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| hongbin | Hi, we are going to start the higgins meeting here | 03:00 |
|---|---|---|
| sheel | hi | 03:01 |
| haiwei_ | hi | 03:01 |
| yanyanhu | o/ | 03:01 |
| hongbin | #startmeeting higgins | 03:01 |
| openstack | Meeting started Fri May 13 03:01:17 2016 UTC and is due to finish in 60 minutes. The chair is hongbin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. | 03:01 |
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| openstack | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. | 03:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to " (Meeting topic: higgins)" | 03:01 | |
| openstack | The meeting name has been set to 'higgins' | 03:01 |
| hongbin | #link https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Higgins#Agenda_for_2016-05-13_0300_UTC Today's agenda | 03:01 |
| harlowja_at_home | yo yo | 03:01 |
| dims | o/ | 03:01 |
| hongbin | #topic Roll Call | 03:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Roll Call (Meeting topic: higgins)" | 03:01 | |
| mkrai | Madhuri Kumari | 03:01 |
| Qiming_ | o. | 03:01 |
| yuanying_ | o/ | 03:01 |
| harlowja_at_home | U can call me Mr. Josh | 03:01 |
| hongbin | Hongbin Lu | 03:01 |
| Qiming_ | Mr. Josh, hi | 03:01 |
| harlowja_at_home | lol | 03:01 |
| shu-mutou | o/ | 03:01 |
| dims | Dims | 03:01 |
| sheel | Sheel Rana | 03:01 |
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| hongbin | Pause a few minutes for other potential attendees | 03:02 |
| * harlowja_at_home holds my horses | 03:03 | |
| * Qiming_ selling tickets at the door | 03:03 | |
| hongbin | haha | 03:03 |
| hongbin | #topic Welcome | 03:03 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Welcome (Meeting topic: higgins)" | 03:03 | |
| yanyanhu | we also need beverage :) | 03:03 |
| hongbin | Welcome to join the first Higgins team meeting. | 03:03 |
| hongbin | The purpose of this meeting is to collect requirements from everyone and drive consensus on the project roadmap. | 03:03 |
| hongbin | Thanks everyone for coming today to discuss the existing project with us. | 03:04 |
| sheel | thanks hongbin for setting this all | 03:04 |
| hongbin | #topic Introductions | 03:04 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Introductions (Meeting topic: higgins)" | 03:04 | |
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| hongbin | In this section, I'd like to give everyone an opportunity to introduce themselves, and say what you work on and why you interest in the Higgins project. | 03:04 |
| hongbin | I can start first. | 03:04 |
| hongbin | My name is Hongbin Lu. I works for Huawei Canada, and I am the current Magnum PTL. | 03:04 |
| hongbin | I want an OpenStack Container service that is integrable with different container technologies. | 03:05 |
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| hongbin | My role here is providing helps to create a new team (DONE), and then pass the responsibility to the new team. | 03:05 |
| hongbin | That is all from me. Who would like to go next? | 03:05 |
| sheel | Ok, I am Sheel Rana | 03:05 |
| sheel | currently works with Cinder and Nova teams | 03:05 |
| sheel | from NEC India | 03:05 |
| mkrai | Madhuri Kumari, Magnum Core. I work with Intel, India. | 03:06 |
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| harlowja_at_home | I'm josh, current oslo ptl, core on many different things (in and outside of openstack), created multiple libraries used in different places, working at godaddy (previously yahoo), been in openstack for like 5 years, we are looking into the kube <-> openstack kind of integration but are also (personally and as a company interested in the general area here and ... TBD ... | 03:06 |
| harlowja_at_home | I think therefore I am | 03:07 |
| harlowja_at_home | and thats me | 03:07 |
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| mkrai | I have been working on containers for an year or so. So interested in enabling containers on Openstack. That's all from me | 03:07 |
