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| cody-somerville | #startmeeting storyboard | 14:19 |
|---|---|---|
| openstack | Meeting started Thu Nov 28 14:19:16 2013 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is cody-somerville. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 14:19 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 14:19 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: storyboard)" | 14:19 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'storyboard' | 14:19 |
| mordred | o/ | 14:19 |
| ttx | o/ | 14:19 |
| NikitaKonovalov | hi | 14:19 |
| mordred | lookie here. how exciting | 14:19 |
| *** SergeyLukjanov has joined #openstack-meeting-alt | 14:19 | |
| cody-somerville | #topic Introductions | 14:20 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Introductions (Meeting topic: storyboard)" | 14:20 | |
| SergeyLukjanov | o/ | 14:20 |
| cody-somerville | So I thought we could first start by introducing ourselves, where we're based out of, why we're interested in storyboard, and how we're interested in helping. | 14:21 |
| cody-somerville | SergeyLukjanov: Would you like to start? | 14:21 |
| SergeyLukjanov | cody-somerville, sure | 14:21 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | I'm the Savanna PTL, I'm interested in cool issues/specs tracking system | 14:22 |
| SergeyLukjanov | :) | 14:22 |
| SergeyLukjanov | especially for releasing, milestones, series and etc. | 14:22 |
| * mordred is on infra-core, and employs a set of people who will be hacking on this. also wants to finish killing launchpad | 14:23 | |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: if everything goes well for Savanna, you might not have any time left anymore though. | 14:23 |
| ttx | Hi! You know me, based in France. Mostly interested in making sure the end result stays in the original philosophy and serves OpenStack coordination needs. Might continue coding it in my copious free time, just because I like small projects. | 14:24 |
| mordred | ttx: you have plenty of free time | 14:24 |
| ttx | mordred: I do! | 14:24 |
| ttx | all my time is free as in freedom. | 14:24 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, I know now how it works and I'd like to make this process better :) | 14:24 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, and we have a lot of other projects on stackforge | 14:25 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov: ack | 14:25 |
| cody-somerville | My name is Cody, I'm in Ottawa Canada, interested in helping realize ttx's vision, and particularly interested in helping out from architectural and implementation perspective. | 14:25 |
| NikitaKonovalov | I have been developing a Horizon plugin for Savanna recently, and I'm interested in developing smart UI's, and since Storyboard is just starting, I see a great opportunity in it | 14:26 |
| cody-somerville | I'm also in the process of hiring a set of people to help with storyboard development (I work for Monty). | 14:26 |
| cody-somerville | Awesome. | 14:27 |
| ttx | cody-somerville: do you have a vague timeframe for that hiring process ? | 14:27 |
| cody-somerville | ttx: So far I have two people starting on December 9th. | 14:27 |
| SergeyLukjanov | fwiw I'm dreaming about useful reporting, stats and etc... | 14:27 |
| ttx | cody-somerville: are their names public yet? | 14:28 |
| cody-somerville | Awesome. I think that's everybody here today. Thank you SergeyLukjanov, mordred, ttx, and NikitaKonovalov :) | 14:28 |
| ruhe | hi. i'd like to contribute all my available time to storyboard too. things i'd like to improve: search and reporting | 14:28 |
| cody-somerville | Oh. Hey there ruhe! | 14:28 |
| ttx | ruhe: awesome! | 14:28 |
| cody-somerville | Welcome! | 14:28 |
| mordred | cody-somerville, ttx: we sent out a third and fourth offer 2 days ago | 14:28 |
| mordred | tentative start date dec 16 | 14:29 |
| cody-somerville | ttx: Haven't released any names publicly per-say. | 14:30 |
| ttx | cody-somerville: ok | 14:30 |
