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| ttx | dhellmann: o/ | 13:01 |
|---|---|---|
| dhellmann | ttx: o/ | 13:01 |
| ttx | #startmeeting releaseteam | 13:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Fri Jun 5 13:01:13 2015 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is ttx. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 13:01 |
| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 13:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: releaseteam)" | 13:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'releaseteam' | 13:01 |
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| ttx | I'll follow on https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/liberty-release-mgmt | 13:01 |
| ttx | then discuss what we need to do next week if anything | 13:01 |
| dhellmann | is there a ceremony for the the first meeting of a new team? :-) | 13:01 |
| ttx | it involves dancing | 13:01 |
| * dhellmann doesn't dance this early | 13:02 | |
| ttx | #topic Switching release tracking from predicting to reporting | 13:02 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Switching release tracking from predicting to reporting (Meeting topic: releaseteam)" | 13:02 | |
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| ttx | So the ugent items have been taken care of | 13:02 |
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| ttx | In order to be able to generate LP release pages for milestone-following projects at liberty-1 we could use some helper scripts | 13:02 |
| dhellmann | yeah, the rest of those changes look like things we can do soon, but aren't needed immediately | 13:02 |
| ttx | basically to target completed BPs to the miletsone and remove the milestone target from incomplete ones | 13:03 |
| ttx | the same way we do bugs | 13:03 |
| ttx | I'll work on that | 13:03 |
| dhellmann | k | 13:03 |
| ttx | as far as libraries, go we can discuss that later in the meeting | 13:03 |
| ttx | s/,// | 13:04 |
| dhellmann | ok | 13:04 |
| ttx | it's part of a wider discussion on using LP release pages for libraries | 13:04 |
| ttx | dhellmann: anything on that topic ? | 13:04 |
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| dhellmann | no, I think that's all clear for now | 13:04 |
| ttx | #topic New PTL/RelMgt coordination | 13:05 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "New PTL/RelMgt coordination (Meeting topic: releaseteam)" | 13:05 | |
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| ttx | So that was put in place | 13:05 |
| ttx | I think we'll elaborate the checklist using liberty-1 as a test field | 13:05 |
| dhellmann | that sounds good -- I've really only done this for Oslo, and I think we were a special case in a lot of ways, so I'm not sure what you talked about with the other projects | 13:05 |
| ttx | We might need a way to commuinicate that one of us will skip office hours | 13:06 |
| ttx | (example: me on Tuesday) | 13:06 |
| dhellmann | hrm, yes, maybe a wiki page? | 13:06 |
| ttx | maybe I should send an email to list | 13:06 |
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| ttx | that will serve as a reminder that those things exist | 13:06 |
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| dhellmann | makes sense | 13:06 |
| ttx | right + mention it on the wiki page | 13:06 |
| ttx | https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Release_Cycle_Management | 13:07 |
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| ttx | is where we announced them | 13:07 |
| ttx | #action ttx to announce office hours skip on ML and wiki/Release_Cycle_Management | 13:07 |
| ttx | anything else on that topic ? | 13:07 |
| dhellmann | just to clarify, the intent is that each project is required to check in during office hours during the milestone week? or the week leading up to it? | 13:08 |
| ttx | during the milestone week. Basically the Tuesday in the milestone week | 13:08 |
| dhellmann | ok, got it | 13:09 |
| ttx | mostly about making sure our scripts caught the right features | 13:09 |
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| ttx | and getting some understanding on when to push a tag | 13:09 |
| ttx | #topic Server Version Numbering (to enable intermediary releases) | 13:10 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Server Version Numbering (to enable intermediary releases) (Meeting topic: releaseteam)" | 13:10 | |
| dhellmann | so you'll want to run the script before then? | 13:10 |
| ttx | at least a dry run | 13:10 |
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| dhellmann | k | 13:10 |
| ttx | which is why the tool is interesting :) | 13:10 |
| dhellmann | maybe the script should just create and populate the milestone, then, and not close it -- that's easy to do in the web ui, after we review it with the ptl | 13:10 |
| dhellmann | that way we can keep running the script periodically without any impact | 13:11 |
| ttx | dhellmann: ++ | 13:11 |
| ttx | I think we'll invent it as we go | 13:11 |
| dhellmann | well, negative impact | 13:11 |