| hongbin | Thanks. Next? | 03:08 |
| Qiming_ | Qiming Teng, IBM, senlin PTL, heat core, based in Beijing, China | 03:08 |
| dims | My nick name is Dims, just listening in. have helped with some related projects before. | 03:08 |
| harlowja_at_home | dims, u are more than that! | 03:08 |
| Qiming_ | looking for a generalized abstraction of containers on openstack, so containers can be treated as first-class-citizen someday | 03:08 |
| harlowja_at_home | :) | 03:08 |
| haiwei_ | I am xuhaiwei, from NEC, currently core of Senlin project, also focus on NFV | 03:08 |
| dims | :) | 03:08 |
| yanyanhu | I'm Yanyan Hu, from IBM China research lab, the same as Qiming. I'm from Senlin team. I also have worked on Mesos/Marathon scalability study for about half year. | 03:09 |
| Namrata_ | Namrata Sitlani based in India an individual contibutor. | 03:09 |
| hongbin | Cool | 03:09 |
| shu-mutou | I'm Shu Muto, Magnum-UI core, from NEC. I'd like to implement UI for Higgins. Thanks. | 03:09 |
| haiwei_ | UI man | 03:09 |
| sheel | 👍 | 03:10 |
| yuanying_ | I am OTSUKA, Yuanying from NEC. I want to use container technology without managing a lot of things. | 03:10 |
| yanyanhu | :) | 03:10 |
| hongbin | Seems that is all for everyone | 03:11 |
| hongbin | #topic Announcements | 03:11 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Announcements (Meeting topic: higgins)" | 03:11 | |
| mkrai | Welcome everyone:) | 03:11 |
| hongbin | #link https://review.openstack.org/#/admin/groups/1382,members Initial Higgins core team | 03:11 |
| hongbin | The core team was created based on expressed interest in the etherpad | 03:11 |
| sheel | fair enough | 03:11 |
| hongbin | Anyone else want to join the core team? (or be removed) | 03:12 |
| * harlowja_at_home i can't say yet, perhaps in the future | 03:12 | |
| harlowja_at_home | need to see what this turns into first :-P | 03:12 |
| hongbin | harlowja_at_home: ack | 03:12 |
| hongbin | #topic Drive consensus on requirements | 03:12 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Drive consensus on requirements (Meeting topic: higgins)" | 03:12 | |
| hongbin | #link https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/container-management-service etherpad for collaborating on project requirements | 03:12 |
| hongbin | In this section, I have the etherpad to record our requirements. | 03:13 |
| hongbin | I will pause for a while to let everyone write down your opinions in the etherpad. | 03:13 |
| mkrai | hongbin, Before we start I have some concerns. | 03:13 |
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| hongbin | mkrai: go ahead | 03:14 |
| mkrai | Is openstack community accepting this project? | 03:14 |
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| mkrai | We have nova-docker also | 03:14 |
| dims | mkrai : this is under big tent, we have all access as much as other projects | 03:14 |
| harlowja_at_home | what means accepting in your mind mkrai ? | 03:14 |
| yanyanhu | mkrai, the project has been accepted :) | 03:14 |
| hongbin | Not for big tent yet | 03:15 |
| hongbin | We need to have a working history to meet the 4 opens | 03:15 |
| mkrai | Yes agree about that | 03:15 |
| hongbin | Then, we are able to join the big tent | 03:15 |
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| hongbin | mkrai: any other concern? | 03:16 |
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| hongbin | From the comments on etherpad, it looks there is an argument about the scope of the project | 03:17 |
| mkrai | No let's just kickstart things | 03:17 |
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| hongbin | Therefore, I summarize the proposed scopes in the last session | 03:17 |
| hongbin | Obviously, there are many proposed ideas. It seems we cannot statisfy all of them | 03:18 |
| hongbin | I am thinking if we could have everyone vote on the list | 03:19 |
