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| Swami | carl: hi | 14:59 |
|---|---|---|
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| carl_baldwin | Swami: hi | 15:00 |
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| Swami | Guest85648: hi | 15:00 |
| xuhanp | hi | 15:00 |
| Swami | xuhanp: hi | 15:00 |
| Swami | pcm: hi | 15:00 |
| Swami | mrsmith: hi | 15:01 |
| Swami | mrsmith: ping | 15:01 |
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| Swami | #startmeeting distributed-virtual-router | 15:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Apr 9 15:01:42 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is Swami. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 15:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 15:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: distributed-virtual-router)" | 15:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'distributed_virtual_router' | 15:01 |
| Swami | mrsmith:hi | 15:01 |
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| Swami | #topic Agenda | 15:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Agenda (Meeting topic: distributed-virtual-router)" | 15:02 | |
| Swami | 1. DVR Plugin extension update | 15:02 |
| Swami | 2. L2 Agent Update | 15:02 |
| Swami | 3. L3 Agent Update | 15:02 |
| Swami | 4. Open Discussion | 15:03 |
| Swami | #topic DVR Plugin extension update | 15:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "DVR Plugin extension update (Meeting topic: distributed-virtual-router)" | 15:03 | |
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| Swami | As you all may know the WIP code for the DVR extension is up for review. | 15:03 |
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| Swami | Thanks for the early review comments and I have address most of the comments. | 15:03 |
| Swami | The latest patch set if patch 5 | 15:04 |
| Swami | xunahp: I had an issue addressing one of your comments | 15:04 |
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| vivekn | hi | 15:04 |
| Swami | vivekn: hi | 15:05 |
| xuhanp | Swami, let me know how I can help :-) | 15:05 |
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| Swami | There was the "sqlalchemy Or_" that you mentioned in the review for the L3_db. | 15:05 |
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| Swami | For some reason it gives me an error. | 15:05 |
| Swami | I am not sure if there was any syntax errors. | 15:06 |
| xuhanp | Swami, yes. I saw your reply about it. maybe I need to download your code and experiment a little bit. | 15:06 |
| Swami | when I include the key "device_owner =yyyy". It says that device_owner is unrecognized. | 15:06 |
| xuhanp | ok. Let me try that this week and let you know? | 15:07 |
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| Swami | xuhanp: I will try to do some more investigation on that. In the meanwhile if you can give me a handle on that, it would be great. | 15:07 |
| xuhanp | Swami, sure thing. | 15:08 |
| Swami | There was on other topic related to the plugin that I wanted to discuss with the sub-team. | 15:08 |
| Swami | Is there a cleaner way of accessing the ml2 plugin based port binding information from the l3 Plugin. | 15:09 |
| Swami | If anyone have any ideas on this, just ping me. | 15:10 |
| vivekn | swami, | 15:10 |
| Swami | vivekn: yes | 15:10 |
| vivekn | you need port binding host_id information? | 15:10 |
| vivekn | for DVR interfaces? | 15:10 |
| Swami | vivekn:yes | 15:10 |
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| vivekn | host_id for dvr interfaces are now stored in an extension table different than port-binding | 15:11 |
| vivekn | that table is called ml2_dvr_port_binding | 15:11 |
| Swami | Is it still part of the ml2 db. | 15:11 |
| vivekn | it is still part of ml2 db only. Let me try to give a cleaner interface through python abstract classes so that you can access that table as well | 15:12 |
| Swami | vivekn: I can chat with you offline on this. | 15:12 |
| xuhanp | Swami and vivekn, will that limit the DVR to only support ML2 plugin? | 15:12 |
| vivekn | the original port-binding table will continue to hold only non-dvr interfaces (liek nova ports, centralized nn ports etc) | 15:12 |
| Swami | vivekn: thanks | 15:12 |
| vivekn | for now we have coded it that way | 15:12 |
| carl_baldwin | An interface would be good. Is it something that other plugins could implement down the road? | 15:12 |
| vivekn | when we post WIP code of L2 for review, we will go through this in more detail | 15:13 |
| Swami | vivekn: thanks | 15:13 |
| xuhanp | thanks | 15:13 |
| vivekn | in the current shape no | 15:13 |
| Swami | xuhanp: We are not trying to tie the DVR with the ML2, but there is a dependency on the OVS for the DVR. | 15:13 |
| vivekn | is same as the port-binding schema | 15:13 |
| vivekn | with status as an extra collumn | 15:14 |
| vivekn | correct swami | 15:14 |
| vivekn | ovs today works with ml2 plugin only | 15:14 |
| Swami | But any port addition and port deletion and the corresponding action to those ports are basically handled in the ML2. | 15:14 |
| Swami | These are basically to address the OVS rules in the Compute node bridges. | 15:14 |
| xuhanp | Swami, thanks for the information. | 15:15 |
| Swami | #topic L2 Agent | 15:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "L2 Agent (Meeting topic: distributed-virtual-router)" | 15:15 | |
| Swami | vivekn: Can you give us an update on the L2 Agent where you are right now. | 15:15 |
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| Swami | vivekn_: I think your connection is not so good. | 15:16 |
| vivekn_ | yes kinda logged out automatically | 15:17 |
| vivekn_ | figured out and rejoined :( | 15:17 |
| Swami | vivekn_: can you give an update on the L2 agent before you log off. | 15:17 |
| vivekn_ | currently | 15:17 |
| vivekn_ | pursuing addressing l2-pop to use | 15:17 |
| vivekn_ | extended ml2_dvr_port_bindings table | 15:17 |
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| vivekn_ | to decide whether vm is first on a network in an agent and also a vm is last on the network in a given l2 agent | 15:18 |
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| vivekn_ | also started working on gerrit work flow to post WIP code of L2 Agent/Plugin for review on 'master' | 15:18 |
| Swami | vivekn_: thanks for the info. | 15:19 |
| Swami | We are looking forward to see the L2 Agent code, so that we might get early feedback. | 15:19 |
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| Swami | vivekn_: can it be pushed in the next couple of days. | 15:19 |
| vivekn_ | yes , | 15:19 |
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| vivekn_ | but since travelling | 15:20 |
| Swami | vivekn_: Thanks, that's great. | 15:20 |
| vivekn_ | may take 4-5 days | 15:20 |
| Swami | vivekn_: ok, by next week then we should have it posted. | 15:20 |
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| Swami | vivekn_: hope this helps. | 15:20 |
| vivekn_ | yes | 15:21 |
| Swami | vivekn_: Thanks for your time. | 15:21 |
| Swami | #topic L3 Agent | 15:21 |
| vivekn_ | welcome | 15:21 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "L3 Agent (Meeting topic: distributed-virtual-router)" | 15:21 | |
| Swami | mrsmith: hi | 15:21 |
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| mrsmith | hi all | 15:21 |
| Swami | mrsmith: Any updates on the L3 Agent | 15:22 |
| mrsmith | FIP code changes are almost done | 15:22 |
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| mrsmith | but since upstream/icehouse has alot of FIP changes | 15:22 |
| mrsmith | the merge has been delayed | 15:22 |
| mrsmith | and therefore posting for review is delayed | 15:22 |
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| mrsmith | trying to resolve the merge ASAP | 15:23 |
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| Swami | mrsmith: got it. | 15:23 |
| mrsmith | yesterday I got the unit tests passing with DVR changes for l3_agent | 15:23 |
| mrsmith | on icehouse | 15:23 |
| mrsmith | good progress | 15:23 |
| Swami | mrsmith: Great!!! | 15:24 |
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| Swami | mrsmith: Thanks, please make sure that you push you code as quick as possible to upstream to get the early feedback. | 15:25 |
| mrsmith | understood | 15:25 |
| Swami | mrsmith: Thanks for the update | 15:25 |
| mrsmith | np | 15:25 |
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| Swami | #Open Discussions | 15:25 |
| Swami | Any open discussions | 15:26 |
| vivekn_ | yes | 15:26 |
| vivekn_ | i had a chance to read mails from Robert Kukura of l3-team | 15:26 |
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| Swami | #topic Open Discussions | 15:26 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussions (Meeting topic: distributed-virtual-router)" | 15:26 | |
| vivekn_ | for the external network multiple subnets blueprint | 15:26 |
| Swami | vivekn_: Kukura is part of the ml2 team | 15:26 |
| vivekn_ | recent changes have been made for multiple external networks in icehouse | 15:26 |
| vivekn_ | which might have impact on DVR | 15:26 |
| carl_baldwin | What is that blueprint called? | 15:27 |
| vivekn_ | all internet traffic now goes through br-int | 15:27 |
| vivekn_ | earlier it went throuh br-ex directly, but not anymore | 15:27 |
| mrsmith | that would impact DVR | 15:27 |
| vivekn_ | and br-ex has flows to strip_vlan (for egress) and insert_vlan(for ingress) packets to internet | 15:27 |
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| Swami | vivekn_: was that the blueprint implemented by Sylvain | 15:27 |
| vivekn_ | this is the direction of N-S movement from icehouse | 15:28 |
| vivekn_ | they want to eliminate br-ex being tied to ineternal routers | 15:28 |
| xuhanp | vivekn_, do you have the link of the blueprint or the link of the email? | 15:28 |
| vivekn_ | yes | 15:28 |
| vivekn_ | swami | 15:28 |
| vivekn_ | Sylvain fix for multiple external networks changed the paradigm | 15:28 |
| Swami | vivekn_: can you post the blueprint link | 15:28 |
| vivekn_ | of how N-S traffic is handled in incehouse | 15:28 |
| vivekn_ | i think i have the bug id , i will find blueprint and post it over email | 15:29 |
| xuhanp | vivekn_, thanks | 15:29 |
| Swami | vivekn_: I thought the blueprint that Sylvain posted was related to allowing the L3 agent to handle more than one external networks. | 15:30 |
| vivekn_ | here it is | 15:30 |
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| Swami | I was not sure that it touched the bridges. | 15:30 |
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| vivekn_ | one sec | 15:30 |
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| vivekn_ | couldn't find the right blueprint | 15:31 |
| Swami | carl: are you aware about this in Icehouse were br-ex is bypassed. | 15:31 |
| vivekn_ | https://bugs.launchpad.net/neutron/+bug/1303682 | 15:32 |
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| vivekn_ | please look at this bug for conversation by robert kukura on the paradigm change | 15:32 |
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| vivekn_ | Sylvain enhancement | 15:33 |
| vivekn_ | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/59359/ | 15:33 |
| vivekn_ | br-ex is not bypassed | 15:33 |
| vivekn_ | br-ex will talk to br-int | 15:33 |
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| vivekn_ | not to IRs anymore | 15:33 |
| vivekn_ | if you need a single external network then old method will continue to work | 15:33 |
| vivekn_ | but that will be for backward compatibility fro existing customers | 15:33 |
| carl_baldwin | Swami: I'm not aware. | 15:33 |
| vivekn_ | going forward support for external networks is via provider external networks | 15:34 |
| vivekn_ | please see Sylvain enhancement posted above for details | 15:34 |
| Swami | vivekn_: We might have to discuss this with Sylvain, he has already commented on the bug that vinod had proposed. | 15:34 |
| carl_baldwin | I've just opened the bug and review linked and will take a look. | 15:34 |
| vivekn_ | with a single l3_agent, you can host multiple external networks going forward | 15:34 |
| vivekn_ | earlier this was big limitation where you need one instance for l3_agent for every new external network | 15:35 |
| carl_baldwin | I did review the patch early on so my memory of it is beginning to come back. | 15:35 |
| Swami | vivekn_: Can you join the l3-subteam meeting tomorrow, sametime #openstack-meeting-3, and then we can discuss with Sylvain about this provider network scenario with multple external networks | 15:35 |
| vivekn_ | sure, i will try to join | 15:35 |
| Swami | vivekn_: thanks. | 15:36 |
| Swami | vivekn_: thanks for bringing up this point. | 15:36 |
