | 15:46 |
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| markwash | dolphm: on a slightly different thread, can I use trusts/delegation to give someone a token that only allows them to download a single object from swift? | 15:47 |
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| chmouel | mclaren: no object acl indeed | 15:48 |
| chmouel | dolphm: ^ | 15:48 |
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| dolphm | markwash: unfortunately, no | 15:48 |
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| dolphm | markwash: roles wouldn't be granular enough | 15:48 |
| markwash | k, I guess tempurl is enough for that anyway | 15:48 |
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| markwash | mclaren: is it fair to say that the big need in this approach is for swift containers that are only accessible over the internal endpoint? | 15:49 |
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| dolphm | i'd argue with the 'accidental deletion of X' "characteristics" -- those are natural consequences and shouldn't be avoided | 15:50 |
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| notmyname | FWIW, tempurl is essentially an auth system itself. if someone in the keystone world wanted something to work on, I supposed keystone could implement it too | 15:50 |
| mclaren | dolphm: not sure I understand? | 15:50 |
| dolphm | mclaren: notmyname: it's a "bearer" url, the "token" is just encoded in the URL | 15:51 |
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| markwash | notmyname: is there anyway to create a container that the "owner" is not allowed to delete or list, but that the glance service user would be allowed to manipulate? | 15:53 |
| mclaren | markwash: really its a way to store the data out of the direct reach of users | 15:53 |
| dolphm | “Users should not be able to perform operations to manipulate image data directly via the Swift Api." why not? | 15:53 |
| notmyname | markwash: that would be possible to do in auth middleware in swift (ie without changing "core" swift) | 15:53 |
| markwash | notmyname: gotcha, so it would require new work, but that work would have a pretty clear place to live? | 15:53 |
| iccha | dolphm: we want glance to reflect the current state of images | 15:53 |
| mclaren | dolphm: image data is immutable | 15:54 |
| notmyname | markwash: but I'm not sure I understand the use case of storing something on behalf of someone where they can't do anything to it | 15:54 |
| notmyname | markwash: correct | 15:54 |
| markwash | notmyname: store images in the users swift account, but don't let them muck with it and inevitably generate support calls | 15:54 |
| mclaren | notmyname: they can access it, but only in ways defined by Glance | 15:54 |
| rosmaita | the reason is that glance stores all metadata about the image, need to keep metadata consistent with the actual image | 15:54 |
| markwash | mclaren's way of saying it was better :-) | 15:54 |
| dolphm | iccha: why is that mutually exclusive with users deleting images in swift, etc? why can't glance pull information from swift? | 15:54 |
| notmyname | markwash: hmm...actually I was typing that answer thinking about the ABAC, not the "hidden" containers | 15:55 |
| mclaren | markwash's had real world cred :-) | 15:55 |
| dolphm | notmyname: are hidden containers a thing? | 15:55 |
| notmyname | dolphm: no | 15:55 |
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| markwash | notmyname: well, blocking "list objects" for that container may be sufficient | 15:56 |
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| notmyname | markwash: isn't that essentially about tying stuff together at the identity/billing level? what I'm not clear on is why that requires special features in swift | 15:56 |
| markwash | notmyname: it is, and that's how our other approach works | 15:56 |
| iccha | markwash: this sounds like policies at container level :) | 15:57 |
| markwash | however, we really like just reusing the users credentials when they contact us | 15:57 |
| notmyname | ie why not have a separate glance account? | 15:57 |
| mclaren | notmyname: right, 'something' in keystone may help us... | 15:57 |
| dolphm | mclaren: i'm not sure what that would be :( | 15:57 |
| markwash | notmyname: essentially, we don't want to store a set of credentials that has super-ultra-mega access to all the images in the cloud | 15:57 |
| dolphm | it seems like the blocker here is glance being unwilling/unable to read from swift | 15:57 |
| mclaren | dolphm: guru status revoked :-P | 15:57 |
| notmyname | markwash: ok (unlike an admin token to keystone? /troll) | 15:58 |
| dolphm | markwash: ++ | 15:58 |
| kgriffs | fwiw, we ran into a similar issue at Rackspace when creating Cloud Backup | 15:58 |