| cody-somerville | #topic Proposal: Use storyboard to develop storyboard - CD/CI from trunk to instance used track and plan storyboard development. | 14:31 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Proposal: Use storyboard to develop storyboard - CD/CI from trunk to instance used track and plan storyboard development. (Meeting topic: storyboard)" | 14:31 | |
| ttx | cody-somerville: I think that's a good idea, the trick is to arrive to the point where we can actually do that. Which would be.. a stable DB schema, I'd say | 14:31 |
| mordred | so, last time jeblair and I talked, he said "fix the leave-comments bug and infra can start using it now" | 14:31 |
| cody-somerville | I'd like to propose that our first goal should be to take what we have and get it up and running with CD/CI from trunk and use that instance to track and plan storyboard. | 14:32 |
| SergeyLukjanov | cody-somerville, +1 | 14:32 |
| mordred | yah. I'd like to that too - and if we have to do db migrations, then so be it | 14:32 |
| mordred | otherwise I fear we're going to sit in the land of not-quite-ready for ever | 14:32 |
| cody-somerville | So in today's world, I'm not sure we'll ever have a stable DB and so we might as well solve the problem of db migrations now. | 14:32 |
| ttx | mordred: since I added project groups I think the biggest obvious DB overhauls are done now | 14:33 |
| mordred | yah. I agree | 14:33 |
| NikitaKonovalov | agree, so we have stabilize db and all frameworks around as soon as possible | 14:33 |
| mordred | also, when did I start saying "yah" instead of "ja" ... very weird | 14:33 |
| ttx | and using it for tracking storyboard (instead of ahem github issues) sounds like an obvious first step | 14:33 |
| cody-somerville | Part of that will be investing in some features/scaffolding that is usually more indicative of a more mature project such as feature flags and incrementally landing changes that involve large db changes. | 14:34 |
| mordred | ttx: also, I think infra is game to be an aggressive first guinea pig too | 14:34 |
| SergeyLukjanov | currently we have a django-based PoC and planning to move Pecan/WSME backend | 14:34 |
| ttx | mordred: my only regret will be that it's two projects that won't make a lot of use of cross-project facilities, but meh | 14:34 |
| SergeyLukjanov | it could possible change db schema | 14:34 |
| mordred | SergeyLukjanov: so ... I pitched something to cody-somerville about that the other day | 14:34 |
| ttx | although you could imagine storyboard+infra stories, for sure | 14:35 |
| SergeyLukjanov | in auth/users part especially | 14:35 |
| ttx | oh. | 14:35 |
| ttx | oh. | 14:35 |
| NikitaKonovalov | we still can use wiki to keep important data safe, which db model | 14:35 |
| ttx | actually... | 14:35 |
| NikitaKonovalov | which -> when | 14:35 |
| mordred | which is that I _think_ we might want to think about pecan/wsme as a v2 idea | 14:35 |
| ttx | mordred: infra would be split by repo and use an "Infrastructure" project group | 14:35 |
| mordred | ttx: ooh. excellent! | 14:35 |
| ttx | since tere is a strong project/repo relationship in storyboard | 14:35 |
| mordred | yah. I think that's a great idea | 14:36 |
| ttx | mordred: so it would make sense to dogfood that extensively | 14:36 |
| SergeyLukjanov | my concern is that if we'll continue developing current code than migration to pecan/wsme will be full rewrite | 14:36 |
| mordred | SergeyLukjanov: so, if we get storyboard up and going and CI/CD on the django | 14:36 |
| mordred | and then we have a period of a month where we're not landing new features because we're redoing plumbing | 14:36 |
| cody-somerville | with regards to Pecan/WSME, I think we need to evaluate that further. | 14:36 |
| mordred | and then we have a downtime event to do a migration - I think I'm fine with that | 14:36 |
| mordred | SergeyLukjanov: it might be a full rewrite - but it might also be able to be done incrementally | 14:37 |
| ttx | mordred: you could also additionally use a specific projects for random "infra" requests like tickets from people who have no clue if it belongs to config or jeepyb (i.e. most people) | 14:37 |