| Swami | vivekn_: Can you also send a detailed mail to sylvain and copy me. | 15:36 |
| vivekn_ | i will forward the mail that was being discussed between vinod and | 15:37 |
| vivekn_ | robert | 15:37 |
| vivekn_ | to you , carl, mike and we can take it up from there | 15:37 |
| Swami | vivekn_: thanks vivek. | 15:37 |
| vivekn_ | robert's responses are not captured in teh review comments, but he mailed the intent | 15:37 |
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| vivekn_ | i think attending ml2 meetings would help both l2 and l3 people in DVR | 15:38 |
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| Swami | vivekn_: ml2 meeting is just after our meeting today in the same channel. If you are available can you join the meeting and have this discussion with the kukura and mystery. | 15:39 |
| vivekn_ | sure | 15:39 |
| Swami | I will also try to join the ml2 meeting, but may join a bit late. | 15:39 |
| Swami | vivekn_: Thanks | 15:40 |
| xuhanp | Swami, I have another question to bring up if you don't have other topics :-) | 15:40 |
| Swami | xuhanp: go ahead, I was about to ask you. | 15:40 |
| xuhanp | in current design, what happen after one distributed L3 agent on compute node fails? will the VM on that node still be able to talk to other node or external network? | 15:40 |
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| xuhanp | I mean the compute node is working fine but just the L3 agent fails for some reason. | 15:41 |
| mrsmith | it should get restarted - via /etc/init | 15:42 |
| mrsmith | but that is part of the interest in DVR - the impact of failure should be smaller | 15:42 |
| mrsmith | limited to a CN | 15:42 |
| Swami | mrsmith: but the vms that are already provisioned should still be able to communicate. | 15:42 |
| mrsmith | yes - but if the l3_agent fails and does not recover there may be a problem | 15:43 |
| mrsmith | but it should be better than the NN case | 15:43 |
| xuhanp | Swami, my question is exactly about how to do that? | 15:43 |
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| Swami | xuhanp: When an L3 agent fails, the current behaviour should be similar to the current centralized l3 agent behavior. | 15:44 |
| xuhanp | Swami, but we won't provide HA solution for the distributed L3 agent, right? | 15:45 |
| Swami | mrsmith: Is there any other option where when a L3 agent fails, the VMs can continue to pass traffic. | 15:45 |
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| mrsmith | are we assuming the auto re-start fails as well? | 15:45 |
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| Swami | xuhanp: The HA solution that is currently being proposed for L3 agent should still work, but there may be some difficulties which we have not thought about. | 15:46 |
| mrsmith | sure | 15:46 |
| xuhanp | mrsmith, you mean the auto restart with the help of monitor tool, right? | 15:46 |
| Swami | We may have to do some testing. Since we are using the same L3 agent for all the DVR work, L3 vrrp can be used. | 15:47 |
| mrsmith | the upstart linux functionality | 15:47 |
| mrsmith | for services | 15:47 |
| mrsmith | will monitor when a process dies - and auto restart | 15:47 |
| xuhanp | mrsmith, I see. | 15:47 |
| mrsmith | but if there is a bad bug - the l3_agent may continuously restart | 15:47 |
| mrsmith | the cloud admin may need to take manual steps | 15:48 |
| Swami | Any other questions. | 15:48 |
| xuhanp | also if there are many compute node, say 100, will there be too many l3 agents? | 15:48 |
| Swami | xuhanp: Each compute node will host a l3 agent. | 15:49 |
| Swami | xuhanp: This is minimum requirement. | 15:49 |
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| Swami | xuhanp: Hope it is clear now. | 15:49 |
| mrsmith | yes - each compute node will host a l3_agent | 15:49 |
| mrsmith | how many is "too many" ? | 15:50 |
| Swami | Ok, folks we are at the end of the hour. | 15:50 |
| Swami | See you all next week. | 15:50 |
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| Swami | Thanks everyone for joining the meeting. | 15:51 |
| xuhanp | Swami, ok. Thanks for the explanation. talk to you later | 15:51 |
| Swami | #endmeeting | 15:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 15:51 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Apr 9 15:51:06 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 15:51 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/distributed_virtual_router/2014/distributed_virtual_router.2014-04-09-15.01.html | 15:51 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/distributed_virtual_router/2014/distributed_virtual_router.2014-04-09-15.01.txt | 15:51 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/distributed_virtual_router/2014/distributed_virtual_router.2014-04-09-15.01.log.html | 15:51 |
| carl_baldwin | mrsmith: I don't think there is a too many. One agent per compute node, however many compute there are. | 15:51 |
| mrsmith | agreed | 15:51 |
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| carl_baldwin | mrsmith: There may be some some scaling issues to work out but I don't think there is an alternative to working them out. | 15:53 |
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| mestery | hi | 15:59 |
| rcurran | hi | 15:59 |
| rkukura | hi | 16:00 |
| banix | hi there | 16:00 |
| asadoughi | hi | 16:00 |
| mestery | #startmeeting networking_ml2 | 16:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Apr 9 16:00:08 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mestery. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 16:00 |
| kevinbenton | hi | 16:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 16:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: networking_ml2)" | 16:00 | |
| otherwiseguy | hi | 16:00 |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'networking_ml2' | 16:00 |
| mestery | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/ML2#Meeting_April_9.2C_2014 Agenda | 16:00 |
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| mestery | rcurran: Is asomya around? I emailed him about presenting his TypeDriver work but got no response. | 16:01 |
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| rcurran | no. family issue. | 16:01 |
| mestery | rcuraan: OK, got it, thanks. | 16:01 |
| mestery | So, I'd like to spend some time on Juno Design Summit items today, but first I'd like asadoughi to spend some time on his OVS firewall driver | 16:01 |
| mestery | #topic OVS Firewall Driver Update | 16:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OVS Firewall Driver Update (Meeting topic: networking_ml2)" | 16:01 | |
| Sukhdev | hi | 16:01 |
| mestery | asadoughi: hi | 16:02 |
| asadoughi | hi | 16:02 |
| asadoughi | yes, so re-opened the bp and targeted for juno-1 now that ovs 2.1.0 is available and juno is open for development | 16:02 |
| asadoughi | short term goal is to restore all 4 existing patches over the next week | 16:02 |
| mestery | asadoughi: Great! I've seen those reviews become active lately. | 16:03 |
| asadoughi | long term goal is to have working stateless implementation uploaded to gerrit by summit, (5 weeks) | 16:03 |
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| banix | asadoughi: long term == 5 weeks :) | 16:03 |
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| asadoughi | i had some off-list discussions with vthapar; vthapar will be looking into reflexive learning (stateful) now that ovs data path flow limit is over 200K flows; ultimately, thinking about providing a parallel implementation so the user can decide which driver style will meet their performance constraints (statless vs stateful) | 16:04 |
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| asadoughi | that is all. questions? | 16:04 |
| mestery | asadoughi: Very cool! | 16:04 |
| mestery | asadoughi: Do you happen to have the BP link handy? | 16:04 |
| asadoughi | blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/ovs-firewall-driver | 16:04 |
| mestery | #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/ovs-firewall-driver OVS Firewall Driver BP | 16:05 |
| mestery | So do you think you'll have both stateless and stateful firewall support ready in 5 weeks? | 16:05 |
| asadoughi | i doubt it | 16:06 |
| mestery | :) | 16:06 |
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| mestery | I recall your email thread on ovs-discuss, and Justin indicated they were integrating linux connection tracking. Any update on that by chance? | 16:07 |
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| asadoughi | no update on that front | 16:07 |
| mestery | OK. | 16:07 |
| asadoughi | vthapar: you just missed my mention of our previous discussion | 16:07 |
| mestery | Any other questions for asadoughi around this? | 16:07 |
| asadoughi | i'll send another email on the ovs list | 16:08 |
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| vthapar | I hope to get some results of flow testing with OVS2.1 by next week. | 16:09 |
| mestery | vthapar: Cool! | 16:09 |
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| mestery | asadoughi: Thanks for the update! | 16:09 |
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| mestery | #topic Juno Design Summit | 16:09 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Juno Design Summit (Meeting topic: networking_ml2)" | 16:09 | |
| mestery | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/juno_ml2_session_ideas Juno Design Summit Etherpad | 16:09 |
| mestery | I created the above etherpad to track ML2 ideas for the Summit | 16:09 |
| mestery | I see people have been adding ideas there, thanks! | 16:09 |
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| mestery | banix: I just noticed your idea at the bottom (base mechanism driver for controllers) | 16:10 |
| mestery | To be honest, I think that may make sense. | 16:10 |
| mestery | The Tail-F driver and the ODL driver are somewhat similar for example. | 16:11 |
| nlahouti | I also added ML2 MD support for extensions | 16:11 |
| banix | mestery: ok; how do we go about doing this or discussing more? | 16:11 |
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| mestery | banix: I would file a Summit Session for this and we can work it into the agenda. | 16:12 |
| banix | mestery: sounds good. thanks. | 16:12 |
| mestery | nlahouti: Thanks for that! I think that is something we've toyed with for a while now, so trying to resolve that will be good. | 16:12 |
| rkukura | I listed some ideas I’ve been thinking about for a while | 16:13 |
| nlahouti | mestery: I added more details of changes in summit session link | 16:13 |
| mestery | nlahouti: Thanks! | 16:14 |
| mestery | rkukura: Thanks for adding all of your info there as well. | 16:14 |
| rkukura | I suspect some of the ones I listed overlap with others | 16:14 |
| nlahouti | Also we need some changes related to VDP support in OVS and if it is okay can we discuss it here ? | 16:14 |
| mestery | rkukura: Does it make sense to try to merge some ML2 items into a "super-session" again like we did in Hong Kong, giving people 10-15 minutes each? | 16:14 |
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| banix | nlahouti, mestery: Yeah I think we have to add this support sooner or later | 16:15 |
| Sukhdev | I like some of the ideas and have interest in them - do folks have worked out any details on these? | 16:15 |
| rkukura | mestery: I think so | 16:15 |
| mestery | nlahouti: OVS changes are not in the domain of OpenStack. Do you mean actually changes to OVS itself? | 16:15 |
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| rkukura | We don’t need entire sessions for ideas that are already well understood | 16:15 |
| mestery | rkukura: Agreed. | 16:15 |
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| nlahouti | mestery: I meant OVS neutron agent | 16:15 |
| mestery | We should converge on what Juno items we want to work on and try to get them staffed with people by the Summit or soon after. | 16:15 |
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| mestery | nlahouti: OK, then that is applicable here. Is that added to your BP yet? Or do you want to give us a quick summary here? | 16:16 |
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| nlahouti | mestery: it is added to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/netron-ml2-mechnism-driver-for-cisco-dfa-support | 16:17 |
| mestery | nlahouti: OK, thanks! | 16:18 |
| rkukura | nlahouti: Does DFA overlap with my “dynamic VLAN segment type for ToR switch” idea? | 16:18 |
| padkrish | mestery: even though it's added under cisco-dfa mechanism driver, it can be used in general for anyone needing VDP support | 16:18 |
| rkukura | what does VDP expand to? | 16:18 |
| mestery | padkrish: It may make sense to split that out into it's own BP so it can be merged separately then. | 16:18 |