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| harlowja_at_home | seems like there are as many ideas as people :-P | 03:19 |
| harlowja_at_home | 1 vote for each, lol | 03:19 |
| hongbin | harlowja_at_home: yes. That is allowed.... | 03:20 |
| harlowja_at_home | k | 03:20 |
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| Qiming_ | I'm not gonna vote for Trump | 03:20 |
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| yanyanhu | lol | 03:21 |
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| dims | question is where do we start | 03:21 |
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| vivek_ | Hi hongbin. I am Vivek Jain an Individual contributor from India. I am also interested in working on Higgins UI. | 03:21 |
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| hongbin | vivek_: hey | 03:22 |
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| hongbin | vivek_: welcome | 03:22 |
| vivek_ | hongbin: Thanks:) | 03:22 |
| hongbin | vivek_: We are working on the etherpad | 03:22 |
| hongbin | vivek_: https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/container-management-service | 03:22 |
| vivek_ | Thanks hongbin | 03:22 |
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| sheel | hongbin: here i would like to ask on etherpad query - line 9 : what is being abstracted? | 03:27 |
| dims | here's looks like we are heading to consensus on initial tasks | 03:27 |
| hongbin | sheel: The initial proposal is to abstract containers | 03:27 |
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| sheel | hongbin: ok | 03:28 |
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| hongbin | dims: Yes, some items get most votes, which is the good canadidate for initial implementation | 03:29 |
| dims | wearing my TC Hat, we should NOT compete with container frameworks like Mesos or Kubernetes | 03:30 |
| dims | over time may be, we should not start there | 03:30 |
| harlowja_at_home | +1 | 03:31 |
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| harlowja_at_home | that's why i still like the docker-compose-like thing still, but idk | 03:31 |
| dims | this came up in the board/tc meeting fyi - https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/6PuSKyUOHk | 03:31 |
| harlowja_at_home | holy crap | 03:32 |
| dims | we need to co-exist and cooperate with others frameworks and foundations..not take over | 03:32 |
| dims | if we do container composition, we should schedule to swarm, kubernetes, mesos etc. for example | 03:33 |
| harlowja_at_home | that'd be fine with me (internal impl detail imho) | 03:34 |
| hongbin | dims: you concern is the pod things? | 03:34 |
| dims | hongbin : passing alone what was discussed whether i agree or not :) | 03:35 |
| hongbin | dims: Or I might ask which proposed ideas that make you feel we are competing with COEs? | 03:35 |
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| dims | s/alone/along/ | 03:36 |
| hongbin | My feeling is that if we focus on abstracting different container technology, we won't compete with COEs | 03:36 |
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| hongbin | But if we want advanced features, like rolling upgrade, etc. then we are at risk | 03:37 |
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| yanyanhu | +1 | 03:37 |
| dims | hongbin : yep | 03:37 |
| Qiming_ | dims, could you pls shed us some lights on " we should NOT compete with container frameworks like Mesos or Kubernetes", why is that a big concern? | 03:38 |
| gus | .. except the COEs do not offer identical features .. so are you proposing 3 (at least) different "container-ish things" that you can create? | 03:38 |
| gus | .. or a lowest common denominator? | 03:38 |
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| hongbin | OK. It looks everyone finishes writing? | 03:39 |
| dims | Qiming_ : long conversation will need folks like ttx and mordred about how to be a good citizen in the overall eco system | 03:40 |