| ttx | i.e. infra-tickets or something | 14:37 |
| mordred | SergeyLukjanov: if we started by just splitting out the current db model and putting a pecan/wsme api on top of the current model api | 14:37 |
| ttx | we need support for fake projects anyway, for stuff like OSSA/OSSN | 14:37 |
| mordred | ttx: ++ | 14:37 |
| ttx | (i.e. stuff where the fix is not a commit) | 14:38 |
| mordred | SergeyLukjanov: I agree though about auth getting more complex | 14:38 |
| mordred | :) | 14:38 |
| ttx | the more I think about it, the awesomer it gets. | 14:38 |
| SergeyLukjanov | mordred, I mean that if we'll continue developing current code for the *long* time than ... | 14:38 |
| mordred | yah | 14:38 |
| cody-somerville | We're getting a bit offtopic. | 14:38 |
| mordred | I think if we hack on it even for a little bit so that we get our hands dirty with | 14:38 |
| mordred | it | 14:38 |
| ttx | indeed. | 14:38 |
| mordred | it'll help to be able to make better long-term framework decisions | 14:39 |
| mordred | (I think we're still on topic) | 14:39 |
| cody-somerville | (ttx: I'd like to solve that problem more gracefully then with fake projects, I have some ideas) | 14:39 |
| mordred | because we're talking about the pros and cons of deploying soon | 14:39 |
| SergeyLukjanov | agreed | 14:39 |
| ttx | (cody-somerville: ok, ping me anytime) | 14:39 |
| mordred | but - in any case, I think getting one up and letting a few resilient projects, like storyboard and infra and UX beat on it for a while | 14:40 |
| mordred | it'll serve us well | 14:40 |
| mordred | and then even if we do a full rewrite for a v2 - so be it | 14:40 |
| SergeyLukjanov | sure | 14:40 |
| mordred | v1 took ttx a day or so - a team of us who all grok the problem space should be able to churn out a better v2 in a couple of weeks :) | 14:40 |
| ttx | cody-somerville: so the on-topic answer is yes please. Anything we need to add to current storboard before going in CI/CD mode ? | 14:40 |
| mordred | grokking the problem space as well as ttx is the hardest ramp-up part | 14:41 |
| ttx | mordred: "or so" | 14:41 |
| SergeyLukjanov | probably some more work on v1 could help us to make right decisions | 14:41 |
| mordred | ttx: :) | 14:41 |
| ruhe | we also can import data from LP to storyboard to see how it look on existing projects | 14:41 |
| mordred | ruhe: yes. and even if that isn't the final import tool, I think we'll learn alot about it | 14:41 |
| cody-somerville | mordred: I was thinking this initial goal would be to get something up for storyboard, not necessarily for -infra as well. Are you suggesting the latter? | 14:41 |
| mordred | cody-somerville: I'm suggesting that infra is quite willing to also be early guinea-pigs | 14:41 |
| ttx | cody-somerville: step 1 storyboard, step 2 infra, UI | 14:42 |
| mordred | since this is ultimately part of the infra program | 14:42 |
| mordred | s/quite willing/eager/ | 14:42 |
| cody-somerville | I just want to make sure we properly manage expectations. | 14:42 |
| ttx | I think organizing milestones around what it takes to get new guinea pigs is a good way to prioritize | 14:42 |
| ruhe | ttx, so the plan is to get working rest backend and only then start working on UI part? | 14:42 |
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| mordred | ruhe: nope. we're going to keep working on the current django codebase for now, and start deploying it asap | 14:43 |
| * cody-somerville curses ttx for having such a shiny proof of concept. | 14:43 | |
| ttx | ruhe: I think the rest decoupling (as well as the potential move to SemanticUI) would be parallel to the Ci/CD/onboarding-guinea-pigs effort | 14:43 |
| mordred | ++ | 14:43 |
| ruhe | ok, i see. thanks | 14:43 |
| mordred | I actually think it's great taht ttx's POC is distractingly shiny ... | 14:44 |
| ttx | I don't think anyone in storyboard or infra will require REST or Semantic UI to be present before they start using it | 14:44 |