| nlahouti | rkukura: I haven't read it yet It could be. | 16:19 |
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| padkrish | rkukura: It stands for VSI discovery protocol and it's a part of QBG IEEE standard | 16:19 |
| Sukhdev | rkukura, nlahouti: It does have similarities - | 16:19 |
| padkrish | mestery: Ok | 16:19 |
| mestery | Agreed on the similarities | 16:20 |
| nlahouti | sukhdev: is there any BP for that? | 16:20 |
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| Sukhdev | nlahouti: you should look into asoumya work as well - there is similarity there as well | 16:20 |
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| Sukhdev | nlahouti: yes there is mestery provided link in last meeting - do not have handy now, but, can look | 16:21 |
| padkrish | sukhdev: Yes, we discussed with asomya, from what i understood from him, it's different | 16:21 |
| mestery | rkukura: I think the "dynamic VLAN segment type for ToR switch" idea is going to be something we should do early in Juno, as it will help a lot of these things out. | 16:21 |
| Sukhdev | mestery: +1 | 16:22 |
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| banix | Sukhdev: nlahouti: #link https://blueprints.launchpad.net/neutron/+spec/ml2-type-driver-refactor | 16:22 |
| mestery | Thanks banix! | 16:23 |
| nlahouti | banix: thx for the link | 16:23 |
| rkukura | mestety: I could writeup a succint BP for it, but if something more aligned with QBG is needed, someone else may want to do it, or help | 16:23 |
| Sukhdev | padkrish: In that case, perhaps you can highlight the differences ---- all of us do not want to be comming up with diffentent implementations of similar ideas | 16:23 |
| nlahouti | we will look into it | 16:23 |
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| padkrish | sukhdev: Yes, i remember looking at this one. Here, they separate the segment allocation to the type driver | 16:24 |
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| padkrish | #sukhdev, mestery: In VDP, it's a protocol which sends the vNIC information to the ToR and the ToR sends the VLAN to be used for that VM. | 16:24 |
| nlahouti | if there are differences should we have new BP and also wirte up for the desing summint sessison? | 16:25 |
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| padkrish | #sukhdev: VDP protocol runs in each of the compute nodes. | 16:25 |
| mestery | It seems there is some overlap here for sure, we need to figure out how to ensure we make something extensible for all the use cases. | 16:25 |
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| rkukura | sounds like we may want a simple framework for this in ML2, where the openvswitch agent MD can use the dynamically assigned VLAN, but a separate driver of some work (maybe the type driver) allocates the VLAN, and this can have a simple neutron-DB-based implementation and one that uses the VDP standard. | 16:27 |
| padkrish | mestery: The work by Arvind has this segment allocation pushed to type drivers. What i see is Type drivers run only in the controller. | 16:27 |
| Sukhdev | mestery: I think I like rkukura's idea of putting together some generic VLAN solution (with some extensions) to cover most of these use cases | 16:27 |
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| mestery | padkrish: The similarities with what asomya is doing and VDP is that VLANs are per "host to ToR", if we can make that work we'll be good I think. | 16:28 |
| banix | Sukhdev: makes sense | 16:28 |
| Sukhdev | mestery: correct analysis | 16:28 |
| rkukura | This definitely is sounding like a good session topic where there are a number of efforts or use cases that require similar support in ML2 | 16:28 |
| mestery | Agreed rkukura, I think we should definitely have a session on this. | 16:29 |
| rkukura | But I think asomya’s BP covers a more specific topic, so should be a separate session | 16:29 |
| padkrish | mestery: Yes, that part is same. But, my understanding of asomya's work is, it's like top-down assignment where controller knows the assignment. VDP is more like bottom-up where compute nodes query the TOR for VLAN | 16:29 |
| Sukhdev | rkukura: I have very strong interest in this as well | 16:29 |
| mestery | Who wants to file this one? | 16:29 |
| mestery | I can certainly do it. | 16:30 |
| rkukura | I’ll file one that’s very generic about dynamic VLAN allocation. Others can do more specific proposals, and we can combine | 16:30 |
| mestery | +1 to that rkukura | 16:31 |
| Sukhdev | padkrish: my understanding of asoumya work is that it is a late binding model - hence, I wanted him to present, so that we can all understand | 16:31 |
| padkrish | rkukura, mestery: Sure, i can give my inputs on the VDP side | 16:31 |
| padkrish | Sukhdev: Sure | 16:31 |
| Sukhdev | + to rkukura as well | 16:31 |
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| Sukhdev | rkukura; if you like I can help you with that | 16:32 |
| rkukura | can we get asomya next on the agenda next week? | 16:32 |
| mestery | rkukura: Yes, I'll work to make sure asomya is here. | 16:33 |
| padkrish | rkukura: Sure, and then we can compare with VDP and its similarities and differences | 16:34 |
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| mestery | OK. any other Juno Summit ideas to discuss here? | 16:34 |
| Sukhdev | mestery: we need to short list the ideas soon | 16:35 |
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| mestery | Sukhdev: Yes, as the filing deadline is April 20th. | 16:35 |
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| rkukura | anyone interested in putting together a session on bulk ops? | 16:36 |
| rkukura | Or on modulat agent? | 16:36 |
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| Sukhdev | mestery: leaving the Dynamic VLAN idea, we can go through the reaminging list and see what makes sense | 16:36 |
| rkukura | modular | 16:36 |
| rkukura | or on ML2 testing? | 16:36 |
| mestery | rkukura: modular agent has been around for a bit, that's a good one if someone is interested! | 16:36 |
| rkukura | someone would need to put some thought into the design and plan | 16:37 |
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| Sukhdev | rkukura, mestery: need to understand a bit better as to what you are looking for - then I can see if I can spare some cycles (or join hands with someone) | 16:38 |
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| mestery | rkukura: Agreed, but with no less than 3 agents now (OVS, LB and OFAgent), it may make sense to collapse them. | 16:38 |
| mestery | Sukhdev: We're talking about merging all 3 of the agents I mentioned ^^^ | 16:38 |
| irenab | there is also MellanoxAgent quite similar to others | 16:39 |
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| rkukura | beyond what mesteery just mentioned, drivers within in the agents for things like firewalls or QoS use some generic hooks | 16:39 |
| irenab | I'll check if I can join hands on this topic | 16:40 |
| mestery | irenab: Thanks, I forgot about that one! | 16:41 |
| rkukura | irenab: right, support for specific SR-IOV cards, various kinds of offloading, etc., might be able to take advantage | 16:41 |
| irenab | I also added point to the etherpad on flexible device naming, not tapXXX | 16:41 |
| irenab | would be required by SR-IOV HW Switch agent | 16:42 |
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| mestery | OK, so it sounds like a modular agent is also a possible topic for Atlanta. | 16:43 |
| mestery | There's enough interest here. | 16:43 |
| Sukhdev | mestery: three topics and counting :-) | 16:43 |
| rkukura | just need a driver for that one | 16:44 |
| mestery | Sukhdev: :) | 16:44 |
| mestery | rkukura: Agreed. Does anyone want to volunteer to drive the modular agent work? It will involve a fair amount of people since it touches 4 agents. | 16:44 |
| mestery | If anyone wants to take that one, please reach out to me or rkukura. | 16:45 |
| mestery | #topic Open Discussion | 16:45 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: networking_ml2)" | 16:45 | |
| kevinbenton | https://review.openstack.org/#/c/85592/ | 16:45 |
| mestery | Anything else this week or should we end a bit early? | 16:45 |
| kevinbenton | how should i handle this error case | 16:45 |
| kevinbenton | segment in DB with no network type driver | 16:45 |
| mestery | kevinbenton: That's a good question. This is an end case issue. Did you see enikanorov's comments in the review? | 16:47 |
| kevinbenton | yes, it scanning the whole db on startup an acceptable approach? | 16:47 |
| kevinbenton | is* | 16:48 |
| rkukura | kevinbenton: Maybe the delete should succeed, but the error logged. | 16:48 |
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| mestery | +1 to that rkukura | 16:48 |
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| rkukura | If the type driver doesn’t exist, reclaiming resources isn’t possible, but a DB admin could do that | 16:48 |
| kevinbenton | rkukura: that’s what i was starting to think. if the network_type is gone it sort of implies that there is nothing to clean up | 16:48 |
| rkukura | kevinbenton: right | 16:49 |
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| kevinbenton | rkukura: so i’ll just log an error and return | 16:49 |
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| mestery | OK, thanks everyone for attending this week! | 16:51 |
| mestery | We'll see you all next week, same time and channel. | 16:51 |
| banix | bye | 16:51 |
| mestery | Keep those Summit ideas flowing! | 16:51 |
| mestery | #endmeeting | 16:51 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 16:51 | |
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| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Apr 9 16:51:28 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 16:51 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_ml2/2014/networking_ml2.2014-04-09-16.00.html | 16:51 |
| rkukura | bye | 16:51 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_ml2/2014/networking_ml2.2014-04-09-16.00.txt | 16:51 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/networking_ml2/2014/networking_ml2.2014-04-09-16.00.log.html | 16:51 |
| padkrish | bye | 16:51 |
| nlahouti | bye | 16:51 |
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| vinod | #startmeeting Designate | 17:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Apr 9 17:00:24 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is vinod. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 17:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 17:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: Designate)" | 17:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'designate' | 17:00 |
| vinod | who's here? | 17:00 |
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| kiall | Heya | 17:00 |
| mugsie | o/ | 17:01 |
| eankutse | her | 17:01 |
| eankutse | here | 17:01 |
| tsimmons | o/ | 17:01 |
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| vinod | #topic Review action items from last week | 17:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Review action items from last week (Meeting topic: Designate)" | 17:01 | |
| richm | here | 17:01 |
| vinod | Both the action items were to add agenda action items. They were done | 17:01 |
| kiall | 2x actions for me - Both to put stuff on agenda for today. Done | 17:01 |
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| vinod | #topic Workshop Meetup - 17:00 UTC via Hangout | 17:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Workshop Meetup - 17:00 UTC via Hangout (Meeting topic: Designate)" | 17:02 | |
| kiall | BTW - Myself and mugsie will have to leave this meeting a little early | 17:02 |
| vinod | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/DesignateAtalantaWorkshop | 17:02 |
| vinod | Mugsie what day would the hangout be? | 17:02 |
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| mugsie | on monday | 17:03 |
| mugsie | next week | 17:03 |
| mugsie | I just added it there ;) | 17:03 |
| kiall | 14th? | 17:03 |
| mugsie | yup | 17:03 |
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| mugsie | was a brain fart on my side | 17:03 |
| mugsie | rjrjr_: do you want to stay on after that and talk about our talk? | 17:03 |
| rjrjr_ | yes. | 17:04 |
| rjrjr_ | what time monday? | 17:04 |
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| mugsie | 17:00 UTC -> 18:00 UTC | 17:04 |
| mugsie | then 18:00 on wards for us | 17:04 |
| vinod | so about an hour earlier than now | 17:04 |
| mugsie | no, this time actually | 17:04 |
| kiall | really? It's 17:00 UTC right now? | 17:05 |
| mugsie | we are UTC +1 at the moment | 17:05 |
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| ekarlso | yo | 17:05 |
| eankutse | that works for me | 17:05 |
| rjrjr_ | where do i find the information about the hangout meetup? | 17:05 |