| dims | hey gus ! | 03:40 |
| Qiming_ | I see | 03:40 |
| * gus stumbled into this meeting purely by accident | 03:40 | |
| gus | ;) | 03:40 |
| harlowja_at_home | i'm a law-abiding citizen | 03:40 |
| harlowja_at_home | and also good | 03:40 |
| dims | Qiming_ : let me dig some info when i get a chance | 03:40 |
| hongbin | From the etherpad, it looks most people like this idea: Basic container operations (i.e. CRUD) | 03:41 |
| sheel | 👍 | 03:41 |
| Qiming_ | yep, that is the core of the project | 03:41 |
| yanyanhu | +1 | 03:41 |
| hongbin | I would suggest we start with that | 03:41 |
| mkrai | Yeah +1 | 03:42 |
| mkrai | With docker intially? | 03:42 |
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| haiwei_ | yes | 03:42 |
| yanyanhu | agree | 03:42 |
| sheel | +1 | 03:42 |
| hongbin | Sounds good | 03:42 |
| flwang | hongbin: i'm interested in the relationship between magnum and higgins | 03:42 |
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| vivek_ | +1 | 03:42 |
| dims | +1 | 03:42 |
| hongbin | flwang: you have specific question? | 03:43 |
| flwang | that would be the 1st line of FAQ | 03:43 |
| hongbin | flwang: sure I can fill that | 03:43 |
| flwang | hongbin: since if we have Higgins, Heat can talk with Higgins directly | 03:43 |
| hongbin | #action hongbin fill FAQ to explain the relationship between Magnum and Higgins | 03:44 |
| flwang | hongbin: thanks :) | 03:44 |
| dims | fyi, at https://github.com/dims/mincntr/tree/master/mincntr i have list and create operations for docker and k8s if we want to start there | 03:44 |
| hongbin | flwang: Yes, Higgins should be independent of Magnum, with an option to integrate with Magnum | 03:44 |
| dims | i maintain the python-k8sclient repo as well along with the magnum team | 03:44 |
| hongbin | flwang: (that is my person oponions) | 03:44 |
| hongbin | dims: thx | 03:45 |
| mkrai | hongbin, mine too. Higgins should be independent of Magnum. | 03:45 |
| flwang | dims: will the Higgins have to recreate all the wheels of Nova did? | 03:45 |
| hongbin | #link https://github.com/dims/mincntr/tree/master/mincntr | 03:45 |
| dims | flwang no. it will be a proxy/pass-through | 03:45 |
| hongbin | We should avoid to duplicate with any other OpenStack project | 03:46 |
| flwang | dims: like a client? instead of a service? | 03:46 |
| hongbin | flwang: My understanding is like Ironic for baremetal | 03:46 |
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| dims | flwang . higgins CLI -> higgins REST API -> higgins API -> calls Docker API or K8S API | 03:47 |
| harlowja_at_home | hmmmm, durn, i'd have liked a the docker-compose-like-service; aka, here is my docker-compose like yaml, go higgins make it happen (and user is done) | 03:47 |
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| dims | we start there | 03:47 |
| sheel | dims: +1 | 03:47 |
| dims | harlowja_at_home : yep, that will call the higgins REST API | 03:47 |
| gus | dims: In which case do we use magnum to provide the k8s api? | 03:48 |
| dims | docker-compose-like-service can call higgins REST API | 03:48 |
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| dims | gus : this should work against k8s whether or not deployed by Magnum | 03:48 |
| mkrai | gus, We are removing all container related API from Magnum | 03:48 |
| gus | In particular: what's the proposed strategy for multi-tenancy? | 03:48 |
| harlowja_at_home | imho higgins would be the receiver of that yaml (and it would figure out how to do all the things) :-P | 03:48 |
| harlowja_at_home | (but i do see the value of primitives and getting them working right) | 03:48 |
| dims | harlowja_at_home : that's do able too. once we get past CRUD | 03:49 |
| dims | y, stage 2 | 03:49 |
| flwang | dims: cool | 03:49 |
| gus | so again: multi-tenancy. k8s doesn't provide strongly isolated containers. | 03:49 |
| hongbin | gus: There are two types of container (Clear Container/Hyper like, docker like). They might have differnet multi-tenancy strategy | 03:49 |