| ttx | So... on server versioning. I had a few questions on how that new server versioning will happen in practice soon | 13:11 |
| ttx | "Should everyone go to 12 ? Or things that only had 3 releases should go to 4 ?" | 13:11 |
| dhellmann | I left a comment on that just a few minutes ago | 13:12 |
| dhellmann | 3.2.1 | 13:12 |
| ttx | basically I can see how a common version could start getting very confusing when things /start/ to diverge | 13:12 |
| ttx | hmm | 13:13 |
| ttx | I guess the issue is 'at least some projects' | 13:13 |
| dhellmann | if projects are going to want to bump their major version regularly anyway, we could keep that as a "release cycle counter" | 13:13 |
| ttx | I totally see how having multiple liberty projects named 12 is a plus | 13:13 |
| dhellmann | I think it was the nova team who mentioned schema upgrade compatibility as a factor | 13:13 |
| ttx | but if for miyasaki we start seeing 12, 13 and 14, it will be more confusing than having everyone on numebrs that just don't look the same and never did | 13:14 |
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| ttx | people will assume things from numbers that look consistent | 13:14 |
| dhellmann | would we declare major version changes for intermediate releases? | 13:14 |
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| dhellmann | I guess we could, but I didn't really expect it | 13:14 |
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| ttx | probably not | 13:14 |
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| dhellmann | but yeah, I see your point, so maybe we pick a number for each project based on how many releases they have already had | 13:15 |
| dhellmann | and just diverge immediately | 13:15 |
| ttx | my point is... ironic will diverge, and so will have 12.x or 14.x versions when "some" others will have 13.x | 13:15 |
| dhellmann | yeah | 13:15 |
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| ttx | at least if everyone has a different n,umber nobody will infer anything from common versions | 13:16 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I see the logic to that | 13:16 |
| ttx | (which is good, because there won't be anything to infer anymore) | 13:16 |
| ttx | anyway, just food for thoughts | 13:16 |
| ttx | now... "For projects still following the milestone model" | 13:16 |
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| dhellmann | some projects will have the same numbers, but it will be a show of age | 13:16 |
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| ttx | would we use 12.0.0 as a preversion ? i.e. just generate 12.0.0b1 instead of 2015.2.0b1 ? | 13:17 |
| ttx | (at liberty-1) | 13:17 |
| dhellmann | yes, I think we should start using the new versioning immediately | 13:17 |
| dhellmann | with the next tag, that is | 13:17 |
| ttx | so that means pushing 12.0.0 (or whatever) in all setup.cfg that have 2015.2 | 13:18 |
| ttx | for some definition of 'all' | 13:18 |
| ttx | (to be discussed below) | 13:18 |
| ttx | I guess we still have time before l1 to do that | 13:18 |
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| ttx | but that means closig the discussion on the initial number to pick soon enough | 13:18 |
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| dhellmann | for semver, using pre-releases might be more complex than just building versions based on what's in git | 13:19 |
| dhellmann | so at the milestone we could remove the version and then tag 12.0.0b1 or whatever and go with tags after that | 13:19 |
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| ttx | right. Basically we would only use preversion for stuff that follows the time-based milestone model | 13:20 |
| ttx | for intermediary releases we would use post version | 13:20 |
| ttx | fwiw that's how it's done currently for swift (intermediary, post) | 13:21 |
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| dhellmann | well, the time-based releases are still going to be using semver, right? we're just tagging releases less often for them? | 13:21 |
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| ttx | yes. preversion doesn't mean semver-incompatible | 13:22 |
| ttx | it's just a way to support intermediary tags that are not "releases" | 13:22 |
| ttx | so that we can tag milestones and RCs | 13:22 |
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| ttx | Alternative is to stop tagging milestones and RCs | 13:22 |
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| ttx | but I like that those exercise the release machinery in advance of final release | 13:23 |
| ttx | and also lets us publish RC tarballs for testing | 13:23 |
| ttx | for something released every 6 months I think that still has value | 13:23 |
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| dhellmann | ok, I'm not sure I see all of that, but I don't want to bog us down in the meeting | 13:24 |
| ttx | dhellmann: anything else on that topic ? | 13:24 |