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| mugsie | i will send it on after this meeting | 17:06 |
| kiall | Cool :) Graham has everyones's google acct details.. So we'll let him organize the hangout. | 17:06 |
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| kiall | #action mugsie to Send out invite etc for Hangout on Mon 14th @ 17:00 UTC | 17:06 |
| kiall | rjrjr_: no details other than "Workshop planning" and https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/DesignateAtalantaWorkshop | 17:07 |
| rjrjr_ | okay | 17:07 |
| vinod | anything more on the workshop before we move to the next item? | 17:07 |
| vinod | #topic RRSets APIs - Decision time | 17:07 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "RRSets APIs - Decision time (Meeting topic: Designate)" | 17:07 | |
| kiall | Not from me.. | 17:07 |
| kiall | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Designate/Blueprints/RecordSets | 17:07 |
| kiall | Okay - So, I added a Proposal #4 (and re-titled the existing proposals) | 17:07 |
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| kiall | Can everyone take 5 mins or so to re-read them? | 17:08 |
| vinod | doing now | 17:08 |
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| vinod | so proposal 4 is essentially the same as what we had before as the design - correct? | 17:10 |
| eankutse | Kiall: how different is this from the one proposed last week? | 17:10 |
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| kiall | vinod / eankutse Proposal 3 and 4 are quite similar, but each proposes a different resource is kept | 17:11 |
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| kiall | Proposal 4 looks very similar to the original V2 spec (i.e. not what got implemented in the end..) | 17:11 |
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| rjrjr_ | were there problems in implementation? | 17:12 |
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| vinod | with proposal 4 - can we also have a PUT which would be completely replace the existing with the new | 17:12 |
| kiall | eankutse: So, there was 3 proposals last week, the first 3 on that page are the same as last week, just with a new heading for easier referencing :) Proposal 4 is new since last week, but it what I suggested last week | 17:12 |
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| vinod | the reasoning being that if we have more changes than the modify could be pretty ugly | 17:13 |
| eankutse | k | 17:13 |
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| mugsie | vinod: the PATCH would replace the entire resource | 17:14 |
| kiall | all updates in P4 replace the set, with JSONPatch offering support to mutate the set in place where needed | 17:14 |
| mugsie | and the to add, you would use JSON+Patch | 17:14 |
| mugsie | ah, kiall just said it | 17:14 |
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| kiall | rjrjr_: yes, there was implementation difficulties - But, we're in a better spot to address those now than we were | 17:14 |
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| kiall | Now that backend operations are performed within a TX, we can add a new "replace_records" or similar method that replaces the set as a whole in 1 go, in 1 TX | 17:15 |
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| vinod | from an implementation perspective, kiall were you thinking about having a table for recordsets and another for records similar to now | 17:16 |
| kiall | Anyone still reading BTW? | 17:16 |
| rjrjr_ | still here. | 17:16 |
| richm | yes | 17:16 |
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| richm | What data is associated with a recordset, other than ttl? | 17:16 |
| kiall | richm: name, type, TTL | 17:16 |
| kiall | potentially more if/when we add more advanced features | 17:17 |
| richm | of those, what is allowed to be changed? | 17:17 |
| kiall | for example - GeoIP - RRSet #1 for EU queries, RRSet #2 US | 17:17 |
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| richm | ok | 17:17 |
| kiall | richm: ttl, and we could allow name to change.. we just don't currently | 17:17 |
| kiall | vinod: re the tables - I think this BP happens regardless https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Designate/Blueprints/Records_Table_Redesign | 17:18 |
| kiall | i.e. no matter what is chosen here, records gets split | 17:18 |
| rjrjr_ | so, some of the "difficulties" in the code is around creating recordset then record, etc.? (i also see a bug was found where recordsets are not deleted with records.) will this help with that? can some of the central code be simplified? | 17:18 |
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| kiall | rjrjr_: yes, all the central code for records goes away - RecordSets would be the only thing it knows about with P4 | 17:19 |
| kiall | So, the DB layer would, inside a TX, create the RRSet entry, then the Nx RR entries .. Should one fail, it aborts the TX and keeps things clean | 17:20 |
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| kiall | Anyone still reading BTW? | 17:20 |
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| vinod | i assume you mean reading the proposals - no i am done | 17:21 |
| rjrjr_ | okay, my objects last week are being retracted. 8^) this looks better. | 17:21 |
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| rjrjr_ | objects = objections | 17:21 |
| kiall | vinod: Yea, I mean reading the proposals :) | 17:21 |
| vinod | decision time or any more questions still lingering in people's minds? | 17:21 |
| kiall | So .. Say everyone is done reading.. Let's go thought them one by one? | 17:22 |
| richm | ok | 17:22 |
| kiall | ==== Proposal 1 | 17:22 |
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| kiall | Anyone have any pros/cons for P1? | 17:22 |
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| kiall | Personally, I dislike the "?modify-rrset" query string, and that without that, a update TTL on a 1 vs 2+ record RRSet behaves differently. | 17:23 |
| richm | For those folks who actually have to administer DNS - is the concept of managing recordsets separately from records a natual one? So would it be natural to want to modify the ttl (or other attributes) of a recordset separately from records? | 17:23 |
| richm | natural | 17:24 |
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| rjrjr_ | in BIND, they just manage records. recordsets are "background". | 17:24 |
| richm | I also dislike the ?modify-rrset | 17:24 |
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| vinod | Pros - Would be that the users deal with records and not recordsets | 17:25 |
| kiall | rjrjr_: yea, in BIND (and many DNS servers) RRSets are hidden away - But, if your managing a DNS server and don't understand them - chances are your zonefiles are invalid, and BIND is silently serving something different than what you told it to | 17:25 |
| richm | rjrjr_: in BIND, how do you change the ttl in a recordset? | 17:25 |
| vinod | Cons - Modifying the recordset is clumsy | 17:25 |
| kiall | vinod: Yep - Agreed on both your Pros/Cons | 17:26 |
| rjrjr_ | you change the TTL for all the records. lowest TTL wins! | 17:26 |
| richm | egads | 17:26 |
| rjrjr_ | you asked. 8^) | 17:26 |
| richm | that seems . . . sub-optimal | 17:26 |
| kiall | rjrjr_: So, to me, that's not right. Since when i fetch a record via the API, and see ttl=300 | 17:26 |
| kiall | then do a DNS query and see ttl=60 | 17:26 |
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| kiall | something is wrong ;) | 17:26 |
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| kiall | Any other thoughts on P1? Anyone disagree with anything said ^? | 17:27 |
| vinod | No | 17:28 |
| kiall | Okay .. Moving on ;) | 17:28 |
| kiall | ==== Proposal 2 | 17:28 |
| vinod | This essentially seeks to mimic BIND's behavior | 17:29 |
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| kiall | My last comment from above is really related to this one, as P1 enforces the TTLs are the same, while P2 proposes to use lowest TTL wins behaviour similar to BIND | 17:29 |
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| kiall | Anyone have pro/con's for P2? | 17:30 |
| rjrjr_ | pro: it's what most administrators of BIND expect. | 17:30 |
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| vinod | cons: dns behavior might not be consistent with what api shows | 17:31 |
| kiall | rjrjr_: Can't argue with that :) But, for me, the average Designate end-user isn't a DNS admin | 17:31 |
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| kiall | Designate should be taking half the DNS admin's job (updating zonefiles), and delegating that to the user who would have been submitting a ticket for that change .. | 17:32 |
| richm | fits with the way IPA works too - if you change the ttl of a record, it actually changes the ttl of the recordset | 17:32 |
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| kiall | so - IPA doesn't expose RRSets in it's APIs, but internally enforces consistency? | 17:33 |
| mugsie | I would say keeping the API data cnsistant with the end result is requirement | 17:33 |
| richm | kiall: right | 17:33 |
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| kiall | richm: so, how would we enforce lowest TTL wins with IPA? | 17:34 |
| kiall | It sounds like with IPA, latest TTL wins? | 17:34 |
| richm | right | 17:34 |
| richm | enforcing lowest ttl wins would be more difficult | 17:34 |
| richm | will have to see if ipa can enforce that on the server side | 17:35 |
| vinod | so essentially modifying one record's ttl could modify some other records ttls too | 17:35 |
| richm | right | 17:35 |
| kiall | New con: We can't easily implement this is a way that is consistent cross different DNS servers | 17:35 |
| rjrjr_ | Proposal 5 - Handle TTLs Implicitly - latest TTL wins. 8^) | 17:35 |
| kiall | rjrjr_: lol | 17:35 |
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| kiall | Okay .. So, moving on? | 17:36 |
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| kiall | Or anything else before we do? | 17:36 |
| richm | no | 17:36 |
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| vinod | ==== Proposal 3 | 17:37 |
| kiall | Okay | 17:37 |
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| vinod | this is mostly similar to proposal 4 except for the terminology and modify | 17:38 |
| kiall | So .. I can't come up with much in the way of cons for this one to be honest. Essentially, it's RecordSets being called Records, and update being a little different | 17:38 |
| vinod | Cons: We talk about recordsets without calling them recordsets - could be more confusing | 17:39 |
| mugsie | +1 | 17:39 |
| rjrjr_ | i like proposal 4 API better ("record" instead of "data", etc.) | 17:39 |
| richm | how does this correspond with how other DNS servers (other than BIND) are managed? | 17:39 |
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| mugsie | also, not sure i like the PUT vs PATCH works either | 17:39 |
| kiall | richm: RecordSets can be mapped onto any DNS (they have to be!). But, with some DNS servers, we'll have to "explode" the RRSet in a list of Records | 17:40 |
| kiall | But - Zonetransfers with mDNS should make that just work | 17:40 |
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| kiall | rjrjr_: I think the "records" vs "data" etc is not really important, it's the concept we're aiming to agree on :) | 17:41 |
| kiall | (not important *right now* ;)) | 17:41 |
| richm | I mean - it sounds like this proposal may be difficult for BIND admins to grok - but what about pdns, nsd, etc.? | 17:41 |
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| rjrjr_ | i don't think it is difficult, just different. | 17:41 |
| richm | It seems more natural to me, and aligns better with the DNS specs | 17:42 |
| kiall | P3 and P4 are both likely to cause a double take for DNS admins.. But, DNS Admins are likely not our primary audience | 17:42 |
| kiall | Any other pros/cons on this one? | 17:44 |
| richm | about PATCH - is it supported everywhere? | 17:44 |
| kiall | Yea, it certainly should be | 17:44 |
| kiall | The bad old days of GET/POST being the only things that worked are gone thanks to APIs :) | 17:45 |
| kiall | (We also use PATCH elsewhere in the v2 API, as do several other OS APIs) | 17:45 |
| richm | ok | 17:45 |
| richm | Then it looks like the usage of PUT vs. PATCH is as intended by the HTTP docs | 17:46 |
| kiall | So - No other comments/pros/cons on P3? | 17:46 |
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| rjrjr_ | vote? | 17:46 |
| kiall | richm: Kinda, PUT is applying PUT's semantics onto a single element within the payload.. But, it's closer than most APIs get to doing it right ;) | 17:46 |
| kiall | ==== Proposal 4 | 17:47 |