| harlowja_at_home | i guess gus do we want to aim for the now, or for 6 months from now | 03:49 |
| hongbin | #topic Open Discussion | 03:50 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "Open Discussion (Meeting topic: higgins)" | 03:50 | |
| mkrai | I have heard that Kuryr provides multi-tenancy | 03:50 |
| gus | well, if we're planning to build on k8s, then we might consider having "multiple" k8s APIs, for each tenant. This is basically what magnum provides. | 03:50 |
| harlowja_at_home | so depends on what variant of multi-tenancy that means :-P | 03:50 |
| gus | mkrai: kuryr is only network (at least for now). | 03:50 |
| dims | so, who has time for actual work? :) | 03:50 |
| harlowja_at_home | dims, i thought u had it all done already | 03:51 |
| baohua | yes, kuryr guy here | 03:51 |
| flwang | harlowja_at_home: +1 :) | 03:51 |
| sheel | dims: i am in | 03:51 |
| flwang | dims: count me | 03:51 |
| mkrai | me too | 03:51 |
| yuanying_ | dims: me too | 03:51 |
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| hongbin | I will part-time contribute (full-time on Magnum) | 03:51 |
| baohua | +1 in part-time | 03:52 |
| haiwei_ | part-time for me | 03:52 |
| sheel | full time for me | 03:52 |
| vivek_ | I am in | 03:52 |
| yuanying_ | 50% | 03:52 |
| dims | usual problem i see is (example kolla-k8s) is folks are very interested but have current obligations. hence the ask :) | 03:52 |
| harlowja_at_home | to me thats in part why the API would be a docker-compose-like-thing vs the primitives, because u can basically say for v1 of this system, it will not be hardened multi-tenancy, but in the future u can just change out the backend implementation with one that is more hardened for multi-tenancy | 03:52 |
| Namrata_ | count me | 03:52 |
| dims | very cool! | 03:52 |
| yanyanhu | count me as well, although maybe not fulltime | 03:52 |
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| mkrai | Seems we have lots of contributor | 03:53 |
| dims | looks like we can get cranking immediately | 03:53 |
| harlowja_at_home | i can write some comments and such | 03:53 |
| chandankumar | \o/ | 03:53 |
| hongbin | chandankumar: hey | 03:53 |
| sheel | yes we can | 03:53 |
| chandankumar | hongbin, Hello | 03:53 |
| gus | harlowja_at_home: I think you're underestimating the differences between COEs (and rkt vs docker, etc) | 03:53 |
| sheel | chandankumar: hi | 03:53 |
| hongbin | chandankumar: we are in open discussion | 03:53 |
| harlowja_at_home | gus, well who said anything that the docker-compose-like-yaml would have to target them all initially ;) | 03:54 |
| chandankumar | hongbin, i will take a look at the meeting minutes. | 03:54 |
| hongbin | chandankumar: you can relay your inputs to https://etherpad.openstack.org/p/container-management-service later if you want | 03:54 |
| chandankumar | sure | 03:54 |
| mkrai | hongbin, How are we gonna distribute tasks? | 03:54 |
| gus | just saying, fundamental things like pods and the network environment exposed to containers varies *greatly* between all the different things out there. | 03:54 |
| hongbin | mkrai: use BP :) | 03:55 |
| mkrai | I am afraid people might spend time working on same thing | 03:55 |
| dims | +1 to BP | 03:55 |
| Qiming_ | gus +1 | 03:55 |
| mkrai | Works for me | 03:55 |
| dims | mkrai : we can start weekly meetings to figure out who is doing what too right? | 03:55 |
| chandankumar | BP will be a better option | 03:56 |
| hongbin | Yes, the weekly meeting | 03:56 |
| mkrai | Yes dims | 03:56 |
| mkrai | hongbin, let's book a weekly slot for us | 03:56 |
| gus | So .. what's a use-case for this project? | 03:56 |
| harlowja_at_home | gus fair enough, let's see where stage1 here goes, maybe the more advanced thing is stage2, idk | 03:56 |
| sheel | we are about to running out of time...3 more minutes left | 03:56 |
| hongbin | Everyone want a weekly meeting? | 03:56 |