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| ttx | dhellmann: I think we just need to agree that the goal for things still using the time based milestone development cycle, is to tag them X.Y.0b1 at liberty-1 | 13:25 |
| ttx | we can evolve our long-term thinking | 13:25 |
| dhellmann | ok, that much I do agree with :-) | 13:25 |
| ttx | ok, next topic | 13:25 |
| ttx | #topic Recentralize library release management | 13:26 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Recentralize library release management (Meeting topic: releaseteam)" | 13:26 | |
| ttx | I read your draft and added a few words | 13:26 |
| dhellmann | I saw | 13:26 |
| ttx | I don't thin kthat needs much work beyond agreement | 13:26 |
| dhellmann | I didn't actually intend for the teams to continue to do their own tagging, but I guess we could do that. | 13:26 |
| ttx | there is the larger discussion at hthe next topic of what we should cover, but we can talk about that next | 13:27 |
| ttx | err, did I say they should still tag ? | 13:27 |
| dhellmann | line 5 | 13:27 |
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| ttx | if I did that was not my intent | 13:27 |
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| dhellmann | ah, you mean the release team | 13:28 |
| dhellmann | ok, I'll add "release" | 13:28 |
| dhellmann | heh | 13:28 |
| ttx | done | 13:28 |
| dhellmann | k, that matches what I was thinking now :-) | 13:28 |
| ttx | no no we should handle the tag. definitely | 13:28 |
| ttx | otherwise we don't change anything | 13:28 |
| dhellmann | right | 13:28 |
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| ttx | so one question I had was... what should we try to do Launchpad-wise, if anything | 13:29 |
| ttx | currently, if I'm not mistaken, we run the bug-closing script ? | 13:29 |
| dhellmann | yes, and release_library.sh creates the milestone if it doesn't exist | 13:30 |
| dhellmann | it actually creates the series, too, as a convenience | 13:30 |
| ttx | what about blueprints/features ? | 13:30 |
| dhellmann | it doesn't handle those, yet | 13:30 |
| ttx | so we are.. tolerating them ? | 13:30 |
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| ttx | but not actively doing anything about them | 13:30 |
| dhellmann | it ignores them completely, right | 13:30 |
| dhellmann | I think it should target any that are marked as implemented and not already targeted | 13:31 |
| ttx | ok, not sure what we should be aiming at there | 13:31 |
| dhellmann | I assume that's similar to what the milestone script does | 13:31 |
| dhellmann | yeah, if the point is to report on what is done, we should include features, too | 13:31 |
| ttx | I guess for library so far the point was: | 13:32 |
| ttx | - to generate a history of versions that let you get a good series-oriented graph | 13:32 |
| ttx | - to close bugs and associate them with a version number where the fix is in | 13:32 |
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| ttx | but the goal wasn't to generate useful milestone pages | 13:32 |
| ttx | (or release page) | 13:33 |
| dhellmann | true, we have the changelog in the docs for the libraries in most cases | 13:33 |
| ttx | this is why we are sloppy on blueprints there -- users don't need to know as much in which version the fix appeared | 13:33 |
| dhellmann | true, end users don't | 13:33 |
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| ttx | so yeah, I'm not sure what our objective should be there | 13:34 |
| dhellmann | I did try to keep up with that by hand for oslo last cycle | 13:34 |
| ttx | currently we have "servers" for which we use the release pages from LP as the changelog | 13:34 |
| dhellmann | it seems easy enough to pick up the completed blueprints and add them to the milestones, no? is there a reason to not do that, to report to the other developers? | 13:35 |
| ttx | and we have libraries where we just clean up LP so that it doesn't look too weird | 13:35 |
| * dims_ peeks | 13:35 | |
| ttx | I think we didn't do that because of the tracking cost, but then that cost is probably limited now that we are just doing tracking rather than prediting | 13:35 |
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| * dhellmann suspects dims has added a watch notifier for "oslo" | 13:35 | |
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| dims_ | dhellmann: yep | 13:36 |
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| dhellmann | right, when I was trying to keep the predictions straight it was a PITA, but now that we're just fixing things up as we release it should be pretty straightforward | 13:36 |
| ttx | dhellmann: how about we try to build more complete release pages by reusing whatever script I'll come up with to support servers | 13:36 |
| ttx | and see how that goes | 13:36 |
| dhellmann | ttx: that's exactly what I was thinking, yes | 13:36 |
| ttx | depending on how fast we move on phabricator we'll have to reconsider anyway | 13:37 |
| ttx | OK, that's a good segway to the enxt topic | 13:37 |