| richm | well, let's just say it makes sense in this context | 17:47 |
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| kiall | Okay - Cons.. We use the word "RecordSets" - this can be scary | 17:47 |
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| kiall | Who has pros/cons on this one? | 17:47 |
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| kiall | Pros: Maps to the DNS specs - So will fit on any DNS server while keeping data in the API, and in DNS consistent | 17:48 |
| mugsie | I prefer the idea of JSON+PATCH - it shows a good flow of what the modifications are | 17:48 |
| vinod | Cons: New concept recordsets. If we want to add just one record (how many % of the users?) we need to think in terms of recordsets | 17:48 |
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| vinod | Cons: The zone file does not have recordsets - just records. But the api has recordsets and not records | 17:49 |
| eankutse | Con: doing away with the concept of Record | 17:49 |
| mugsie | true, but for most of the users who will have issues, they will be using a CLI / horizon panel | 17:49 |
| kiall | vinod: if your just adding 1 record, then it's a s/record/recordset/ and it should be pretty similar | 17:49 |
| eankutse | now Record is RecordSet with one member - a little heavy-duty | 17:49 |
| mugsie | eankutse: the concept of record is there, but as a paylod in a recordset | 17:49 |
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| kiall | vinod: BIND zone files do have RRSets, implicitly. | 17:50 |
| mugsie | yeah, it is the same info that we would be providing if it was called a record.. and it does align with the RFCs. | 17:50 |
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| kiall | Pro AND Con: This is the same data model as AWS's Route53. As i said.. Pro AND Con ;) | 17:51 |
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| vinod | kiall/mugsie: how are you on time? do you want to start a vote? | 17:51 |
| kiall | eankutse: also, most users will be using JClouds, Python bindings, Web Console.. | 17:51 |
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| kiall | vinod: Does everyone have a clear #1 in mind? | 17:52 |
| richm | kiall: interesting - do you have a url for the route53 docs? | 17:52 |
| kiall | We're fine on time | 17:52 |
| kiall | (dont need to leave anymore) | 17:52 |
| kiall | richm: http://awsdocs.s3.amazonaws.com/Route53/20130401/route53-api-20130401.pdf | 17:52 |
| kiall | RRSet = Resource Record Set BTW, they call them that | 17:53 |
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| kiall | http://pastie.org/9057085 - example | 17:54 |
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| richm | ok - thanks | 17:54 |
| kiall | Okay. 5 mins left.. Is anyone ready to vote? Say Yes or No please :) | 17:55 |
| richm | Yes | 17:55 |
| rjrjr_ | yes | 17:55 |
| mugsie | yes | 17:55 |
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| kiall | Yes | 17:55 |
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| vinod | yes | 17:55 |
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| eankutse | yes | 17:55 |
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| kiall | Ok... | 17:55 |
| kiall | #startvote Which RecordSet proposal? P1, P2, P3, P4 | 17:56 |
| openstack | Only the meeting chair may start a vote. | 17:56 |
| kiall | grr.. vinod :) | 17:56 |
| vinod | irc://morgan.freenode.net:6667/#startvote Which RecordSet proposal? P1, P2, P3, P4 | 17:56 |
| rjrjr_ | P4 | 17:56 |
| kiall | lol .. that prefix isn't right ;) Try again? | 17:56 |
| eankutse | P4 with slight reservation | 17:56 |
| vinod | #startvote Which RecordSet proposal? P1, P2, P3, P4 | 17:56 |
| openstack | Begin voting on: Which RecordSet proposal? Valid vote options are P1, P2, P3, P4. | 17:56 |
| openstack | Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts. | 17:56 |
| kiall | Okay | 17:56 |
| mugsie | #vote P4 | 17:56 |
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| kiall | #vote P4 | 17:56 |
| vinod | #vote P4 | 17:56 |
| rjrjr_ | #vote P4 | 17:56 |
| eankutse | #vote P4 with slight reservation | 17:57 |
| openstack | eankutse: P4 with slight reservation is not a valid option. Valid options are P1, P2, P3, P4. | 17:57 |
| rjrjr_ | lol | 17:57 |
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| mugsie | :D | 17:57 |
| kiall | eankutse: the bot told you odd ;) | 17:57 |
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| kiall | #showvote | 17:57 |
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| openstack | P4 (4): mugsie, rjrjr_, kiall, vinod | 17:57 |
| eankutse | #vote P4 | 17:58 |
| kiall | So .. eankutse / richm let? | 17:58 |
| kiall | left* | 17:58 |
| richm | #vote P4 | 17:58 |
| rjrjr_ | that's everyone. | 17:58 |
| vinod | kiall is there an endvote? | 17:58 |
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| kiall | Yep #endvote | 17:58 |
| vinod | #endvote | 17:58 |
| openstack | Voted on "Which RecordSet proposal?" Results are | 17:58 |
| openstack | P4 (6): eankutse, vinod, rjrjr_, mugsie, kiall, richm | 17:58 |
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| kiall | That's not what I expected :) I was thinking people were leaning towards P3! | 17:59 |
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| vinod | you were convincing kiall :-) | 17:59 |
| kiall | #action kiall to put Mini-DNS: Can we rename it to something less provoking, like ZoneTransfer Module? on agenda for next week, again | 17:59 |
| kiall | That's time :) | 17:59 |
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| vinod | #endmeeting | 17:59 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 17:59 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Apr 9 17:59:43 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 17:59 |
| rjrjr_ | we already resolved it. jmcbride understood why the name. | 17:59 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/designate/2014/designate.2014-04-09-17.00.html | 17:59 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/designate/2014/designate.2014-04-09-17.00.txt | 17:59 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/designate/2014/designate.2014-04-09-17.00.log.html | 17:59 |
| *** esp has joined #openstack-meeting-alt | 18:00 | |
| SlickNik | Thanks vinod, kiall, et al | 18:00 |
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| SlickNik | #startmeeting trove | 18:00 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Apr 9 18:00:49 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is SlickNik. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 18:00 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 18:00 |
| cweid | o/ | 18:00 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: trove)" | 18:00 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'trove' | 18:00 |
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| esp | o/ | 18:00 |
| juice | o/ | 18:01 |
| robertmyers | o/ | 18:01 |
| mattgriffin | o/ | 18:01 |
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| pdmars | hello | 18:01 |
| SlickNik | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings/TroveMeeting | 18:01 |
| cweid | robertmyers: your name is robotmyers. | 18:01 |
| cp16net | o./ | 18:01 |
| esmute | \o/ | 18:01 |
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| amrith | \\o// | 18:01 |
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| k-pom | \o | 18:01 |
| grapex | o/ | 18:01 |
| esp | cweid: lol | 18:01 |
| kevinconway | o/ | 18:01 |
| dougshelley66 | o/ | 18:01 |
| robertmyers | cweid: correct | 18:01 |
| mattgriffin | o/ | 18:01 |
| denis_makogon | o/ | 18:01 |
| esmute | amrith: that was a stretch :-) | 18:01 |
| amcrn | o/ | 18:01 |
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| amrith | esmute: i need a lot of stretching ;) | 18:02 |
| glucas | \o | 18:02 |
| SlickNik | Notes from last meeting: | 18:02 |
| SlickNik | #link http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/trove/2014/trove.2014-04-02-18.01.html | 18:02 |
| *** eanxgeek|log is now known as eanxgeek | 18:02 | |
| SlickNik | Let's get started | 18:02 |
| SlickNik | #topic Refactoring backup/restore strategies | 18:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Refactoring backup/restore strategies (Meeting topic: trove)" | 18:03 | |
| denis_makogon | it's mine | 18:03 |
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| denis_makogon | the point is to collect all strategies in one place | 18:03 |
| vgnbkr | o/ | 18:03 |
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| denis_makogon | it reduces amount of the confi attributes | 18:03 |
| denis_makogon | and keeps code compact | 18:03 |
| amrith | is this a reaction to a specific bug-fix? | 18:04 |
| esp | demorris: got a link? | 18:04 |
| esp | opps | 18:04 |
| esp | denis_makogon: got a link to the bp? | 18:04 |
| denis_makogon | #link https://bugs.launchpad.net/trove/+bug/1287684 | 18:04 |
| esp | thx | 18:04 |
| robertmyers | I'm not sure all impl's should be in the same file | 18:05 |
| denis_makogon | for future possible refactoring and extracting guest code or etc | 18:05 |
| amcrn | agree with robertmyers | 18:05 |
| robertmyers | it makes sense that they are separate | 18:05 |
| SlickNik | denis_makogon: Can you give some concrete examples why this is needed, and what it buys us? | 18:05 |
| SlickNik | +1 robertmyers | 18:05 |
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| amrith | +1 robertmyers | 18:05 |
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| vipul | o/ | 18:05 |
| robertmyers | we should however make it easier to configure | 18:05 |
| denis_makogon | robertmyers, first of all we don't need to pollute config values each time each datastore add support of some kinds of features | 18:05 |
| denis_makogon | backup/restore the exact use case | 18:06 |
| robertmyers | denis_makogon: yes, but consolidating is not the answer | 18:06 |
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| amcrn | the backup strategy conf parameters should be moved under the datastore subheaders (i.e. [mysql], etc.) | 18:06 |
| SlickNik | denis_makogon: That would point to needing some sort of lazy loading of config values. | 18:06 |
| amrith | it strikes me that this is a reaction to the review of 78339 | 18:06 |
| robertmyers | making the config options better, or easier to split up | 18:06 |
| denis_makogon | if we would not store them in one place, we would need to add another one config attr per datastore that reflects the actual place where strategy implemented | 18:07 |
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| denis_makogon | amcrn, why they should be moved ? | 18:07 |
| amcrn | denis_makogon: your comment above just agreed with me | 18:07 |
| robertmyers | personally I think we should tranistion to stevedore for these | 18:07 |
| kevinconway | who is steve? | 18:08 |
| SlickNik | robertmyers: +1 | 18:08 |
| grapex | kevinconway: It's like Steve Holt I think | 18:08 |
| robertmyers | that way you could add your own impl with setup.cfg | 18:08 |
| amcrn | grapex: +100 for AD reference | 18:08 |
| denis_makogon | amcrn, i think we need to store all strategies in impl.py files, thats all | 18:08 |
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| SlickNik | robertmyers: Yes, we need to do some work to transition to installing the guest using setup.cfg before we can do that though. | 18:08 |
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| amcrn | robertmyers: in lieu of that now, i think we're all agreed it should not be in the same file, and given that, the impl should be defined under each optgroup, no? | 18:09 |
| robertmyers | SlickNik: true | 18:09 |
| robertmyers | amcrn: I think so | 18:09 |
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| SlickNik | amcrn: agreed. | 18:10 |
| denis_makogon | so, the the answer is - implement the it another way, just add strategy name space per datastore ? | 18:10 |
| esmute | The thing about making the same file is that it would be hard to be shared with other part of the code. I put a patch to move the storage strategy from the guest to trove common so that the TM can use it for deleting/copy backups | 18:11 |
| esmute | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/c/86242/ | 18:11 |
| kevinconway | i understand that the config parameters were moving into datastore specific sections right? | 18:11 |
| kevinconway | so [mongodb] | 18:11 |
| SlickNik | esmute: I don't think we're moving it into the same file. | 18:11 |
| denis_makogon | kevinconway, i guess yes | 18:12 |
| robertmyers | esmute: we want to split the guest out eventually | 18:12 |
| robertmyers | so less shared code | 18:12 |
| SlickNik | Okay, so that's approaching 15 minutes. | 18:12 |
| esmute | SlickNik: i thought that was what denis_makogon was proposing | 18:12 |