| mordred | because it points out that at its heart we can keep this relatively simple | 14:44 |
| mordred | that's correct | 14:44 |
| mordred | we'll require that comments work | 14:44 |
| NikitaKonovalov | then, should we have a list of things to do before deploying? | 14:44 |
| mordred | and issues don'tget deleted | 14:44 |
| cody-somerville | To put it another way I guess, storyboard today is so good people want to see and play with it. And it's strategic to do so to establish the project. CI/CD bit makes sense. Also still supports us being able to do fully rewrite still if we decide we need to go in crazy different direction. | 14:44 |
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| mordred | agree | 14:45 |
| mordred | main thing we need is the puppet manifest written :) | 14:45 |
| SergeyLukjanov | yup | 14:45 |
| mordred | luckily - we have at least 2 other django apps we run (I think) so cargo-culting some puppet should not be hard | 14:45 |
| ttx | but yeah. IMHO there are 4 different areas. Concept (like that fake project discussion), Architecture (REST/UI decoulpling), UI (Semantic?), CI/CD/onboard-guinea-pigs | 14:46 |
| cody-somerville | mordred: How easy is it to simulate deployment in say hpcloud of what -infra will do to get it running? | 14:46 |
| cody-somerville | ttx: agreed. | 14:46 |
| SergeyLukjanov | and IMO we need to collect ideas/requirements, prioritize them and map to frameforks | 14:46 |
| ttx | but by using the last to drive the main milestones we stay close to our users | 14:46 |
| SergeyLukjanov | s/frameforks/frameworks/ | 14:47 |
| ttx | We need to tackle Concept asap due to its potential impact on CD | 14:47 |
| mordred | cody-somerville: pretty easy. we've got docs somewhere on how to get started with that | 14:47 |
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| cody-somerville | mordred: Can you shoot me some links? | 14:47 |
| mordred | yes | 14:47 |
| ttx | UI is what I'm the least concerned about. Changing templates is NOT difficult. | 14:48 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, agreed | 14:48 |
| SergeyLukjanov | the main concern for me - correct and stable model / workflows | 14:49 |
| mordred | ++ | 14:49 |
| SergeyLukjanov | we can polish model on current poc except some auth/user related stuff | 14:49 |
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| SergeyLukjanov | and maybe some django stuff | 14:49 |
| ttx | cody-somerville: so yes, agree on CI/CD as a primary target. ideally you would cut that into work items (can't use Storyboard for that yet) | 14:49 |
| ttx | Then second target is to get Storyboard itself to use it | 14:50 |
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| cody-somerville | Aye. | 14:51 |
| cody-somerville | #topic Storyboard Sprint | 14:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Storyboard Sprint (Meeting topic: storyboard)" | 14:51 | |
| SergeyLukjanov | looks like the #2 point will include some work on current code to improve it's usability for developing itself :) | 14:51 |
| cody-somerville | I'd like to gauge interest in people attending an in-person storyboard sprint in the new year, hosted by HP. | 14:52 |
| cody-somerville | If you're interested, please send me your name, e-mail address, location, and availability in the first three months of 2014 and I'll look into the possibility. | 14:53 |
| ruhe | cody-somerville, which part of the globe? ;) | 14:53 |
| cody-somerville | ruhe: Once I gauge interest and know where everyone is based, I'll determine a location with the lowest total cost for everyone. | 14:53 |
| ruhe | cool | 14:54 |
| SergeyLukjanov | great | 14:54 |
| SergeyLukjanov | in which location are you hiring guys? | 14:54 |
| ttx | also if you happen to go to a given conference, include that as well, we may co-host | 14:54 |
| ttx | "location": syntax error | 14:54 |
| cody-somerville | That's a great point re: conference. | 14:54 |
| ttx | cody-somerville: yeah, my schedule is filling so fast co-location might not be a stupid option | 14:55 |