| Qiming_ | I usually don't attend meetings at 3am | 03:57 |
| sheel | hongbin: yes | 03:57 |
| hongbin | #action hongbin schedule a weekly meeting for Higgins | 03:57 |
| dims | Qiming_ : almost midnight for me and hongbin | 03:57 |
| gus | I see a whole lot of desired buzz words on the etherpad, but not any suggestion of what this offers to an end user. | 03:57 |
| hongbin | I am thinking if we should have an alternate meeting biweekly | 03:57 |
| Qiming_ | try doodle then, :) | 03:57 |
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| harlowja_at_home | gus agreed | 03:57 |
| hongbin | OK. Doodle will work | 03:58 |
| sheel | gus +1 | 03:58 |
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| dims | gus : it started from folks like trove wanting to use a single api to talk to anything deployed by magnum | 03:58 |
| hongbin | gus: It offers a container abstraction backed by different container tech | 03:58 |
| gus | .. and remember that the alternative that we need to compare ourselves against is doing something like a coreos VM with a few containers started via cloud-init. | 03:58 |
| harlowja_at_home | go cloud-init! | 03:59 |
| dims | gus : yep | 03:59 |
| harlowja_at_home | lol | 03:59 |
| gus | .. or just using the native k8s / swarm / mesos API directly. | 03:59 |
| gus | I'm struggling to see what sort of user wouldn't already be satisfied with one of those. | 03:59 |
| dims | trove will need 3 impls for same tasks...yes | 03:59 |
| Qiming_ | if people prefer k8s, then they should go k8s->magnum->openstack | 04:00 |
| harlowja_at_home | orrrrr this group can focus on the k8s<->openstack integration parts | 04:00 |
| harlowja_at_home | https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/kubernetes-sig-openstack ;) | 04:00 |
| hongbin | OK, time is up | 04:01 |
| Qiming_ | thanks for the link, harlowja_at_home | 04:01 |
| harlowja_at_home | np | 04:01 |
| dims | harlowja_at_home : ha. nice try | 04:01 |
| hongbin | All, thanks for joining hte meeting | 04:01 |
| harlowja_at_home | dims, shhhh | 04:01 |
| harlowja_at_home | lol | 04:01 |
| mkrai | Thanks everyone! | 04:01 |
| gus | dims: re the trove use case - they aren't going to get that. If you want to install a multi-node (aka reliable) database then you need to configure your job differently for the different COEs in order to reach your peer servers. | 04:01 |
| sheel | thanks | 04:01 |
| hongbin | #endmeeting | 04:01 |
| *** openstack changes topic to "OpenStack Meetings || https://wiki.openstack.org/wiki/Meetings" | 04:01 | |
| openstack | Meeting ended Fri May 13 04:01:28 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) | 04:01 |
| openstack | Minutes: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/higgins/2016/higgins.2016-05-13-03.01.html | 04:01 |
| openstack | Minutes (text): http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/higgins/2016/higgins.2016-05-13-03.01.txt | 04:01 |
| openstack | Log: http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/higgins/2016/higgins.2016-05-13-03.01.log.html | 04:01 |
| dims | gus : we need to figure out a bunch of things for sure :) | 04:02 |
| * gus is pushing for being opinionated and just picking a container model over trying to support everything and being lowest-common-denominator, in case that wasn't clear ;) | 04:03 | |
| harlowja_at_home | i snuck it in at the end, lol | 04:03 |
| harlowja_at_home | (or one version of that, lol) | 04:03 |
| flwang | harlowja_at_home: you're not alone :D | 04:04 |
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| harlowja_at_home | but i'm gonna have a hard time giving up something like https://github.com/msanand/docker-workflow/blob/master/docker-compose.yml as a input api (even if its a hard goal) | 04:05 |
| harlowja_at_home | or https://github.com/b00giZm/docker-compose-nodejs-examples/blob/master/05-nginx-express-redis-nodemon/docker-compose.yml (or many more) :-P | 04:05 |
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