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| esmute | robertmyers: nice :-) | 18:12 |
| SlickNik | I think we're all agreed that we shouldn't have it all in 1 impl file, and that we should have the config opts per datastore. Eventually move to something like stevedore for loading the strategies. | 18:13 |
| denis_makogon | so, what's the actual answer to this topic ? | 18:13 |
| cweid | SlickNik: +1 | 18:14 |
| kevinconway | where can we read more on steve dore? | 18:14 |
| denis_makogon | get it | 18:14 |
| SlickNik | denis_makogon: What's the question? | 18:14 |
| SlickNik | If there are any other clarifications / questions let's bring it up in the channel. | 18:14 |
| grapex | kevinconway: Your local library! | 18:14 |
| grapex | To quote an afterschool special | 18:14 |
| denis_makogon | i heard what i want, so we can move on | 18:15 |
| SlickNik | #topic Moving the docs | 18:15 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Moving the docs (Meeting topic: trove)" | 18:15 | |
| cweid | kevinconway: http://stevedore.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ | 18:15 |
| SlickNik | grapex: yer up | 18:15 |
| grapex | Thanks SlickNik | 18:17 |
| grapex | so at the midcycle meetup we talked of moving the docs from the apidocs repo into the trove repo | 18:17 |
| grapex | So moving this: https://github.com/openstack/database-api to this: https://github.com/openstack/trove | 18:18 |
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| grapex | Basically, we'd take the apidocs directory of the "database-api" repo and move it into the root of Trove | 18:19 |
| grapex | Additionally, maybe we should kill the "openstack-database-api" directory | 18:19 |
| grapex | https://github.com/openstack/database-api/tree/master/openstack-database-api | 18:19 |
| grapex | there's very little in it | 18:19 |
| grapex | So I guess my questions are | 18:19 |
| grapex | 1. since the midcycle meetup, has anyone decided this is a bad idea | 18:20 |
| grapex | and 2. does removing the openstack-database-api directory seem like a bad idea | 18:20 |
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| dougshelley66 | would this info ultimately end up in "openstack-manuals"? | 18:21 |
| esp | grapex: would you leave openstack-database-api around for a bit during the transition or just link it to the new location? | 18:21 |
| grapex | dougshelley66: Yes | 18:21 |
| dougshelley66 | so would that process be owned by Anne G? | 18:22 |
| grapex | esp: We could leave it in the openstack/database-api repo | 18:22 |
| grapex | but I don't think it's being used | 18:22 |
| grapex | the last update was 8 months ago | 18:22 |
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| grapex | dougshelley66: I'd email everyone involved in the docs. She heard this plan at the meetup and was ok with the notion. | 18:22 |
| esp | grapex: k | 18:22 |
| dougshelley66 | grapex: i presume someone would have to do that conversion? | 18:23 |
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| robertmyers | +1 on consolidating docs | 18:23 |
| grapex | dougshelley66: Sure, I can do it. | 18:23 |
| SlickNik | grapex: ajaeger seems to be the most active committer to that database-api repo. I'd make sure to doublecheck with him as well. | 18:23 |
| kevinconway | shouldn't every doc get it's own directory? | 18:23 |
| grapex | SlickNik: I have the email ready to send right now to Andreas | 18:23 |
| dougshelley66 | grapex: i meant the conversion to the format of the rest of the openstack-manuals content? | 18:23 |
| grapex | dougshelley66: Hmm.. I don't know. My guess is we'll see if moving it interferes with anything the doc team wants to do, and if it does we'll hold off or figure out a better plan | 18:24 |
| dougshelley66 | i have no issue with moving it - was just asking the longer term question | 18:25 |
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| SlickNik | grapex: I also think it would be a good idea to check with the doc team and figure out if there's a way for them to consume this so that we don't end up having to duplicate this info in 2 places when they need to produce a docbook. | 18:26 |
| grapex | SlickNik: def | 18:26 |
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| SlickNik | Sweet, any other comments on this? | 18:27 |
| SlickNik | Let's move on. | 18:28 |
| SlickNik | #topic Design Summit Session Proposals | 18:28 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Design Summit Session Proposals (Meeting topic: trove)" | 18:28 | |
| SlickNik | This is everyone. :) | 18:28 |
| SlickNik | Please get your proposals in for the design summit in ATL. | 18:29 |
| SlickNik | #link http://summit.openstack.org/ | 18:29 |
| amrith | don't everybody step forward at the same time | 18:29 |
| denis_makogon | SlickNik, when the deadline for the submitting ? | 18:29 |
| mattgriffin | denis_makogon, the 20th | 18:29 |
| denis_makogon | mattgriffin, hah, my birthday =) | 18:30 |
| denis_makogon | mattgriffin, thanjs | 18:30 |
| mattgriffin | :) | 18:30 |
| denis_makogon | i have some ideas for the design session related to replication use case B | 18:30 |
| SlickNik | hub_cap, the rest of the cores and I are planning on doing a pass to review these early next week (for scheduling) so please try and get them in by end of this week. | 18:31 |
| hub_cap | SlickNik: and i are going to add sessions to address the defecits we have in the integration process | 18:31 |
| annegentle | hey I can circle back on that docs question if you want grapex SlickNik (sorry so late) :) | 18:32 |
| hub_cap | ++ w annegentle | 18:32 |
| SlickNik | That's pretty much all I had for the summit sessions, so yes we can get back to docs. :) | 18:32 |
| SlickNik | #topic Moving the docs | 18:33 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Moving the docs (Meeting topic: trove)" | 18:33 | |
| annegentle | so I was thinking you'd bring database-api into your trove/doc repo | 18:33 |
| annegentle | Andreas has nice JSON validation tests and so on | 18:33 |
| grapex | annegentle: Me too | 18:33 |
| annegentle | go for it! :) | 18:33 |
| grapex | I think we can merge the tox file and add the new targets to the Trove tox file | 18:33 |
| annegentle | grapex: cool | 18:33 |
| grapex | annegentle: I'll be sure to email Andreas still | 18:33 |
| annegentle | that's ideally, really, keep api docs near code | 18:33 |
| grapex | since he hs def. put in the miles on it right now | 18:34 |
| grapex | annegentle: I agree- it will help us tremendously in keeping them up to date | 18:34 |
| annegentle | now the install doc I'm still seeking help on, Laurel is working on it, but the apt package isn't available yet, etc. So it's hard to get going | 18:34 |
| annegentle | the bug is https://bugs.launchpad.net/openstack-manuals/+bug/1304584 | 18:34 |
| annegentle | if you can offer any notes or suggestions or anything, please put it in that bug. | 18:35 |
| grapex | annegentle: Will do | 18:35 |
| annegentle | such as: how to make the VM, what platforms you know it works on, all that good info | 18:36 |
| annegentle | thanks! | 18:36 |
| grapex | annegentle: Thanks Anne! | 18:37 |
| SlickNik | laurelm: If there specific areas that we can look at to help this along, let us know. I'd be happy to put together some info to fill in places where we might have gaps. | 18:37 |
| cp16net | what happened to the that we had some people were working on | 18:37 |
| SlickNik | Thanks annegentle! | 18:37 |
| cp16net | i reviewed it but never saw an update on it | 18:37 |
| SlickNik | Oh you mean this one cp16net: https://review.openstack.org/#/c/85803 | 18:38 |
| cp16net | no... | 18:38 |
| cp16net | that one is new | 18:38 |
| cp16net | SlickNik: this one https://review.openstack.org/#/c/78608/ | 18:39 |
| laurelm | SlickNik: will do | 18:39 |
| annegentle | cp16net: yes that API doc is different from database-api slightly; api-site is a reference listing for end users of the API (think: sdk devs) | 18:39 |
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| annegentle | cp16net: and as for a manual installation guide, we're looking for a chapter that plugs into somethign like http://docs.openstack.org/havana/install-guide/install/apt/content/ | 18:39 |
| annegentle | which we work on across four distros | 18:39 |
| cp16net | ok | 18:39 |
| SlickNik | Anything else to add here? | 18:40 |
| annegentle | cp16net: are you Craig? Cuz your review of https://review.openstack.org/#/c/78608/ is great -- just need that info for four distros in another location is all | 18:40 |
| cp16net | annegentle: yup | 18:40 |
| annegentle | cp16net: kk thought so :) I'm getting good at this IRC mapping | 18:41 |
| cp16net | thats my -1 ;-P | 18:41 |
| annegentle | cp16net: so that looks really nearly there, laurelm all you have to do is convert it to docbook and get it as a chapter in the openstack-manuals install-guide | 18:41 |
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| annegentle | cp16net: laurelm: I could do a first pass if we want, get it into the community faster | 18:41 |
| dougshelley66 | annegentle: that is what we are doing. We went thru that document, clarified some things for laurelm and she is creating the docbook. | 18:42 |
| annegentle | I just hate to do it if laurelm has a head start | 18:42 |
| cp16net | ok i dunno who that was that started that review but it was a good start | 18:42 |
| annegentle | dougshelley66: ok, great! That's it then | 18:42 |
| annegentle | sorted. | 18:42 |
| SlickNik | dougshelley66 / laurelm: Super; I'm not familiar with the docbook format, but I can help with information / editing once we have something out there. | 18:43 |
| dougshelley66 | SlickNik - thx sounds good | 18:43 |
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| SlickNik | Okay, we're good with that. Moving on... | 18:44 |
| annegentle | dougshelley66: yeah the main thing is get it in the repo for reviews as soon as you can, we'll get it better and better | 18:44 |
| SlickNik | #topic Open Discussion | 18:44 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: trove)" | 18:44 | |
| kevinconway | o/ | 18:44 |
| kevinconway | key signing | 18:45 |
| kevinconway | that is all | 18:45 |
| cp16net | i just did that refresh your keys | 18:45 |
| SlickNik | kevinconway: I signed the key! :) | 18:45 |
| SlickNik | key(s) | 18:45 |
| amrith | my key hasn't been signed ;( | 18:45 |
| amrith | only Justin and Andrew did ;( | 18:45 |
| kevinconway | amrith: i must have missed yours. will fix that | 18:46 |
| SlickNik | amrith: I could've sworn I signed yours as well (did I forget to push it back up?) I'll double check. | 18:46 |
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| kevinconway | so that's four of us that are working on it. what about the other 20? | 18:47 |
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| SlickNik | lol kevinconway. The WoT grows slowly. | 18:47 |
| SlickNik | Any other items? | 18:47 |
| SlickNik | btw kevinconway: https://github.com/dreamhost/stevedore | 18:48 |
| SlickNik | If there's nothing else, I'm more than happy to end this early. | 18:48 |
| SlickNik | going, going.... | 18:48 |
| dougshelley66 | +1 | 18:48 |
| grapex | SlickNik: do it, do it, do it... | 18:48 |
| SlickNik | #endmeeting | 18:48 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 18:48 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Apr 9 18:48:57 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 18:49 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/trove/2014/trove.2014-04-09-18.00.html | 18:49 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/trove/2014/trove.2014-04-09-18.00.txt | 18:49 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/trove/2014/trove.2014-04-09-18.00.log.html | 18:49 |
| grapex | \o/ | 18:49 |
| SlickNik | Thanks all. | 18:49 |
| SlickNik | see you in #openstack-trove | 18:49 |
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| mfer | ycombinator are we good to have our meeting in here now? | 19:00 |
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| ycombinator | yes, just waiting on ... there he is | 19:00 |
| samchoi | hello | 19:00 |
| ycombinator | hi | 19:00 |
| mfer | #startmeeting openstack-sdk-php | 19:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Wed Apr 9 19:01:07 2014 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is mfer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 19:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: openstack-sdk-php)" | 19:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'openstack_sdk_php' | 19:01 |
| mfer | #topic State of repo | 19:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "State of repo (Meeting topic: openstack-sdk-php)" | 19:01 | |
| mfer | Can everyone state your names and associations if there is one. | 19:01 |
| mfer | Matt Farina, HP | 19:01 |