| ttx | #topic Refining release "models" | 13:37 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Refining release "models" (Meeting topic: releaseteam)" | 13:37 | |
| ttx | It's not really a good title | 13:37 |
| ttx | My point here is trying to make sense of the whole thing now. Trying to put things back into buckets | 13:37 |
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| ttx | to satify my organization compulsion | 13:37 |
| ttx | so, trying to define buckets | 13:38 |
| ttx | we have | 13:38 |
| ttx | - Purely independent things (think zuul) | 13:38 |
| ttx | - "Servers" with a $SERIES release at the end of the cycle | 13:38 |
| ttx | (some of them with intermediary releases, some following the milestone/RC model) | 13:38 |
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| ttx | - Libraries: independent, but with a stable branch cut every 6 months | 13:39 |
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| ttx | which I think is a more objective way to look at it than "doing a final release every 6 months") | 13:39 |
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| ttx | but your opinion may vary | 13:39 |
| dhellmann | that seems like a good way to describe it | 13:40 |
| ttx | Now, if we look at it from the angle of "what are we doing tags/announcements for" | 13:40 |
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| ttx | Currently we are "managing" all "Servers" with a $SERIES release at the end of the cycle for which we are on the LP drivers team | 13:41 |
| ttx | that is a subset of them | 13:41 |
| ttx | for example MagnetoDB we can't "manage" right now because we aren't in their drivers team | 13:41 |
| ttx | should we fix that ? | 13:41 |
| ttx | I think that would remove one special case if we did | 13:41 |
| dhellmann | I guess the question is, does being an official project come with optional release management or with required release management? | 13:42 |
| ttx | I woud put it slightly differently | 13:42 |
| dhellmann | we've said for other cross-project teams that the cp team can decide which projects to work on directly vs. which to work on with a liaison | 13:43 |
| ttx | If a project doesn't want us to do its release management, we could consider it's in the "independent" bucket | 13:43 |
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| ttx | I think the moment they want a stable branch though... they need us | 13:43 |
| dhellmann | how independent? do we still include them in status.openstack.org/release? | 13:43 |
| ttx | the question is also "should we offer to manage any project" | 13:44 |
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| ttx | currently we aren't including them on the status page | 13:44 |
| ttx | see ? I'm trying to define the territory here | 13:44 |
| ttx | from emergent properties of the model | 13:44 |
| dhellmann | I'm a bit more comfortable letting milestone-release projects handle a lot more of the work themselves than I am for projects doing intermediate semver releases, because it's easy to get the semver wrong or release something at a bad time | 13:45 |
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| dhellmann | at least until we have more people with practice doing the intermediate releases | 13:45 |
| ttx | should we just consider them case-by-case ? | 13:46 |
| dhellmann | so are you proposing that projects that want stable branches and reporting should let us manage that? and does that mean us doing it, or us guiding their liaison? | 13:46 |
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| ttx | I'm trying to determine where we stop | 13:47 |
| ttx | and how to record that somewhere | 13:47 |
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| dhellmann | we could use a tag in the governance repo to record it | 13:47 |
| ttx | Do we need to be involved if they do stable branches ? | 13:47 |
| dhellmann | not necessarily | 13:47 |
| dhellmann | really, the scheduling of the releases is the trigger for me | 13:48 |
| dhellmann | if they're on a 6 month schedule, I think it's safe to guide the liaison via documentation and help on irc | 13:48 |
| dhellmann | if they're not, I think we should do it ourselves until we get it automated | 13:48 |
| dhellmann | maybe your experience with the liaisons last cycle gives you a different opinion, though? | 13:49 |
| ttx | I'd say that for the same reason PTLs get semver wrong, they get PEP440-compliant versioning wrong too | 13:49 |
| dhellmann | hmm, ok | 13:50 |
| ttx | especially the subtleties of 2015.2.0b1 instead of 2015.2.b1 or 2015.2b1 or 2015.2.0.b1 | 13:50 |
| dhellmann | yeah, that's a good point | 13:50 |
| ttx | so I think we need to own the tag | 13:50 |
| dhellmann | ok, so does my email need to change to be about all projects? | 13:51 |
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| ttx | one fight at a time | 13:51 |
| dhellmann | ++ | 13:51 |
| ttx | today's fight is more to convince PTLs where we already to tagging for their main stuff to give us libraries back | 13:51 |
| ttx | s/to/do | 13:51 |