| cody-somerville | Is anyone else going to conferences early 2014? | 14:55 |
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| mordred | it's all I do with myself | 14:55 |
| ttx | I go to FOSDEM/Brussels. Might have a Foundation sprint in UT mid-January (ski!) | 14:56 |
| ttx | cody-somerville: i'll send you the requested info | 14:56 |
| * SergeyLukjanov have no plans for the first three months of 2014 atm | 14:56 | |
| cody-somerville | Thanks. | 14:56 |
| cody-somerville | My e-mail is cody.somerville@hp.com | 14:57 |
| cody-somerville | We're now three minutes to the hour. | 14:57 |
| cody-somerville | #topic Meeting Time | 14:57 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Meeting Time (Meeting topic: storyboard)" | 14:57 | |
| cody-somerville | How does this meeting time work for everyone? | 14:57 |
| cody-somerville | Should we change it or keep it the same? | 14:57 |
| ttx | perfect for me | 14:57 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ++ | 14:57 |
| ruhe | ++ | 14:57 |
| ttx | only issue is that it can't have #openstack-meeting* because both channels are booked | 14:57 |
| NikitaKonovalov | +1 to keep | 14:57 |
| ttx | so we could consider moving to Fridays | 14:58 |
| ttx | but then that would be on Fridays. | 14:58 |
| cody-somerville | It might be difficult for people on the west coast to attend at this time. | 14:58 |
| mordred | hrm. I'm tempted to say "life is hard" | 14:58 |
| mordred | and we make it hard for people in other timezones to attend openstack meetings all the time | 14:58 |
| ttx | cody-somerville: there will be no way to get California and deep Russia. | 14:58 |
| cody-somerville | My new team is going to hate me. They're all on the west coast. 6am meeting every Thursday. :) | 14:59 |
| ttx | maybe we'll have alternating meetings if you get west coast people on board | 14:59 |
| mordred | are there any times which are late-night US west that are morning for russia? | 14:59 |
| ttx | I'm fine with one or two hours later | 14:59 |
| cody-somerville | One or two hours later also works for me. | 15:00 |
| cody-somerville | Let's defer. | 15:00 |
| ttx | SergeyLukjanov, NikitaKonovalov: later means late for you right ? | 15:00 |
| mordred | ++ | 15:00 |
| cody-somerville | and keep current time. | 15:00 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, it's ok for me | 15:00 |
| mordred | this is fine for me - new employees at hp will just learn to love it | 15:00 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, project meeting is much later ;) | 15:00 |
| ttx | no kidding | 15:00 |
| cody-somerville | #topic Quick Last Minute Things | 15:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Quick Last Minute Things (Meeting topic: storyboard)" | 15:00 | |
| NikitaKonovalov | forrks for me | 15:00 |
| mordred | one last question | 15:00 |
| ttx | cody-somerville: we can set it to the next hour. that way we'll have a meeting channel | 15:00 |
| mordred | what url should we use? | 15:01 |
| NikitaKonovalov | forrks - > works | 15:01 |
| mordred | bugs.o.o ? stories.o.o? issues.o.o? or? | 15:01 |
| ttx | mordred: or storyboard.o.o | 15:01 |
| ttx | (too long ?) | 15:01 |
| cody-somerville | bugs.o.o for production instance | 15:01 |
| cody-somerville | storyboard.o.o for our instance? | 15:01 |
| SergeyLukjanov | ttx, mordred, +1 for stroyboard.o.o or sb.o.o | 15:01 |
| mordred | well, we use review.o.o for gerrit, not gerrit.o.o | 15:01 |
| ttx | cody-somerville: or stories.o.o ? | 15:01 |
| mordred | so that we have it named after function, rather than software implementation choice | 15:02 |
| ttx | "bugs" sounds a bit... reductive | 15:02 |
| ttx | tasks.o.o ? | 15:02 |
| NikitaKonovalov | I like stories.o.o it's much less depressing than bugs | 15:02 |
| mordred | yeah. I thnk I like stories the best | 15:02 |
| ruhe | i'd name this domain the same way this project is named - stroyboard.o.o | 15:02 |
| SergeyLukjanov | tasks sounds good, but stories is the better name | 15:02 |
| cody-somerville | what if marketing wants stories.o.o for something? | 15:03 |