| jamie_h | Jamie Hannaford, Rackspace | 19:01 |
| ycombinator | Shaunak Kashyap, Rackspace | 19:02 |
| samchoi | Sam Choi, HP | 19:02 |
| mfer | This meeting is to discuss the state of the repo... | 19:02 |
| glenc | Glen Campbell, Rackspace | 19:02 |
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| jamie_h | shall we start where we left off? | 19:03 |
| mfer | to restate the starting point from earlier.... | 19:03 |
| mfer | "We have an SDK that we contributed to stackforge and altered to be OpenStack rather than HP Cloud. We have a larder codebase than we released because we went all in on OpenStack rather than continuing to drive our own. We wanted to make the needed changes for OpenStack before we added service...." | 19:03 |
| mfer | "For example, there are things like multiple api version support that needed to happen." | 19:03 |
| mfer | that's copied and pasted from the earlier meeting | 19:04 |
| ycombinator | also: "from a general contributor perspective, wouldn't it be easier to start from an empty repo, though?" | 19:04 |
| ycombinator | that was me | 19:05 |
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| ycombinator | and "<jamie_h> yes. no legacy decisions, cleaner code, and it allows members to be included from the very beginning" | 19:05 |
| ycombinator | and " <mfer> i'm curious to know why? many folks prefer to join into an architecture that's already there so add to it or work on needed tasks." | 19:05 |
| mfer | and then we ran out of time | 19:06 |
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| ycombinator | yup | 19:06 |
| ycombinator | so I'll put forth my take | 19:06 |
| ycombinator | to kick us off | 19:06 |
| samchoi | sure, would be good to clear up each individual's thoughts as it's unclear. And we can go over pros/cons of each approach as you noted. | 19:07 |
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| ycombinator | starting with a set of use cases -> blueprints -> reviews against a blank repo seems like the right way to approach the project | 19:07 |
| ycombinator | as opposed to modifying existing code | 19:08 |
| ycombinator | I'd be quite happy if parts of the existing code were "imported" into a blank project as long as a) they matched a blueprint and b) they were reviewed by all of us | 19:09 |
| mfer | ycombinator fyi, i'm waiting to ask questions until you've let me know your complete thought | 19:09 |
| ycombinator | yeah - almost done :) | 19:09 |
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| ycombinator | right now, I confess it feels like I'm having to learn an existing codebase just to have to revise parts of it | 19:10 |
| ycombinator | okay, I'll step down with that for Q&A and for someone else to go | 19:10 |
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| jamie_h | no questions, but i agree with the import idea | 19:11 |
| mfer | ycombinator starting with a blank repo you need to have a base architecture. where does that fit into your use cases -> blueprints -> reviews picture? | 19:12 |
| jamie_h | mfer what do you mean by "base architecture"? | 19:12 |
| jamie_h | as in directory structure? | 19:12 |
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| ycombinator | if my understanding of blueprints are correct, I think thats where it would happen | 19:12 |
| mfer | the software architecture for the codebase. it's more than directories | 19:12 |
| ycombinator | blueprints + wiki, perhaps | 19:12 |
| jamie_h | there's a blueprint for the workspace (directory structure). each service's design is discussed separately | 19:13 |
| ycombinator | (someone please feel free to direct me to how architecture type decisions are made in openstack) | 19:13 |
| mfer | also, what we already have started with the use cases -> tickets -> review process internally. how does resetting the codebase to do that over come into account? | 19:13 |
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| jamie_h | because forcing people to use an existing codebase, which has not been reviewed by others, does not match the standard review process | 19:13 |
| mfer | i do appologize that the current blueprints don't reflect that kind of detail | 19:13 |
| ycombinator | no need mfer, we are all supposed to bear that burden | 19:14 |
| edleafe | ycombinator: Generally blueprint+wiki for each proposed design, followed by discussion in email or IRC | 19:14 |
| mfer | if I understand it, most openstack project were contributed projects not reviewed by others. then others came in to be part of the development process | 19:14 |
| edleafe | …or discussion at a Design Summit ;-) | 19:14 |
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| edleafe | mfer: that was probably only true of Swift | 19:15 |
| edleafe | …since that was already code in production when OpenStack was created | 19:15 |
| jamie_h | i also think we need to make this decision based on the pros and cons, and arrive at a decision best for the project. not based on what other projects did in the past | 19:15 |
| edleafe | Nova went through a *lot* of design reviews | 19:15 |
| edleafe | jamie_h: Agreed; just letting you in on some history | 19:16 |
| edleafe | that's what us old-timers are good for ;-) | 19:16 |
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| jamie_h | ha | 19:16 |
| mfer | edleafe so, Nova was contributed to openstack and then went though reviews? Were the reviews during incubation or at other point in time? | 19:16 |
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| glenc | There were a ton of reviews and a lot of revisions in 2011 when it was getting off the ground | 19:17 |
| edleafe | Nova was originally the nebula project at NASA - lots of good ideas, but written for a particular use case | 19:17 |
| edleafe | e.g., instances were not designed to persist | 19:17 |
| mfer | was it contributed before or after the changes? | 19:17 |
| edleafe | it was used more as a strawman | 19:17 |
| mfer | and was it changed or rewritten from scratch? | 19:17 |
| glenc | (I was on the Nova team at that time). The nebula code was pre-existing, but it wasn't nearly ready. My guess is that very little was kept; most was replaced. | 19:18 |
| edleafe | mostly written from scratch | 19:18 |
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| edleafe | it was too hard to fit into a broader use case that the various parties needed | 19:18 |
| glenc | Sort of used as a template, but much of it wouldn't scale well. | 19:18 |
| mfer | edleafe if it didn't have those issues would so much of it have been rewritten? | 19:18 |
| edleafe | mfer: well, that was the point. The issues existed because it was written for a single use case | 19:19 |
| jamie_h | we have those issues with the current codebase too... | 19:19 |
| edleafe | to make it something that could be the basis of OpenStack Nova, we largely started from scratch | 19:19 |
| jamie_h | it doesn't reflect at all our plans for the transport or service layer, so it really does warrant new code | 19:20 |
| mfer | not exactly, with a minimal amout of work we can change the existing codebase to not have those issues | 19:20 |
| jamie_h | i disagree | 19:20 |
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| jamie_h | it will require more effort and time than writing fresh code | 19:20 |
| jamie_h | and it will probably cause more bugs in the future than a clean slate | 19:20 |
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| jamie_h | plus, you'd have to completely rewrite your tests - which is a nightmare for existing projects | 19:21 |
| edleafe | The general rule is that code talks. If you think something can work, code it and let everyone review it | 19:21 |
| mfer | that's an interesting persepctive. it would likely be more time for you to write the code because you aren't intimately familiar with the existing codebase. i'm already quite familiar with the codebase and coding up the needed changes | 19:21 |
| samchoi | jamie_h: so let's discuss the short term road map. https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/OpenStack-SDK-PHP | 19:21 |
| samchoi | Which requirement(s) would be difficult to fulfill? | 19:22 |
| samchoi | With the current repo | 19:22 |
| mfer | edleafe we have a plan to get where we'd planned on going with tweaks to the existing codebase to meet the wider needs. things i've discussed with others like Jesse Noller, Dean Troyer and other. we've been coding to go there | 19:22 |
| mfer | i'll admit that more of the details could use documentation | 19:22 |
| mfer | earlier today I volunteered to do more of that | 19:22 |
| edleafe | mfer: OK, sounds good. But yeah, docs would be a huge help | 19:23 |
| edleafe | If others don't think the current path will get us there, I would encourage them to likewise document a different approach | 19:24 |
| samchoi | From the road map, I feel that 3, 7, and 8 are quite trivial requirements so maybe out of the other 5 there are issues you all see? | 19:24 |
| mfer | in an email earlier this week I suggested two reasons to start with a fresh repo. 1) There was a technologically superior solution. Something measurable or very obvious that we'd need a clean repo to do. 2) we could get to a release faster while meeting all the requirements. | 19:24 |
| jamie_h | samchoi Mainly the transport and service layer. If you'd like me to draw up a detailed analysis of what will be particularly difficult to implement, I can do so. but the general point still stands: asking 3 people to rewrite your code will take longer, and considerably more effort, than a fresh start | 19:24 |
| mfer | edleafe note, this dicussion isn't around changing the architecture. it's about wiping the codebase and starting from scratch. we are updating the architecture and actively discussing changes. | 19:25 |
| jamie_h | plus the existing codebase is not PSR-2 compliant, there's a reliance on singletons, etc. | 19:25 |
| samchoi | thanks for clarifying | 19:25 |
| edleafe | mfer: Understood | 19:26 |
| ycombinator | in general, its going to take anyone not familiar with the existing codebase longer than those who are | 19:26 |
| jamie_h | and inclusivity is one of our most important goals | 19:26 |
| mfer | jamie_h there is a task for be PSR-2 and and tool to automate that change.... thanks to fabpot. the singleton left has a blueprint to remove which is fairly straight forward | 19:26 |
| jamie_h | reduce barriers for entry, not raise them | 19:26 |
| ycombinator | if we wipe clean and start with blueprints first we ensure that there is an shared understanding as we submit reviews | 19:26 |
| jamie_h | mfer these are two, i agree, incidental points. but it's endemic of the wider issue | 19:26 |
| ycombinator | again, I think its perfectly okay to "import" existing code so as not to lose existing work - as long as its conforms to agreed-upon blueprints which will give all of us a shared understanding of what to expect from the code | 19:27 |
| mfer | jamie_h i've thought a lot about the service layer. i think it's a great idea. i've even mentally worked out how to alter the existing codebase to get things there. i was waiting to see what you'd come up with after our last chat on it. | 19:27 |
| mfer | ycombinator if we start with a new codebase then no one will be familiar with the codebase | 19:28 |
| jamie_h | i agree completely with what shaunak said: i'm not against any existing piece of code, we can re-import so long as everyone gets a fair say over the design | 19:28 |
| jamie_h | mfer but it puts people on level footing | 19:28 |
| jamie_h | and we can quickly iterate over new designs or re-import existing code | 19:28 |
| jamie_h | but there needs to be a fair process | 19:28 |
| mfer | and how does that help progress the project? | 19:28 |
| ycombinator | mfer: what jamie_h said + we would all be agreeing to designs first, which I think is an important step | 19:28 |
| mfer | the goal is to produce a PHP SDK for end users | 19:28 |
| samchoi | I also don't see how that helps with progress | 19:28 |
| jamie_h | it's important for the community and it will make non-HP workflow faster | 19:28 |
| mfer | that's saying that it's for an HP workflow now | 19:29 |
| mfer | and that the current path continues that trend | 19:29 |
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| jamie_h | all i'm saying is that you're familiar with the codebase and we're not | 19:29 |
| mfer | lots of codebases start that way. i've been doing open source a long time. when i approach an existing codebase i always have stuff to learn | 19:30 |
| mfer | i'm not sure how that helps move this along at a good pace | 19:30 |
| edleafe | mfer: True, but OpenStack is a different beast | 19:30 |
| jamie_h | but this is not any other codebase. this is our chance to make a great openstack project | 19:30 |
| mfer | i agree | 19:30 |