| kgriffs | it is a big security risk to dump everyone's data together under one ueber account | 15:59 |
| markwash | notmyname: troll point taken :-) | 15:59 |
| iccha | dolphm: here is a usecase. there is no way to maintain the integrity of snapshots if we allow users to directly access and manipulate their images in swift | 15:59 |
| dolphm | notmyname: <troll acknowledged> | 15:59 |
| rosmaita | kgriffs: tell us more | 15:59 |
| kgriffs | but, on the other hand, we don't want users messing around with their backup sets directly | 15:59 |
| markwash | dolphm: hmm, I'm not sure I understand what you mean about "not being willing to read from swift" ? | 15:59 |
| dolphm | kgriffs: what's was the solution?! | 15:59 |
| kgriffs | and it adds a lot of noise when they are looking at their account in the control panel or whatever | 16:00 |
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| dolphm | markwash: a bunch of the points in that pdf would be resolved by understanding that glance's knowledge of image states is stale, and pulling the latest data from swift as necessary | 16:00 |
| kgriffs | dolphm: we don't have a great one; just naming the backup containers something that makes it obvious what they are | 16:00 |
| markwash | dolphm: ah okay I see | 16:00 |
| dolphm | kgriffs: that's kind of what i was thinking here | 16:01 |
| kgriffs | and putting a 0-byte file in there that says "do not delete this container!" | 16:01 |
| dolphm | glance-image-{uuid} or something | 16:01 |
| dolphm | as the container name | 16:01 |
| iccha | hmmm but that way we cannot control downloads directly | 16:01 |
| markwash | mclaren: I'd like to put my ptl hat on for the last 5 minutes of this meeting, is it that time? | 16:01 |
| mclaren | sure | 16:01 |
| kgriffs | tbh, if there just a way to not make those containers show up when listing their account, that would be great | 16:02 |
| kgriffs | sorry, make them *not* show up | 16:02 |
| markwash | <ptl> I think the passwordless approach shows a lot of promise, but still needs a lot more thought | 16:02 |
| markwash | if we can't quite figure it out, I still think we should make progress by moving the swift "single-tenant" creds into config from the db | 16:02 |
| markwash | in that case, we're cutting out a significant opportunity to attack those creds | 16:03 |
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| markwash | in my view, the most significant opportunity | 16:03 |
| markwash | </ptl> | 16:03 |
| markwash | phew | 16:03 |
| iccha | markwash: are you concerned about storing password(encrypted) on disk as well? | 16:03 |
| markwash | iccha: somewhat, but not nearly as much as storing it in DB | 16:04 |
| mclaren | how about a new location format to denote read creds from file? | 16:04 |
| mclaren | something like https+swift://:@xxx.com | 16:04 |
| mclaren | I suspect that may be illegal right now | 16:04 |
| markwash | mclaren: yeah, then I think we could make an online migration tool for it that would update a row at a time | 16:05 |
| mclaren | we'd have to be careful with set image location -- to forbid that | 16:05 |
| notmyname | I gotta run, but if you have more stuff you need to discuss about swift, please ask in #openstack-swift | 16:05 |
| markwash | mclaren: I like that way of thinking about it actually | 16:05 |
| markwash | "read from file" | 16:05 |
| mclaren | notmyname: thanks | 16:06 |
| markwash | that puts a logical cap around how long those creds exist in the code | 16:06 |
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| markwash | so opportunities to accidentally log them are much less | 16:06 |
| markwash | though moving creds out of the location is the biggest win there too | 16:06 |
| markwash | imnsho | 16:06 |
| iccha | there is patch with exists to substute it with hiddenuser or some other value right now | 16:07 |
| mclaren | ok, thanks to everyone for their time. Let us know if you come up with some genious way to add consistency to the multi-tenant backend | 16:07 |
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| markwash | should I bang the gavel? | 16:08 |
| mclaren | yup, thanks markwash | 16:08 |
| markwash | #endmeeting | 16:08 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:08 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Fri Nov 15 16:08:50 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:08 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2013/glance.2013-11-15-15.04.html | 16:08 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2013/glance.2013-11-15-15.04.txt | 16:08 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/glance/2013/glance.2013-11-15-15.04.log.html | 16:08 |
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