| ttx | cody-somerville: don't we control dns ? | 15:03 |
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| ttx | heck, I have summit.o.o and then never coimplained. | 15:03 |
| cody-somerville | Right. | 15:04 |
| * SergeyLukjanov likes short aliases like sb.o.o :) | 15:04 | |
| mordred | cody-somerville: marketing can suck it | 15:04 |
| mordred | :) | 15:04 |
| mordred | openstack is a technical meritocracy, they work for us ... | 15:05 |
| cody-somerville | I'd suggest we have two domains though - one for our cd/ci instance (which -infra and other beta testers can be Guinea pig on) and then another for when we actually deploy this for realz. | 15:05 |
| mordred | also, I bet they'd want openstack.org/stories in any case (the less antagonistic answer) | 15:05 |
| SergeyLukjanov | mordred, are you sure that they know it? :) | 15:05 |
| mordred | SergeyLukjanov: I'm sure that they don't :) | 15:05 |
| cody-somerville | (as they should remain two separate instances) | 15:05 |
| mordred | cody-somerville: why? | 15:05 |
| mordred | cody-somerville: I expect our production instance to remain CD for its entire life | 15:06 |
| SergeyLukjanov | mordred, ++ | 15:06 |
| ttx | yeah, not convinced we need a separate domain for guinea pigs | 15:06 |
| ruhe | mordred, so the first step is to configure backups :) | 15:06 |
| mordred | ruhe: luckily, this is something we have in infra already :) | 15:06 |
| SergeyLukjanov | but we can always move our CD | 15:06 |
| ttx | we do backups now ? awesome | 15:07 |
| mordred | ttx: yes! we also use trove-based mysql | 15:07 |
| mordred | it's like we dogfood this cloud stuff | 15:07 |
| ttx | now I'm scared | 15:07 |
| cody-somerville | mordred: I suspect that for production we'll want it to be delayed a bit - little bit more conservative - not always running trunk. | 15:07 |
| mordred | hub_cap tells me it works | 15:07 |
| mordred | cody-somerville: I do not share that suspicion | 15:07 |
| SergeyLukjanov | heh, H/2 * * * * backup the world | 15:07 |
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| mordred | cody-somerville: we run most of the rest of infra directly off of git master branches | 15:08 |
| mordred | zuul and nodepool both run that way | 15:08 |
| cody-somerville | mordred: ie. around release time, storyboard dev shouldn't have to halt but we wouldn't want to risk disrupting openstack engineers. | 15:08 |
| ttx | cody-somerville: for the rest of infra we just soft freeze | 15:08 |
| ttx | hold on disruptive changes | 15:09 |
| mordred | yah. no dangerous changes - which means no patches written by monty | 15:09 |
| ttx | that's a good rule of thumb yes | 15:09 |
| SergeyLukjanov | cody-somerville, zuul/nodepool outage is the same risk | 15:09 |
| mordred | now - that said - we DO have the capability of spinning up a dev server and a feature branch | 15:09 |
| mordred | if we need to at that time | 15:09 |
| mordred | but I'd like to shoot for not needing that | 15:09 |
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| mordred | because if we do need it, it means we've done something else wrong | 15:09 |
| cody-somerville | the thing is, we're bound to do things wrong :) | 15:10 |
| cody-somerville | #endmeeting | 15:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:10 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Thu Nov 28 15:10:29 2013 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:10 |
| mordred | yup. | 15:10 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/storyboard/2013/storyboard.2013-11-28-14.19.html | 15:10 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/storyboard/2013/storyboard.2013-11-28-14.19.txt | 15:10 |
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| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/storyboard/2013/storyboard.2013-11-28-14.19.log.html | 15:10 |
| mordred | thanks everybody! | 15:10 |
| SergeyLukjanov | thank you guys | 15:10 |
| NikitaKonovalov | thanks | 15:11 |
| ttx | thx! great 1st meeting | 15:11 |
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