| jamie_h | mfer i guarantee you that with a fresh codebase, i'll be committing every single day and we'll gain rapid pace | 19:30 |
| edleafe | I've had to scrap a bunch of working existing code in order to get a community around the Python SDK | 19:31 |
| mfer | edleafe i understand that. i've been spending a lot of time trying to understand the way the community operates | 19:31 |
| mfer | and how to work well in it | 19:31 |
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| edleafe | mfer: yeah, it's not easy. I just want to say "HERE THIS STUFF WORKS! USE IT!", but that wouldn't help in the long run | 19:32 |
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| jamie_h | i really wouldn't suggest a fresh repo if i didn't think it had a lot of positive advantages (for workflow + community engagement) | 19:32 |
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| mfer | it's more like, here's the stuff, it works well, we have a path to make some changes, and we're actively working to get it out to people | 19:33 |
| mfer | jamie_h break that down. how does starting new help the workflow? | 19:33 |
| mfer | put aside the community engagement for a moment | 19:33 |
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| glenc | I think there's a frustration that people aren't able to contribute significantly because they essentially have a learn a new codebase, and one that does not match the target. | 19:34 |
| jamie_h | it speedens up the workflow for every single developer who isn't intimate with the codebase. which, right now, is everybody except HP | 19:34 |
| samchoi | The story behind the initial code that's in stackforge right now is that mfer and another senior engineer created the initial php sdk. I was brought on board in 2012 to add additional services. It took me 2-3 days to understand the code base without much PHP experience at the time. So I don't think what's in stackforge at the moment is too complex for most. | 19:34 |
| edleafe | mfer: I'm approaching it like a new product, but since I've written an SDK before, I know how to avoid lots of the dead ends, and where there be dragons. | 19:35 |
| mfer | a fresh codebase would run the problem of everyone having to learn all of it while we discuss the foundation for it. | 19:35 |
| jamie_h | we're not learning anything with a new codebase. we're creating it. | 19:35 |
| jamie_h | creating it with an approved process of review | 19:35 |
| mfer | we're all laerning what's being created by others | 19:35 |
| jamie_h | but that's the nature of a collaborative project | 19:35 |
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| jamie_h | right now, there's an entire codebase which has not been scrutinised by the openstack community. all i'm saying is that it needs to be. | 19:36 |
| ycombinator | this is a community issue: we would feel much more comfortable starting on level ground with everyone else on the project | 19:36 |
| ycombinator | and right now, thats not the case | 19:37 |
| mfer | i've worked on many collaborative projects. i think the difference here is we asked folks to come collaborate with us on where we are going and actively contributing to. the suggestion is to burn down the village so that everyone can work together to architect and build it. | 19:37 |
| jamie_h | that's your personal choice of metaphor | 19:37 |
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| jamie_h | openstack is about full transparency and equality. having a new codebase does that: it opens everything up for review and puts people on a level footing | 19:38 |
| jamie_h | this is a new, community-driven project: not the continuation of a private codebase. | 19:38 |
| mfer | i'll go back to something edleafe said. he noted that code talks. there have been some good ideas for you fine folks. we've gone and coded them. | 19:38 |
| mfer | and in understand. you don't want to get involved if it's not coded from scratch | 19:39 |
| jamie_h | this is not an argument of principle, there are strong arguments at stake here | 19:39 |
| mfer | i've not seen how this applies to technical problem in teh codebase that cant' be easily overcome | 19:39 |
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| mfer | it seems it's a matter of start clean or you're not going to get started | 19:40 |
| mfer | which is quite different from the nova disucssion/example earlier | 19:40 |
| jamie_h | the technical reason is that a fresh slate offer significantly more freedom to implement agreed-upon designs | 19:40 |
| jamie_h | you're not constrained by legacy (unapproved) decisions | 19:41 |
| ycombinator | its a matter of making everyone feel equally involved from the start | 19:41 |
| glenc | I see the issues are more political than technical. As you said, we can all eventually learn an existing codebase. In the past, companies like Rackspace have gotten trashed for "contributing" a bunch of existing code without involving the community; this is why Solum and the python SDK started off clean, even though we had existing code. | 19:41 |
| ycombinator | right now, by virtue of there being a pre-existing, not-approved-by-all codebase, we are not all equally involved from the start | 19:42 |
| glenc | I suppose we could always go through the existing codebase and submit changes for stuff that doesn't match the desired end state, even to the extent of removing it. That would go through the approval process. Still seems inefficient, but it could work. | 19:42 |
| jamie_h | i don't mind using any of the existing codebase so long as it goes through gerrit first | 19:43 |
| jamie_h | and we all have a say | 19:43 |
| ycombinator | right, that's my "import" suggestion | 19:43 |
| jamie_h | yeah | 19:43 |
| mfer | for me this isn't political but pragmatic. openstack needs some solid SDKs and we're actively working to produce a PHP one. if there is a more technically sound way to do that or a way to get it out there quicker I'm happy so look at that. This is pragmantic to meet the needs of the end users | 19:43 |
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| samchoi | ycombinator: jamie_h so that main argument is that you both need to be equally involved from the start, right? After a few weeks, we would have a codebase similar in size to what's in stackforge right now since it's fairly small. Newer contributors may also come along, but it wouldn't be prudent for them to ask us to scrap the codebase without pragmatic reasons. | 19:44 |
| ycombinator | samchoi: the difference is that by then we'll have a set of blueprints to go with the codebase | 19:45 |
| jamie_h | it's primarily a political and community issue, which can't really be trumped by the premise that going down the "existing codebase" avenue will save us a few hours | 19:45 |
| ycombinator | right now we don't have that | 19:45 |
| mfer | ycombinator we already have a set of blueprints to go with the codebase | 19:45 |
| samchoi | jamie_h: considering where the python sdk is at today, probably more than a few hours ;) | 19:46 |
| jamie_h | samchoi: this is a bigger issue than me and shaunak. it's symbol of a wider need for equality and inclusivity | 19:46 |
| mfer | everyone is equally invited to get involved. | 19:47 |
| mfer | this is different from that | 19:47 |
| jamie_h | not when half of the code has not been reviewed by others | 19:47 |
| jamie_h | sorry, all of the code | 19:48 |
| mfer | others have not taken the time to review the code. they are welcome to come in, file bugs, use it, etc. | 19:48 |
| jamie_h | because the basic premise is flawed: there is extant code in the repo which has not been officially reviewed | 19:48 |
| mfer | why does the openstack infra team have an explicit way to import code for a new project if that's not something that should be done? | 19:48 |
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| mfer | you point the tool at the existing repo and it pulls it in | 19:49 |
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| mfer | since this is being described as a community process issue, I need to do follow-up from outside this group. | 19:50 |
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| mfer | if it's not been articulated enough please feel free to add more details | 19:50 |
| edleafe | mfer: Good idea. Talk to Jesse and Dean about the discussions on these lines we've had on the Python SDK side | 19:51 |
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| jamie_h | so, from my perspective, the follow up strategy needs to be: wipe the codebase and mass import the existing features we want | 19:52 |
| jamie_h | which will go through gerrit and be merged back in the library | 19:52 |
| ycombinator | I'll summarize my thoughts one more time for external follow up | 19:52 |
| ycombinator | we have an opportunity to start with designing in the open (using blueprints) and submitting reviews against these blueprints (which could be imports of existing code) to let all contributors have an equal say from the start | 19:53 |
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| jamie_h | so mfer and samchoi, where do you stand? are you up for having a try at what shaunak suggested? | 19:55 |
| mfer | my stance is i need to do some external follow-up before i have any further stance | 19:56 |
| ycombinator | I think that's fair mfer | 19:57 |
| mfer | is there anything else? | 19:57 |
| ycombinator | could you include us on those follow up conversations as well, please? | 19:57 |
| samchoi | that's fine, will need follow up in any case | 19:57 |
| jamie_h | mfer also, what exactly are you following up? | 19:57 |
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| jamie_h | the process of importing? | 19:58 |
| mfer | ycombinator where appropriate i will. some of this is personal mentors and direction in the community type stuff | 19:58 |
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| ycombinator | mfer: understood | 19:58 |
| ycombinator | thanks | 19:58 |
| mfer | if not before, next week we'll continue this at the normal meeting time. for meeting things that is | 19:58 |
| mfer | emails and side discussions may happen in between. | 19:58 |
| mfer | sound good? | 19:58 |
| jamie_h | i had a question above | 19:58 |
| mfer | you mean on what i'm following up on? | 19:59 |
| jamie_h | yeah, i wasn't 100% sure, sorry | 19:59 |
| mfer | to understand community processes, history, decision making, project context, etc | 19:59 |
| mfer | lots of background on the community angle to this discussion | 19:59 |
| jamie_h | sure, okay. perhaps we could reach out to folks in the openstack community too | 20:00 |
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| jamie_h | so next wednesday is good for everyone? | 20:00 |
| samchoi | Btw, jamie_h ycombinator what are you primary considerations for choosing one approach over another? I can be convinced either way but want to see what everyone's thought process is and their rationale | 20:00 |
| mfer | that's one of the things i'm going to do and have been doing since i released this codebase to the community | 20:01 |
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| jamie_h | awesome, it's definitely an important step before we release any more code | 20:01 |
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| ycombinator | jamie_h I think the wednesday 1530 UTC meeting in openstack-meeting-3 is set for good now | 20:01 |
| samchoi | I think one of the issues is that each individual's criteria for choosing a starting approach is quite different | 20:02 |
| jamie_h | samchoi: i can follow up over e-mail if you'd like. is that okay with you? | 20:02 |
| samchoi | oh certainly, I forgot it's quite late for you | 20:02 |
| samchoi | my apologies jamie_h | 20:02 |
| jamie_h | :) | 20:02 |
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| mfer | the hour is up. i'm not sure if aother meeting is coming in here. | 20:04 |
| mfer | don't want to step on anyone elses toes atain | 20:04 |
| mfer | s/atain/again | 20:04 |
| mfer | if there's nothing else I'll end the meeting to respect everyones time | 20:04 |
| jamie_h | sure, i have nothing else | 20:05 |
| glenc | ok | 20:05 |
| mfer | #endmeeting | 20:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 20:05 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Wed Apr 9 20:05:39 2014 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 20:05 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_sdk_php/2014/openstack_sdk_php.2014-04-09-19.01.html | 20:05 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_sdk_php/2014/openstack_sdk_php.2014-04-09-19.01.txt | 20:05 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/openstack_sdk_php/2014/openstack_sdk_php.2014-04-09-19.01.log.html | 20:05 |
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