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| ttx | tomorrow's fight (which I'm not sure we should do) is to go beyond the old set of integrated release and incubated | 13:52 |
| dhellmann | ok, let's keep those conversations separate then | 13:52 |
| ttx | which needs to be bigtented | 13:52 |
| dhellmann | if we get this automated properly, it shouldn't actually be that much more work to approve tags for everything | 13:52 |
| ttx | So I'd say it needs to be opt-in for projects, and we need to be comfortable with the addition | 13:53 |
| ttx | we can start the "managed" set using the old integrated+incubated | 13:53 |
| dhellmann | and if they want to continue to do it, we can verify their version numbers if they ask? | 13:53 |
| ttx | sure | 13:54 |
| dhellmann | I think that's a good way to handle it for now | 13:54 |
| ttx | as far as trafcking goes we do tracking only for managed stuff | 13:54 |
| ttx | which leads to the next question | 13:54 |
| dhellmann | do we need to define a tag for the governance repo to indicate release-managed or something? | 13:54 |
| ttx | right. that is what I kind of wanted to avoid by aligning us with an already-existing bucket | 13:55 |
| ttx | like "it has stable branches" | 13:55 |
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| ttx | also don't want it to become a new badge | 13:55 |
| dhellmann | ah, I see | 13:56 |
| ttx | basically we need to simplify the process faster than we add new projects | 13:56 |
| dhellmann | right | 13:56 |
| ttx | interesting challenge | 13:56 |
| dhellmann | so let's not add a tag, and just keep track of a list ourselves somewhere for now | 13:56 |
| ttx | the next question is whether we need to special-case servers | 13:56 |
| ttx | vs. libraries | 13:56 |
| ttx | currently we have that distinction in language (API servers, main deliverables, etc) | 13:57 |
| ttx | but that doesn't exist in projects.yaml | 13:57 |
| ttx | or anywhere else | 13:57 |
| ttx | to map it to repositories | 13:57 |
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| dhellmann | what are you considering as a reason for needing to distinguish between them? knowing which script to run? | 13:58 |
| ttx | I guess if we track all the "managed" work (included libraries as we handle tags for them) distinguishing netween libraries and servers is less needed | 13:58 |
| ttx | I was trying to justify what ends up on the list of tracked things in that page | 13:59 |
| dhellmann | and servers that have intermediate releases are sort of acting more like libraries in that sense, so those can probably use the same tools already | 13:59 |
| dhellmann | change release_library.sh to release_semver.sh | 13:59 |
| ttx | http://git.openstack.org/cgit/openstack-infra/puppet-releasestatus/commit/?id=f0d4a344aaa6dfbf55457d42ad9b065d79bc4d40 | 13:59 |
| ttx | I had a hard time coming up with that list yesterday, which is the cause for all those questions | 14:00 |
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| ttx | I ended up with "all servers we actually handle" | 14:00 |
| ttx | which was a bit fuzzy | 14:00 |
| dhellmann | we should start adding the libraries, too, I think. We have to start communicating better about things like deprecated options defined in libraries. | 14:00 |
| dhellmann | config options, that is | 14:00 |
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| ttx | OK, so maybe I should just not distinguish between servers and libs in my initial bucket up there | 14:01 |
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| dhellmann | also things like the qpid driver being deprecated | 14:01 |
| dhellmann | yeah, anything we manage seems like fair game to be added there | 14:01 |
| ttx | the only thing that makes them different from intermediuary-released servers beiung the way we use LP pages | 14:02 |
| ttx | and we could converge there | 14:02 |
| ttx | heck we could even upload a tarball | 14:02 |
| dhellmann | yeah, I think we probably should | 14:02 |
| dhellmann | (converge) | 14:02 |
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| ttx | ok, I think we have food for thoughts and our hour is finished | 14:03 |
| dhellmann | ok | 14:03 |
| ttx | let's go back to our secret lair and see how next week looks like | 14:03 |
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| dhellmann | heh, sounds good | 14:03 |
| ttx | #endmeeting | 14:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Vancouver Design Summit (Meeting topic: barbican)" | 14:03 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Fri Jun 5 14:03:26 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 14:03 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/releaseteam/2015/releaseteam.2015-06-05-13.01.html | 14:03 |
| dhellmann | have a good trip next week | 14:03 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/releaseteam/2015/releaseteam.2015-06-05-13.01.txt | 14:03 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/releaseteam/2015/releaseteam.2015-06-05-13.01.log.html | 14:03 |
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